All your points are just moot though if they just make it a ridiculous amount to cast, This makes it ten times better than a 2min cooldown because A you prob will forget about the skill in the heat of battle causing you to use it like once every 5 minutes. B With an insane resource cost you'll actually help it because remember there are no more pots, well there are they just aren't as readily available and those should have cooldowns like 2 min, but if you pick up a mana orb or recharge your fury all the way you should be able to use the skill without worry. This way you get to use it but only if you have enough resources which doesn't accumulate over time. like with the Wizard in order to get those big skills usable you must build up arcane power by using the lower tier skills that build but don't take, If i build it all the way up just to not be able to use it what was the point in me building it up... NOTHING! Its the same with mana, If I have 250/300 mana i should be able to use my awesome gargantuan spell, wichh i then have to kill mobs just tofind a damn mana orb, to do what nothing because i have to wait 2 minutes to cast cooler spells. The most effective way to combat spamming of OP spells is ridiculous resource cost. They'll be available to the player but still not spammable. Whereas with a cooldown you're required to wait which blows because you could be using a cool spell but are forced to use a shittier more uncool spell.
Making the top skills a "rediculous" amount to cast is a horrible idea. All this does is stop all skills from being cast for this one big one. You would have to stock pile your resource stopping you from casting spells. Then, you dump it all on one spell leaving you with 0 resource which again leaves you unable to cast any spells.
BTW, there are no more mana globes in the game so quick recovery for some class will not be that easy.
I also don't get why 2 min seems so long to some people. Yes, its not instant but 2 min just doesn't seem that long to me. Watch any game play video and time out every two minutes. That leaves you with plenty of opportunities to use these heavy hitters without them taking over your skill selection. you still have 6 other skills to rotate through in the mean time.
I dislike cooldowns... cop out in game design if you ask me. Then you start playing whackamole.
I want to choose my skills because they're GOOD, not because the best skill has a huge cooldown and I need something to cast while it's down.
It still works, to an extent, but if you played certain champions in LoL, you'd know that some of them the entire kit is: "Press all buttons as fast as possible". I avoid them like fire, too.
What would you suggest then to stop players from choosing all three top level skills?
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What would you suggest then to stop players from choosing all three top level skills?
Don't make them unbalanced? The idea that they had from the start? Even Diablo II had some level 1 skills that sometimes were more effective than level 30 skills (teeth).
One of the major complaints people have had about Diablo 2 was "All I did was spam the same skill over and over. I wish other skills were still viable". Well this makes other skills viable and keeps you using multiple things (and thinking about what to use in the process) as opposed to just mashing the same button over and over.
Or you could just make skills do different things.
Different levels of damage, AoE reach, frequency, length of cast. + defensive spells, + resistances and spells useful for different resistances. On-click spells vs spells you have to aim. Spells that drain tons of mana vs cheap spells. Spells that complement other spells or your character in general.
There are several distinct classes which do not cross each other:
- Damage (short cast spells and long cast spells, + different resource costs); different ranges
- AoE (fire walls, circles, novas, cones, rays)
- summons
- CC (slow, stun, freeze, w/e)
- curse (weaken armor/resistance/etc.)
- improve self (faster attack speed or mana regen or armor or what have you)
- defensive (spell shields, Slow Time)
- positional (bone/zombie wall, push/pull, stack, teleport, leap, random and non-random blink)
- switch (shapeshift)
None of these need cooldowns between each other. And Diablo III ALREADY has a huge array of very different amazing spells:
Witch doctor's sacrifice minion thing synergizes perfectly with his summons.
Wizard has slow time and stuff, tons of AoE.
Barbarian has a range of skills that are on different cast timers seemingly with no cooldowns if you look at the first gameplay video.
Demon Hunter has a lot of AoE and rolls and stuff.
These games have two modes of play - single target (boss) and masses of monsters (normal). The boss fight should utilize the various secondary (non-damage) spells the most, and they should be used because if you don't use them you'll get smashed. Last thing I want to see is spamming 5 spells on whackamole instead of spamming 1 spell, yay cooldowns.
In PvE MP you could go for an extreme build like max out higher tier higher CD higher damage skill + increase damage rune + increase damage traits so you can unleash Hell on enemies.
