I would say that religion is healthy if practiced right. Having something to believe in and to hold on to is good. Especially for the "average" person.
We cannot discriminate against religious people and say that their views are primitive because its not about the small numbers and facts. Its about the whole picture, its about the belief.
I think people should stop looking at the holy books and saying "this is how we should live" but say "Hey, lets learn how to be better people" because in the end all the religions say the exact same things.
If a strictly religious man was to be considered primitive or ignorant, he would be no different than an athiest trying to prove that religions are wrong all day.
I believe this is called Jedi-ism. Accept all but the evil Republic. And Huts. And Bounty Hunters.
Rofl, it was actually on the top of my head so i just wrote it down. Its kind of funny how Jediism is actually considered as a way of life.
Edit: Oh and as a reply to your latest post:
Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an. He is considered as a messenger of god and a messiah for the people of Israel. According to Islam, Jesus was not crucified but it only appeared as so. Also, Jesus is supposed to come back by a time close to the end of the world.
That Zeitgeist movie is totally controversial.
What i do know about Jihad is that it exists in two forms. One is to protect and feed your family ad the second is to protect the land of Islam. The word Jihad has a defenition in Arabic quite different than the meaning of it when used in the Qur'an. Correct me if i am wrong.
I'm not talking about how extremists taint the image of the religion. I'm talking about them still going to hospitals and having cars.
You doing that is grand. That's what religion asks of you, and it's perfectly manageable.
Jesus is mentioned left and right, man. The only difference between Christianity and Islam in that respect is that we believe that the soul of Jesus ascended to heaven, and what was crucified wasn't actually Jesus himself.
Religion has been used to justify crimes, but that doesn't mean that religion in itself holds any erroneous and hateful teachings, so I basically agree with what you're saying.
Just thought this was an interesting point of view.
It might appear so at first glance, but it really isn't. God merely created us so we wouldn't complain when he dumped some of us in heaven, and others in hell. He wants to tell us, before we either go to heaven or hell, that we did this this and this, and that's why we're going here or there. A theory that I've come up with, is that at the very beginning, everyone was created equal. Person X lives in a shithole and has no money because one of his ancestors screwed up in some way. You can't just blame God for everything. You can't pin evil on God. You can't pin good on God, either. God created man, and it's safe to say that man created good and evil. They're all subjective terms coined by a human mind. If person X conned person Y, then God shouldn't be expected to induce a sudden implosion in X's brain because of his wrong deeds. This current world that we live in (dunya) is nothing but a temporary construct that's basically like a filter. You see who's a sinner, who is a dick, who is good...etc. In the end, it doesn't really matter, because compared to the eternity you're gonna spend either in heaven or hell, the 80 or so years you spend on earth are absolutely nothing.
An argument I've always found interesting is as follows:
If God is the ultimate source for what is good and evil;
and if we cannot agree on a logical definition of good nor evil that is universal;
then there exists no definition for either that exists outside of each specific situation;
therefore there is no God.
You asked for a religion that didn't originate from the Middle East...
-yawns- Sorry had a brainfart.
Anyways, you've just proved my original point that religion is not entirely subject to a 'badtrack record against open-mindedness and self-morals' .
What??? Whoa whoa... Stop right there. If anything, I just provided an example for you that completely disproves your idea that "No religion has ever formed outside the Middle East". But I guess that doesn't mean anything anymore.
Alright, here are some throw-ins of lack of open-mindedness and self-morals by religion.
- The Big Bang Theory is fake
- Evolution is fake
- Science is a lie
- Homosexuality is a sin
- Creation according to the Religion Book is the only way
- The Religion Book is your life and you must live by it
- Unknown knowledge = proof of God
- Technology is a evil and corrupting thing
Religion has a bad track record huh? Name a bad religion that didn't originate from the Middle East (Islam, Chatholicism/Christinaity, Jew, etc.). Again if your gonna use the broad term 'religion' instead of specific religions then you must take into account the many religions around the world.
Bolded the part for you, the statement was directed as a semi-rhetorical question. You claimed that religion (not a specific religion but the whole broad term of religion) has had a bad-track record on open-mindedness and self-morals. Obviously this isn't true and I assume even though you used the broad term of 'religion' you were specifically targetting similar religions that originated in the Middle-East.
Thus by answering the semi-rhetorical question above, you have proved my point that 'Religion (the broad term) doesn't have a bad-track record of said assumptions (by you) if you just look over the multiple histories and cultures of different societies.
You can't just blame God for everything. You can't pin evil on God. You can't pin good on God, either. God created man, and it's safe to say that man created good and evil.
If god created man (directly, e.g., god himself is not man, and man was not copied from somewhere else), god was the creator of everything man does, and god is therefore the originator of that good/evil. There honestly wasn't anything else for it to originate from, in that case.
To say man created good and evil is just silly. In pretty much any context.
If we take the evolutionary approach, saying man is evil for doing X is like saying wolves are evil for killing rabbits. You really can't argue with the evolutionary imperative.
