All I know about crits is at base it's double dmg when it hits. I know this doesn't help much... Plus it doesn't matter how much it takes to raise by 1% because it dilutes as you lvl so if you're lvl 29 you may have 50% chance to crit and then at lvl 30 you now have 49%
It would be hard to find out the real scaling of precision with all lvls since we cant reach 60. And also even if we find out how much precision gives you 1% crit, its still beta it might change anytime. It would be a good question to ask when people start reaching 60.
Different characters start with different amounts of precision, so it varies. Lvl 1 Wizard has 3.67% chance to crit against lvl 1 monsters, and 11 precision. Barb has 9 precision and 3.00% chance. Didn't feel like looking at all the characters, but if you wanted something more specific let me know.
Different characters start with different amounts of precision, so it varies. Lvl 1 Wizard has 3.67% chance to crit against lvl 1 monsters, and 11 precision. Barb has 9 precision and 3.00% chance. Didn't feel like looking at all the characters, but if you wanted something more specific let me know.
so there is no base crit? your only crit chance is based off of how much precision you have?
the reason i wanted to find out is because if i wanted to make a "crit build" and stack nothing but precision i wanted to see how high i could theoretically get. looking at gems and enchants you can easily get 1500+ precision and that doesnt include your base stats or if precision is already on some of you items.
it would be nice if every 100 precision at lvl 60 gave 1% crit. but i doubt it. probaly be more like every 200 precision gives 1%
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I don't know here are my calculations so far, I didn't agree with some of what was written in the post on us.battle.net.
Please make any comment if I did a mistake:
The idea is that if you have p chance to crit for Y% damage (double damage is Y=2) then your expected damage is
p*Y*basedmg*attackbonus + (1-p)*basedmg*attackbonus = (Yp + (1-p)) * basedmg*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) * basedmg*attackbonus
Where attackbonus = (1 + attack)
1 attack = 1% more damage, therefore for p constant an increase in 1 attack gives you:
The question is when does Z*(Y-1)*basedmg*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) * basedmg*1% which is the point where 1 attack = 1 precision (the benefit from both is equal).
We can get rid of "basedmg" to make the question :
When does Z*(Y-1)*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) 1% ?
So when does it happen, obviously this depends both on p and attackbonus, but both increases their side of the equation so it means the higher p is the more precision you need to equal 1 attack but the more attackbonus you have the less precision it takes for 1 precision = 1 attack.
Let's take a realistic example:
Let's say I'm at 5% crit chance (p=0.05) and that 1 precision increases my crit chance by 0.1% (10 precision = 1% crit). How much attack does it takes for precision to become equal to 1 attack.
Using the equation with Y=2 (double crit damage):
Z*attackbonus = (1+p) 1%
we have attackbonus = (1.05)*0.01/0.001 = 10.5
So remember attackbonus = 1 + attack (in %) so 10.5 is actually a score of 950 attack !! (I verified with an Excel spreadsheet).
Beyond that point 1 precision is better than 1 attack though.
Let's look at the influence of other variables.
If I take Y=3 I get the required attackbonus (with same Z and same p) of 5.5 or in other words 450 attack bonus.
For Y=4 it goes down to 283.
If I take p=0.1 (10% crit) the required attackbonus increases to 11 or 1000 attack required.
If I take Z = 0.0005 (20 precision for 1% crit) it goes up to 2000 attack.
One can get derivative formulas easily by expressing each variable function of others using the equation then make a derivative from that and make graphics etc. But I won't.
TLDR:
- We only speak here of expected BASE DAMAGGE. Of course there is absolutly no consideration of crit making your next skill better etc so please do not discard the work though and still draw your own conclusions based on what you can guess, if crit gives you more bonuses you can adjust the Y value according to your own needs.
- The more +crit% damage you get the lower the point where precision become better is, I even thinks it gets into a very reasonable level when your crit are +200% and above (triple damage).
- The more precision you have the less effective it become
- If precision gives less and less crit as you level up, the ammount of attack needed to make it valuable also goes up at the same speed (if you need twice more precision for 1% crit, you will need twice more attack to make it valuable).
- With Y=2 attack is a far better stat when only considering this situation.
- The point where precision is as good as attack can be found with
When does Z*(Y-1)*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) 1% ?
