I play Torchlight and have those sort of buffs. Not to mention that is the direction they're taking buffs, they've changed the Monk's Auras to work like that. I hated having to have a skill which just offered a bonus without my active participation like the old Paladin.
There's no functional difference between a buff and a passive assuming buff length = buff cooldown. So I really don't see the point.
Active participation? One more button to click? You sound like those SC players who think automining simplifies the game.
So I did a little bit of looking around to see how the over all skill layout for all the classes. Mainly tier 7 skills have functions either as AoE damage, or some other type. WD has summon army, a DoT which summons a pet if it kills its target, and a big AoE. Wizard has the Familiar or Teleport. Monk has a Aura, Multi-strike ability, or AoE. I guess my thought is that Tier 7 are cool abilities but not a straight up damage attack. They seem more additive then just an attack.
I guess my thought is I see 4 straight up damage abilities, with at least one damage ability per class.
I would accept the DoT's if this was a crawler but with how many enemies Diablo typically has, and how quickly they go down, DoTs seem kind of pointless, except for bosses (see my above comment about bosses). Unless it's a massive DoT, I'm confused about the "its target" thing in tha tcase.
My calculation attributes that you only pick one skill per each tier.
I was arguing from that originally, but I was told that may be wrong currently. Even then, this makes the situation worse, much worse. You may easily end up with 1-2 builds per class if that is true.
I was thinking about this idea that certain specs can't work without other skills, I believe only one skill has a requirement of another skill.
It's hard to say considering how little info we have on the skills right now.
One example is that since WD's tier 1 skills are Dog and Plague, and assuming we can only choose one skill per tier, if he chooses Plague, Sacrifice becomes pointless. Except maybe it works with Parasite.
In fact, Dog and Plague may very well define a strong wall between the summoner WD and caster WD. Hybrids are still possible with the other spells but not pure builds. In DII, getting bone armor doesn't mean I can't summon skeletons.
If he chooses a curse ability in too many tiers, he'll be forced to compensate with damage abilities. There are going to be many forced damage-utility tradeoffs. And since the choices are blocked out strongly, they won't be soft tradeoffs like in DII (slightly less damage, slightly more defense).
Horrify and Soul Harvest don't make much sense together.
Overall, the curses will most probably cancel each other out. So will the damage abilities.
You can't combine stuff like Firebomb and Acid Storm.
Poison Dart is the stronger single target spell in lower tiers, if I understand right, which means it may end up having priority over other skills. Any skill that has a uniqueness state may block others out.
Haunt and Locust Swarm are the same thing, doubt we'll see these together.
Oh I just base the last sections on what I've seen. No matter where you go people reach consensus on what they consider the best by some mathematical formula. Then they are argued over if there is no clear leader. I never care for this and just make my own build, playing with friends means I don't have to worry about being the BEST build.
What they consider the best is rather irrelevant. It's most important that Blizzard follows players after launch and adjust according to player builds, not their formula.
It's really not about best builds per se, but about drastic differences between builds (balance). Some build dealing 1k more damage then another is not an issue. But if there's a Hammerdin alike build in DIII it needs to be hit by the nerfbat.
I just wonder if they're not making their balancing job a lot harder with all these mechanics. They have to balance tiers and cooldowns now, instead of one skill vs another.
I play Torchlight and have those sort of buffs. Not to mention that is the direction they're taking buffs, they've changed the Monk's Auras to work like that. I hated having to have a skill which just offered a bonus without my active participation like the old Paladin.
There's no functional difference between a buff and a passive assuming buff length = buff cooldown. So I really don't see the point.
Active participation? One more button to click? You sound like those SC players who think automining simplifies the game.
See I like to think that it relates to my characters awareness in the fight, I'm very much about playing in character.
So I did a little bit of looking around to see how the over all skill layout for all the classes. Mainly tier 7 skills have functions either as AoE damage, or some other type. WD has summon army, a DoT which summons a pet if it kills its target, and a big AoE. Wizard has the Familiar or Teleport. Monk has a Aura, Multi-strike ability, or AoE. I guess my thought is that Tier 7 are cool abilities but not a straight up damage attack. They seem more additive then just an attack.
I guess my thought is I see 4 straight up damage abilities, with at least one damage ability per class.
I would accept the DoT's if this was a crawler but with how many enemies Diablo typically has, and how quickly they go down, DoTs seem kind of pointless, except for bosses (see my above comment about bosses). Unless it's a massive DoT, I'm confused about the "its target" thing in tha tcase.