If we take the god-created-man scenario, man comes pre-built with a bunch of crap that man has no ability to stick in there. The entire emotional basis. The intelligence capacity. The perception method. Pretty much all of Christianity and most other similar religions are built around blocking stuff in man that's actually pre-built. Man is like a broken machine Christianity and many other religions (especially Buddhism) needs to keep repairing all the time.
Yes, I can pin pretty much everything on god.
I can pin sexual drive on god.
I can pin periods on god.
I can pin neurosis on god.
I can pin pride and inferiority/superiority complexes on god.
I can blame all the people with IQ of ~90 on god.
I can pin any physiological function, and automatic reaction humans have in large amount on god because all those automatic reactions go back to the imperfect and broken physiological and mental processes with which we were created. Before there was nurture, there was nature, and nature is all god. ALL god. We could have been done without all of this shit, but we weren't, so stop pinning your shit on us when it's working exactly as it was intended, actually.
I can trace 90% of all human problems to these two things:
1. Low intelligence.
2. Sexual drive.
Neither of these are something the run of the mill human has much choice in or control over. It's just there. And that leads to our definition of evil. That was created by god. Therefore, god created evil.
I stick to the theory that god is man or similar to man and he just replicated himself, which is why the human shell is imperfect. Because god is imperfect. And he knows it. And we're not here to be something he is not.
You can't just blame God for everything. You can't pin evil on God. You can't pin good on God, either. God created man, and it's safe to say that man created good and evil.
If god created man (directly, e.g., god himself is not man, and man was not copied from somewhere else), god was the creator of everything man does, and god is therefore the originator of that good/evil. There honestly wasn't anything else for it to originate from, in that case.
To say man created good and evil is just silly. In pretty much any context.
If we take the evolutionary approach, saying man is evil for doing X is like saying wolves are evil for killing rabbits. You really can't argue with the evolutionary imperative.
If we take the god-created-man scenario, man comes pre-built with a bunch of crap that man has no ability to stick in there. The entire emotional basis. The intelligence capacity. The perception method. Pretty much all of Christianity and most other similar religions are built around blocking stuff in man that's actually pre-built. Man is like a broken machine Christianity and many other religions (especially Buddhism) needs to keep repairing all the time.
Yes, I can pin pretty much everything on god.
I can pin sexual drive on god.
I can pin periods on god.
I can pin neurosis on god.
I can pin pride and inferiority/superiority complexes on god.
I can blame all the people with IQ of ~90 on god.
I can pin any physiological function, and automatic reaction humans have in large amount on god because all those automatic reactions go back to the imperfect and broken physiological and mental processes with which we were created. Before there was nurture, there was nature, and nature is all god. ALL god. We could have been done without all of this shit, but we weren't, so stop pinning your shit on us when it's working exactly as it was intended, actually.
I can trace 90% of all human problems to these two things:
1. Low intelligence.
2. Sexual drive.
Neither of these are something the run of the mill human has much choice in or control over. It's just there. And that leads to our definition of evil. That was created by god. Therefore, god created evil.
I stick to the theory that god is man or similar to man and he just replicated himself, which is why the human shell is imperfect. Because god is imperfect. And he knows it. And we're not here to be something he is not.
Well that's your theory about God, and I respect it, but I disagree with it. :starwars:
I believe that God is not man, why? Because I also believe in extra terrestrial life. I believe God is a supreme being, perfect, he created the universe and existence but also has a Greek Mythological aspect to him, he doesn't concern himself with creations or something else entirely.
I don't necessarily think it is wise to put a moral stigma to God's aspect, why? Because it brings up too many unanswerable variables in addition to already existing unanswerable variables. God created everything, yes, doesn't mean God isn't going to specifically attend to every singly little creation God made.
Pretty much all of Christianity and most other similar religions are built around blocking stuff in man that's actually pre-built. Man is like a broken machine Christianity and many other religions (especially Buddhism) needs to keep repairing all the time.
You must be referring to the guys jacking off to porn the whole day long and dreaming of banging the neighbor's wife to finally end up praying during the weekend while keeping their fingers crossed that God has forgiven them.
Sadly enough, religion was not specifically designed for such people. Usually a religion represent a way of life, containing codes of conduct and seeking to instill a form of discipline to live by, presumably harnessing you with enough mental and emotional strength to deal with arising circumstances. These religions obviously have a goal and that goal is God.
Whether you'll get cookies or heaven as reward matters not(at least not to me).
How many people actually do follow their religion? Very few, I can assure you.
I can trace 90% of all human problems to these two things:
1. Low intelligence.
2. Sexual drive.
Neither of these are something the run of the mill human has much choice in or control over. It's just there. And that leads to our definition of evil. That was created by god. Therefore, god created evil.
I stick to the theory that god is man or similar to man and he just replicated himself, which is why the human shell is imperfect. Because god is imperfect. And he knows it. And we're not here to be something he is not.