Your partners would act as your shield while your CD expires then you could kick in and be the "one shot/one kill" man.
Or at least reduce the enemies lifepoints so much than they became easy meat.
Guess it could be used even in PvP but I've the feeling CD will work quite different in the Arena.
I am having a hard time looking for the words to explain why 2mins. cd is way to long for a game like D3 so I'm just going to say that I'm against it and hopefully the longest cd in D3 is only around 20 secs, maybe even lower. If its too powerful then nerf it now so it doesn't need to be a long cd. I don't need an oops button since each class already has a way to escape danger. Believe me guys 2 mins is just too long. I can't wait for beta so people can realize this sooner than later.
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I love all loot fest kind of game! I will be playing all of them for the next few years. Loot fest games I'm looking forward to: LotR: War in the North,Torchlight 2,Borderlands 2 and of course Diablo 3.
One of the major complaints people have had about Diablo 2 was "All I did was spam the same skill over and over. I wish other skills were still viable". Well this makes other skills viable and keeps you using multiple things (and thinking about what to use in the process) as opposed to just mashing the same button over and over.
Or you could just make skills do different things.
Different levels of damage, AoE reach, frequency, length of cast. + defensive spells, + resistances and spells useful for different resistances. On-click spells vs spells you have to aim. Spells that drain tons of mana vs cheap spells. Spells that complement other spells or your character in general.
There are several distinct classes which do not cross each other:
- Damage (short cast spells and long cast spells, + different resource costs); different ranges
- AoE (fire walls, circles, novas, cones, rays)
- summons
- CC (slow, stun, freeze, w/e)
- curse (weaken armor/resistance/etc.)
- improve self (faster attack speed or mana regen or armor or what have you)
- defensive (spell shields, Slow Time)
- positional (bone/zombie wall, push/pull, stack, teleport, leap, random and non-random blink)
- switch (shapeshift)
None of these need cooldowns between each other. And Diablo III ALREADY has a huge array of very different amazing spells:
Witch doctor's sacrifice minion thing synergizes perfectly with his summons.
Wizard has slow time and stuff, tons of AoE.
Barbarian has a range of skills that are on different cast timers seemingly with no cooldowns if you look at the first gameplay video.
Demon Hunter has a lot of AoE and rolls and stuff.
These games have two modes of play - single target (boss) and masses of monsters (normal). The boss fight should utilize the various secondary (non-damage) spells the most, and they should be used because if you don't use them you'll get smashed. Last thing I want to see is spamming 5 spells on whackamole instead of spamming 1 spell, yay cooldowns.
I don't get what this has to do with cooldowns. Read the level 26 spells for the Barbarian.
Do any of those seem like 'bad' or 'poorly designed' skills to you? Do any of them seem like they are ridiculous to have on cooldown? So if they weren't on cooldown you could constantly have three summons jumping around you destroying enemies, your damage/speed/etc would all be upped and the screen would constantly be shaking with everything taking damage.
Oh that's right, you have the absolutely awful idea of just 'making them cost a lot'. You realize if they costed that much, they would likely either be useless or encourage painfully boring game play since people would just sit there attacking normally to save up enough of their resource to cast one super powerful spell?
It's not like they are saying all skills are going to have cooldowns. I doubt you are going to have to wait minutes at a time to 'bash' a monster or use 'frenzy'. They have plenty of basic attack skills, buffs, etc. They are looking to add even more diversity to the game by putting some skills in that have long cooldowns and should be used a little more strategically. I'm sure 4-5 of your skills will have no cooldown (or something like .5 seconds), while 2-3 skills will have a cooldown that doesn't allow them to be spammed.
I don't think that's a cop out or bad game design, it's just another way to implement more skills and make more skills useful.
In PvE MP you could go for an extreme build like max out higher tier higher CD higher damage skill + increase damage rune + increase damage traits so you can unleash Hell on enemies.
And we come back where we started.
This skill should simply not exist. There should be no bone spear, no whirlwind. If renditions of these skills are to exist, they should be comparable to other skills. I want to spec into Locust Swarm for all I care but it should be viable not a "low level skill you pick to fill your cooldowns", hello, game design? Ever heard of Nox, Blizzard? Or too stuck in the gutter with your WoW where everything is on cooldown and the DPS class is insanely boring to play save for the occasional frost trap?
