This seems like a good change to combat leaching, but I'm worried it will now discourage people with the very best gear from joining co-op games through the match making system. If you've managed to put together a set of MF gear that also has all your important dps and survival stats, then playing in a co-op game with lesser geared people would not only let people leech off your killing power, but also your MF. Why would you want to potentially give up 75% of your MF in this case?
Good point. If you could put together a gear set with good survivability and MF, there could be less incentive to join games with others if you're hunting for loot.
I'm really confused about how MF/GF are going to work in D3. First, I remember Blizzard talking about how they did not want players to have to sacrifice survivability for MF. Now it sounds like the total opposite - you can't have everything.
Hopefully we'll see gear that represents a range of options in terms of the ratio of survivability/MF. I could see it averaging out pretty evenly if groups were well-strategized. In one scenario, you could have four players with average MF and survivability. In another, you could have two players with lots of MF and less DPS, and two players with low MF and high DPS. I'm guessing that it is difficult for one player to have both, though.
And exp+drops+difficulty of mobs are increased per person that joins game making shared mf even greater.
And I also thought that individual player drops did not increase with more players. Of course, the total amount of loot dropped in a 2- player game will be more than in a single-player game, but for the individual it is the same. Maybe I'm wrong.
The whole "you sacrifice DPS/survivability for MF" is a myth, especially in D3 with the blacksmith giving +100 random affixes and all. In randomly matched games, the players with the best balanced gear will be the victim of this new system.
Extremely overgeared players will always "carry" other players, giving the other players more kills and loot than they deserve. That's true of any multiplayer co-op game. If you're ridiculously overgeared you will probably have guild or friend groups to team with. I don't see it as a problem.
In D2 there were many ways to completely gimp out your character with over MF that no-one did because MF public random group play was non-existant. For example dual wielding gull daggers from an axe barb or similar.
If you could get obscure MF weapon uniques like the gull dagger that completely gimp physical dps in D3, having that character take loot from a balance geared group in Inferno would be leeching completely and intentionally.
However with this shared system the person who stacks MF is not being leeched because the other players cannot by themselves choose to have someone to leech on, it is purely random and thus leeching cannot be intentional, if it does occur it will be by the conscious decision of a player to stack mf- potentially gimping weapon damage completely and giving the group item bonuses instead of battle assistance. A group may not even notice a MF stacked player at all, which cannot at all be defined as leeching.
In any case most of these selfish minded MF stackers are just upset about not being able to leech in groups consciously. They also seem to forget that the other players they play with will likely have around 100 or so MF from what I can imagine so the averaging will not be as harsh as they portray.
If a MF gimped character comes along dual welding gull daggers with 400% MF and the others being balanced at around 100% the group average will be around 175%
This is the one change in D3 that I don't like. It does kind of make sense without the click race but peoples reasoning for or against it always comes across as assumptions or troll techniques.
1) Diablo is about customization and loot. Viable MF builds should be out there that won't gimp your char beyond survivability in inferno. No one knows what inferno is like yet, so we don't know how viable or unviable they will be. Claiming mf builds as leechers is no worse then claiming full dps builds as leechers as in "My lewts suck because you leeching all my mf." This could be really annoying if the mf build also has great dps that out damages some if not all of the other chars. After all, they have been mfing, and they most likely have some of the best gear out there.
2) Killing mobs in diablo has never been about min/maxing your gear so you can actually kill something. Most mobs died fairly quickly regardless of mf vs dps gear. You are talking about seconds in time difference, not minutes. The difference was with the champion/elite monsters and bosses. Again we are not sure how inferno works yet and how hard will it be for a normal mob to be killed by an mf geared char. Everyone has a theory, but we are probably all wrong.
3) MF gear was the end game gear. As in, it was one of the last sets of gear you got before you started making runewords. The first run through D2 in the beginning was learning how unviable so many hybrid builds were. Sorry Heyseus the Pally, your hybrid build transformed you into a mule. After you eek out a defeat of the terror lord on hell, you started building dps gear to kill faster and get loot faster. Suddenly you start getting viable dps gear with good mf on it. At some point, the template for an mf sorc is discovered and the lore of her great discoveries spreads throughout sanctuary. Its nice to have mf gear on other chars, but most found mfing with the sorc to be efficient. Eventually most made a Hammerdin for Baal runs. All other chars seemed to be just for fun and were fairly hard if not impossible to kill Baal on hell with solo after a certain patch. I had no trouble with a bowazon back in 2003. Last June I was getting roughed up. To finish this point, with the sharing of mf, is blizzard trying to change the stage at which you want to start using mf gear? Or will a certain amount of mf be required for inferno pugs or face getting kicked?
