Alrighty then. First of all I understand my magnificent sense of humor has been kind of off-putting to you. I do apologize.
As a result I will try to keep matters as formal as possible in this post. However I am afraid I will have to do you the discourtesy of not replying directly to what you posted. My excuse is that I have grasped much of your standpoint. So instead of going back and forth on how I am right and you are wrong, and vice-versa, I will try to explain to you my standpoint and why item-selling stores won't be the end of D3.
Before we proceed, let's consider this famous statement made by this famous person-
Half a game is defined as how the creators designed it and the other half how the players will approach it.
-Nekrodrac
Item selling has been around since D2 and it has been a reasonably successful and lucrative business albeit illegal. From here, we have identified that a market exists for this type of transaction.
Now while it is easy to jump the gun and cry- cheaters!, let's examine the following scenario-
This is entirely from my experience, though I'm hoping that when others read this, they will support this case with their own stories.
This is my gaming post patch 1.10 on D2 lord of destruction: I have leveled between 7-8 toons to level 75. I then proceeded to farm for the stone of jordan with ALL of these characters respectively. I seem to recall from reading a few guides that nightmare(?) Andy was the best boss. However I alternated between different best-farming places with at least 3 of these characters. Another point to note, one of the characters had over 700% MF while most of the others averaged 400%. I still managed to find and kill Andy in less than a minute. Between these characters I had totaled well over 200 runs.
Results- I have never obtained a stone of jordan though I collected a variety of other unique rings. It could be that I have just been really unlucky if not for the fact that I have heard a lot of similar stories. Then when duping came in and there were so many SOJs that the uber diablo event was created to address this issue, I understood that luck wasn't much of an issue here really.
Now the designers (and the very lucky players) of the game might argue that the rarity of an item is what makes it worthwhile to get which is an alright philosophy if people actually have the required patience to achieve this goal. The problem here is that inevitably only a small minority of (lucky!) players will legitimately acquire the rarest of items.
A good portion won't and it will not be due to their lack of skill or patience but that the roll of the dice simply didn't favor them.
So here we suddenly find ourselves in a position where skill verily doesn't count. And this is what causes players to turn towards a less direct way of obtaining items. For in their minds there is really no reason as to why they didn't obtain x and y items when they've spent the same amount of time as the guy who's showing off next door with all his gear.
This one of the ways how the market for item-selling eventually builds itself. Of course it is only part of it since there are people who simply view farming as an extremely unpleasant facet of the game and just want the gear that will maximize the power of their skills which will give them the thrill they are seeking. Yet another group sees PvP as their main way of having fun and going again through the process of farming to ready their characters becomes way too tedious and they look for the short-cut.
The thing is that all of this has been happening since D2 but it wasn't in the open. The point though is that players have created that market and it's a certainty that this market will be here in D3.
Some items in D3 are going to continue to be rare to keep the experience of finding one as exhilarating as it were in the previous games which will give rise to the situation(s) I described above.
Let us switch sides for a moment and see this whole matter from the game creators point of view-
We create a game. We tailor the experience of adventuring around looting and confronting monsters and other players.
And then-
We see that while we made all items (freely) available in-game, some of are actually going out of their way to buy them from third parties and they are making a decent amount of money too out of it.
So-
If that's how part of the player base wants to approach the game, why not give them the option and we make the money instead?
You'll see that I regard item-selling stores as more of a natural response from blizzard rather than contrived attempt at making more money.
I also wish to impress upon you another point- item-buying is unlikely to become rampant or out-of-control. I suspect the same group of people who bought items in D2 will be the ones buying gear for D3- that is those who can afford it and are willing to exchange time(spent farming) for money.
The other group (probably the majority of D3 players) will find money a very strong deterrent to acquiring items through the store when these are available freely in-game.
I mentioned in-game economy because that is the only thing in my eyes that can be truly affected and from which you can actually collect quantitative data to examine trends and results.
You mentioned soul, integrity, fairness of game all of which are abstract/subjective and arbitrary concepts that I unfortunately cannot relate to. So I was not trying to evade any of your points but rather bring it to a level where our arguments can be more objectively compared.
End note- Item selling has been here since D2. Some players want to play the game this way- whether you offer them this choice through legitimate means or not.
D2 survived. D3 will too whether those stores are official or illegal. The decision for how to acquire these items will be made within the same mind-frame in either case except that in the former one, the money goes to the company who created the game. And you've already shown you know how the game can be improved with more money.
A shit game probably not. A good one, definitely yes.
So you're disagreement is either that a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store will not cause at least one of the points in the list below, or that the effect of all 6 of the below points will not cause D3 to be a shit game.
1) It renders the main point of the game meaningless, that is acquiring and collecting gear.
2) It trivializes game content as one of the primary reasons to run content is for a chance of getting gear.
3) It delegitimizes PvP when a major contributor to winning or losing is the gear you've bought.
4) It destroys fairness because those who are willing to spend more real life money can get more gear in the game.
5) It destroys the sense of escapism that game should offer.
6) Some people who do not want to play a game ruined in this way will quit.
Isn't a subscription model much more suitable for MMORPGs that have considerable server costs? I really can't see how the expenses involved in D3 would warrant one-
Your hypocrisy is laughable.
Firstly, if we use your bad argument that Blizzard can use the money they made from their item and gear selling store to continue to make patches and support the game, why can't that same argument be applied for the money (or excess money) they obtain from a subscription model. The difference here is that making money with a subscription model won't destroy the game.
Secondly, you claim that a subscription model is associated with high server costs, yet you don't see how the "expenses involved in D3 would warrant one", which would imply that you know the expenses in making D3. But clearly you don't.
Thirdly, a subscription model is not an all or nothing affair. If $15 a month is excessive for D3, then they could go with, say, $3 a month.
which is why I deem a simple vanity store to be fair(your favorite word) as a form of constant revenue and why a subscription-based system never crossed my mind.
We're still on the topic of a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store here, not a vanity store, as this is still a response to Sixen's post. Also, by definition, vanity stores would not be fair since players will have unequal access to vanity content dependent on whether they pay real life money for it our not. More on vanity stores in the next post.
I don't know, man. I would love to think the poll is representative of what the majority of players feel about the whole thing but I haven't seen anything so far that would suggest that the people who voted constitute a normative sample. I might be totally wrong though and only 400 or so people are going to play D3.
I don't appreciate your humorless attempt at satire.
I never claim that the poll is a representative sample, nor do I require it be to make my point. You said that:
Whether it is worth playing to you is completely irrelevant since my point was that more money can lead to more improvements. And that's pretty much a fact.
And I agree that in the grand scheme of things, whether the game is worth playing for me is irrelevant, but the poll demonstrates that I'm not the only person who wants no stores at all, and a majority of respondents in this website, which constitutes probably the more devoted Diablo fanbase have the same opinion. A representative sample is not required for these mere inferences that I've made.
in the case of imminent failure as you have predicted should item-selling stores form part the game. Best bet is to wait and see I guess.
A game doesn't have to be a financial failure to be a failure. I will guarantee you that D3 will not have a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, as Blizzard has always been unambiguously opposed to cheating and buying and selling gear for real world money. Blizzard has no plans to attempt financial suicide by introducing such a store.
Therefore, my purpose has mainly been to convince you, and others, how idiotic your opinion is.
I do not regard vanity items as core of the game.
End.
And how do you justify this absurd claim? If vanity items are not core to the game why are there armor designers, they could just release a game with 1 armor texture. By extension of this short-sighted claim, it would be perfectly acceptable if each of the 5 classes appeared as different color cubes, and we would have to buy a character model upgrade for $20.
To claim that vanity items are not a core part of the game is brick-headed. Nearly everything you see in a game is vanity. Items and features that are purely vanity are offered freely as a core component of all Blizzard games.
You're shifting the goalpost from vanity items don't matter to vanity items aren't a core part of the game, because this is an argument you've clearly lost.
It only fails if you see vanity items as core of the game and our views differ on this one.
No. Even if vanity items are not a core part of the game my counter to your bad argument would still hold.
You justified selling vanity items as acceptable because it doesn't have any affect in killing monsters, which is generally considered more important. And then you argued that vanity items don't make you enjoy the game more than useful gear.
I countered by saying that the enjoyment one gets from vanity items compare to useful gear is arbitrary and subjective (especially in the case of a negligible stat increase versus a look one may want). And selling vanity items is unacceptable because it is unfair that one must pay real life money to access vanity features that do affect the enjoyment of the game.
Where in the counter do I rely on the fact that vanity items are core to the game? Nowhere, I only claim that it has an affect on ones enjoyment of the game. Your comment that my argument falls apart if vanity items are not a core part of the game is simply false. Thus my counter holds.
You completely lost me on this one. You are not suggesting but you are saying hypothetically... Language barrier I fear.
Also you can't just randomly mention an idea if it is not even feasible which is I why I actually considered it as a possible alternative since our perceptions of fairness is different.
Blizzard could easily increase the price of D3 to $70 and the expansions to $50. I'm not saying they should do this, but how is it not feasible?
Vanity is extra. Paying for extra is completely justifiable. Wanting extra for free is 'spoiled' to me.
I've already explained above why vanity items are not extra. D2 and WC3 do not sell vanity items and vanity features, they are a core part of the game.
Alright let's talk a bit about this fairness business.
First of all I simply cannot stomach that notion of being 'forced' to get a vanity item if you want it. Just like the extra in a collector's edition that you have to pay more for, vanity items are the extra of the game. Should you feel you absolutely need it to enjoy the game, then you should pay for it.