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
Religion is here not to suppress it but to recognize it and teach you how to live your life with your desire under control with the end result that you will hopefully be free of it.
Quite simply, no mathematical equation or high level IQ pr reasoning can help me achieve this.
What is it with atheists on this site insisting on wanting to post retarded videos?
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Comedy is still comedy though. What he wants to say is:
1. How do you explain fossil evidence if the Earth is only 6,000 years old?
2. How do you explain inconsistencies in the Bible with the real world?
3. Is there any source of Jesus' powers other than scripture, i.e. can we support miracles through other evidence left in the world?
Which are all valid questions. Provided you believe the premise that the world was created 6,000 years ago by God of course, otherwise those are highly irrelevant questions.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
Religion is here not to suppress it but to recognize it and teach you how to live your life with your desire under control with the end result that you will hopefully be free of it.
Quite simply, no mathematical equation or high level IQ pr reasoning can help me achieve this.
Truer words have never been spoken, desire/greed/whatever you want to call it is pretty much the source of all problems in our world, I really disagree that our sex drive is to blame.
You definitely don't need religion to help you keep desire under control though (not saying it doesn't help of course), I lived without it and I'm not a greedy person, and I realize the difference between what I want, and what I need.
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Quote from "Sixen" »
"One in every 10 million people can potentially have a headache from this pill." God forbid she is the 0.000000001% of having a headache.
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
Religion is here not to suppress it but to recognize it and teach you how to live your life with your desire under control with the end result that you will hopefully be free of it.
Which does not in any way deal with Equinox argument that god must necessarily be evil if humans are driven by desire. It also does not in any way justify the basis for religion. You're talking about what religion does, but Equinox is talking about where the idea of religion came from and how that basis doesn't hold.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
You definitely don't need religion to help you keep desire under control though (not saying it doesn't help of course), I lived without it and I'm not a greedy person, and I realize the difference between what I want, and what I need.
Agreed. People do not need it.
I was merely pointing out how religion can actually help.
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
Religion is here not to suppress it but to recognize it and teach you how to live your life with your desire under control with the end result that you will hopefully be free of it.
Which does not in any way deal with Equinox argument that god must necessarily be evil if humans are driven by desire. It also does not in any way justify the basis for religion. You're talking about what religion does, but Equinox is talking about where the idea of religion came from and how that basis doesn't hold.
To challenge someone's perception of what God is would be ridiculous. And Equinox was saying how God is imperfect. Nowhere did I see an attempt to explain the origin of religion.
Anyway, it has been said by numerous people in the thread already about how you cannot hope to fathom the mind of the Supreme Being if He/She even exists. And most people who believe in God think the dude is perfect. So right there we see the different paths people are taking.
This evil business is hilarious. It's like your mom just cooked an apple pie for 3 people. She told you you'll get one piece and if you eat more, you'll get sick. You decide to be greedy and stuff your face with the whole pie and end up vomiting. But now you are saying either your mother or the pie itself is evil because they are responsible for your sickness.
The analogy can be faulty in many ways but I hope you get the idea.
And what is this basis for religion you are talking about? I think I pretty much justified it. I see religion as a mere tool. Use it right, you'll benefit from it. Use it wrong and you end up with the mediocrity of a great part of the human race.
To challenge someone's perception of what God is would be ridiculous. And Equinox was saying how God is imperfect. Nowhere did I see an attempt to explain the origin of religion.
It's based on the following premises:
1. If God was perfect, he could create a perfect creature, i.e. man would be perfect.
3. Man is imperfect.
Therefore, God cannot be perfect.
If God is perfect, in this sense that he is omnipotent and all-caring, he should be able to create man without any sort of flaws. He has not however, which means that he is not perfect. That means that he is either evil (strictly speaking he is not all-good) or not perfect. If he is evil, then why should why worship him? If he is not perfect, then he's not really a god, just some spirit or higher intelligence which happens to be smarter than us. In both of these cases, there's no point in worshipping him.
This evil business is hilarious. It's like your mom just cooked an apple pie for 3 people. She told you you'll get one piece and if you eat more, you'll get sick. You decide to be greedy and stuff your face with the whole pie and end up vomiting. But now you are saying either your mother or the pie itself is evil because they are responsible for your sickness.
The analogy can be faulty in many ways but I hope you get the idea.
My mom is neither perfect or all-good. Therefore she is not a suitable analogy to God.
And what is this basis for religion you are talking about? I think I pretty much justified it. I see religion as a mere tool. Use it right, you'll benefit from it. Use it wrong and you end up with the mediocrity of a great part of the human race.
Then religion is no different from a self-help program, or psychiatric treatment. If God is not necessary for the religion and the teachings of said religion to exist, then you do not need the religion at all. You're just telling people what you think seems to be smart. The only reasons to support religion in this case would be because it helps fool people.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
You cannot attach to anything an adjective that carries no meaning, and the word "perfect" carries no meaning indeed. What is "perfect"? Seems something that's so far from what man is and represents there can never be ANY connection between these two classes of beings.
he doesn't concern himself with creations or something else entirely.