4) I understand that video gaming has come a long way since D2 and many like a min/max style of play. I am hoping that its not the case. I'm not here to bash the min/max players, they can play the way they want to play. Thats why I loved Diablo, it had flexiblity. I really like what I have read about how items will be really diverse and I am hoping we are all not decked out with the exact same gear with the exact same affixes and suffixes on them. MF builds should be viable or in the end game we may begin to all look the same. I don't want to follow D2 down that same rabbit hole of everyone with the same items on with the same stats at end game.
5) I have no idea how the mf is going to work yet, not played beta. I see people throwing mf % out there. Right now we don't know the return rate and the sweet spot mf% for optimum loot vs dps. There will be one and it will be found. Once it is, watch people target the dps and mf% numbers. THe true min/maxers will find it and those going for too much mf with not enough dps or too much dps and not enough mf will be excluded from all the min/maxers games... label yourselves rudolph now. The snobbery will begin.
Most people agree that this will be a good thing, that is all that matters, discussions about MF was brought up here months ago and this was most commonly suggested solution. I love it personally. And if some people think they are going to be negatively impacted by this system, they are just selfish, its true and they know it. Its hard to come up with a better balanced solution than this system.
Overall, this is probably a good change, but its not without its problems. Under the old system, somebody could queue for a co-op game wearing gear with MF and nothing else and get items without really helping the group. The other 3 people don't have any choice in who they get grouped with, so it pretty much sucked for them.
Under the new system, somebody with really good gear that has enough dps/survivability to kill quickly and safely *plus* MF/GF will get paired with people that probably haven't been focusing on MF/GF so the geared person will lose most of their MF/GF (if nobody else has MF/GF then their values are essentially only 25% effective). This sucks for the geared person, but unlike the old system, the person it sucks for is the person that can do something about it by just not queuing for a co-op game and playing solo instead.
Extremely overgeared players will always "carry" other players, giving the other players more kills and loot than they deserve. That's true of any multiplayer co-op game. If you're ridiculously overgeared you will probably have guild or friend groups to team with. I don't see it as a problem.
There's a difference, though, between carrying more than your share of the work in the group and having your drops actively penalized because you are playing co-op with less-geared players. Normally if you can kill at about the same speed in a co-op game as you could in a solo game, it would be worth-while to play co-op even if you were carrying some other less-geared players. Under the new system you'll have to be killing up to 4 times faster in co-op as in solo to make it worth playing.
People with more MF/GF than the average player will be penalized for playing co-op instead of single player (assuming similar killing speeds in both places). Because of this, many "above average" players will play solo rather than co-op, which will further lower the average MF/GF you see in a co-op game, which will further encourage people with MF/GF who can play solo to do so rather than play co-op.
This cycle could continue to the point where co-op is primarily for people who are still focusing on gearing up their dps/survival stats and may need some help from other people at that level to clear the content and gear up. Once people start to be able to incorporate MF/GF into their gear, they will be encouraged to play more single player and less co-op in order to gain the full benefit from their new and better gear.
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I'm really confused about how MF/GF are going to work in D3. First, I remember Blizzard talking about how they did not want players to have to sacrifice survivability for MF. Now it sounds like the total opposite - you can't have everything.
Hopefully we'll see gear that represents a range of options in terms of the ratio of survivability/MF. I could see it averaging out pretty evenly if groups were well-strategized. In one scenario, you could have four players with average MF and survivability. In another, you could have two players with lots of MF and less DPS, and two players with low MF and high DPS. I'm guessing that it is difficult for one player to have both, though.
If you could get obscure MF weapon uniques like the gull dagger that completely gimp physical dps in D3, having that character take loot from a balance geared group in Inferno would be leeching completely and intentionally.
However with this shared system the person who stacks MF is not being leeched because the other players cannot by themselves choose to have someone to leech on, it is purely random and thus leeching cannot be intentional, if it does occur it will be by the conscious decision of a player to stack mf- potentially gimping weapon damage completely and giving the group item bonuses instead of battle assistance. A group may not even notice a MF stacked player at all, which cannot at all be defined as leeching.
In any case most of these selfish minded MF stackers are just upset about not being able to leech in groups consciously. They also seem to forget that the other players they play with will likely have around 100 or so MF from what I can imagine so the averaging will not be as harsh as they portray.