My statement that you were replying to is the following:
Why would you prefer that in order to get certain vanity items someone may want, that they be forced to pay for it through a store, or go without it?
I noticed that you have conveniently dodge the question. My statement still stands, it says "in order to get certain vanity items someone may want". Notice this preface, as it is key. It then says "that they be forced to pay for it through a store". Now if someone wants a vanity item from a store (again notice the preface, it starts with an "if"), is there any legal way for them to acquire this item without buying it from the store? No. Therefore, by definition, that person is forced to pay real life money if they want that item.
Collectors edition vanity items are almost as despicable, but they tend not to be as fancy or used as frequently as what is typically sold in vanity stores. Two wrongs don't make a right, so pointing to WoW and SC2 collector's edition doesn't justify anything.
D3 is not real life but the financial model will be based on real-life applications. Like, if you are willing to pay more, you are entitled for more.
And this is what is fundamentally unfair by definition. You should not be able to pay more to get more. Everyone should pay the same, even if it means that everyone has to pay more. As a result, everyone should get the same access to the entire feature set of the game, vanity or otherwise.
I've already justified why this should be the case: because D3 is a game and real life money shouldn't come into it beyond the price that everyone equally pays.
On the other hand, you've mostly been spouting nonsense throughout this thread with no justification at all.
but as far as vanity items go, the whole playing field changes.
Obviously your perception will be different because of the importance you attribute to these, but understand that for some vanity is fluff and such a store generating revenue is hence perfectly alright.
Again you make a sweeping statement with no justification.
Call it fluff all you want, the fact remains that it can affect ones enjoyment of the game, and it is unfair to charge additionally for it.
A higher game price or a subscription model is acceptable for reasons I've already explain in the above posts. These are superior revenue generating models because they do not cause the game to be unfair.
Alrighty then. First of all I understand my magnificent sense of humor has been kind of off-putting to you. I do apologize.
As a result I will try to keep matters as formal as possible in this post. However I am afraid I will have to do you the discourtesy of not replying directly to what you posted. My excuse is that I have grasped much of your standpoint. So instead of going back and forth on how I am right and you are wrong, and vice-versa, I will try to explain to you my standpoint and why item-selling stores won't be the end of D3.
Before we proceed, let's consider this famous statement made by this famous person-
Half a game is defined as how the creators designed it and the other half how the players will approach it.
-Nekrodrac
Item selling has been around since D2 and it has been a reasonably successful and lucrative business albeit illegal. From here, we have identified that a market exists for this type of transaction.
Now while it is easy to jump the gun and cry- cheaters!, let's examine the following scenario-
This is entirely from my experience, though I'm hoping that when others read this, they will support this case with their own stories.
This is my gaming post patch 1.10 on D2 lord of destruction: I have leveled between 7-8 toons to level 75. I then proceeded to farm for the stone of jordan with ALL of these characters respectively. I seem to recall from reading a few guides that nightmare(?) Andy was the best boss. However I alternated between different best-farming places with at least 3 of these characters. Another point to note, one of the characters had over 700% MF while most of the others averaged 400%. I still managed to find and kill Andy in less than a minute. Between these characters I had totaled well over 200 runs.
Results- I have never obtained a stone of jordan though I collected a variety of other unique rings. It could be that I have just been really unlucky if not for the fact that I have heard a lot of similar stories. Then when duping came in and there were so many SOJs that the uber diablo event was created to address this issue, I understood that luck wasn't much of an issue here really.
Now the designers (and the very lucky players) of the game might argue that the rarity of an item is what makes it worthwhile to get which is an alright philosophy if people actually have the required patience to achieve this goal. The problem here is that inevitably only a small minority of (lucky!) players will legitimately acquire the rarest of items.
A good portion won't and it will not be due to their lack of skill or patience but that the roll of the dice simply didn't favor them.
So here we suddenly find ourselves in a position where skill verily doesn't count. And this is what causes players to turn towards a less direct way of obtaining items. For in their minds there is really no reason as to why they didn't obtain x and y items when they've spent the same amount of time as the guy who's showing off next door with all his gear.
This one of the ways how the market for item-selling eventually builds itself. Of course it is only part of it since there are people who simply view farming as an extremely unpleasant facet of the game and just want the gear that will maximize the power of their skills which will give them the thrill they are seeking. Yet another group sees PvP as their main way of having fun and going again through the process of farming to ready their characters becomes way too tedious and they look for the short-cut.
The thing is that all of this has been happening since D2 but it wasn't in the open. The point though is that players have created that market and it's a certainty that this market will be here in D3.
Some items in D3 are going to continue to be rare to keep the experience of finding one as exhilarating as it were in the previous games which will give rise to the situation(s) I described above.
Let us switch sides for a moment and see this whole matter from the game creators point of view-
We create a game. We tailor the experience of adventuring around looting and confronting monsters and other players.
And then-
We see that while we made all items (freely) available in-game, some of are actually going out of their way to buy them from third parties and they are making a decent amount of money too out of it.
So-
If that's how part of the player base wants to approach the game, why not give them the option and we make the money instead?
You'll see that I regard item-selling stores as more of a natural response from blizzard rather than contrived attempt at making more money.
I also wish to impress upon you another point- item-buying is unlikely to become rampant or out-of-control. I suspect the same group of people who bought items in D2 will be the ones buying gear for D3- that is those who can afford it and are willing to exchange time(spent farming) for money.
The other group (probably the majority of D3 players) will find money a very strong deterrent to acquiring items through the store when these are available freely in-game.
I mentioned in-game economy because that is the only thing in my eyes that can be truly affected and from which you can actually collect quantitative data to examine trends and results.
You mentioned soul, integrity, fairness of game all of which are abstract/subjective and arbitrary concepts that I unfortunately cannot relate to. So I was not trying to evade any of your points but rather bring it to a level where our arguments can be more objectively compared.
End note- Item selling has been here since D2. Some players want to play the game this way- whether you offer them this choice through legitimate means or not.
D2 survived. D3 will too whether those stores are official or illegal. The decision for how to acquire these items will be made within the same mind-frame in either case except that in the former one, the money goes to the company who created the game. And you've already shown you know how the game can be improved with more money.
Peace.
This is the most self-indulgent post, rationalizing the "legitimacy" of cheating, that I've ever read.
1) I suspect the reason you didn't directly reply to all of my points is partly because there are some for which you can't.
2) The legitimate way to get those rare drops after being continually screwed by the RNG is buy trading up to them.
3) If part of the playerbase wants to approach the game by buying items, Blizzard correctly bans them, because they are cheaters, their actions damage the economy, the people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers, they undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game, and because legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.
4) Buying your way to the best items is cheating, it's not playing the game the way it is intended. Nor should it be the way the game is intended because striving for the best items by running content and trading is the core of Diablo gameplay.
5) You mentioned in-game economy in relation to Blizzard spending money on patching and developing content for the game. There is no connection. Blizzard doesn't gather data to see that the average price of a SOJ is 50,000 gold, and decides as a result of this that it's time to release a new dungeon, or make a patch to nerf the Wizard because she's overpowered, or open an item and gear selling store.
6) Yes, some people want to pay the game by buying and selling items, and those cheaters should all be banned.
7) The core and soul of Diablo is an loot and item trading game. Buying items circumvents the need to run content or trade, therefore it destroys the game.
8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because the game will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally.
9) It is now apparent to me that you are a cheater, or at least a sympathizer of cheaters. Thus, I have no respect for you.
Jay Wilson, D3 lead designer, on the core of Diablo:
Jay Wilson: Well, Diablo, at its core is basically a trader's game. If you look at other types of progression based RPG games, World of Warcraft is a great example. In World of Warcraft the best items are you know, held by the raiders. In Diablo the best items are really held by the traders. You know those people that are really good at trading with other people. We have no intention of destroying that design or that group of players.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
1) I suspect the reason you didn't directly reply to all of my points is partly because there are some for which you can't.
You won't make a very good detective though. Your suspicions are crappy. I can reply to all of your so-called arguments but unlike you I have identified from where our perceptions differ and have thus explained to you why I can understand the rationale of a store. Of course I now know you do not have the ability to understand anything beyond your opinion.
2) The legitimate way to get those rare drops after being continually screwed with the RNG is buy trading up to them.
LOL!!!
You see, you can't understand anything. Rare items are RARE. That's how the game is designed which also means that only a minority will get them, however much trading there is. So what will happen to the rest, eh? Damn you are so clueless, it's pathetic. If trading was so easy, why would people ever want to spend real-life money on items? Make some sense already besides your cheating melodrama. Seriously, I'm starting to doubt you even have a brain, nevermind a functioning one.
And ya SOJs were all totally genuine. So much that people were selling them by the hundreds.
3) If part of the playerbase wants to approach the game by buying items, Blizzard correctly bans them, because they are cheaters, their actions damage the economy, the people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers, they undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game, and because legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.
Be careful- you could overdose on excess self-rightenousness. Oh yeah blizzard, ban them! So easy- i mean in your fairy world it must be. I'm sure all the righteous gamers who spend their days farming/trading items instantly recongize duped or bought items and must feel all heart-broken and all.
Oh the tragedy!!!
4) Buying your way to the best items is cheating, it's not playing the game the way it is intended. Nor should it be the way the game is intended because striving for the best items by running content and trading is the core of Diablo gameplay.
If playing the way the game is meant to be does not provide the most fun, players will find a way around. I am sure none of us skipped content here. I mean how could we possibly have done something so aweful(and against the game's philosophy) and yet enjoyed the game?
Impossible right? Oh man, seriously, get a clue.