You guys realize that a "rotation" (the staple of everything in WoW) is the same as spamming the same skill over and over?
Do any of those seem like 'bad' or 'poorly designed' skills to you? Do any of them seem like they are ridiculous to have on cooldown? So if they weren't on cooldown you could constantly have three summons jumping around you destroying enemies, your damage/speed/etc would all be upped and the screen would constantly be shaking with everything taking damage.
If people are able to spam ANYTHING wtf do we have mana for? I know in DII you could get infinite mana due to items but this is not DII. Mana/Fury/Spirit/w/e is back to being a resource.
You realize if they costed that much, they would likely either be useless or encourage painfully boring game play since people would just sit there attacking normally to save up enough of their resource to cast one super powerful spell?
You realize that if you sit there attacking normally you should die? That's a game difficulty issue, not the spell system issue. People should be confronted with enemies and have to deal with them, not run around the enemy in circles. Honestly, what you described there occurs with cooldowns, as well, especially if the 2ndary spells are not very effective. See what some guy said about picking one spell, supercharging it, and lowering CD's, and then juts using that spell for everything.
It's not like they are saying all skills are going to have cooldowns. I doubt you are going to have to wait minutes at a time to 'bash' a monster or use 'frenzy'. They have plenty of basic attack skills, buffs, etc. They are looking to add even more diversity to the game by putting some skills in that have long cooldowns and should be used a little more strategically.
Maybe, I'm afraid of WoW influence, where everything is on cooldown and people use rotations.
Cooldowns work sometimes, in some situations, but the argument that Blizzard used, and the way they presented them (1 skill per tier, avoid spamming), worries me, because it sounds they made purposefully overpowered spells and put them on cooldown, which is specifically what I do not want. Not only does that kill thousands of builds and lower gameplay to a rotation, it also means the game is incredibly easy.
I am having a hard time looking for the words to explain why 2mins. cd is way to long for a game like D3 so I'm just going to say that I'm against it and hopefully the longest cd in D3 is only around 20 secs, maybe even lower. If its too powerful then nerf it now so it doesn't need to be a long cd. I don't need an oops button since each class already has a way to escape danger. Believe me guys 2 mins is just too long. I can't wait for beta so people can realize this sooner than later.
As of right now I disagree. I don't think you can really say 'two minute cooldown is too long in a game like Diablo III.' The only concrete thing we really know is that Diablo III is an ARPG in the Diablo franchise. I think you're trying to overlay the original two games' mechanics onto Diablo III. The style is similar, but I think their approach to their design around the mechanics of combat has changed, and I think people who are expecting a carbon copy of Diablo II's combat system in Diablo III will be surprised at the differences.
I'll just use a lose example of how much different Diablo I combat and Diablo II combat was, particularly for the physical damage classes. On top of being able to learn all the same spells as the Sorcerer from spellbooks, the Warrior and the Rogue each had one attack altered only by their increased attack speed. There wasn't any Strafe or Multi Shot or Frenzy or Whirlwind. There was click-click-click swing-shoot-swing-shoot. Look at how Diablo II's combat evolve to be much broader than it's predecessor. I'm not saying that a thing like added high cooldowns to super powerful abilities is going to make the same kind of impact on combat as the ability trees did between Diablo I and II, but I have high hopes and am confident that Blizzard is on the right track and making the right decisions when it comes down to it.
However there's always a chance that you're right and the cooldowns do need to be changed. In that case I'm sure Blizzard will tweak them so they feel just right.
Look at how Diablo II's combat evolve to be much broader than it's predecessor.
*Loads up Tesladin*
click-click-click
It didn't evolve anywhere.
There are some few classes where it actually evolved a bit (assassin), but for most it's still click click click of some degree. The ADVANCEMENT thing is what evolved.
As for the Diablo comment, he is saying it's a fast paced game, which, according even to Blizzard, it is, and 2 minute cooldowns are a bit strange. I recall they wanted to put a cooldown on teleport for some reason, even though the spell never was an issue in other games, even in rather spammable forms. CC all the way.
If people are able to spam ANYTHING wtf do we have mana for? I know in DII you could get infinite mana due to items but this is not DII. Mana/Fury/Spirit/w/e is back to being a resource.