If a MF gimped character comes along dual welding gull daggers with 400% MF and the others being balanced at around 100% the group average will be around 175%
1) Diablo is about customization and loot. Viable MF builds should be out there that won't gimp your char beyond survivability in inferno. No one knows what inferno is like yet, so we don't know how viable or unviable they will be. Claiming mf builds as leechers is no worse then claiming full dps builds as leechers as in "My lewts suck because you leeching all my mf." This could be really annoying if the mf build also has great dps that out damages some if not all of the other chars. After all, they have been mfing, and they most likely have some of the best gear out there.
2) Killing mobs in diablo has never been about min/maxing your gear so you can actually kill something. Most mobs died fairly quickly regardless of mf vs dps gear. You are talking about seconds in time difference, not minutes. The difference was with the champion/elite monsters and bosses. Again we are not sure how inferno works yet and how hard will it be for a normal mob to be killed by an mf geared char. Everyone has a theory, but we are probably all wrong.
3) MF gear was the end game gear. As in, it was one of the last sets of gear you got before you started making runewords. The first run through D2 in the beginning was learning how unviable so many hybrid builds were. Sorry Heyseus the Pally, your hybrid build transformed you into a mule. After you eek out a defeat of the terror lord on hell, you started building dps gear to kill faster and get loot faster. Suddenly you start getting viable dps gear with good mf on it. At some point, the template for an mf sorc is discovered and the lore of her great discoveries spreads throughout sanctuary. Its nice to have mf gear on other chars, but most found mfing with the sorc to be efficient. Eventually most made a Hammerdin for Baal runs. All other chars seemed to be just for fun and were fairly hard if not impossible to kill Baal on hell with solo after a certain patch. I had no trouble with a bowazon back in 2003. Last June I was getting roughed up. To finish this point, with the sharing of mf, is blizzard trying to change the stage at which you want to start using mf gear? Or will a certain amount of mf be required for inferno pugs or face getting kicked?
4) I understand that video gaming has come a long way since D2 and many like a min/max style of play. I am hoping that its not the case. I'm not here to bash the min/max players, they can play the way they want to play. Thats why I loved Diablo, it had flexiblity. I really like what I have read about how items will be really diverse and I am hoping we are all not decked out with the exact same gear with the exact same affixes and suffixes on them. MF builds should be viable or in the end game we may begin to all look the same. I don't want to follow D2 down that same rabbit hole of everyone with the same items on with the same stats at end game.
5) I have no idea how the mf is going to work yet, not played beta. I see people throwing mf % out there. Right now we don't know the return rate and the sweet spot mf% for optimum loot vs dps. There will be one and it will be found. Once it is, watch people target the dps and mf% numbers. THe true min/maxers will find it and those going for too much mf with not enough dps or too much dps and not enough mf will be excluded from all the min/maxers games... label yourselves rudolph now. The snobbery will begin.
Overall, this is probably a good change, but its not without its problems. Under the old system, somebody could queue for a co-op game wearing gear with MF and nothing else and get items without really helping the group. The other 3 people don't have any choice in who they get grouped with, so it pretty much sucked for them.
Under the new system, somebody with really good gear that has enough dps/survivability to kill quickly and safely *plus* MF/GF will get paired with people that probably haven't been focusing on MF/GF so the geared person will lose most of their MF/GF (if nobody else has MF/GF then their values are essentially only 25% effective). This sucks for the geared person, but unlike the old system, the person it sucks for is the person that can do something about it by just not queuing for a co-op game and playing solo instead.
There's a difference, though, between carrying more than your share of the work in the group and having your drops actively penalized because you are playing co-op with less-geared players. Normally if you can kill at about the same speed in a co-op game as you could in a solo game, it would be worth-while to play co-op even if you were carrying some other less-geared players. Under the new system you'll have to be killing up to 4 times faster in co-op as in solo to make it worth playing.
People with more MF/GF than the average player will be penalized for playing co-op instead of single player (assuming similar killing speeds in both places). Because of this, many "above average" players will play solo rather than co-op, which will further lower the average MF/GF you see in a co-op game, which will further encourage people with MF/GF who can play solo to do so rather than play co-op.
This cycle could continue to the point where co-op is primarily for people who are still focusing on gearing up their dps/survival stats and may need some help from other people at that level to clear the content and gear up. Once people start to be able to incorporate MF/GF into their gear, they will be encouraged to play more single player and less co-op in order to gain the full benefit from their new and better gear.