5) You mentioned in-game economy in relation to Blizzard spending money on patching and developing content for the game. There is no connection. Blizzard doesn't gather data to see that the average price of a SOJ is 50,000 gold, and decides as a result of this that it's time to release a new dungeon, or make a patch to nerf the Wizard because she's overpowered, or open an item and gear selling store.
Ya I know, selling SOJs and the appearance of Uber Diablo were PURELY coincidental.
7) The core and soul of Diablo is an loot and item trading game. Buying items circumvents the need to run content or trade, therefore it destroys the game.
Circumventing only for those choosing to do so. And there are good reasons for many to skip trading and some content(impossible to circumevent all content). I already mentioned that spending real life money for items that can be freely obtained will continue to be the deterrent for most people.
8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because it will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally.
You are one incredible hypocrite. Whether it is legal or not, it's almost impossible to detect items that are bought, especially if they have been originally otained in a legit manner. So these stores will continue to EXIST. If the existence of such a store can't ruin a game, it can't ruin anything legal or not.
9) It is now apparent to me that you are a cheater, or at least a sympathizer of cheaters. Thus, I have no respect for you.
I have never cheated in D2- unless you count using mods in single player offline as cheating. But I try my best to understand all parties, something you are uncapable of.
The best you can do is label people apparently. Good luck with that.
How would something float to the top because its bought? For one theres absolutely no indication that Blizzard would implement anything that can be bought that affects gameplay, and visual things that you have to buy would simply make you look like a noob who paid for a dye or something along those lines, as we've seen with similar stuff in WoW.
You won't make a very good detective though. Your suspicions are crappy. I can reply to all of your so-called arguments but unlike you I have identified from where our perceptions differ and have thus explained to you why I can understand the rationale of a store. Of course I now know you do not have the ability to understand anything beyond your opinion.
I didn't write those posts only so that you can understand them, although I would hope that the first step before replying is obviously understanding. I wrote them to show that you are wrong and so that people can argue against them, if they disagree with what I said. I see that you have nothing further to say or argue.
LOL!!!
You see, you can't understand anything. Rare items are RARE. That's how the game is designed which also means that only a minority will get them, however much trading there is. So what will happen to the rest, eh? Damn you are so clueless, it's pathetic. If trading was so easy, why would people ever want to spend real-life money on items? Make some sense already besides your cheating melodrama. Seriously, I'm starting to doubt you even have a brain, nevermind a functioning one.
And ya SOJs were all totally genuine. So much that people were selling them by the hundreds.
The fact that you or anyone else are unable to obtain a rare item in a legitimate way, within the rules of the game you agree to when making a B.net account, doesn't give you the right to cheat in order to get them. Buying and selling items is cheating.
Your assertion people should be allowed to buy items because they are unable to legitimately obtain those items by trading is a direct endorsement for cheating. It is a complete antithesis to the whole point of the game.
Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters.
If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play.
Item duplication is completely irrelevant. It is a solved issue, no item has ever been duplicated in WoW.
Be careful- you could overdose on excess self-rightenousness. Oh yeah blizzard, ban them! So easy- i mean in your fairy world it must be. I'm sure all the righteous gamers who spend their days farming/trading items instantly recongize duped or bought items and must feel all heart-broken and all.
Oh the tragedy!!!
Not only is it easy for me to say, it's easy for Blizzard to say too. Blizzard bans item and gold buyers, they ban maphackers, they sue item and gold sellers. They are correct to take this sort of action, because all of these examples undermine how the game is intended to be played. Not banning cheaters will give an unfair advantage to cheaters at the expense of legitimate players.
You've also completely dodged the core of my argument, justifying why cheaters need to be banned:
1) Their actions damage the economy.
2) The people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers.
3) They undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game.
4) Legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.
If playing the way the game is meant to be does not provide the most fun, players will find a way around. I am sure none of us skipped content here. I mean how could we possibly have done something so aweful(and against the game's philosophy) and yet enjoyed the game?
Impossible right? Oh man, seriously, get a clue.
I've never claimed that cheaters are not having fun. But who is hurt? The fun they experience is derived from the unfair advantage they have over legitimate players, whether it's because they use a maphack to remove the fog of war in SC2, or because they win in PvP due to the items they have bought. In all these cases, their fun comes at the expense of legitimate and law-abiding players. Therefore, they should be banned, and Blizzard is of the same opinion.
Ya I know, selling SOJs and the appearance of Uber Diablo were PURELY coincidental.
Do you seriously think this is something that will ever be repeated again in D3? As I've already said, duplicating items is a solved issue. When's the last time Blizzard paid attention to the WoW in-game economy for anything? Never, because the in-game economy is a free market, players can do whatever they want. Do you know what actually motivates the development of content? Blizzard's development schedule, staffing, and priorities, not the in-game economy.
I have no sympathy for cheaters, and don't be surprised if most legitimate players don't either. But most importantly, Blizzard has no sympathy for cheaters. They get banned.
Circumventing only for those choosing to do so. And there are good reasons for many to skip trading and some content(impossible to circumevent all content). I already mentioned that spending real life money for items that can be freely obtained will continue to be the deterrent for most people.
Then those who choose to spend the most real life money will be able to buy the best items, the most gold, the strongest PvP characters. Then the cheaters win, so I can see why this is an outcome you are in favor of.
But I can also see why this is an outcome that Blizzard will do everything in their power to stop.
I suggest that you stop using words whose meaning you clearly don't understand. Your usage of the word "hypocrite" is completely out of context, it doesn't even apply here. How in any way does your response to what you quoted, even if it were true (which it isn't), show that I'm a hypocrite? Stick to using only words that you are capable of understanding.
Whether it is legal or not, it's almost impossible to detect items that are bought, especially if they have been originally otained in a legit manner. So these stores will continue to EXIST. If the existence of such a store can't ruin a game, it can't ruin anything legal or not.
Again your unsophisticated thinking is not able to grasp the issue here. In D2, items already obtained in the game are illegally sold, call this (1). In what you're suggesting, D3 should have a store where Blizzard legally sells items and gear, not already in possession of any particular player, for real money, call this (2). You claimed that (1) didn't kill D2, but how then does this imply that (2) will not kill D3, when (1) is not the same as (2)?
Your argument would be valid if (1) is exactly the same as (2), but they are different.
First difference: In (1), the transaction is illegal, and as a result legitimate players are not inclined to partake in such a sale. Only a small portion of players, cheaters, do this. In (2), the transaction is completely legal, so buying items can become rampant. The best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy even more items, since Blizzard will take no action against it.
Second difference: In (1) the item is already in the game so such a transaction is harder to detect. In (2) the item is created out of nothing, and Blizzard will have a record of the items they've sold. As a result, a large amount of items will flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate, as opposed to (1) where they are controlled by a drop rate.
I have never cheated in D2- unless you count using mods in single player offline as cheating. But I try my best to understand all parties, something you are uncapable of.
The best you can do is label people apparently. Good luck with that.
I understand cheaters, I understand why they do what they do, why they destroy the game, why they need to be banned, and why Blizzard agrees and rightfully bans cheaters.
If you have a valid argument why buying and selling items for real world money is not cheating, then please make it. Until then, I and many other players, are of the correct opinion that cheaters are a cancer that needs to be exterminated.
All that dribble about vanity items affecting your enjoyment of the game and therefore being unfair to sell,
No one in this thread has given a good reason why it is better to sell vanity items, than to not sell vanity items.
Look at the poll results, over 55% of the respondents on this website agree that there should be absolutely no store at all, including no vanity item store. One reason that has been commonly given in this thread, by myself and others, is that even vanity items are unfair. If you disagree with that argument, then why don't you make a counterargument.
Why do you think over 55% of respondents think there should be no store in D3?
plus that thing about "why don't we play with coloured cubes instead of armour", bla bla bla. I hoped I wouldn't have to tell you this, but: vanity items =/= visuals.
Vanity items and visuals are synonymous in the sense that every visual can be made to be generated as a result of a vanity item. This is obvious, as vanity items are purely visual.
Consider a game, where the 5 classes appear as 5 differently colored cubes, and there exists a vanity item, that when acquired, changes the cube to appear as a normal looking character model. In this case, one can argue that this particular vanity item is not a core part of the game, therefore it is justifiable to charge $20 for it. It's only vanity, it doesn't affect gameplay in any way after all. Right?
This is the argument of "Vanity items do not affect gameplay and are not a core part of the game so it is acceptable to charge for it", taken to its logical extreme. Agreeing with this argument, necessarily implies agreeing with the example above.
Otherwise, you or Neckrodrac should refine your argument to "Vanity items do not affect gameplay and are not a core part of the game so it is acceptable to charge for it, as long as they do not drastically alter visuals to a point where I have arbitrarily decided that my enjoyment of the game would be hindered without it."
I guess that, in theory, anything *might* affect your enjoyment of anything, so nothing should be sold, everything should be given.
Last I checked, D3 won't be free.
However, if you would like to send a free copy my way, I'll be happy to accept it. And if you send a free copy to every player, I will concede my argument is erroneous, because then D3 really is "given".
Hell, I'm gonna march right now to the car dealer down the street and tell him that it's unfair that he charges extra for those 22" rims!
A car is not a game. If you can't articulate your argument within the confines of the discussion, instead of appealing to an analogy that doesn't even fully apply, then you need to improve your exposition skills.
Holy hell...It's a game! And you're arguing about a hypothetical situation. Stop double posting and go do something constructive.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I didn't write those posts only so that you can understand them, although I would hope that the first step before replying is obviously understanding. I wrote them to show that you are wrong and so that people can argue against them, if they disagree with what I said. I see that you have nothing further to say or argue.