I never said you shouldn't be able to spam anything. I clearly addressed that later in my post saying most skills will be able to be spammed... I think that's fairly obvious.
You realize that if you sit there attacking normally you should die? That's a game difficulty issue, not the spell system issue. People should be confronted with enemies and have to deal with them, not run around the enemy in circles. Honestly, what you described there occurs with cooldowns, as well, especially if the 2ndary spells are not very effective. See what some guy said about picking one spell, supercharging it, and lowering CD's, and then juts using that spell for everything.
What?
What I see if one skill is powerful or your 'best skill', then people are going to just try and save up to use it. Using your logic that skills that have a bigger effect should have a huge resource cost... Then how else do you save up to cast it other than to just sit there and gather? I think that's a horrible idea. Spells shouldn't be insanely difficult to cast.
I don't understand how you don't believe cooldowns can be used well or how they just lead to some repetitive loop of mashing the same 4-5 buttons over and over again. Most of the higher level spells/skills I have seen out of Diablo 3 (again, referencing the Wiki) are spells that should be used in boss fights, when in tough situations, etc. They aren't spells that make much sense when spammed and/or would be overpowered if spammed.
I don't see why a spell can't be useful or well designed if it isn't being spammed constantly. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Maybe, I'm afraid of WoW influence, where everything is on cooldown and people use rotations.
Cooldowns work sometimes, in some situations, but the argument that Blizzard used, and the way they presented them (1 skill per tier, avoid spamming), worries me, because it sounds they made purposefully overpowered spells and put them on cooldown, which is specifically what I do not want. Not only does that kill thousands of builds and lower gameplay to a rotation, it also means the game is incredibly easy.
I have played WoW. Watching Diablo 3 gameplay, even if you envision cooldowns in it, reminds me nothing of World of Warcraft.
Again, look at the skills in the Wiki from the highest level... Do they seem insanely powerful if they are on a cooldown? I think they would all be pretty ridiculous if you could just spam them... But on a cooldown they look (to me) like they should be used when you are in a tough spot or being overwhelmed.
*Loads up Tesladin*
click-click-click
It didn't evolve anywhere.
There are some few classes where it actually evolved a bit (assassin), but for most it's still click click click of some degree. The ADVANCEMENT thing is what evolved.
As for the Diablo comment, he is saying it's a fast paced game, which, according even to Blizzard, it is, and 2 minute cooldowns are a bit strange. I recall they wanted to put a cooldown on teleport for some reason, even though the spell never was an issue in other games, even in rather spammable forms. CC all the way.
I agree with you the combat system (or skill system) didn't really evolve from Diablo 1 to Diablo 2. It was smoother and such, but overall it was a very similar concept.
Teleport was never an issue? LOL! Only that it was the most overpowered skill in the game. So overpowered that they had to put a ridiculous overpowered item (Enigma) into the game just to allow other classes to catch up with the Sorceress. I was personally upset to hear teleport was even returning to the game. It eased a lot of my fears when they said it may not be able to go through walls or will have a cooldown.
You want to talk about poor game design as a fan of Diablo 2? How about a skill that lets you skip 99% of the gameplay to just kill one monster that drops the best items over... and over... and over... and over... and over...
I meant skills they actually have in the beta or w/e the latest version is, which is not available to us. Putting cooldowns everywhere is not too difficult, and apparently low level spells are supposed to go obsolete anyway.
I never said you shouldn't be able to spam anything. I clearly addressed that later in my post saying most skills will be able to be spammed... I think that's fairly obvious.
I'm saying you shouldn't be able to spam anything significant (try to spam anything in DII at lower levels).
Using your logic that skills that have a bigger effect should have a huge resource cost...
That's not even my logic, that is game logic as old as games themselves. Why would they not cost more? Why do we have a resource then if they're not going to cost more? How else to compensate?
Then how else do you save up to cast it other than to just sit there and gather?
I just replied to that.
IF YOU SIT YOU SHOULD DIE.
And, again, that occurs with cooldowns as well. Give me an example that doesn't also occur with cooldowns. That's one of the issues - it's redundant. Mana fullfills the task of "cooldown" just fine, except it's a choice. Cooldowns don't leave you a choice.
I think that's a horrible idea. Spells shouldn't be insanely difficult to cast.