Z is how much 1 precision gives you in crit % (if 10precision for 1 crit Z = 0.001). p is your actual crit% and Y is the multiplicator for crit damage (double damage Y =2). Also remember that a value of say 5 for attackbonus means 500% damage or 400
- Going all precision seems kinda meh unless you don't need crazy values like 100 precision for 1 crit it would make crit SOOOOOOOOO underpowered. You will also need to stack a shitload of +crit damage. When we know more, like how much precision it takes to make 1% crit you can use this, adjust the Y to fit your needs and see if this is valuable or not. It will also help if we know if attack levels suggested etc are reachable with the gear.
From a post in the bastion's keeps forum. He said that the amount of precision required to get to 1% made it a useless stat to go for.
I don't know which thread, I just remember reading it there.
in overall dmg output of course attack is much better to stack then precision.
but from a builds point of view such as the throw barb build in my signature (changed to melee WD now :P), it relies completely on fury generators with CD's to get initial fury and then while on CD it relies completely on getting crits with weapon throw to return 20 fury so im not going for max dmg output, im going for max crit to get max fury output from my passive "no escape". if i can stack crit high enough i should be able to throw endlessly once using initial fury generators.
battle rage 4% crit + both passive 5% crits = 14% crit and if i could stack another 16-19% crit for around 30-33% crit i could throw dozens of times before needing to get more fury because every 1 weapon throw crit = possible 2 more weapon throws since no escape returns double fury
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
From a post in the bastion's keeps forum. He said that the amount of precision required to get to 1% made it a useless stat to go for.
I don't know which thread, I just remember reading it there.
in overall dmg output of course attack is much better to stack then precision.
but from a builds point of view such as the throw barb build in my signature, it relies completely on fury generators with CD's to get initial fury and then while on CD it relies completely on getting crits with weapon throw to return 20 fury so im not going for max dmg output, im going for max crit to get max fury output from my passive "no escape". if i can stack crit high enough i should be able to throw endlessly once using initial fury generators.
battle rage 4% crit + both passive 5% crits = 14% crit and if i could stack another 16-19% crit for around 30-33% crit i could throw dozens of times before needing to get more fury because every 1 weapon throw crit = possible 2 more weapon throws since no escape returns double fury
We get the idea of such builds the problem is even with those the output is better if you gear toward attack. You get your critchance out of your skills, this is 100% fine, but sacrificing say 500 attack to get 500 precision isn't worth it.
Well to be fair it is not worth it if you do not have a minimum of attack already, once you reach this minimum its fine to go precision. The question is still unanswered if these kind of builds lower this minimum low enough to make it good.
We get the idea of such builds the problem is even with those the output is better if you gear toward attack. You get your critchance out of your skills, this is 100% fine, but sacrificing say 500 attack to get 500 precision isn't worth it.
Well to be fair it is not worth it if you do not have a minimum of attack already, once you reach this minimum its fine to go precision. The question is still unanswered if these kind of builds lower this minimum low enough to make it good.
did you read everything i said? i said its NOT for damage its for FURY generation from "no escape" passive on crits.... so completely take dmg out of the equation. in order for my build to work ill need tons of crit.
i want to constantly stay away from mobs and just spam weapon throw, in order for that to be possible i need an insane amount of crit. and having to constantly run up to mobs and do overpower for a 5 second crit increase or wait for revenge to proc for a 10 second crit increase id like to be able to constantly kite around and never have to melee creeps, 100% ranged barb is what im shooting for and thats not possible without a crazy high average crit at all times.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
All I know about crits is at base it's double dmg when it hits. I know this doesn't help much... Plus it doesn't matter how much it takes to raise by 1% because it dilutes as you lvl so if you're lvl 29 you may have 50% chance to crit and then at lvl 30 you now have 49%
Wrong. It does 50% more damage from the normal attack.(So 150% damage), you can get a stat that increases your crit damage. Normally it's 200% damage in most games, but not in D3, without stats.
We get the idea of such builds the problem is even with those the output is better if you gear toward attack. You get your critchance out of your skills, this is 100% fine, but sacrificing say 500 attack to get 500 precision isn't worth it.