Sigh so hard to write on the iPad with long post. We both can agree we don't know the full function of thins ability, I like to look at it one of two ways; first it allows you to get dogs if you go frogs, the other it allows you to go over the cap. Who knows runes may make it contagious.
My calculation attributes that you only pick one skill per each tier.
I was arguing from that originally, but I was told that may be wrong currently. Even then, this makes the situation worse, much worse. You may easily end up with 1-2 builds per class if that is true.
By my calculations that means 2880 diffent build possibilities if you pick one from each tier. I don't think that sounds limited is my point.
I was thinking about this idea that certain specs can't work without other skills, I believe only one skill has a requirement of another skill.
It's hard to say considering how little info we have on the skills right now.
One example is that since WD's tier 1 skills are Dog and Plague, and assuming we can only choose one skill per tier, if he chooses Plague, Sacrifice becomes pointless. Except maybe it works with Parasite.
In fact, Dog and Plague may very well define a strong wall between the summoner WD and caster WD. Hybrids are still possible with the other spells but not pure builds. In DII, getting bone armor doesn't mean I can't summon skeletons.
If he chooses a curse ability in too many tiers, he'll be forced to compensate with damage abilities. There are going to be many forced damage-utility tradeoffs. And since the choices are blocked out strongly, they won't be soft tradeoffs like in DII (slightly less damage, slightly more defense).
Horrify and Soul Harvest don't make much sense together.
Overall, the curses will most probably cancel each other out. So will the damage abilities.
You can't combine stuff like Firebomb and Acid Storm.
Poison Dart is the stronger single target spell in lower tiers, if I understand right, which means it may end up having priority over other skills. Any skill that has a uniqueness state may block others out.
Haunt and Locust Swarm are the same thing, doubt we'll see these together.
Haunt and Locust Swarm sound great actually stack infectious DoTs. Throw those two up and destroy armies by eating them away, literally.
Horrify may have them running around in circles while you can suck more life from them unharmed. Though you could be right, we have to see.
Firebomb being a choice over Acid Storm is interesting to me, not a negative.
Poison Dart always looked boring to me, but I understand how everyone else would look at as great because of the direct damage.
Oh I just base the last sections on what I've seen. No matter where you go people reach consensus on what they consider the best by some mathematical formula. Then they are argued over if there is no clear leader. I never care for this and just make my own build, playing with friends means I don't have to worry about being the BEST build.
What they consider the best is rather irrelevant. It's most important that Blizzard follows players after launch and adjust according to player builds, not their formula.
It's really not about best builds per se, but about drastic differences between builds (balance). Some build dealing 1k more damage then another is not an issue. But if there's a Hammerdin alike build in DIII it needs to be hit by the nerfbat.
I just wonder if they're not making their balancing job a lot harder with all these mechanics. They have to balance tiers and cooldowns now, instead of one skill vs another.
I think it might be easier since they only have to balance out the tiers though we will see.
In PvE you may be mobbed or cornered, so you will use your "nuke" skill to make an opening and escape, but I wonder if such skill would be powerful enough to wipe the screen.
If not, and I think it will be so, you better have some other ace up your sleeve or you'll die.
Doesn't matter if they wipe the screen or make you stronger like a buff or anything else. If they give you a significant advantage, you're going to want them. If the enemies are very tough, when the effects go away, you'll retreat until they recover. Especially in HC.
Maybe, maybe not. Example: I use a 7 tier 2 min CD skill and manage to lower enemies hitpoints by half, then I run away and wait for cooldown to expire and when I go back to finish them off they have restored their hitpoints. Hit and run won't work in such situation.
Buffs or CC skills will work in whole different ways too, but since I know very little I will not speculate about such skills.
We just have to wait and see, as long as they are not the only viable way to play the game, I'm happy.
And, I repeat myself here, nuke-run-nuke-run is a legit strategy so can't see the problem here.
I know I'd find it extremely boring so I'll go for something else.
It's boring, yes. That's kind of my point. Progress would be very slow.
It will work relatively fine (But be quite pointless, I reckon. Diablo is too much of a ridiculously fast paced game for this to make any sense to me. It would seem random, for lack of a better word, if every other minute you suddenly get much stronger for a while. A minute is a very long time in Diablo. It would feel like hitting a bonus on Bejeweled.) as long as it's just an efficiency boost. But when you come to a place that you can't handle without the buff, that's when you're getting the hit and run gameplay.
Yeah, I can't even consider to play through the game always using "hit and run" approach.
Sometimes you may need it but as long as it is my choice to decide when, how and how long that's fine.