You mean you're saying he forgot? Generally, when you create something, there's a reason for it. He could have left us alone, but in that case, he does no longer matters to us.
Usually a religion represent a way of life, containing codes of conduct and seeking to instill a form of discipline to live by, presumably harnessing you with enough mental and emotional strength to deal with arising circumstances. These religions obviously have a goal and that goal is God.
Rubbish.
We do not really know for whom, or with what purpose, Christianity or Buddhism were designed. I believe they were designed to propel humanity forward in advancement. Without a complex moral system humanity fails and collapses, and untouched humanity has a very low moral stance due to its lack of intelligence.
We know what religions SAY they are for. But, if we assume god has generated religions, then what they say is irrelevant. When you design what's essentially a propaganda scheme it is not required that the scheme be 100% truthful.
What they cause, what they lead to, is relevant. Their goal is not god. Their goal is human. Something human should do, something human should become. "approach god" is the carrot on the stick, nothing else. Maybe it's even true. Doesn't matter. And, I also believe, that goal has been achieved, and religion, as of right now, no longer serves any purpose that was originally intended for it.
Whether you'll get cookies or heaven as reward matters not(at least not to me).
I don't see why there needs to be a reward if Christianity got tons upon tons of followers without anyone having any proof of such a reward even existing...
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
No, stupidity comes first. Low intelligence is specifically what makes ones desires disbalanced. Sexual desire is the desire that's disbalanced by origin, why I singled it out. All others, though, are generally weakly expressed in, say, kids.
Also, I did not use the term "IQ". That's an oversimplification of what the word "intelligence" really means.
Religion is here not to suppress it but to recognize it and teach you how to live your life with your desire under control with the end result that you will hopefully be free of it.
"Free of desire" is equivalent to suppressing it. Most texts in, say, Christianity, deal with the direct suppression, direct eradication of evil, and the whole idea that man should be "good". Christianity preaches abstinence and generally discourages sex, as well (bottling up, btw). Christianity blames knowledge as a source of evil (apple of knowledge Eve ate, the whole "and now we know we're naked"). This is suppression, not acceptance. Christianity speaks of negatively defined humans, of "sinners", and of holy elements, such as god and Jesus. Christianity is black and white after all. You do good stuff, great, you do bad stuff, go to someone and ask for forgiveness for the bad stuff - fix it. Christianity is about viewing the human as a faulty machine that requires fixing.
I'll tell you why Christianity does that. Because the next level (accepting human) is considerably more complex and harder to explain to a bunch of dumb illiterate people than a black-white + punishment idea of the world, which is very natural to the aforementioned dumb illiterate people. No equation or reasoning can help dumb people achieve this. Smart people (Epicurus, etc.) already have, ages and ages ago.
This evil business is hilarious. It's like your mom just cooked an apple pie for 3 people. She told you you'll get one piece and if you eat more, you'll get sick. You decide to be greedy and stuff your face with the whole pie and end up vomiting. But now you are saying either your mother or the pie itself is evil because they are responsible for your sickness.
The analogy can be faulty in many ways but I hope you get the idea.
I get the idea that the analogy is faulty in many ways because that has nothing to do with what I said.
To sum up what I said for you, since you clearly did not understand it:
1. The creator of the concept is responsible for all actions taken by the concept (if you make a robot capable of nukes, and it nukes something, it's your fault).
2. The creator of the actor is the reason for all actions performed by the actor (if you have a kid and he kills someone, you're the reason that person died).
You cannot attach to anything an adjective that carries no meaning, and the word "perfect" carries no meaning indeed. What is "perfect"? Seems something that's so far from what man is and represents there can never be ANY connection between these two classes of beings.
Perfect meaning unfalsifiable, omnipotent, all. Perfect does indeed have a meaning, it is the status that all people know as the highest, the top, the untouchable, God is that status. As for the connection between us and God being nonexistant, I'm not really going against that. My whole point is that God is the creator but either
A) has no reason to concern himself/herself/itself with us
B ) Is only observing us from afar
C) Something else entirely.
he doesn't concern himself with creations or something else entirely.
You mean you're saying he forgot? Generally, when you create something, there's a reason for it. He could have left us alone, but in that case, he does no longer matters to us.
God created everything, yes, doesn't mean God isn't going to specifically attend to every singly little creation God made.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here tbh.
You create something but you are not going to concern yourself with said creation. For all we know we as a species can be a failed experiment or on the other extreme we could be a test of sentience, emotion, free will, humanity. Or again, something else entirely.
1. If God was perfect, he could create a perfect creature, i.e. man would be perfect.
3. Man is imperfect.
Therefore, God cannot be perfect.