True. I have nothing more to add. I have explained why I understand the option of item-selling store. Our point of views are based on entirely different assumptions about the game and the influence of the store.
The fact that you or anyone else are unable to obtain a rare item in a legitimate way, within the rules of the game you agree to when making a B.net account, doesn't give you the right to cheat in order to get them. Buying and selling items is cheating.
Someone is spending cash earned in real-life to buy virtual items is something foolish in my eyes. Cheating? That depends on the rules. If you notice the thread title- it says 'Future of item selling'. Neither me nor you know whether these rules will change or remain the same.
Your assertion people should be allowed to buy items because they are unable to legitimately obtain those items by trading is a direct endorsement for cheating. It is a complete antithesis to the whole point of the game.
In addition to referring to above reply, note that I've already given a few reasons why item selling/buying is actually so popular. The 'point' of the game does not change. The means do.
Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters.
If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play.
Question- How do you detect bought items if these have been legitimately obtained?
Not only is it easy for me to say, it's easy for Blizzard to say too. Blizzard bans item and gold buyers, they ban maphackers, they sue item and gold sellers. They are correct to take this sort of action, because all of these examples undermine how the game is intended to be played. Not banning cheaters will give an unfair advantage to cheaters at the expense of legitimate players.
Blizzard is sueing any item/gold sellers because the latter are making profit off their product. That's my take on this matter. Note that I'm not saying you are wrong but that I on the other hand very much doubt that Blizzard did this to promote the game instead of their profits.
You've also completely dodged the core of my argument, justifying why cheaters need to be banned:
1) Their actions damage the economy.
2) The people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers.
3) They undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game.
4) Legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.
Cheaters need to be banned. Yes.
The presence of a blizzard store makes the buyers normal players.
1)Damage to the economy and item trading is impossible to assess until the game is in operation. My assumption: The consequence of spending real-life money will act as a major deterrent for many from buying from store, especially since items are freely available in-game.
2) Store means they won't have to do any of this and I believe that's what we were discussing about- the 'future' of item selling
3)If a person does not have the trading skills, they won't take this route and as you previously said, they do not even deserve that item which is on trade. Let's say that person goes to buy it in a store.
Another person who is skilled in trading comes along and gets your item(that person exists by virtue of assumption in (1). Now for that guy who bought his in a store with real-life money, the assumption that I make to determine his impact on future trading is that the spending of real-life money on that item will make said-person reluctant to part with it easily. Therefore trading won't be marred by a sudden influx of bought-items.
4)I agree(if they are cheaters as is defined by the rules in vigor at that time).
I've never claimed that cheaters are not having fun. But who is hurt? The fun they experience is derived from the unfair advantage they have over legitimate players, whether it's because they use a maphack to remove the fog of war in SC2, or because they win in PvP due to the items they have bought. In all these cases, their fun comes at the expense of legitimate and law-abiding players. Therefore, they should be banned, and Blizzard is of the same opinion.
Let us stick to bought items and D3. I don't play SC2 nor heard of the maphack, so I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Those 'law-abiding' gamers are to me simply people who enjoy farming and have the time for it. It's convenient for them to play the game this way. If you want to elevate them on a pedestal for it, that's your own business. I think I've already addressed the point of 'cheaters'.
Ya I know, selling SOJs and the appearance of Uber Diablo were PURELY coincidental.
Do you seriously think this is something that will ever be repeated again in D3? As I've already said, duplicating items is a solved issue. When's the last time Blizzard paid attention to the WoW in-game economy for anything? Never, because the in-game economy is a free market, players can do whatever they want. Do you know what actually motivates the development of content? Blizzard's development schedule, staffing, and priorities, not the in-game economy.
You said there was no connection. I merely showed you one example where there was a connection. I'm not trying to win this argument but you were wrong there.
Then those who choose to spend the most real life money will be able to buy the best items, the most gold, the strongest PvP characters. Then the cheaters win, so I can see why this is an outcome you are in favor of.
From all the discussions on this board, most PvPers have prided themselves on their skill. While they have acknowledged the importance of items, I'm pretty sure D3 will have a wide range of that, so that the determinant of PvP will still primarily remain skill.
And you can't buy skill with money. I can easily imagine all true PvPers getting even more thrill from beating a guy who bought his items, since this community tends to look really highly upon challenging encounters.
I suggest that you stop using words whose meaning you clearly don't understand. Your usage of the word "hypocrite" is completely out of context, it doesn't even apply here. How in any way does your response to what you quoted, even if it were true (which it isn't), show that I'm a hypocrite? Stick to using only words that you are capable of understanding.
Hypocrite- a person who pretends to be what he is not
That's the definition I got. And yes, I understand the meaning and it definitely applies to you. Feel free to continue to pretend you can't comprehend.
Again your unsophisticated thinking is not able to grasp the issue here. In D2, items already obtained in the game are illegally sold, call this (1). In what you're suggesting, D3 should have a store where Blizzard legally sells items and gear, not already in possession of any particular player, for real money, call this (2). You claimed that (1) didn't kill D2, but how then does this imply that (2) will not kill D3, when (1) is not the same as (2)?
You have simply arranged (1) and (2) for your own convenience.
Let me try-
(1) Item selling did not destroy D2.
(2) Item selling will not destroy D3.
Item selling can go with either-
(3) Item selling gives blizzard money
(4) Item selling gives black market money
First difference: In (1), the transaction is illegal, and as a result legitimate players are not inclined to partake in such a sale. Only a small portion of players, cheaters, do this. In (2), the transaction is completely legal, so buying items can become rampant. The best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy even more items, since Blizzard will take no action against it.Second difference: In (1) the item is already in the game so such a transaction is harder to detect. In (2) the item is created out of nothing, and Blizzard will have a record of the items they've sold. As a result, a large amount of items will flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate, as opposed to (1) where they are controlled by a drop rate.
I don't see buying items as becoming rampant for reasons already mentioned. Furthermore Blizzard cannot detect bought items as far as I know so they wouldn't have been able to take any action anyway.
If you have a valid argument why buying and selling items for real world money is not cheating, then please make it. Until then, I and many other players, are of the correct opinion that cheaters are a cancer that needs to be exterminated.
I've already explained the rationale of stores and how they could work. I believe I have nothing more to add.
Your approach to this whole matter leaves much to be desired but understandable if you think the game will be unplayable should stores somehow be implemented.
True. I have nothing more to add. I have explained why I understand the option of item-selling store. Our point of views are based on entirely different assumptions about the game and the influence of the store.
Yes, you have nothing to add because I have proved all your arguments wrong in those posts.
Someone is spending cash earned in real-life to buy virtual items is something foolish in my eyes. Cheating? That depends on the rules. If you notice the thread title- it says 'Future of item selling'. Neither me nor you know whether these rules will change or remain the same.
You don't know if these rules will change or stay the same? Are you serious? Or just completely oblivious? Blizzard has always vigorously opposed selling items and gear at every single time point in the past, and at every possible chance they have to explain why they so strongly oppose selling items and gear. There is no possibility that this will ever change. Why don't you actually read some of the things Blizzard writes about selling items and gear? Then maybe you might understand why this will never change.
In addition to referring to above reply, note that I've already given a few reasons why item selling/buying is actually so popular. The 'point' of the game does not change. The means do.
Whether or not buying items and gear is popular (which is highly debatable since you have no evidence of how prevalent item buying is) doesn't change the fact that it is cheating. In a hypothetical future where it is allowed, the point of the game is completely destroyed. What's the point of trading when you'll just be beaten buy gear buyers? What's the point of collecting gear when you'll just be beaten by gear buyers? What's the point of PvP, when you'll just be beaten by gear buyers?
Question- How do you detect bought items if these have been legitimately obtained?
How is this question relevant in any way to the quote it's replying to? That is:
"Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters. If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play."
The answer is, in the example where Blizzard sells gear, they will have a list of items they've sold.
I see that you've completely dodged the point by ignoring everything I've written, and asked an irrelevant question instead.
It is relevant when considering gamers' behavior in relation to rare items- the reason why I mentioned it at all. It's in context.
It's not relevant to anything. You're just throwing everything out there just to see what sticks, because you're not sophisticated enough to refine your thoughts.
Your argument was that rare items are rare so that not everyone can get them. Then you randomly through out the completely irrelevant and unrelated fact that SoJs were duped. What has this got to do with rare items being rare?
And now you're saying that you talked about duped items because it related to the behavior of gamers. Why does this matter? Are you trying to say players will cheat to get rare items? If so, why didn't you just say exactly that? If players want to cheat, the correct response is not "I wonder why they cheat?" (Answer: to get an advantage over legitimate players) or "Let's sell gear because that's what they want", the correct response is Blizzard's response: Ban them.
Blizzard is sueing any item/gold sellers because the latter are making profit off their product. That's my take on this matter. Note that I'm not saying you are wrong but that I on the other hand very much doubt that Blizzard did this to promote the game instead of their profits.
Again, your lack of sophisticated thinking is showing. Blizzard isn't directly losing money because others are selling items and gear. Nor do they get money by closing down item and gear selling websites. Why doesn't Blizzard just open their own item and gear selling store, so that they can actually profit from it? Answer: because they are fundamentally against it.
The presence of a blizzard store makes the buyers normal players.
1)Damage to the economy and item trading is impossible to assess until the game is in operation. My assumption: The consequence of spending real-life money will act as a major deterrent for many from buying from store, especially since items are freely available in-game.