There's nothing difficult about that. It is just a tradeoff. You want to cast a spell that kills half the room, spend your mana orb. Nobody is forcing you to cast it.
I don't understand how you don't believe cooldowns can be used well or how they just lead to some repetitive loop of mashing the same 4-5 buttons over and over again.
Because Blizzard's argument was to use cooldowns to prevent ability spamming, which means some abilities are inherently better than others, which leads to a rotation.
The only way to prevent a rotation is to make skills independent of each other in power.
Most of the higher level spells/skills I have seen out of Diablo 3 (again, referencing the Wiki) are spells that should be used in boss fights, when in tough situations, etc. They aren't spells that make much sense when spammed and/or would be overpowered if spammed.
I don't appreciate being told where to use a spell, and neither do min-maxers. It doesn't matter what the spell is designed for, it can be used for anything.
You need to bring up examples of what spells you're talking about. This "spells from the wiki" gives me nothing. All I heard about being spammed was teleport. Again, teleport was not an issue in any game with CC, and doesn't need a cooldown, but teleport is a special case anyway. I've been told that they are doing it to prevent 1-skill spamming, which means they're still using the WoW model.
I have played WoW. Watching Diablo 3 gameplay, even if you envision cooldowns in it, reminds me nothing of World of Warcraft.
I presume the videos were made prior to the whole cooldown idea.
But imagine if every fight went leap-mortal strike-hammer something-insert 2 more spells here-repeat.
Do they seem insanely powerful if they are on a cooldown? I think they would all be pretty ridiculous if you could just spam them... But on a cooldown they look (to me) like they should be used when you are in a tough spot or being overwhelmed.
These spells should not exist. To me, these spells are just bad design.
If you're in a tough spot/overwhelmed, you should die, end of story. I thought this game was supposed to be difficult? I don't recall any games where I had a spell specifically as a cop out, wtf?
Seriously, what are these spells really for? I don't want to have any skills I am not constantly using in every fight excluding single target spells for bosses. Pretty sure these skills are actually first thing you use in battle, so that they get off cooldown faster. If you have a cheap spell that kills half the room you are not going to wait to cast it.
@Equinox - the problem with just resource oriented is that it actually stops you from casting other skills to have enough resources to cast the big one. With the CD, you can still cast plenty of other skills and then use the biggie when its ready
As for making each skill unique to promote build variety, they have already done this. But we are talking about 22+ skills per class. Some of them, no matter how many different designs there are, will end up just being plain stronger. for example, you have 2-3 aoe's one is going to be the most damaging and in Diablo damage always wins. sure, you could have one aoe that also freezes and one that also knocks back, and one that also sets them on fire but in the end, 90% of all players will choose the aoe that deals the most damage. By placing a cooldown on this one, players can still choose it but others may opt for a weaker spell and be able to cast it more.
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Look at how Diablo II's combat evolve to be much broader than it's predecessor.
*Loads up Tesladin*
click-click-click
It didn't evolve anywhere.
There are some few classes where it actually evolved a bit (assassin), but for most it's still click click click of some degree. The ADVANCEMENT thing is what evolved.
As for the Diablo comment, he is saying it's a fast paced game, which, according even to Blizzard, it is, and 2 minute cooldowns are a bit strange. I recall they wanted to put a cooldown on teleport for some reason, even though the spell never was an issue in other games, even in rather spammable forms. CC all the way.
Sorry I was talking about abilities. Tesladin isn't the only Paladin you can play. Sure the playstyle is similar to the Warrior from Diablo I if you want to get right down to the bear bones of it. You do make a point in the fact that you click your mouse to execute your abilities, I'll give you that. That doesn't negate the fact that that wasn't what I was talking about at all. I was specifically talking about abilities. There is no other way to play a physical damage class in Diablo I except swing your weapon or shoot your bow. That's it, no other abilities to change the playstyle at all. Well, unless you played some random Fireball Warrior or something I guess.
Teleport was never an issue? LOL! Only that it was the most overpowered skill in the game.
I said in other games.
It was overpowered in DII for three reasons...
- costs nothing;
- comes from an item (giving other characters' skills on items will always be very difficult to balance);
- lack of CC in DII.
There's nothing overpowered about the spell itself. DII is the only game I recall it being overpowered in.