Maybe, maybe not. Example: I use a 7 tier 2 min CD skill and manage to lower enemies hitpoints by half, then I run away and wait for cooldown to expire and when I go back to finish them off they have restored their hitpoints. Hit and run won't work in such situation.
It would. You'd kill them off after the tier 7 skill weakened them. Then you'd run home and wait for it to recover.
Ok a nuke by definition has an ability to one button clear an area or severely weaken an opponent. The two of the abilities we've heard have a 2 min cool down aren't direct damage, one being a summon, the other a buff.
Matter of fact very few are direct damage. The most direct damage we have is the Monk who randomly hits X targets. Some are summons, a movement spell, and even buffs. My point is that tier 7 doesn't equal nukes.
Earthquake is something I would consider an AoE, which means it offers great damage but over a wide area. This would be best in Zombie scenario, when you're ganged up by quite a few enemies, probably also could be used to generate a lot of agro if you're trying to tank.
That is the other thing we don't know what Earthquakes niche is, a quick clear, or a quick grab. Even though this game is something everyone can solo doesn't mean it isn't something you can build to group in. Barbarians make great tanks and Monks have healing options. Maybe Earthquake is more utility than most think.
Mruos I slightly confused with your comment right now. We've been discussing the tiers as either too over power thus requiring CDs to manage them, or Nukes and thus OP. My goal is to open that none or these may be the case. I think that they will be balanced and fit into people's play styles. They will be additives and not the BEST spell for spamming.
Yes I will want a tier 7 spell but I'm not sure that is even a choice. Some look at the way spell slots unlock as if your limited to one spell per tier, that is my interpretation. I look forward to it, but I also wouldn't say they're advantages anymore than any spell. They are spells, abilities that give your character... character.
Mruos I slightly confused with your comment right now. We've been discussing the tiers as either too over power thus requiring CDs to manage them, or Nukes and thus OP. My goal is to open that none or these may be the case. I think that they will be balanced and fit into people's play styles. They will be additives and not the BEST spell for spamming.
If they don't have a long cooldown it's not a problem. If they're not that powerful it's not a problem. But if they are very effective and have a long cooldown, you get the option of hit and run gameplay when faced with difficult enemies.
Only two classes can likely use such a strategy, but your right. I can't argue with that and your welcome to it. Though if the strategy issued for any length of time I'm sure Blizz will fix it from being a reliable one.
I'd rather have 2 min cooldown skills in an awesome game where I can actually use more than 2-3 skills strategically, than "no cooldown" skills like most in D2 and be forced to use the same spell over and over and over again for the whole game (adding maybe 1 more as a debuffer and 1 as a defensive armor spell that would be active all the time - more like a passive that I had to manually cast always).
I'm glad the Barbarian seems actually fun to play right now, with Ground Slam and stuff like that. If calling badass Barbarians to help me for 10-15 seconds and see them smash people's face during that time can't have a symbolic 2 min cooldown, I don't know what can have.
2 mins is barely anything. You could probably use it multiple times in a single dungeon. Back at Blizzcon 2011, an "alpha build" dungeon would take us most of all the 15 minutes of testing (and that was rushing through monsters and not wasting time). It's just to make sure you actually think before wasting that precious time-limited skill on normal Hell monsters, instead of unique ones.
Yes, they will recover hitpoints. But that won't render hit and run tactics inviable as long as each "hit" is enough to kill a significant amount of enemies. So I'm not really sure what your point is.
Guess you win this argument then. It isn't like there has ever been a mob that could rez fallen characters before, within the whole history of Diablo no less.
Hey guys im just wondering what do you guys think about Skills with Cooldowns in PvE.
In my opinion CDs just dont fit in the Diablo play stile, also i think that 2 min CD is way too long for Diablo Skills, i cant see myself waiting 2 min for a VERY COOL skill to recharge,cool skills should be able to be cast often and i just keep forgetting to use spells with more than 30 sec CD, so what is teh point of having CD.
I just think if they want to fix a skill usage, like to fix the Teleport skill from Diablo 2, they should just increase the amount of resource spent to be able to use certain skill.
Well.....
Maybe im too damn sick of WoW and all those ^%$^%$ CDs.
I'm not a big fan of cooldowns, but I'm guessing they want to get players to use more then a few skills (diablo 2).
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Active participation? One more button to click? You sound like those SC players who think automining simplifies the game.
What's the difference? o.O Are you talking about cast time?
Hmm.
Summon.
DoT.
AoE.
Summon.
Movement.
Aura.
Damage.
AoE.
I guess my thought is I see 4 straight up damage abilities, with at least one damage ability per class.