If God is perfect, in this sense that he is omnipotent and all-caring, he should be able to create man without any sort of flaws. He has not however, which means that he is not perfect. That means that he is either evil (strictly speaking he is not all-good) or not perfect. If he is evil, then why should why worship him? If he is not perfect, then he's not really a god, just some spirit or higher intelligence which happens to be smarter than us. In both of these cases, there's no point in worshipping him.
Your whole premise is flawed since you never considered the purpose. Why did God create man as man presently is? That is the real question.
What you and Equi have done is just simply equate God to a production unit designed to assemble a product. If the unit is faulty, the product will be too and vice versa.
As soon as you put a purpose in there, the whole game changes. I sure hope you understand that.
My mom is neither perfect or all-good. Therefore she is not a suitable analogy to God.
You forgot the pie. I'll take it you didn't get the idea. At all.
Like Zhar previously hinted, we have the capacity to be good- with or without religion.
Have you ever stopped to consider that the desire within in is what actually drives you to live and survive. In this case it is hunger. But you let the desire get our of control and it became greed and you suffered the consequences.
Predictably, you'll come up and say, why didn't God give us the possibility to control our desire better. It brings us to the original question: Why did God create man as man is.
And what is this basis for religion you are talking about? I think I pretty much justified it. I see religion as a mere tool. Use it right, you'll benefit from it. Use it wrong and you end up with the mediocrity of a great part of the human race.
Then religion is no different from a self-help program, or psychiatric treatment. If God is not necessary for the religion and the teachings of said religion to exist, then you do not need the religion at all. You're just telling people what you think seems to be smart. The only reasons to support religion in this case would be because it helps fool people.
How did you get to the last part? About religion helping to fool people? Because God doesn't exist or is imperfect? What if He/She exists then?
Usually a religion represent a way of life, containing codes of conduct and seeking to instill a form of discipline to live by, presumably harnessing you with enough mental and emotional strength to deal with arising circumstances. These religions obviously have a goal and that goal is God.
We do not really know for whom, or with what purpose, Christianity or Buddhism were designed. I believe they were designed to propel humanity forward in advancement. Without a complex moral system humanity fails and collapses, and untouched humanity has a very low moral stance due to its lack of intelligence.
Rubbish.
-----
Na I'm just kidding.
Anyway you do not know the purpose and you offer your take on what you think they were designed for.
Cool.
We know what religions SAY they are for. But, if we assume god has generated religions, then what they say is irrelevant. When you design what's essentially a propaganda scheme it is not required that the scheme be 100% truthful.
How is assuming God generated religions mean what they say being irrelevant? What is that propaganda scheme you are talking about? Serious questions. No sarcasm or anything.
Their goal is not god. Their goal is human. Something human should do, something human should become. "approach god" is the carrot on the stick, nothing else. Maybe it's even true. Doesn't matter. And, I also believe, that goal has been achieved, and religion, as of right now, no longer serves any purpose that was originally intended for it.
You say even if it's true(approach God), it doesn't matter? Are you ever going to make any sense at all here? I mean have you found better than religion to 'approach God'?
Whether you'll get cookies or heaven as reward matters not(at least not to me).
I don't see why there needs to be a reward if Christianity got tons upon tons of followers without anyone having any proof of such a reward even existing...
Yes indeed. Everybody is praying to Jesus because they have faith they'll get cookies in the afterlife. :rolleyes:
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
No, stupidity comes first. Low intelligence is specifically what makes ones desires disbalanced. Sexual desire is the desire that's disbalanced by origin, why I singled it out. All others, though, are generally weakly expressed in, say, kids.
Also, I did not use the term "IQ". That's an oversimplification of what the word "intelligence" really means.
You are wrong. Maybe it's because your perception of sex is still that of a teenager(saying that is it is dis-balanced by default) but desire for power has wrecked far greater havoc than desire for sex. And the beings behind such chaos are usually very intelligent ones.
Wrong.
It is equivalent to overcoming it. The difference: suppression means it can affect you at any later point in time. Overcoming it means it can no longer affect you.
Most texts in, say, Christianity, deal with the direct suppression, direct eradication of evil, and the whole idea that man should be "good". Christianity preaches abstinence and generally discourages sex, as well (bottling up, btw). Christianity blames knowledge as a source of evil (apple of knowledge Eve ate, the whole "and now we know we're naked"). This is suppression, not acceptance. Christianity speaks of negatively defined humans, of "sinners", and of holy elements, such as god and Jesus. Christianity is black and white after all. You do good stuff, great, you do bad stuff, go to someone and ask for forgiveness for the bad stuff - fix it. Christianity is about viewing the human as a faulty machine that requires fixing.
I'll tell you why Christianity does that. Because the next level (accepting human) is considerably more complex and harder to explain to a bunch of dumb illiterate people than a black-white + punishment idea of the world, which is very natural to the aforementioned dumb illiterate people. No equation or reasoning can help dumb people achieve this. Smart people (Epicurus, etc.) already have, ages and ages ago.
You are wrong again. Christianity is about how badass Jesus was and discovering the actual bits of truths that came from him instead of following what was added by simple men afterward.