Well to be fair it is not worth it if you do not have a minimum of attack already, once you reach this minimum its fine to go precision. The question is still unanswered if these kind of builds lower this minimum low enough to make it good.
did you read everything i said? i said its NOT for damage its for FURY generation from "no escape" passive on crits.... so completely take dmg out of the equation. in order for my build to work ill need tons of crit.
i want to constantly stay away from mobs and just spam weapon throw, in order for that to be possible i need an insane amount of crit. and having to constantly run up to mobs and do overpower for a 5 second crit increase or wait for revenge to proc for a 10 second crit increase id like to be able to constantly kite around and never have to melee creeps, 100% ranged barb is what im shooting for and thats not possible without a crazy high average crit at all times.
Yep. That's something that doesn't show up in the plain math analysis. There are a LOT of utility benefits to crit across the classes/runes. Some people want to crit for reasons unrelated to damage (life leech, cooldown supression, resource generation, CC, etc). The damage is just a perk. I kinda wish more classes had more weird options for crit builds. And Doctors need SOMETHING for crit.
We get the idea of such builds the problem is even with those the output is better if you gear toward attack. You get your critchance out of your skills, this is 100% fine, but sacrificing say 500 attack to get 500 precision isn't worth it.
Well to be fair it is not worth it if you do not have a minimum of attack already, once you reach this minimum its fine to go precision. The question is still unanswered if these kind of builds lower this minimum low enough to make it good.
did you read everything i said? i said its NOT for damage its for FURY generation from "no escape" passive on crits.... so completely take dmg out of the equation. in order for my build to work ill need tons of crit.
i want to constantly stay away from mobs and just spam weapon throw, in order for that to be possible i need an insane amount of crit. and having to constantly run up to mobs and do overpower for a 5 second crit increase or wait for revenge to proc for a 10 second crit increase id like to be able to constantly kite around and never have to melee creeps, 100% ranged barb is what im shooting for and thats not possible without a crazy high average crit at all times.
So you want to spam weapon throw that hit for nothing, I get that ok
I guess if you really want to try such crazy builds thats fine, I just doubt its effective, otherwise straight up damage build will be overpowered in comparison. Well not Build, maybe your build works and it looks fine to me, Im just not convinced by a full precision gear no matter what. But it should be fine as long as you get sufficient attack.
All I know about crits is at base it's double dmg when it hits. I know this doesn't help much... Plus it doesn't matter how much it takes to raise by 1% because it dilutes as you lvl so if you're lvl 29 you may have 50% chance to crit and then at lvl 30 you now have 49%
Wrong. It does 50% more damage from the normal attack.(So 150% damage), you can get a stat that increases your crit damage. Normally it's 200% damage in most games, but not in D3, without stats.
ty for the link. but again dmg will come with gear and +attack from gear and increasing my crit dmg by over 100% will make it worth stacking mostly precision w/ the fury benefit. with criting over 1/3rd of the time for 260% dmg i hardly consider that "nothing", of course stacking attack instead of precision will make it hit harder more often but with a 2.6x crit dmg and it returning double fury from my passive its 100% worth it JUST in the case of this specific no-melee throw barb build.
you see with this build it wouldnt matter if i could one shot mobs with weapon throw because if im not critting ill run out of fury super fast and be screwed or have to get a melee fury generator and use it a lot constantly putting me in danger in higher difficulties. with spamming WT i constantly keep mobs slowed and kite them so i dont insta die in inferno lol. obviously i cant avoid being hit completely especially with mobs bum rushing me in inferno so when they do i do revenge for an extra ~26% crit (lvl 7 rune) and will be critting over half of the time.
i do 100% agree though that without both the +50% crit dmg bonus passive AND crit dmg bonus enchantment that stacking precision is completely useless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
In the last beta patch, the actual ratio might be 1600 Precision for 100% chance to crit. I can't confirm it though ..
You have source or is it only observation and assuming linear relationship ? Also what level ? 13 ?
Yep. That's something that doesn't show up in the plain math analysis. There are a LOT of utility benefits to crit across the classes/runes. Some people want to crit for reasons unrelated to damage (life leech, cooldown supression, resource generation, CC, etc). The damage is just a perk. I kinda wish more classes had more weird options for crit builds. And Doctors need SOMETHING for crit.
Sure it doesn't show up. I agree you may want crit for utility etc and getting crit out of passives or skill is just fine for that, but right now going precision for utility, proc or whatever feel so much underwhelming than going for attack, in a huge way. And if you want precision that's fine but it doesn't seem good to sacrifice attack for it.