The fact that spending real life money is a deterrent to buying gear doesn't help your argument, it hurts it. The more expensive the gear, the greater the deterrent to buy it, meaning that fewer players will have bought gear, and therefore the larger the gap between gear buyers and those who do not buy gear, i.e. gear buyers will be far better off and more powerful because they have better gear than a greater proportion of the playerbase.
I can see why you want to help gear buyers and the expense of everyone else.
3)If a person does not have the trading skills, they won't take this route and as you previously said, they do not even deserve that item which is on trade. Let's say that person goes to buy it in a store.
Another person who is skilled in trading comes along and gets your item(that person exists by virtue of assumption in (1). Now for that guy who bought his in a store with real-life money, the assumption that I make to determine his impact on future trading is that the spending of real-life money on that item will make said-person reluctant to part with it easily. Therefore trading won't be marred by a sudden influx of bought-items.
Items that are bought from a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, are created out of nothing. That necessarily implies an influx of items, popping into existence, out of nothing. Your assumption that players will not trade bought items has been pulled out of your ass, it is based on nothing.
There is no point to trading, when gear buyers will have better items. Example: There is a gear store, but a player doesn't buy gear. This player wants to get a particular rare item that will make him better at PvP. The player trades items, until he eventually trades up to this rare item. Why should the player bother going through the effort of doing this since when he eventually gets this rare item, gear buyers will already have it, and other better items to beat him in PvP with?
In this example, the most effective way to be successful at the game is to buy gear instead of trading, bypassing one of the core activities of the game.
Let us stick to bought items and D3. I don't play SC2 nor heard of the maphack, so I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Those 'law-abiding' gamers are to me simply people who enjoy farming and have the time for it. It's convenient for them to play the game this way. If you want to elevate them on a pedestal for it, that's your own business. I think I've already addressed the point of 'cheaters'.
If you're not going to play the game the way it is designed and intended, within the rules of the game, which means no items and gear buying, then you deserve to get banned, because your actions hurt legitimate players. In the case where Blizzard is selling items and gear, there is no point to playing the game, there is no point to the game, because no matter what you do, unless you also buy gear, you will lose: the gear buyers will be better and more successful than you.
You said there was no connection. I merely showed you one example where there was a connection. I'm not trying to win this argument but you were wrong there.
I'm not wrong. This is another example of you randomly spewing completely irrelevant things out. Let's go back to where this started: You said that if I wanted you to give examples of ways extra money can be used to improved the game, then you would have to wait to see what the state of the in-game economy is, in order to give those examples. This claim you made suggests that the state of the in-game economy is a relevant contributing factor to the content that gets developed for the game, not that there exists one mere example where the in-game economy was partially responsible for the development of content.
From all the discussions on this board, most PvPers have prided themselves on their skill. While they have acknowledged the importance of items, I'm pretty sure D3 will have a wide range of that, so that the determinant of PvP will still primarily remain skill.
And you can't buy skill with money. I can easily imagine all true PvPers getting even more thrill from beating a guy who bought his items, since this community tends to look really highly upon challenging encounters.
I can clearly see that you've never played any seriously competitive sports or games. In a competitive game, competitive players will do everything they are legally (or sometimes illegally) allowed, in order to win. The most competitive PvP players will be forced to buy gear to compete with other competitive PvP players. The most serious and competitive players will not be gimping themselves and be relying on skill alone, they will rely on both skill and gear, since others just as skilled as them will have bought gear to remain competitive.
In SC2, Korean professional tournament players don't say to themselves, "I will win with skill, and therefore not spend the money to hire a coach". They will spend the money to hire a coach, because other professional tournament players have coaches, and skill plus coach will give them a greater chance of winning than skill alone. Just as skill plus buying gear will give a greater chance of winning than skill alone. The most competitive PvP players would be obligated to buy gear, and the most successful PvP players will be gear buyers who just happen to be very skilled.
Hypocrite- a person who pretends to be what he is not
That's the definition I got. And yes, I understand the meaning and it definitely applies to you. Feel free to continue to pretend you can't comprehend.
Here's the quote you were replying to when you called me a hypocrite:
"8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because it will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally."
Where in that quote have I pretended to be something I'm not? In fact, where in this entire thread have I pretended to be something I'm not?
Let me give you a correct example of the usage of the word "hypocrite": If I were on the Blizzard web team, gleefully making those ads you can see on the WoW site to sell the sparkly pony mount for $20, then that would make me a hypocrite, given what I've written in this thread.
You have simply arranged (1) and (2) for your own convenience.
Let me try-
(1) Item selling did not destroy D2.
(2) Item selling will not destroy D3.
Item selling can go with either-
(3) Item selling gives blizzard money
(4) Item selling gives black market money
Just the money going into different hands.
I haven't arranged anything. You said: item selling didn't kill D2, so item selling won't kill D3. But item selling in D2 is NOT THE SAME as item selling in D3 (the hypothetical Blizzard-run item selling store). The effect of item selling in D2, says NOTHING about the effect of item selling in D3, because they are NOT THE SAME THING.
What you've written there makes no sense. Your (1) does NOT imply (2) because, they are different things.
No, it's not as simple as just money going into different hands, there are 2 fundamental differences you've failed to account for: Firstly, item selling in D2 just changes the owner of an already existing item, item selling in D3 (as hypothesized) will create an item out of nothing. Secondly, item selling in D2 is illegal, item selling in D3 (as hypothesized) will be legal. Therefore, they are different.
This causes far more complicated effects than simply money going into different hands.
I don't see buying items as becoming rampant for reasons already mentioned. Furthermore Blizzard cannot detect bought items as far as I know so they wouldn't have been able to take any action anyway.
Given that the best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy items, you're delusional if you can't see that item buying will become rampant, at least amongst the serious and competitive players.
In the case of a Blizzard-run item selling store, they CAN exactly tell what items have been bought. They created those items out of nothing, for the very purpose of letting them be bought. Are you so stupid you can't see this obvious fact?
It's not whether Blizzard can detect bought items that is important, it's the fact that Blizzard would create an item out of nothing, every time someone enters their credit card details, allowing these items to flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate. There is no feasible way to control the amount of items people buy, the same way one can control a drop rate.
I've already explained the rationale of stores and how they could work. I believe I have nothing more to add.
Your approach to this whole matter leaves much to be desired but understandable if you think the game will be unplayable should stores somehow be implemented.
You haven't explained anything. All you've done is suggest that people want to buy items so they should be able to, while throwing completely random and irrelevant statements and making objectively false claims about the effects of a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store.
Throughout this whole thing you are convinced that all or most players are on your side, along with blizzard. Yet you continue getting your panties in a mix over a hypothetical situation even though you are supposedly sure item selling store will never be in the game.
Like, I am 100% sure something won't ever happen but hey you know what, I will still rage about it. You've got some serious issues.
You jumped into the thread with that shitty attitude you know better than everybody when you simply don't.
None of my claims are false, you idiot. They cannot be- something you have yet to grasp. They are only for people to consider while you've been on this whole crusade about how you are absolutely right and I am wrong. There is plenty of messed-up material with what you've just written right now but I'll skip over it. I tried at one point in getting this deal level and explained a possibility, but dealing with maniacs become extremely boring after a while.
Throughout this whole thing you are convinced that all or most players are on your side, along with blizzard. Yet you continue getting your panties in a mix over a hypothetical situation even though you are supposedly sure item selling store will never be in the game.
Like, I am 100% sure something won't ever happen but hey you know what, I will still rage about it. You've got some serious issues.
You jumped into the thread with that shitty attitude you know better than everybody when you simply don't.
None of my claims are false, you idiot. They cannot be- something you have yet to grasp. They are only for people to consider while you've been on this whole crusade about how you are absolutely right and I am wrong. There is plenty of messed-up material with what you've just written right now but I'll skip over it. I tried at one point in getting this deal level and explained a possibility, but dealing with maniacs become extremely boring after a while.
Another excuse for not responding to my arguments that you can't counter.
A Blizzard-run item and gear selling store will never happen, but that's not going to stop me from pointing out your erroneous claims.
I am a casual player i have a wife and a son,and i work 75+ hours a week.. so i wont be one that has endless hours to farm items and i still strongly disagree with item sales for cash.
It ruines the entire game, and its not just the person buying the item thats effected its the entire economy that suffers,Diablo was never a game that you needed to have the best of the best gear to have fun and the longer it takes to get the best gear the longer you get to enjoy the game.
just my thoughts
cheers
This exactly.
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As a result I will try to keep matters as formal as possible in this post. However I am afraid I will have to do you the discourtesy of not replying directly to what you posted. My excuse is that I have grasped much of your standpoint. So instead of going back and forth on how I am right and you are wrong, and vice-versa, I will try to explain to you my standpoint and why item-selling stores won't be the end of D3.
Before we proceed, let's consider this famous statement made by this famous person-
Item selling has been around since D2 and it has been a reasonably successful and lucrative business albeit illegal. From here, we have identified that a market exists for this type of transaction.
Now while it is easy to jump the gun and cry- cheaters!, let's examine the following scenario-
This is entirely from my experience, though I'm hoping that when others read this, they will support this case with their own stories.
This is my gaming post patch 1.10 on D2 lord of destruction: I have leveled between 7-8 toons to level 75. I then proceeded to farm for the stone of jordan with ALL of these characters respectively. I seem to recall from reading a few guides that nightmare(?) Andy was the best boss. However I alternated between different best-farming places with at least 3 of these characters. Another point to note, one of the characters had over 700% MF while most of the others averaged 400%. I still managed to find and kill Andy in less than a minute. Between these characters I had totaled well over 200 runs.