He owns Epicurus big time.
This evil business is hilarious. It's like your mom just cooked an apple pie for 3 people. She told you you'll get one piece and if you eat more, you'll get sick. You decide to be greedy and stuff your face with the whole pie and end up vomiting. But now you are saying either your mother or the pie itself is evil because they are responsible for your sickness.
The analogy can be faulty in many ways but I hope you get the idea.
I get the idea that the analogy is faulty in many ways because that has nothing to do with what I said.
To sum up what I said for you, since you clearly did not understand it:
1. The creator of the concept is responsible for all actions taken by the concept (if you make a robot capable of nukes, and it nukes something, it's your fault).
2. The creator of the actor is the reason for all actions performed by the actor (if you have a kid and he kills someone, you're the reason that person died).
Since you clearly have the inability to understand the analogy, I''ll sum it up for you:
1. The Creator made man.
2. The Creator gave man choices.
3. You fuck up- it's your own fault.
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Rofl, it was actually on the top of my head so i just wrote it down. Its kind of funny how Jediism is actually considered as a way of life.
Edit: Oh and as a reply to your latest post:
Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an. He is considered as a messenger of god and a messiah for the people of Israel. According to Islam, Jesus was not crucified but it only appeared as so. Also, Jesus is supposed to come back by a time close to the end of the world.
That Zeitgeist movie is totally controversial.
What i do know about Jihad is that it exists in two forms. One is to protect and feed your family ad the second is to protect the land of Islam. The word Jihad has a defenition in Arabic quite different than the meaning of it when used in the Qur'an. Correct me if i am wrong.
You doing that is grand. That's what religion asks of you, and it's perfectly manageable.
Jesus is mentioned left and right, man. The only difference between Christianity and Islam in that respect is that we believe that the soul of Jesus ascended to heaven, and what was crucified wasn't actually Jesus himself.
Religion has been used to justify crimes, but that doesn't mean that religion in itself holds any erroneous and hateful teachings, so I basically agree with what you're saying.
It might appear so at first glance, but it really isn't. God merely created us so we wouldn't complain when he dumped some of us in heaven, and others in hell. He wants to tell us, before we either go to heaven or hell, that we did this this and this, and that's why we're going here or there. A theory that I've come up with, is that at the very beginning, everyone was created equal. Person X lives in a shithole and has no money because one of his ancestors screwed up in some way. You can't just blame God for everything. You can't pin evil on God. You can't pin good on God, either. God created man, and it's safe to say that man created good and evil. They're all subjective terms coined by a human mind. If person X conned person Y, then God shouldn't be expected to induce a sudden implosion in X's brain because of his wrong deeds. This current world that we live in (dunya) is nothing but a temporary construct that's basically like a filter. You see who's a sinner, who is a dick, who is good...etc. In the end, it doesn't really matter, because compared to the eternity you're gonna spend either in heaven or hell, the 80 or so years you spend on earth are absolutely nothing.
That makes about 0 sense.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
You misread my statement:
Bolded the part for you, the statement was directed as a semi-rhetorical question. You claimed that religion (not a specific religion but the whole broad term of religion) has had a bad-track record on open-mindedness and self-morals. Obviously this isn't true and I assume even though you used the broad term of 'religion' you were specifically targetting similar religions that originated in the Middle-East.
Thus by answering the semi-rhetorical question above, you have proved my point that 'Religion (the broad term) doesn't have a bad-track record of said assumptions (by you) if you just look over the multiple histories and cultures of different societies.
If god created man (directly, e.g., god himself is not man, and man was not copied from somewhere else), god was the creator of everything man does, and god is therefore the originator of that good/evil. There honestly wasn't anything else for it to originate from, in that case.
To say man created good and evil is just silly. In pretty much any context.
If we take the evolutionary approach, saying man is evil for doing X is like saying wolves are evil for killing rabbits. You really can't argue with the evolutionary imperative.
If we take the god-created-man scenario, man comes pre-built with a bunch of crap that man has no ability to stick in there. The entire emotional basis. The intelligence capacity. The perception method. Pretty much all of Christianity and most other similar religions are built around blocking stuff in man that's actually pre-built. Man is like a broken machine Christianity and many other religions (especially Buddhism) needs to keep repairing all the time.
Yes, I can pin pretty much everything on god.
I can pin sexual drive on god.
I can pin periods on god.
I can pin neurosis on god.
I can pin pride and inferiority/superiority complexes on god.
I can blame all the people with IQ of ~90 on god.
I can pin any physiological function, and automatic reaction humans have in large amount on god because all those automatic reactions go back to the imperfect and broken physiological and mental processes with which we were created. Before there was nurture, there was nature, and nature is all god. ALL god. We could have been done without all of this shit, but we weren't, so stop pinning your shit on us when it's working exactly as it was intended, actually.
I can trace 90% of all human problems to these two things:
1. Low intelligence.
2. Sexual drive.
Neither of these are something the run of the mill human has much choice in or control over. It's just there. And that leads to our definition of evil. That was created by god. Therefore, god created evil.