On the other hand I think there will be very strong +crit damage gear (problem is, we don't know yet but beta haas already some +20% so maybe later there will be huge ones like +80% or smth) and it will make the minimum attack required go a lot lower to get to the point where precision is better.
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i know ive heard it really sucks but honestly how much exactly does it take?
EDIT: also does anyone know what your base crit chance is?
well does anyone know what your BASE crit chance is in the beta?
so there is no base crit? your only crit chance is based off of how much precision you have?
the reason i wanted to find out is because if i wanted to make a "crit build" and stack nothing but precision i wanted to see how high i could theoretically get. looking at gems and enchants you can easily get 1500+ precision and that doesnt include your base stats or if precision is already on some of you items.
it would be nice if every 100 precision at lvl 60 gave 1% crit. but i doubt it. probaly be more like every 200 precision gives 1%
Please make any comment if I did a mistake:
The idea is that if you have p chance to crit for Y% damage (double damage is Y=2) then your expected damage is
p*Y*basedmg*attackbonus + (1-p)*basedmg*attackbonus = (Yp + (1-p)) * basedmg*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) * basedmg*attackbonus
Where attackbonus = (1 + attack)
1 attack = 1% more damage, therefore for p constant an increase in 1 attack gives you:
(1+p(Y-1))*basedmg*(attackbonus+1%) - (1+p(Y-1))*basedmg*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) * basedmg*1%
more damage
Whereas let's say 1 precision = Z crit chance (for example Z=0.1%=0.001 crit chance), therefore p become (p+Z) and overall damage is increased by
(1+(p+Z)(Y-1))*basedmg*attackbonus - (1+p(Y-1))*basedmg*attackbonus = Z*(Y-1)*basedmg*attackbonus
So what does it mean :
The question is when does Z*(Y-1)*basedmg*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) * basedmg*1% which is the point where 1 attack = 1 precision (the benefit from both is equal).
We can get rid of "basedmg" to make the question :
When does Z*(Y-1)*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) 1% ?
So when does it happen, obviously this depends both on p and attackbonus, but both increases their side of the equation so it means the higher p is the more precision you need to equal 1 attack but the more attackbonus you have the less precision it takes for 1 precision = 1 attack.
Let's take a realistic example:
Let's say I'm at 5% crit chance (p=0.05) and that 1 precision increases my crit chance by 0.1% (10 precision = 1% crit). How much attack does it takes for precision to become equal to 1 attack.
Using the equation with Y=2 (double crit damage):
Z*attackbonus = (1+p) 1%
we have attackbonus = (1.05)*0.01/0.001 = 10.5
So remember attackbonus = 1 + attack (in %) so 10.5 is actually a score of 950 attack !! (I verified with an Excel spreadsheet).
Beyond that point 1 precision is better than 1 attack though.
Let's look at the influence of other variables.
If I take Y=3 I get the required attackbonus (with same Z and same p) of 5.5 or in other words 450 attack bonus.
For Y=4 it goes down to 283.
If I take p=0.1 (10% crit) the required attackbonus increases to 11 or 1000 attack required.
If I take Z = 0.0005 (20 precision for 1% crit) it goes up to 2000 attack.
One can get derivative formulas easily by expressing each variable function of others using the equation then make a derivative from that and make graphics etc. But I won't.
TLDR:
- We only speak here of expected BASE DAMAGGE. Of course there is absolutly no consideration of crit making your next skill better etc so please do not discard the work though and still draw your own conclusions based on what you can guess, if crit gives you more bonuses you can adjust the Y value according to your own needs.
- The more +crit% damage you get the lower the point where precision become better is, I even thinks it gets into a very reasonable level when your crit are +200% and above (triple damage).
- The more precision you have the less effective it become
- If precision gives less and less crit as you level up, the ammount of attack needed to make it valuable also goes up at the same speed (if you need twice more precision for 1% crit, you will need twice more attack to make it valuable).
- With Y=2 attack is a far better stat when only considering this situation.
- The point where precision is as good as attack can be found with
When does Z*(Y-1)*attackbonus = (1+p(Y-1)) 1% ?