Results- I have never obtained a stone of jordan though I collected a variety of other unique rings. It could be that I have just been really unlucky if not for the fact that I have heard a lot of similar stories. Then when duping came in and there were so many SOJs that the uber diablo event was created to address this issue, I understood that luck wasn't much of an issue here really.
Now the designers (and the very lucky players) of the game might argue that the rarity of an item is what makes it worthwhile to get which is an alright philosophy if people actually have the required patience to achieve this goal. The problem here is that inevitably only a small minority of (lucky!) players will legitimately acquire the rarest of items.
A good portion won't and it will not be due to their lack of skill or patience but that the roll of the dice simply didn't favor them.
So here we suddenly find ourselves in a position where skill verily doesn't count. And this is what causes players to turn towards a less direct way of obtaining items. For in their minds there is really no reason as to why they didn't obtain x and y items when they've spent the same amount of time as the guy who's showing off next door with all his gear.
This one of the ways how the market for item-selling eventually builds itself. Of course it is only part of it since there are people who simply view farming as an extremely unpleasant facet of the game and just want the gear that will maximize the power of their skills which will give them the thrill they are seeking. Yet another group sees PvP as their main way of having fun and going again through the process of farming to ready their characters becomes way too tedious and they look for the short-cut.
The thing is that all of this has been happening since D2 but it wasn't in the open. The point though is that players have created that market and it's a certainty that this market will be here in D3.
Some items in D3 are going to continue to be rare to keep the experience of finding one as exhilarating as it were in the previous games which will give rise to the situation(s) I described above.
Let us switch sides for a moment and see this whole matter from the game creators point of view-
We create a game. We tailor the experience of adventuring around looting and confronting monsters and other players.
And then-
We see that while we made all items (freely) available in-game, some of are actually going out of their way to buy them from third parties and they are making a decent amount of money too out of it.
So-
If that's how part of the player base wants to approach the game, why not give them the option and we make the money instead?
You'll see that I regard item-selling stores as more of a natural response from blizzard rather than contrived attempt at making more money.
I also wish to impress upon you another point- item-buying is unlikely to become rampant or out-of-control. I suspect the same group of people who bought items in D2 will be the ones buying gear for D3- that is those who can afford it and are willing to exchange time(spent farming) for money.
The other group (probably the majority of D3 players) will find money a very strong deterrent to acquiring items through the store when these are available freely in-game.
I mentioned in-game economy because that is the only thing in my eyes that can be truly affected and from which you can actually collect quantitative data to examine trends and results.
You mentioned soul, integrity, fairness of game all of which are abstract/subjective and arbitrary concepts that I unfortunately cannot relate to. So I was not trying to evade any of your points but rather bring it to a level where our arguments can be more objectively compared.
End note- Item selling has been here since D2. Some players want to play the game this way- whether you offer them this choice through legitimate means or not.
D2 survived. D3 will too whether those stores are official or illegal. The decision for how to acquire these items will be made within the same mind-frame in either case except that in the former one, the money goes to the company who created the game. And you've already shown you know how the game can be improved with more money.
Peace.
1) It renders the main point of the game meaningless, that is acquiring and collecting gear.
2) It trivializes game content as one of the primary reasons to run content is for a chance of getting gear.
3) It delegitimizes PvP when a major contributor to winning or losing is the gear you've bought.
4) It destroys fairness because those who are willing to spend more real life money can get more gear in the game.
5) It destroys the sense of escapism that game should offer.
6) Some people who do not want to play a game ruined in this way will quit.
So which is it?
Your hypocrisy is laughable.
Firstly, if we use your bad argument that Blizzard can use the money they made from their item and gear selling store to continue to make patches and support the game, why can't that same argument be applied for the money (or excess money) they obtain from a subscription model. The difference here is that making money with a subscription model won't destroy the game.
Secondly, you claim that a subscription model is associated with high server costs, yet you don't see how the "expenses involved in D3 would warrant one", which would imply that you know the expenses in making D3. But clearly you don't.
Thirdly, a subscription model is not an all or nothing affair. If $15 a month is excessive for D3, then they could go with, say, $3 a month.
We're still on the topic of a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store here, not a vanity store, as this is still a response to Sixen's post. Also, by definition, vanity stores would not be fair since players will have unequal access to vanity content dependent on whether they pay real life money for it our not. More on vanity stores in the next post.
I don't appreciate your humorless attempt at satire.
I never claim that the poll is a representative sample, nor do I require it be to make my point. You said that:
And I agree that in the grand scheme of things, whether the game is worth playing for me is irrelevant, but the poll demonstrates that I'm not the only person who wants no stores at all, and a majority of respondents in this website, which constitutes probably the more devoted Diablo fanbase have the same opinion. A representative sample is not required for these mere inferences that I've made.
Why does this matter? How is it relevant to the discussion.
A game doesn't have to be a financial failure to be a failure. I will guarantee you that D3 will not have a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, as Blizzard has always been unambiguously opposed to cheating and buying and selling gear for real world money. Blizzard has no plans to attempt financial suicide by introducing such a store.
Therefore, my purpose has mainly been to convince you, and others, how idiotic your opinion is.
Never insult during an argument if you wish to convince the audience.
And how do you justify this absurd claim? If vanity items are not core to the game why are there armor designers, they could just release a game with 1 armor texture. By extension of this short-sighted claim, it would be perfectly acceptable if each of the 5 classes appeared as different color cubes, and we would have to buy a character model upgrade for $20.
To claim that vanity items are not a core part of the game is brick-headed. Nearly everything you see in a game is vanity. Items and features that are purely vanity are offered freely as a core component of all Blizzard games.
You're shifting the goalpost from vanity items don't matter to vanity items aren't a core part of the game, because this is an argument you've clearly lost.
No. Even if vanity items are not a core part of the game my counter to your bad argument would still hold.
You justified selling vanity items as acceptable because it doesn't have any affect in killing monsters, which is generally considered more important. And then you argued that vanity items don't make you enjoy the game more than useful gear.
I countered by saying that the enjoyment one gets from vanity items compare to useful gear is arbitrary and subjective (especially in the case of a negligible stat increase versus a look one may want). And selling vanity items is unacceptable because it is unfair that one must pay real life money to access vanity features that do affect the enjoyment of the game.
Where in the counter do I rely on the fact that vanity items are core to the game? Nowhere, I only claim that it has an affect on ones enjoyment of the game. Your comment that my argument falls apart if vanity items are not a core part of the game is simply false. Thus my counter holds.
Do you even read?
Blizzard could easily increase the price of D3 to $70 and the expansions to $50. I'm not saying they should do this, but how is it not feasible?
I've already explained above why vanity items are not extra. D2 and WC3 do not sell vanity items and vanity features, they are a core part of the game.
D3 is not a free game.
I suggest thinking before posting.
My statement that you were replying to is the following:
I noticed that you have conveniently dodge the question. My statement still stands, it says "in order to get certain vanity items someone may want". Notice this preface, as it is key. It then says "that they be forced to pay for it through a store". Now if someone wants a vanity item from a store (again notice the preface, it starts with an "if"), is there any legal way for them to acquire this item without buying it from the store? No. Therefore, by definition, that person is forced to pay real life money if they want that item.
Collectors edition vanity items are almost as despicable, but they tend not to be as fancy or used as frequently as what is typically sold in vanity stores. Two wrongs don't make a right, so pointing to WoW and SC2 collector's edition doesn't justify anything.
And this is what is fundamentally unfair by definition. You should not be able to pay more to get more. Everyone should pay the same, even if it means that everyone has to pay more. As a result, everyone should get the same access to the entire feature set of the game, vanity or otherwise.
I've already justified why this should be the case: because D3 is a game and real life money shouldn't come into it beyond the price that everyone equally pays.
On the other hand, you've mostly been spouting nonsense throughout this thread with no justification at all.
Really? Why?
Again you make a sweeping statement with no justification.
Call it fluff all you want, the fact remains that it can affect ones enjoyment of the game, and it is unfair to charge additionally for it.
A higher game price or a subscription model is acceptable for reasons I've already explain in the above posts. These are superior revenue generating models because they do not cause the game to be unfair.
Because I don't feel like getting mean just yet.
This is the most self-indulgent post, rationalizing the "legitimacy" of cheating, that I've ever read.
1) I suspect the reason you didn't directly reply to all of my points is partly because there are some for which you can't.
2) The legitimate way to get those rare drops after being continually screwed by the RNG is buy trading up to them.
3) If part of the playerbase wants to approach the game by buying items, Blizzard correctly bans them, because they are cheaters, their actions damage the economy, the people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers, they undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game, and because legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.
4) Buying your way to the best items is cheating, it's not playing the game the way it is intended. Nor should it be the way the game is intended because striving for the best items by running content and trading is the core of Diablo gameplay.
5) You mentioned in-game economy in relation to Blizzard spending money on patching and developing content for the game. There is no connection. Blizzard doesn't gather data to see that the average price of a SOJ is 50,000 gold, and decides as a result of this that it's time to release a new dungeon, or make a patch to nerf the Wizard because she's overpowered, or open an item and gear selling store.
6) Yes, some people want to pay the game by buying and selling items, and those cheaters should all be banned.
7) The core and soul of Diablo is an loot and item trading game. Buying items circumvents the need to run content or trade, therefore it destroys the game.
8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because the game will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally.
9) It is now apparent to me that you are a cheater, or at least a sympathizer of cheaters. Thus, I have no respect for you.
