When im saying "practical but bad" im referring to Diablo 3's developers' way of thinking.
I am going to talk about the dev's as if what we have seen this far from videos / news / blue posts is the info that they gave us about their way of developing the game.
Are you with me?
For an example: In a normal game you carry a key and with that key you can open a locked chest. A d3 dev will tell you that the whole proccess of buying a key and using it,
or maybe even forgeting to get a key and then being stuck without a way to open some locked chest is not needed, and that it slows gameplay and blah blah....
Well, it is practical... You wont "waste" time on locked chests. But is this what we really want? the loss of the most basic elements of an RPG game,
and im not talking about keys and locked chests only, it was just an example. Try to figure out for yourself what other things have been "treated" like this ( the keys and locked chests) by the d3 dev's ?
What im trying to say is... Diablo always had this realistic feeling that i fear that will be lost with all of those arcade elements being implemented in diablo 3...
i know that it could be something that will really enhance gameplay and all, but i just dont want it to turn out bad, cuz it might.
If anyone doesnt understand this post, tell me i will try to clarify things... Disscuss.
That's their goal. If keys (or similar mechanics) do not fit this mold then do away with them. Game developers mold the game to the mechanics not the other way around.
I agree that in some case, you wonder if they asked themselves that and just cut features for nothing - but I'm confident that they have good judgement over that matter.
Following your example, the way keys and chests are done in Diablo 2, there is no discussion: it is a 100% pointless feature that fill up one of your slot bag with a set of key if you want to unlock locked chests. Thats all. And if you don't have one? Portal and buy one.
I believe in Blizzard (now the only game company I actually trust, like and support) and I think their teams are smart enough to not remove features that would actually add something to the game.
Of course, if you think having to carry around keys like you did in Diablo 2 added to the gameplay, then you will be disappointed.
Needing keys for locked chests = realism, which you subjectively think of as being 'good', or perhaps 'preferred' is a more generous term;
which is skipping the following: random locked chests (or unlocked ones, for that matter) scattered about every area for almost no reason other than as a vehicle to throw more shit (most of which is absolute junk, rarely even vendor junk) at the player.
See what I mean? And this is only one example, specifically your example.
I guess my opinion is you're halfway there -- practical yes, but 'bad'? Nah. I want more fun, less tedium. There's a balance involved, sure -- if we all started at lvl 99 with uniques it'd be really fun but it wouldn't last long.
But needing keys for locked chests when the stuff in the chests, 99.99999% of the time was crap, and wanting to get rid of this? This is a good thing.
Wanting an inventory that isn't needlessly tedious? This is a good thing.
They even spoke about getting rid of shrines not because they were inherently 'bad', but because they just didn't really add anything.
Does needing keys for useless chests add anything to D2? Absolutely not. I don't think I've ever met or played with a single person who actually picked up / carried keys in D2. Locked stuff was just ignored. Maybe in the first 5 levels it served a little purpose, but even then it's very questionable.
I guess I took the circuitous route, but here you go: No, I'm not with you. Without intending to insult you or flame you, I think you're in a minority camp of players who seem to think tedium in excess is a good thing, that it somehow adds 'needed' 'realism' to a game that neither needs it nor has any basis in realism past the most superficial examples.
Hey, while we're at it while not add a timer of sorts, based on what kind of item it is, so that your character is locked in place while he/she equips a new item? I mean, it can take a while to pull on a suit of armor, right? Being able to do it in 2 seconds with a mouse click isn't very realistic, is it? Do you see how this reasoning goes rather quickly?
As I said, there is a balance, and things like the tetris inventory and keys / locked chests, among other things (examples from D2, obviously) do weigh in, but there are ways to keep that balance that still add flavor and enjoyment to the game without miring it down in annoyances.
With the increased space that each character can have, with the ability to carry multiple bags, wasting space for a key isn't that big of a deal. Especially if 1 key stack can hold say 200 keys. The whole "I ignore locked chests" argument can be fixed by just adding better chances for good drops out of locked chests. This would add to the game and help people that kill their way to a boss instead a tradition teleport MF run get good items.
Who said keys are realistic? You go to town and buy these generic keys and fit them into random locks, which they somehow open... but then disappear... Lock picking would be realism, random keys are not
It would be much more realistic if locked chests were smashed open, or you smash the lock off
P.S - A more realistic example would be the Countess dropping a key, which you use to open her chest, and then you discard the key. But then that truly is a pointless feature... it may as well just open naturally
Who said keys are realistic? You go to town and buy these generic keys and fit them into random locks, which they somehow open... but then disappear... Lock picking would be realism, random keys are not
It would be much more realistic if locked chests were smashed open, or you smash the lock off
P.S - A more realistic example would be the Countess dropping a key, which you use to open her chest, and then you discard the key. But then that truly is a pointless feature... it may as well just open naturally
well said...
if they get rid of all the annoying things in rpgs that cause backtacking and stuff im all for it so i dont agree with op at all
hmm but about making locked chests better, so that keys are useful, and then making keys easy to get and stackable. That seems silly, basically it just makes locked chest rare chests, with a silly item dependence that is removed by the ease. If my mind serves me correctly, chests are already given in different types (just like D2, hopefully more tiers though). So I see no purpose in them.