Z is how much 1 precision gives you in crit % (if 10precision for 1 crit Z = 0.001). p is your actual crit% and Y is the multiplicator for crit damage (double damage Y =2). Also remember that a value of say 5 for attackbonus means 500% damage or 400
- Going all precision seems kinda meh unless you don't need crazy values like 100 precision for 1 crit it would make crit SOOOOOOOOO underpowered. You will also need to stack a shitload of +crit damage. When we know more, like how much precision it takes to make 1% crit you can use this, adjust the Y to fit your needs and see if this is valuable or not. It will also help if we know if attack levels suggested etc are reachable with the gear.
in overall dmg output of course attack is much better to stack then precision.
but from a builds point of view such as the throw barb build in my signature (changed to melee WD now :P), it relies completely on fury generators with CD's to get initial fury and then while on CD it relies completely on getting crits with weapon throw to return 20 fury so im not going for max dmg output, im going for max crit to get max fury output from my passive "no escape". if i can stack crit high enough i should be able to throw endlessly once using initial fury generators.
battle rage 4% crit + both passive 5% crits = 14% crit and if i could stack another 16-19% crit for around 30-33% crit i could throw dozens of times before needing to get more fury because every 1 weapon throw crit = possible 2 more weapon throws since no escape returns double fury
We get the idea of such builds the problem is even with those the output is better if you gear toward attack. You get your critchance out of your skills, this is 100% fine, but sacrificing say 500 attack to get 500 precision isn't worth it.
Well to be fair it is not worth it if you do not have a minimum of attack already, once you reach this minimum its fine to go precision. The question is still unanswered if these kind of builds lower this minimum low enough to make it good.
did you read everything i said? i said its NOT for damage its for FURY generation from "no escape" passive on crits.... so completely take dmg out of the equation. in order for my build to work ill need tons of crit.
i want to constantly stay away from mobs and just spam weapon throw, in order for that to be possible i need an insane amount of crit. and having to constantly run up to mobs and do overpower for a 5 second crit increase or wait for revenge to proc for a 10 second crit increase id like to be able to constantly kite around and never have to melee creeps, 100% ranged barb is what im shooting for and thats not possible without a crazy high average crit at all times.
Also OP, check this link: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3881719243
Yep. That's something that doesn't show up in the plain math analysis. There are a LOT of utility benefits to crit across the classes/runes. Some people want to crit for reasons unrelated to damage (life leech, cooldown supression, resource generation, CC, etc). The damage is just a perk. I kinda wish more classes had more weird options for crit builds. And Doctors need SOMETHING for crit.
So you want to spam weapon throw that hit for nothing, I get that ok
I guess if you really want to try such crazy builds thats fine, I just doubt its effective, otherwise straight up damage build will be overpowered in comparison. Well not Build, maybe your build works and it looks fine to me, Im just not convinced by a full precision gear no matter what. But it should be fine as long as you get sufficient attack.
ty for the link. but again dmg will come with gear and +attack from gear and increasing my crit dmg by over 100% will make it worth stacking mostly precision w/ the fury benefit. with criting over 1/3rd of the time for 260% dmg i hardly consider that "nothing", of course stacking attack instead of precision will make it hit harder more often but with a 2.6x crit dmg and it returning double fury from my passive its 100% worth it JUST in the case of this specific no-melee throw barb build.
you see with this build it wouldnt matter if i could one shot mobs with weapon throw because if im not critting ill run out of fury super fast and be screwed or have to get a melee fury generator and use it a lot constantly putting me in danger in higher difficulties. with spamming WT i constantly keep mobs slowed and kite them so i dont insta die in inferno lol. obviously i cant avoid being hit completely especially with mobs bum rushing me in inferno so when they do i do revenge for an extra ~26% crit (lvl 7 rune) and will be critting over half of the time.
i do 100% agree though that without both the +50% crit dmg bonus passive AND crit dmg bonus enchantment that stacking precision is completely useless.
You have source or is it only observation and assuming linear relationship ? Also what level ? 13 ?
Sure it doesn't show up. I agree you may want crit for utility etc and getting crit out of passives or skill is just fine for that, but right now going precision for utility, proc or whatever feel so much underwhelming than going for attack, in a huge way. And if you want precision that's fine but it doesn't seem good to sacrifice attack for it.
On the other hand I think there will be very strong +crit damage gear (problem is, we don't know yet but beta haas already some +20% so maybe later there will be huge ones like +80% or smth) and it will make the minimum attack required go a lot lower to get to the point where precision is better.