Making the top skills a "rediculous" amount to cast is a horrible idea. All this does is stop all skills from being cast for this one big one. You would have to stock pile your resource stopping you from casting spells. Then, you dump it all on one spell leaving you with 0 resource which again leaves you unable to cast any spells.
BTW, there are no more mana globes in the game so quick recovery for some class will not be that easy.
I also don't get why 2 min seems so long to some people. Yes, its not instant but 2 min just doesn't seem that long to me. Watch any game play video and time out every two minutes. That leaves you with plenty of opportunities to use these heavy hitters without them taking over your skill selection. you still have 6 other skills to rotate through in the mean time.
What would you suggest then to stop players from choosing all three top level skills?
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Different levels of damage, AoE reach, frequency, length of cast. + defensive spells, + resistances and spells useful for different resistances. On-click spells vs spells you have to aim. Spells that drain tons of mana vs cheap spells. Spells that complement other spells or your character in general.
There are several distinct classes which do not cross each other:
- Damage (short cast spells and long cast spells, + different resource costs); different ranges
- AoE (fire walls, circles, novas, cones, rays)
- summons
- CC (slow, stun, freeze, w/e)
- curse (weaken armor/resistance/etc.)
- improve self (faster attack speed or mana regen or armor or what have you)
- defensive (spell shields, Slow Time)
- positional (bone/zombie wall, push/pull, stack, teleport, leap, random and non-random blink)
- switch (shapeshift)
None of these need cooldowns between each other. And Diablo III ALREADY has a huge array of very different amazing spells:
Witch doctor's sacrifice minion thing synergizes perfectly with his summons.
Wizard has slow time and stuff, tons of AoE.
Barbarian has a range of skills that are on different cast timers seemingly with no cooldowns if you look at the first gameplay video.
Demon Hunter has a lot of AoE and rolls and stuff.
These games have two modes of play - single target (boss) and masses of monsters (normal). The boss fight should utilize the various secondary (non-damage) spells the most, and they should be used because if you don't use them you'll get smashed. Last thing I want to see is spamming 5 spells on whackamole instead of spamming 1 spell, yay cooldowns.
Your partners would act as your shield while your CD expires then you could kick in and be the "one shot/one kill" man.
Or at least reduce the enemies lifepoints so much than they became easy meat.
Guess it could be used even in PvP but I've the feeling CD will work quite different in the Arena.
I don't get what this has to do with cooldowns. Read the level 26 spells for the Barbarian.
Do any of those seem like 'bad' or 'poorly designed' skills to you? Do any of them seem like they are ridiculous to have on cooldown? So if they weren't on cooldown you could constantly have three summons jumping around you destroying enemies, your damage/speed/etc would all be upped and the screen would constantly be shaking with everything taking damage.
Oh that's right, you have the absolutely awful idea of just 'making them cost a lot'. You realize if they costed that much, they would likely either be useless or encourage painfully boring game play since people would just sit there attacking normally to save up enough of their resource to cast one super powerful spell?
It's not like they are saying all skills are going to have cooldowns. I doubt you are going to have to wait minutes at a time to 'bash' a monster or use 'frenzy'. They have plenty of basic attack skills, buffs, etc. They are looking to add even more diversity to the game by putting some skills in that have long cooldowns and should be used a little more strategically. I'm sure 4-5 of your skills will have no cooldown (or something like .5 seconds), while 2-3 skills will have a cooldown that doesn't allow them to be spammed.
I don't think that's a cop out or bad game design, it's just another way to implement more skills and make more skills useful.
This skill should simply not exist. There should be no bone spear, no whirlwind. If renditions of these skills are to exist, they should be comparable to other skills. I want to spec into Locust Swarm for all I care but it should be viable not a "low level skill you pick to fill your cooldowns", hello, game design? Ever heard of Nox, Blizzard? Or too stuck in the gutter with your WoW where everything is on cooldown and the DPS class is insanely boring to play save for the occasional frost trap?
You guys realize that a "rotation" (the staple of everything in WoW) is the same as spamming the same skill over and over?
Agree!
I don't see a way that the Diablo 3 skills listed as they are on the wiki, even with cooldowns, is going to force players into using a 'rotation'.