You can of course make the keys are to find or limit their stack, but then you may either cause people to ignore them or backtrack to the hearest town.
I'm all for tried and true RPG style, but they tend have their wons way to deal with it:
-Make the key a reward for killing a boss or solving a puzzle
-Giving a character the skill (normally only done in constant multipler games or those with bots)
-letting your char choose it as a skill (normally done in games like the fallout seires where you chose your various advancement paths from generic character to a specific.)
-not having any locked chests
Well, you are all right. The keys and locked chests are not a good example.
But what will happen when they say that walking from town to some certain cave to do a quest is just pointless.... lets just make you teleport straight to the cave and straight to the action...
Its like ok, it logical and might be fun... But it discards the "Natural" feeling that some games had. Diablo 1 and 2 were one of them.
Picking up items that you know that you want to sell for gold is pointless, lets just make you have the gold already, and skip all the part where you gotta carry items and sell them... thats another example.
Im not saying that its going to happen, but thats the way they said they are making things, and it could be "Practical but Bad".
I don't think they should remove chests and key stuff, but to improve the system to something good.
Theres no reason to put keys in a game if they were abudant enough to every player open a locked chest all the time. But in other hand make keys rare can also add frustration to the player because he will become pretty sad to find a locked chest and have no keys - then you gotta find one in another map and come back, however backtrack is really terrible in diablo were the monsters do not respawn...
So, imo, the way a locked chest would work in D3 would be put the chest and it's key in the same dungeon (but in 2 distant rooms) to reward people that explore the whole thing instead of rush forward. It would also breaks a little bit of the linearity very present in D2's dungeons.
I don't agree with the "pratical but bad" statement. But i agree that instead of remove the useless/failed/negative features of D2 they should improve it. They could make something nice out of shrines too instead of just remove it.
I'm not sure what impact on fun any of this will have, but they are removing lots of those "real" (to quote the OP) features. They already removed repairing items, keys, and probably identifying items as well. They removed stat point allocation, stat requirements for items, ditched the skill tree system, most likely adding in skill respecs, make your character respawn with all the gear after death, and removed synergies. I like to say that if you liked Gauntlet, you'll like Diablo 3, because despite what the developers say, they seem to be removing lots of RPG elements to the game, and turning it into a complete 'hack 'n slash' game like Gauntlet (the Barbarian's rage is how you used skills in Gauntlet, too), except with items and more skills. Diablo 3 will be much less about character building or RPG experiences, and much more focused on just killing thousands of enemies.
I love Gauntlet, so it isn't that big of a deal for me, but when people say something is "different" about Diablo 3, this might be what they mean.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
D3 Pros: Outdoors environment, night time environment, female Barbarian, rune spell system, the Wizard class
D3 Cons: Fantasy architecture, fantasy armor, fanstasy weapons, no shaders.
I'm not sure what impact on fun any of this will have, but they are removing lots of those "real" (to quote the OP) features. They already removed repairing items, keys, and probably identifying items as well. They removed stat point allocation, stat requirements for items, ditched the skill tree system, most likely adding in skill respecs, make your character respawn with all the gear after death, and removed synergies. I like to say that if you liked Gauntlet, you'll like Diablo 3, because despite what the developers say, they seem to be removing lots of RPG elements to the game, and turning it into a complete 'hack 'n slash' game like Gauntlet (the Barbarian's rage is how you used skills in Gauntlet, too), except with items and more skills. Diablo 3 will be much less about character building or RPG experiences, and much more focused on just killing thousands of enemies.
I love Gauntlet, so it isn't that big of a deal for me, but when people say something is "different" about Diablo 3, this might be what they mean.
I"m gald when D3 come out you will see you're wrong :-)
Have alot of broken and flawed features is not been a RPG.
After playing assassin in D2, and not needing keys, and then switching back to another class, you'll see that the whole locked-chest-thing is kind of pointless. It's just annoying. Playing as an assassin is not any less fun as a result of not needing keys.
With that said, I wouldn't be infuriated if they chose to have locked chests in D3. I just think that whether they're there or not, is a non-issue.
What the OP seems to be talking about (locked chests maybe being a bad example) are things in the game that make it less streamlined, in which you have to break away from the action for a sec to deal with. But at the same time being somewhat realistic in keeping with the immersion factor.