I stick to the theory that god is man or similar to man and he just replicated himself, which is why the human shell is imperfect. Because god is imperfect. And he knows it. And we're not here to be something he is not.
Well that's your theory about God, and I respect it, but I disagree with it. :starwars:
I believe that God is not man, why? Because I also believe in extra terrestrial life. I believe God is a supreme being, perfect, he created the universe and existence but also has a Greek Mythological aspect to him, he doesn't concern himself with creations or something else entirely.
I don't necessarily think it is wise to put a moral stigma to God's aspect, why? Because it brings up too many unanswerable variables in addition to already existing unanswerable variables. God created everything, yes, doesn't mean God isn't going to specifically attend to every singly little creation God made.
Sadly enough, religion was not specifically designed for such people. Usually a religion represent a way of life, containing codes of conduct and seeking to instill a form of discipline to live by, presumably harnessing you with enough mental and emotional strength to deal with arising circumstances. These religions obviously have a goal and that goal is God.
Whether you'll get cookies or heaven as reward matters not(at least not to me).
How many people actually do follow their religion? Very few, I can assure you.
I'll simplify it for you.
100% of human problems arise from one thing:
Desire.
Religion is here not to suppress it but to recognize it and teach you how to live your life with your desire under control with the end result that you will hopefully be free of it.
Quite simply, no mathematical equation or high level IQ pr reasoning can help me achieve this.
I found this hilarious and thought I might share it with you guys.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
1. How do you explain fossil evidence if the Earth is only 6,000 years old?
2. How do you explain inconsistencies in the Bible with the real world?
3. Is there any source of Jesus' powers other than scripture, i.e. can we support miracles through other evidence left in the world?
Which are all valid questions. Provided you believe the premise that the world was created 6,000 years ago by God of course, otherwise those are highly irrelevant questions.
Truer words have never been spoken, desire/greed/whatever you want to call it is pretty much the source of all problems in our world, I really disagree that our sex drive is to blame.
You definitely don't need religion to help you keep desire under control though (not saying it doesn't help of course), I lived without it and I'm not a greedy person, and I realize the difference between what I want, and what I need.
I was merely pointing out how religion can actually help.
To challenge someone's perception of what God is would be ridiculous. And Equinox was saying how God is imperfect. Nowhere did I see an attempt to explain the origin of religion.
Anyway, it has been said by numerous people in the thread already about how you cannot hope to fathom the mind of the Supreme Being if He/She even exists. And most people who believe in God think the dude is perfect. So right there we see the different paths people are taking.
This evil business is hilarious. It's like your mom just cooked an apple pie for 3 people. She told you you'll get one piece and if you eat more, you'll get sick. You decide to be greedy and stuff your face with the whole pie and end up vomiting. But now you are saying either your mother or the pie itself is evil because they are responsible for your sickness.
The analogy can be faulty in many ways but I hope you get the idea.
And what is this basis for religion you are talking about? I think I pretty much justified it. I see religion as a mere tool. Use it right, you'll benefit from it. Use it wrong and you end up with the mediocrity of a great part of the human race.
1. If God was perfect, he could create a perfect creature, i.e. man would be perfect.
3. Man is imperfect.
Therefore, God cannot be perfect.
If God is perfect, in this sense that he is omnipotent and all-caring, he should be able to create man without any sort of flaws. He has not however, which means that he is not perfect. That means that he is either evil (strictly speaking he is not all-good) or not perfect. If he is evil, then why should why worship him? If he is not perfect, then he's not really a god, just some spirit or higher intelligence which happens to be smarter than us. In both of these cases, there's no point in worshipping him.
My mom is neither perfect or all-good. Therefore she is not a suitable analogy to God.
Then religion is no different from a self-help program, or psychiatric treatment. If God is not necessary for the religion and the teachings of said religion to exist, then you do not need the religion at all. You're just telling people what you think seems to be smart. The only reasons to support religion in this case would be because it helps fool people.
One does not exclude the other. This extra terrestrial life can also be man. It can also be similar to man. So can god. There's no contradiction here.
You cannot attach to anything an adjective that carries no meaning, and the word "perfect" carries no meaning indeed. What is "perfect"? Seems something that's so far from what man is and represents there can never be ANY connection between these two classes of beings.
You mean you're saying he forgot? Generally, when you create something, there's a reason for it. He could have left us alone, but in that case, he does no longer matters to us.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here tbh.
--Nekro--
Rubbish.
We do not really know for whom, or with what purpose, Christianity or Buddhism were designed. I believe they were designed to propel humanity forward in advancement. Without a complex moral system humanity fails and collapses, and untouched humanity has a very low moral stance due to its lack of intelligence.
We know what religions SAY they are for. But, if we assume god has generated religions, then what they say is irrelevant. When you design what's essentially a propaganda scheme it is not required that the scheme be 100% truthful.