I think you are just looking for a reason to bitch and do the 'cool thing'. The 'cool thing' being comparing Diablo 3 to WoW.
You realize that if you sit there attacking normally you should die? That's a game difficulty issue, not the spell system issue. People should be confronted with enemies and have to deal with them, not run around the enemy in circles. Honestly, what you described there occurs with cooldowns, as well, especially if the 2ndary spells are not very effective. See what some guy said about picking one spell, supercharging it, and lowering CD's, and then juts using that spell for everything.
Maybe, I'm afraid of WoW influence, where everything is on cooldown and people use rotations.
Cooldowns work sometimes, in some situations, but the argument that Blizzard used, and the way they presented them (1 skill per tier, avoid spamming), worries me, because it sounds they made purposefully overpowered spells and put them on cooldown, which is specifically what I do not want. Not only does that kill thousands of builds and lower gameplay to a rotation, it also means the game is incredibly easy.
I think you're just using ad hominem because you want to do the cool thing, the cool thing being, "I agree with Blizzard".
As of right now I disagree. I don't think you can really say 'two minute cooldown is too long in a game like Diablo III.' The only concrete thing we really know is that Diablo III is an ARPG in the Diablo franchise. I think you're trying to overlay the original two games' mechanics onto Diablo III. The style is similar, but I think their approach to their design around the mechanics of combat has changed, and I think people who are expecting a carbon copy of Diablo II's combat system in Diablo III will be surprised at the differences.
I'll just use a lose example of how much different Diablo I combat and Diablo II combat was, particularly for the physical damage classes. On top of being able to learn all the same spells as the Sorcerer from spellbooks, the Warrior and the Rogue each had one attack altered only by their increased attack speed. There wasn't any Strafe or Multi Shot or Frenzy or Whirlwind. There was click-click-click swing-shoot-swing-shoot. Look at how Diablo II's combat evolve to be much broader than it's predecessor. I'm not saying that a thing like added high cooldowns to super powerful abilities is going to make the same kind of impact on combat as the ability trees did between Diablo I and II, but I have high hopes and am confident that Blizzard is on the right track and making the right decisions when it comes down to it.
However there's always a chance that you're right and the cooldowns do need to be changed. In that case I'm sure Blizzard will tweak them so they feel just right.
click-click-click
It didn't evolve anywhere.
There are some few classes where it actually evolved a bit (assassin), but for most it's still click click click of some degree. The ADVANCEMENT thing is what evolved.
As for the Diablo comment, he is saying it's a fast paced game, which, according even to Blizzard, it is, and 2 minute cooldowns are a bit strange. I recall they wanted to put a cooldown on teleport for some reason, even though the spell never was an issue in other games, even in rather spammable forms. CC all the way.
I never said you shouldn't be able to spam anything. I clearly addressed that later in my post saying most skills will be able to be spammed... I think that's fairly obvious.
What?
What I see if one skill is powerful or your 'best skill', then people are going to just try and save up to use it. Using your logic that skills that have a bigger effect should have a huge resource cost... Then how else do you save up to cast it other than to just sit there and gather? I think that's a horrible idea. Spells shouldn't be insanely difficult to cast.
I don't understand how you don't believe cooldowns can be used well or how they just lead to some repetitive loop of mashing the same 4-5 buttons over and over again. Most of the higher level spells/skills I have seen out of Diablo 3 (again, referencing the Wiki) are spells that should be used in boss fights, when in tough situations, etc. They aren't spells that make much sense when spammed and/or would be overpowered if spammed.
I don't see why a spell can't be useful or well designed if it isn't being spammed constantly. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I have played WoW. Watching Diablo 3 gameplay, even if you envision cooldowns in it, reminds me nothing of World of Warcraft.
Again, look at the skills in the Wiki from the highest level... Do they seem insanely powerful if they are on a cooldown? I think they would all be pretty ridiculous if you could just spam them... But on a cooldown they look (to me) like they should be used when you are in a tough spot or being overwhelmed.
I agree with you the combat system (or skill system) didn't really evolve from Diablo 1 to Diablo 2. It was smoother and such, but overall it was a very similar concept.