I agree with you (OP) to that but most things that have been added for that are seen as tedious by most, though don't bother me much, and the Devs realizing that are just removing those aspects all together. The way they talk about implementing quests seems like a major way they will use to break ppl away from the, Point A to Point B, level race.
the whole key thing is a joke. They should not be in the game at all or any of the past games. Think about it for a minute, you have a sorceress that can shoot fire from her hands lighting from her ass and you think she can not open a lock box .....get real and you have a barb that has axes and enough power that to bash in diablo's head and you think he can not use a axe to cut the lock off that is enchated with frost......Think guys this is a stupid arguement. Trust me on this getting into a locked box is their least worry and probably the easiest thing they will do in the entire game other than walk and breathe
What the OP seems to be talking about (locked chests maybe being a bad example) are things in the game that make it less streamlined, in which you have to break away from the action for a sec to deal with. But at the same time being somewhat realistic in keeping with the immersion factor.
I agree with you (OP) to that but most things that have been added for that are seen as tedious by most, though don't bother me much, and the Devs realizing that are just removing those aspects all together. The way they talk about implementing quests seems like a major way they will use to break ppl away from the, Point A to Point B, level race.
What the OP seems to be talking about (locked chests maybe being a bad example) are things in the game that make it less streamlined, in which you have to break away from the action for a sec to deal with. But at the same time being somewhat realistic in keeping with the immersion factor.
However you and the OP cocerns don't need to be concerned because theres already announced features that will add break aways from the game.
Not just the great emphasis to quest that you already stated but how the game will be wroten. For exemple we will do not have only monologs, we will have dialogs, wich means our characters will speak, showing as their personality, their ethics, something never done in D2 besides the statements made when you eneter a dungeons.
Also every class will have a serie of unic quests that will shows their past, their personal goal and conflicts, giving as some possible good read while playing the game, unlike D2.
A third feature that are putted to slow(!) the pace of the game is something similar to Diablo 1 and Resisdent Evil 4 - you may find scrolls and books that tell you things about the gamelore, giving you another good read inside the game.
Beside all this stuff, they are surely hiding some nice features from us. For exemple, i believe we will have a craft system to replace the old runewords. This kidd of stuff may fill the void leaved by the keys, repair and such, but in a fun way, not only as inconvenient stuff to do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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I am going to talk about the dev's as if what we have seen this far from videos / news / blue posts is the info that they gave us about their way of developing the game.
Are you with me?
For an example: In a normal game you carry a key and with that key you can open a locked chest. A d3 dev will tell you that the whole proccess of buying a key and using it,
or maybe even forgeting to get a key and then being stuck without a way to open some locked chest is not needed, and that it slows gameplay and blah blah....
Well, it is practical... You wont "waste" time on locked chests. But is this what we really want? the loss of the most basic elements of an RPG game,
and im not talking about keys and locked chests only, it was just an example. Try to figure out for yourself what other things have been "treated" like this ( the keys and locked chests) by the d3 dev's ?
What im trying to say is... Diablo always had this realistic feeling that i fear that will be lost with all of those arcade elements being implemented in diablo 3...
i know that it could be something that will really enhance gameplay and all, but i just dont want it to turn out bad, cuz it might.
If anyone doesnt understand this post, tell me i will try to clarify things... Disscuss.
That's their goal. If keys (or similar mechanics) do not fit this mold then do away with them. Game developers mold the game to the mechanics not the other way around.
Following your example, the way keys and chests are done in Diablo 2, there is no discussion: it is a 100% pointless feature that fill up one of your slot bag with a set of key if you want to unlock locked chests. Thats all. And if you don't have one? Portal and buy one.
I believe in Blizzard (now the only game company I actually trust, like and support) and I think their teams are smart enough to not remove features that would actually add something to the game.
Of course, if you think having to carry around keys like you did in Diablo 2 added to the gameplay, then you will be disappointed.
Needing keys for locked chests = realism, which you subjectively think of as being 'good', or perhaps 'preferred' is a more generous term;
which is skipping the following: random locked chests (or unlocked ones, for that matter) scattered about every area for almost no reason other than as a vehicle to throw more shit (most of which is absolute junk, rarely even vendor junk) at the player.
See what I mean? And this is only one example, specifically your example.
I guess my opinion is you're halfway there -- practical yes, but 'bad'? Nah. I want more fun, less tedium. There's a balance involved, sure -- if we all started at lvl 99 with uniques it'd be really fun but it wouldn't last long.
But needing keys for locked chests when the stuff in the chests, 99.99999% of the time was crap, and wanting to get rid of this? This is a good thing.
Wanting an inventory that isn't needlessly tedious? This is a good thing.
They even spoke about getting rid of shrines not because they were inherently 'bad', but because they just didn't really add anything.