Jay Wilson, D3 lead designer, on the core of Diablo:
You should do theater. You have a natural talent for drama.
You won't make a very good detective though. Your suspicions are crappy. I can reply to all of your so-called arguments but unlike you I have identified from where our perceptions differ and have thus explained to you why I can understand the rationale of a store. Of course I now know you do not have the ability to understand anything beyond your opinion.
LOL!!!
You see, you can't understand anything. Rare items are RARE. That's how the game is designed which also means that only a minority will get them, however much trading there is. So what will happen to the rest, eh? Damn you are so clueless, it's pathetic. If trading was so easy, why would people ever want to spend real-life money on items? Make some sense already besides your cheating melodrama. Seriously, I'm starting to doubt you even have a brain, nevermind a functioning one.
And ya SOJs were all totally genuine. So much that people were selling them by the hundreds.
Be careful- you could overdose on excess self-rightenousness. Oh yeah blizzard, ban them! So easy- i mean in your fairy world it must be. I'm sure all the righteous gamers who spend their days farming/trading items instantly recongize duped or bought items and must feel all heart-broken and all.
Oh the tragedy!!!
If playing the way the game is meant to be does not provide the most fun, players will find a way around. I am sure none of us skipped content here. I mean how could we possibly have done something so aweful(and against the game's philosophy) and yet enjoyed the game?
Impossible right? Oh man, seriously, get a clue.
Ya I know, selling SOJs and the appearance of Uber Diablo were PURELY coincidental.
Such empathy warms my heart.
Circumventing only for those choosing to do so. And there are good reasons for many to skip trading and some content(impossible to circumevent all content). I already mentioned that spending real life money for items that can be freely obtained will continue to be the deterrent for most people.
You are one incredible hypocrite. Whether it is legal or not, it's almost impossible to detect items that are bought, especially if they have been originally otained in a legit manner. So these stores will continue to EXIST. If the existence of such a store can't ruin a game, it can't ruin anything legal or not.
I have never cheated in D2- unless you count using mods in single player offline as cheating. But I try my best to understand all parties, something you are uncapable of.
The best you can do is label people apparently. Good luck with that.
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The fact that you or anyone else are unable to obtain a rare item in a legitimate way, within the rules of the game you agree to when making a B.net account, doesn't give you the right to cheat in order to get them. Buying and selling items is cheating.
Your assertion people should be allowed to buy items because they are unable to legitimately obtain those items by trading is a direct endorsement for cheating. It is a complete antithesis to the whole point of the game.
Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters.
If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play.
Item duplication is completely irrelevant. It is a solved issue, no item has ever been duplicated in WoW.
Not only is it easy for me to say, it's easy for Blizzard to say too. Blizzard bans item and gold buyers, they ban maphackers, they sue item and gold sellers. They are correct to take this sort of action, because all of these examples undermine how the game is intended to be played. Not banning cheaters will give an unfair advantage to cheaters at the expense of legitimate players.
You've also completely dodged the core of my argument, justifying why cheaters need to be banned:
1) Their actions damage the economy.
2) The people they buy from are scammers, hackers, and Chinese gold farmers.
3) They undermine the core of Diablo as an item trading game.
4) Legitimate players do not want to play amongst a cesspool of cheaters.
I've never claimed that cheaters are not having fun. But who is hurt? The fun they experience is derived from the unfair advantage they have over legitimate players, whether it's because they use a maphack to remove the fog of war in SC2, or because they win in PvP due to the items they have bought. In all these cases, their fun comes at the expense of legitimate and law-abiding players. Therefore, they should be banned, and Blizzard is of the same opinion.
Do you seriously think this is something that will ever be repeated again in D3? As I've already said, duplicating items is a solved issue. When's the last time Blizzard paid attention to the WoW in-game economy for anything? Never, because the in-game economy is a free market, players can do whatever they want. Do you know what actually motivates the development of content? Blizzard's development schedule, staffing, and priorities, not the in-game economy.
I have no sympathy for cheaters, and don't be surprised if most legitimate players don't either. But most importantly, Blizzard has no sympathy for cheaters. They get banned.
Then those who choose to spend the most real life money will be able to buy the best items, the most gold, the strongest PvP characters. Then the cheaters win, so I can see why this is an outcome you are in favor of.
But I can also see why this is an outcome that Blizzard will do everything in their power to stop.
I suggest that you stop using words whose meaning you clearly don't understand. Your usage of the word "hypocrite" is completely out of context, it doesn't even apply here. How in any way does your response to what you quoted, even if it were true (which it isn't), show that I'm a hypocrite? Stick to using only words that you are capable of understanding.
Again your unsophisticated thinking is not able to grasp the issue here. In D2, items already obtained in the game are illegally sold, call this (1). In what you're suggesting, D3 should have a store where Blizzard legally sells items and gear, not already in possession of any particular player, for real money, call this (2). You claimed that (1) didn't kill D2, but how then does this imply that (2) will not kill D3, when (1) is not the same as (2)?
Your argument would be valid if (1) is exactly the same as (2), but they are different.
First difference: In (1), the transaction is illegal, and as a result legitimate players are not inclined to partake in such a sale. Only a small portion of players, cheaters, do this. In (2), the transaction is completely legal, so buying items can become rampant. The best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy even more items, since Blizzard will take no action against it.
Second difference: In (1) the item is already in the game so such a transaction is harder to detect. In (2) the item is created out of nothing, and Blizzard will have a record of the items they've sold. As a result, a large amount of items will flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate, as opposed to (1) where they are controlled by a drop rate.
I understand cheaters, I understand why they do what they do, why they destroy the game, why they need to be banned, and why Blizzard agrees and rightfully bans cheaters.
If you have a valid argument why buying and selling items for real world money is not cheating, then please make it. Until then, I and many other players, are of the correct opinion that cheaters are a cancer that needs to be exterminated.
If you are in favor of vanity stores, we are not on the same side, we are mortal enemies.
If you actually have something substantive and on-topic to say, then please do.
No one in this thread has given a good reason why it is better to sell vanity items, than to not sell vanity items.
Look at the poll results, over 55% of the respondents on this website agree that there should be absolutely no store at all, including no vanity item store. One reason that has been commonly given in this thread, by myself and others, is that even vanity items are unfair. If you disagree with that argument, then why don't you make a counterargument.
Why do you think over 55% of respondents think there should be no store in D3?
Vanity items and visuals are synonymous in the sense that every visual can be made to be generated as a result of a vanity item. This is obvious, as vanity items are purely visual.
Consider a game, where the 5 classes appear as 5 differently colored cubes, and there exists a vanity item, that when acquired, changes the cube to appear as a normal looking character model. In this case, one can argue that this particular vanity item is not a core part of the game, therefore it is justifiable to charge $20 for it. It's only vanity, it doesn't affect gameplay in any way after all. Right?
This is the argument of "Vanity items do not affect gameplay and are not a core part of the game so it is acceptable to charge for it", taken to its logical extreme. Agreeing with this argument, necessarily implies agreeing with the example above.
Otherwise, you or Neckrodrac should refine your argument to "Vanity items do not affect gameplay and are not a core part of the game so it is acceptable to charge for it, as long as they do not drastically alter visuals to a point where I have arbitrarily decided that my enjoyment of the game would be hindered without it."
If it's so hilarious it shouldn't be difficult to come up with a counterargument.
Last I checked, D3 won't be free.
However, if you would like to send a free copy my way, I'll be happy to accept it. And if you send a free copy to every player, I will concede my argument is erroneous, because then D3 really is "given".
A car is not a game. If you can't articulate your argument within the confines of the discussion, instead of appealing to an analogy that doesn't even fully apply, then you need to improve your exposition skills.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Someone is spending cash earned in real-life to buy virtual items is something foolish in my eyes. Cheating? That depends on the rules. If you notice the thread title- it says 'Future of item selling'. Neither me nor you know whether these rules will change or remain the same.
In addition to referring to above reply, note that I've already given a few reasons why item selling/buying is actually so popular. The 'point' of the game does not change. The means do.
Question- How do you detect bought items if these have been legitimately obtained?
It is relevant when considering gamers' behavior in relation to rare items- the reason why I mentioned it at all. It's in context.
Blizzard is sueing any item/gold sellers because the latter are making profit off their product. That's my take on this matter. Note that I'm not saying you are wrong but that I on the other hand very much doubt that Blizzard did this to promote the game instead of their profits.
Cheaters need to be banned. Yes.
The presence of a blizzard store makes the buyers normal players.
1)Damage to the economy and item trading is impossible to assess until the game is in operation. My assumption: The consequence of spending real-life money will act as a major deterrent for many from buying from store, especially since items are freely available in-game.
2) Store means they won't have to do any of this and I believe that's what we were discussing about- the 'future' of item selling
3)If a person does not have the trading skills, they won't take this route and as you previously said, they do not even deserve that item which is on trade. Let's say that person goes to buy it in a store.
Another person who is skilled in trading comes along and gets your item(that person exists by virtue of assumption in (1). Now for that guy who bought his in a store with real-life money, the assumption that I make to determine his impact on future trading is that the spending of real-life money on that item will make said-person reluctant to part with it easily. Therefore trading won't be marred by a sudden influx of bought-items.
4)I agree(if they are cheaters as is defined by the rules in vigor at that time).
Let us stick to bought items and D3. I don't play SC2 nor heard of the maphack, so I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Those 'law-abiding' gamers are to me simply people who enjoy farming and have the time for it. It's convenient for them to play the game this way. If you want to elevate them on a pedestal for it, that's your own business. I think I've already addressed the point of 'cheaters'.