Teleport was never an issue? LOL! Only that it was the most overpowered skill in the game. So overpowered that they had to put a ridiculous overpowered item (Enigma) into the game just to allow other classes to catch up with the Sorceress. I was personally upset to hear teleport was even returning to the game. It eased a lot of my fears when they said it may not be able to go through walls or will have a cooldown.
You want to talk about poor game design as a fan of Diablo 2? How about a skill that lets you skip 99% of the gameplay to just kill one monster that drops the best items over... and over... and over... and over... and over...
They do have the skills listed:
Barb Skills
Demon Hunter Skills
Monk Skills
Wizard Skills
Witch Doctor Skills
I'm saying you shouldn't be able to spam anything significant (try to spam anything in DII at lower levels).
Yes, there should be no best skill. What you're describing occurs with cooldowns as well. In MOBA's, it even has a name. It's called the Ultimate.
That's not even my logic, that is game logic as old as games themselves. Why would they not cost more? Why do we have a resource then if they're not going to cost more? How else to compensate?
I just replied to that.
IF YOU SIT YOU SHOULD DIE.
And, again, that occurs with cooldowns as well. Give me an example that doesn't also occur with cooldowns. That's one of the issues - it's redundant. Mana fullfills the task of "cooldown" just fine, except it's a choice. Cooldowns don't leave you a choice.
There's nothing difficult about that. It is just a tradeoff. You want to cast a spell that kills half the room, spend your mana orb. Nobody is forcing you to cast it.
Because Blizzard's argument was to use cooldowns to prevent ability spamming, which means some abilities are inherently better than others, which leads to a rotation.
The only way to prevent a rotation is to make skills independent of each other in power.
I don't appreciate being told where to use a spell, and neither do min-maxers. It doesn't matter what the spell is designed for, it can be used for anything.
You need to bring up examples of what spells you're talking about. This "spells from the wiki" gives me nothing. All I heard about being spammed was teleport. Again, teleport was not an issue in any game with CC, and doesn't need a cooldown, but teleport is a special case anyway. I've been told that they are doing it to prevent 1-skill spamming, which means they're still using the WoW model.
Probably because I didn't say that.
I presume the videos were made prior to the whole cooldown idea.
But imagine if every fight went leap-mortal strike-hammer something-insert 2 more spells here-repeat.
These spells should not exist. To me, these spells are just bad design.
If you're in a tough spot/overwhelmed, you should die, end of story. I thought this game was supposed to be difficult? I don't recall any games where I had a spell specifically as a cop out, wtf?
Seriously, what are these spells really for? I don't want to have any skills I am not constantly using in every fight excluding single target spells for bosses. Pretty sure these skills are actually first thing you use in battle, so that they get off cooldown faster. If you have a cheap spell that kills half the room you are not going to wait to cast it.
I think you mean:
Barbarian
Demon Hunter
Monk
Wizard
Witch Doctor
@Equinox - the problem with just resource oriented is that it actually stops you from casting other skills to have enough resources to cast the big one. With the CD, you can still cast plenty of other skills and then use the biggie when its ready
As for making each skill unique to promote build variety, they have already done this. But we are talking about 22+ skills per class. Some of them, no matter how many different designs there are, will end up just being plain stronger. for example, you have 2-3 aoe's one is going to be the most damaging and in Diablo damage always wins. sure, you could have one aoe that also freezes and one that also knocks back, and one that also sets them on fire but in the end, 90% of all players will choose the aoe that deals the most damage. By placing a cooldown on this one, players can still choose it but others may opt for a weaker spell and be able to cast it more.
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Sorry I was talking about abilities. Tesladin isn't the only Paladin you can play. Sure the playstyle is similar to the Warrior from Diablo I if you want to get right down to the bear bones of it. You do make a point in the fact that you click your mouse to execute your abilities, I'll give you that. That doesn't negate the fact that that wasn't what I was talking about at all. I was specifically talking about abilities. There is no other way to play a physical damage class in Diablo I except swing your weapon or shoot your bow. That's it, no other abilities to change the playstyle at all. Well, unless you played some random Fireball Warrior or something I guess.
It was overpowered in DII for three reasons...
- costs nothing;
- comes from an item (giving other characters' skills on items will always be very difficult to balance);
- lack of CC in DII.
There's nothing overpowered about the spell itself. DII is the only game I recall it being overpowered in.
Just gotta upstage me with your fancy links don't you! =D