Does needing keys for useless chests add anything to D2? Absolutely not. I don't think I've ever met or played with a single person who actually picked up / carried keys in D2. Locked stuff was just ignored. Maybe in the first 5 levels it served a little purpose, but even then it's very questionable.
I guess I took the circuitous route, but here you go: No, I'm not with you. Without intending to insult you or flame you, I think you're in a minority camp of players who seem to think tedium in excess is a good thing, that it somehow adds 'needed' 'realism' to a game that neither needs it nor has any basis in realism past the most superficial examples.
Hey, while we're at it while not add a timer of sorts, based on what kind of item it is, so that your character is locked in place while he/she equips a new item? I mean, it can take a while to pull on a suit of armor, right? Being able to do it in 2 seconds with a mouse click isn't very realistic, is it? Do you see how this reasoning goes rather quickly?
As I said, there is a balance, and things like the tetris inventory and keys / locked chests, among other things (examples from D2, obviously) do weigh in, but there are ways to keep that balance that still add flavor and enjoyment to the game without miring it down in annoyances.
It would be much more realistic if locked chests were smashed open, or you smash the lock off
P.S - A more realistic example would be the Countess dropping a key, which you use to open her chest, and then you discard the key. But then that truly is a pointless feature... it may as well just open naturally
well said...
if they get rid of all the annoying things in rpgs that cause backtacking and stuff im all for it so i dont agree with op at all
You can of course make the keys are to find or limit their stack, but then you may either cause people to ignore them or backtrack to the hearest town.
I'm all for tried and true RPG style, but they tend have their wons way to deal with it:
-Make the key a reward for killing a boss or solving a puzzle
-Giving a character the skill (normally only done in constant multipler games or those with bots)
-letting your char choose it as a skill (normally done in games like the fallout seires where you chose your various advancement paths from generic character to a specific.)
-not having any locked chests
But what will happen when they say that walking from town to some certain cave to do a quest is just pointless.... lets just make you teleport straight to the cave and straight to the action...
Its like ok, it logical and might be fun... But it discards the "Natural" feeling that some games had. Diablo 1 and 2 were one of them.
Picking up items that you know that you want to sell for gold is pointless, lets just make you have the gold already, and skip all the part where you gotta carry items and sell them... thats another example.
Im not saying that its going to happen, but thats the way they said they are making things, and it could be "Practical but Bad".
You are right, i probably shouldnt worry... But there will be fear in my heart untill the day they release d3. and then, Joy and excitement. Hopefully
Theres no reason to put keys in a game if they were abudant enough to every player open a locked chest all the time. But in other hand make keys rare can also add frustration to the player because he will become pretty sad to find a locked chest and have no keys - then you gotta find one in another map and come back, however backtrack is really terrible in diablo were the monsters do not respawn...
So, imo, the way a locked chest would work in D3 would be put the chest and it's key in the same dungeon (but in 2 distant rooms) to reward people that explore the whole thing instead of rush forward. It would also breaks a little bit of the linearity very present in D2's dungeons.
I don't agree with the "pratical but bad" statement. But i agree that instead of remove the useless/failed/negative features of D2 they should improve it. They could make something nice out of shrines too instead of just remove it.
I love Gauntlet, so it isn't that big of a deal for me, but when people say something is "different" about Diablo 3, this might be what they mean.
D3 Pros: Outdoors environment, night time environment, female Barbarian, rune spell system, the Wizard class
D3 Cons: Fantasy architecture, fantasy armor, fanstasy weapons, no shaders.
I"m gald when D3 come out you will see you're wrong :-)
Have alot of broken and flawed features is not been a RPG.
With that said, I wouldn't be infuriated if they chose to have locked chests in D3. I just think that whether they're there or not, is a non-issue.
I agree with you (OP) to that but most things that have been added for that are seen as tedious by most, though don't bother me much, and the Devs realizing that are just removing those aspects all together. The way they talk about implementing quests seems like a major way they will use to break ppl away from the, Point A to Point B, level race.
That pretty much sums it all up, well said.
However you and the OP cocerns don't need to be concerned because theres already announced features that will add break aways from the game.
Not just the great emphasis to quest that you already stated but how the game will be wroten. For exemple we will do not have only monologs, we will have dialogs, wich means our characters will speak, showing as their personality, their ethics, something never done in D2 besides the statements made when you eneter a dungeons.
Also every class will have a serie of unic quests that will shows their past, their personal goal and conflicts, giving as some possible good read while playing the game, unlike D2.
A third feature that are putted to slow(!) the pace of the game is something similar to Diablo 1 and Resisdent Evil 4 - you may find scrolls and books that tell you things about the gamelore, giving you another good read inside the game.
Beside all this stuff, they are surely hiding some nice features from us. For exemple, i believe we will have a craft system to replace the old runewords. This kidd of stuff may fill the void leaved by the keys, repair and such, but in a fun way, not only as inconvenient stuff to do.