You said there was no connection. I merely showed you one example where there was a connection. I'm not trying to win this argument but you were wrong there.
From all the discussions on this board, most PvPers have prided themselves on their skill. While they have acknowledged the importance of items, I'm pretty sure D3 will have a wide range of that, so that the determinant of PvP will still primarily remain skill.
And you can't buy skill with money. I can easily imagine all true PvPers getting even more thrill from beating a guy who bought his items, since this community tends to look really highly upon challenging encounters.
Hypocrite- a person who pretends to be what he is not
That's the definition I got. And yes, I understand the meaning and it definitely applies to you. Feel free to continue to pretend you can't comprehend.
You have simply arranged (1) and (2) for your own convenience.
Let me try-
(1) Item selling did not destroy D2.
(2) Item selling will not destroy D3.
Item selling can go with either-
(3) Item selling gives blizzard money
(4) Item selling gives black market money
Just the money going into different hands.
I don't see buying items as becoming rampant for reasons already mentioned. Furthermore Blizzard cannot detect bought items as far as I know so they wouldn't have been able to take any action anyway.
I've already explained the rationale of stores and how they could work. I believe I have nothing more to add.
Your approach to this whole matter leaves much to be desired but understandable if you think the game will be unplayable should stores somehow be implemented.
That quote unfortunately makes Maka's assessment of you pretty accurate.
You don't know if these rules will change or stay the same? Are you serious? Or just completely oblivious? Blizzard has always vigorously opposed selling items and gear at every single time point in the past, and at every possible chance they have to explain why they so strongly oppose selling items and gear. There is no possibility that this will ever change. Why don't you actually read some of the things Blizzard writes about selling items and gear? Then maybe you might understand why this will never change.
Whether or not buying items and gear is popular (which is highly debatable since you have no evidence of how prevalent item buying is) doesn't change the fact that it is cheating. In a hypothetical future where it is allowed, the point of the game is completely destroyed. What's the point of trading when you'll just be beaten buy gear buyers? What's the point of collecting gear when you'll just be beaten by gear buyers? What's the point of PvP, when you'll just be beaten by gear buyers?
How is this question relevant in any way to the quote it's replying to? That is:
"Trading takes a lot of negotiating and bargaining skills, and if you are not skilled enough to trade up to the rare items you want, then you do not deserve them. And Blizzard will rightly ban cheaters who buy and sell these items for real money. They will continue to do this in D3 because it is the right thing to do. Allowing cheaters to run rampant and to take no action, would destroy the integrity of the game, as it becomes a cesspool of cheaters. If your argument in support of cheating is: not everyone can have rare items, then my response is: too bad, learn to play."
The answer is, in the example where Blizzard sells gear, they will have a list of items they've sold.
I see that you've completely dodged the point by ignoring everything I've written, and asked an irrelevant question instead.
It's not relevant to anything. You're just throwing everything out there just to see what sticks, because you're not sophisticated enough to refine your thoughts.
Your argument was that rare items are rare so that not everyone can get them. Then you randomly through out the completely irrelevant and unrelated fact that SoJs were duped. What has this got to do with rare items being rare?
And now you're saying that you talked about duped items because it related to the behavior of gamers. Why does this matter? Are you trying to say players will cheat to get rare items? If so, why didn't you just say exactly that? If players want to cheat, the correct response is not "I wonder why they cheat?" (Answer: to get an advantage over legitimate players) or "Let's sell gear because that's what they want", the correct response is Blizzard's response: Ban them.
Again, your lack of sophisticated thinking is showing. Blizzard isn't directly losing money because others are selling items and gear. Nor do they get money by closing down item and gear selling websites. Why doesn't Blizzard just open their own item and gear selling store, so that they can actually profit from it? Answer: because they are fundamentally against it.
Oh, so now you agree that Diablo 2 item buyers and sellers should be banned?
The fact that spending real life money is a deterrent to buying gear doesn't help your argument, it hurts it. The more expensive the gear, the greater the deterrent to buy it, meaning that fewer players will have bought gear, and therefore the larger the gap between gear buyers and those who do not buy gear, i.e. gear buyers will be far better off and more powerful because they have better gear than a greater proportion of the playerbase.
I can see why you want to help gear buyers and the expense of everyone else.
Items that are bought from a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store, are created out of nothing. That necessarily implies an influx of items, popping into existence, out of nothing. Your assumption that players will not trade bought items has been pulled out of your ass, it is based on nothing.
There is no point to trading, when gear buyers will have better items. Example: There is a gear store, but a player doesn't buy gear. This player wants to get a particular rare item that will make him better at PvP. The player trades items, until he eventually trades up to this rare item. Why should the player bother going through the effort of doing this since when he eventually gets this rare item, gear buyers will already have it, and other better items to beat him in PvP with?
In this example, the most effective way to be successful at the game is to buy gear instead of trading, bypassing one of the core activities of the game.
If you're not going to play the game the way it is designed and intended, within the rules of the game, which means no items and gear buying, then you deserve to get banned, because your actions hurt legitimate players. In the case where Blizzard is selling items and gear, there is no point to playing the game, there is no point to the game, because no matter what you do, unless you also buy gear, you will lose: the gear buyers will be better and more successful than you.
I'm not wrong. This is another example of you randomly spewing completely irrelevant things out. Let's go back to where this started: You said that if I wanted you to give examples of ways extra money can be used to improved the game, then you would have to wait to see what the state of the in-game economy is, in order to give those examples. This claim you made suggests that the state of the in-game economy is a relevant contributing factor to the content that gets developed for the game, not that there exists one mere example where the in-game economy was partially responsible for the development of content.
I can clearly see that you've never played any seriously competitive sports or games. In a competitive game, competitive players will do everything they are legally (or sometimes illegally) allowed, in order to win. The most competitive PvP players will be forced to buy gear to compete with other competitive PvP players. The most serious and competitive players will not be gimping themselves and be relying on skill alone, they will rely on both skill and gear, since others just as skilled as them will have bought gear to remain competitive.
In SC2, Korean professional tournament players don't say to themselves, "I will win with skill, and therefore not spend the money to hire a coach". They will spend the money to hire a coach, because other professional tournament players have coaches, and skill plus coach will give them a greater chance of winning than skill alone. Just as skill plus buying gear will give a greater chance of winning than skill alone. The most competitive PvP players would be obligated to buy gear, and the most successful PvP players will be gear buyers who just happen to be very skilled.
Here's the quote you were replying to when you called me a hypocrite:
"8) You've failed to grasp the fundamental difference between D2 and the D3 you're suggesting. D2 survived because item buying and selling is illegal. D3 will not survive if item and gear selling is legal, because it will have essentially no point when cheaters can simply buy the best gear for real life money, legally."
Where in that quote have I pretended to be something I'm not? In fact, where in this entire thread have I pretended to be something I'm not?
Let me give you a correct example of the usage of the word "hypocrite": If I were on the Blizzard web team, gleefully making those ads you can see on the WoW site to sell the sparkly pony mount for $20, then that would make me a hypocrite, given what I've written in this thread.
Again you're randomly throwing things out there.
I haven't arranged anything. You said: item selling didn't kill D2, so item selling won't kill D3. But item selling in D2 is NOT THE SAME as item selling in D3 (the hypothetical Blizzard-run item selling store). The effect of item selling in D2, says NOTHING about the effect of item selling in D3, because they are NOT THE SAME THING.
What you've written there makes no sense. Your (1) does NOT imply (2) because, they are different things.
No, it's not as simple as just money going into different hands, there are 2 fundamental differences you've failed to account for: Firstly, item selling in D2 just changes the owner of an already existing item, item selling in D3 (as hypothesized) will create an item out of nothing. Secondly, item selling in D2 is illegal, item selling in D3 (as hypothesized) will be legal. Therefore, they are different.
This causes far more complicated effects than simply money going into different hands.
Given that the best way to remain competitive with item buyers is to buy items, you're delusional if you can't see that item buying will become rampant, at least amongst the serious and competitive players.
In the case of a Blizzard-run item selling store, they CAN exactly tell what items have been bought. They created those items out of nothing, for the very purpose of letting them be bought. Are you so stupid you can't see this obvious fact?
It's not whether Blizzard can detect bought items that is important, it's the fact that Blizzard would create an item out of nothing, every time someone enters their credit card details, allowing these items to flood the economy at an uncontrollable rate. There is no feasible way to control the amount of items people buy, the same way one can control a drop rate.
You haven't explained anything. All you've done is suggest that people want to buy items so they should be able to, while throwing completely random and irrelevant statements and making objectively false claims about the effects of a Blizzard-run item and gear selling store.
I don't care what he, nor you, thinks of me. Especially since neither one of you have countered a single one of my arguments.
Throughout this whole thing you are convinced that all or most players are on your side, along with blizzard. Yet you continue getting your panties in a mix over a hypothetical situation even though you are supposedly sure item selling store will never be in the game.
Like, I am 100% sure something won't ever happen but hey you know what, I will still rage about it. You've got some serious issues.
You jumped into the thread with that shitty attitude you know better than everybody when you simply don't.
None of my claims are false, you idiot. They cannot be- something you have yet to grasp. They are only for people to consider while you've been on this whole crusade about how you are absolutely right and I am wrong. There is plenty of messed-up material with what you've just written right now but I'll skip over it. I tried at one point in getting this deal level and explained a possibility, but dealing with maniacs become extremely boring after a while.
A Blizzard-run item and gear selling store will never happen, but that's not going to stop me from pointing out your erroneous claims.