What they cause, what they lead to, is relevant. Their goal is not god. Their goal is human. Something human should do, something human should become. "approach god" is the carrot on the stick, nothing else. Maybe it's even true. Doesn't matter. And, I also believe, that goal has been achieved, and religion, as of right now, no longer serves any purpose that was originally intended for it.
I don't see why there needs to be a reward if Christianity got tons upon tons of followers without anyone having any proof of such a reward even existing...
And god predicted this, I can assure you.
No, stupidity comes first. Low intelligence is specifically what makes ones desires disbalanced. Sexual desire is the desire that's disbalanced by origin, why I singled it out. All others, though, are generally weakly expressed in, say, kids.
Also, I did not use the term "IQ". That's an oversimplification of what the word "intelligence" really means.
"Free of desire" is equivalent to suppressing it. Most texts in, say, Christianity, deal with the direct suppression, direct eradication of evil, and the whole idea that man should be "good". Christianity preaches abstinence and generally discourages sex, as well (bottling up, btw). Christianity blames knowledge as a source of evil (apple of knowledge Eve ate, the whole "and now we know we're naked"). This is suppression, not acceptance. Christianity speaks of negatively defined humans, of "sinners", and of holy elements, such as god and Jesus. Christianity is black and white after all. You do good stuff, great, you do bad stuff, go to someone and ask for forgiveness for the bad stuff - fix it. Christianity is about viewing the human as a faulty machine that requires fixing.
I'll tell you why Christianity does that. Because the next level (accepting human) is considerably more complex and harder to explain to a bunch of dumb illiterate people than a black-white + punishment idea of the world, which is very natural to the aforementioned dumb illiterate people. No equation or reasoning can help dumb people achieve this. Smart people (Epicurus, etc.) already have, ages and ages ago.
I get the idea that the analogy is faulty in many ways because that has nothing to do with what I said.
To sum up what I said for you, since you clearly did not understand it:
1. The creator of the concept is responsible for all actions taken by the concept (if you make a robot capable of nukes, and it nukes something, it's your fault).
2. The creator of the actor is the reason for all actions performed by the actor (if you have a kid and he kills someone, you're the reason that person died).
Perfect meaning unfalsifiable, omnipotent, all. Perfect does indeed have a meaning, it is the status that all people know as the highest, the top, the untouchable, God is that status. As for the connection between us and God being nonexistant, I'm not really going against that. My whole point is that God is the creator but either
A) has no reason to concern himself/herself/itself with us
B ) Is only observing us from afar
C) Something else entirely.
Explained above.
You create something but you are not going to concern yourself with said creation. For all we know we as a species can be a failed experiment or on the other extreme we could be a test of sentience, emotion, free will, humanity. Or again, something else entirely.
Your whole premise is flawed since you never considered the purpose. Why did God create man as man presently is? That is the real question.
What you and Equi have done is just simply equate God to a production unit designed to assemble a product. If the unit is faulty, the product will be too and vice versa.
As soon as you put a purpose in there, the whole game changes. I sure hope you understand that.
You forgot the pie. I'll take it you didn't get the idea. At all.
Like Zhar previously hinted, we have the capacity to be good- with or without religion.
Have you ever stopped to consider that the desire within in is what actually drives you to live and survive. In this case it is hunger. But you let the desire get our of control and it became greed and you suffered the consequences.
Predictably, you'll come up and say, why didn't God give us the possibility to control our desire better. It brings us to the original question: Why did God create man as man is.
How did you get to the last part? About religion helping to fool people? Because God doesn't exist or is imperfect? What if He/She exists then?
Rubbish.
-----
Na I'm just kidding.
Anyway you do not know the purpose and you offer your take on what you think they were designed for.
Cool.
How is assuming God generated religions mean what they say being irrelevant? What is that propaganda scheme you are talking about? Serious questions. No sarcasm or anything.
Isn't what they cause and lead to directly related to what they say. But now you say this part is relevant. This is getting complicated.
You say even if it's true(approach God), it doesn't matter? Are you ever going to make any sense at all here? I mean have you found better than religion to 'approach God'?
Yes indeed. Everybody is praying to Jesus because they have faith they'll get cookies in the afterlife. :rolleyes:
What I said had to do with how people wrongly use religion.
You are wrong. Maybe it's because your perception of sex is still that of a teenager(saying that is it is dis-balanced by default) but desire for power has wrecked far greater havoc than desire for sex. And the beings behind such chaos are usually very intelligent ones.
Wrong.
It is equivalent to overcoming it. The difference: suppression means it can affect you at any later point in time. Overcoming it means it can no longer affect you.
You are wrong again. Christianity is about how badass Jesus was and discovering the actual bits of truths that came from him instead of following what was added by simple men afterward.
He owns Epicurus big time.
Since you clearly have the inability to understand the analogy, I''ll sum it up for you:
1. The Creator made man.
2. The Creator gave man choices.
3. You fuck up- it's your own fault.