I would accept the DoT's if this was a crawler but with how many enemies Diablo typically has, and how quickly they go down, DoTs seem kind of pointless, except for bosses (see my above comment about bosses). Unless it's a massive DoT, I'm confused about the "its target" thing in tha tcase.
I was arguing from that originally, but I was told that may be wrong currently. Even then, this makes the situation worse, much worse. You may easily end up with 1-2 builds per class if that is true.
It's hard to say considering how little info we have on the skills right now.
One example is that since WD's tier 1 skills are Dog and Plague, and assuming we can only choose one skill per tier, if he chooses Plague, Sacrifice becomes pointless. Except maybe it works with Parasite.
In fact, Dog and Plague may very well define a strong wall between the summoner WD and caster WD. Hybrids are still possible with the other spells but not pure builds. In DII, getting bone armor doesn't mean I can't summon skeletons.
If he chooses a curse ability in too many tiers, he'll be forced to compensate with damage abilities. There are going to be many forced damage-utility tradeoffs. And since the choices are blocked out strongly, they won't be soft tradeoffs like in DII (slightly less damage, slightly more defense).
Horrify and Soul Harvest don't make much sense together.
Overall, the curses will most probably cancel each other out. So will the damage abilities.
You can't combine stuff like Firebomb and Acid Storm.
Poison Dart is the stronger single target spell in lower tiers, if I understand right, which means it may end up having priority over other skills. Any skill that has a uniqueness state may block others out.
Haunt and Locust Swarm are the same thing, doubt we'll see these together.
What they consider the best is rather irrelevant. It's most important that Blizzard follows players after launch and adjust according to player builds, not their formula.
It's really not about best builds per se, but about drastic differences between builds (balance). Some build dealing 1k more damage then another is not an issue. But if there's a Hammerdin alike build in DIII it needs to be hit by the nerfbat.
I just wonder if they're not making their balancing job a lot harder with all these mechanics. They have to balance tiers and cooldowns now, instead of one skill vs another.
The difference is that you can rapid teleport out if need be with this type if ruin, of which there are many others.
Sigh so hard to write on the iPad with long post. We both can agree we don't know the full function of thins ability, I like to look at it one of two ways; first it allows you to get dogs if you go frogs, the other it allows you to go over the cap. Who knows runes may make it contagious.
By my calculations that means 2880 diffent build possibilities if you pick one from each tier. I don't think that sounds limited is my point.
Haunt and Locust Swarm sound great actually stack infectious DoTs. Throw those two up and destroy armies by eating them away, literally.
Horrify may have them running around in circles while you can suck more life from them unharmed. Though you could be right, we have to see.
Firebomb being a choice over Acid Storm is interesting to me, not a negative.
Poison Dart always looked boring to me, but I understand how everyone else would look at as great because of the direct damage.
I think it might be easier since they only have to balance out the tiers though we will see.
I hope (and think) that no skill will be so powerful to wipe the screen.
Maybe, maybe not. Example: I use a 7 tier 2 min CD skill and manage to lower enemies hitpoints by half, then I run away and wait for cooldown to expire and when I go back to finish them off they have restored their hitpoints. Hit and run won't work in such situation.
Buffs or CC skills will work in whole different ways too, but since I know very little I will not speculate about such skills.
We just have to wait and see, as long as they are not the only viable way to play the game, I'm happy.
Yeah, I can't even consider to play through the game always using "hit and run" approach.
Sometimes you may need it but as long as it is my choice to decide when, how and how long that's fine.
Ok a nuke by definition has an ability to one button clear an area or severely weaken an opponent. The two of the abilities we've heard have a 2 min cool down aren't direct damage, one being a summon, the other a buff.
Matter of fact very few are direct damage. The most direct damage we have is the Monk who randomly hits X targets. Some are summons, a movement spell, and even buffs. My point is that tier 7 doesn't equal nukes.
That is the other thing we don't know what Earthquakes niche is, a quick clear, or a quick grab. Even though this game is something everyone can solo doesn't mean it isn't something you can build to group in. Barbarians make great tanks and Monks have healing options. Maybe Earthquake is more utility than most think.
Yes I will want a tier 7 spell but I'm not sure that is even a choice. Some look at the way spell slots unlock as if your limited to one spell per tier, that is my interpretation. I look forward to it, but I also wouldn't say they're advantages anymore than any spell. They are spells, abilities that give your character... character.
I'm glad the Barbarian seems actually fun to play right now, with Ground Slam and stuff like that. If calling badass Barbarians to help me for 10-15 seconds and see them smash people's face during that time can't have a symbolic 2 min cooldown, I don't know what can have.
2 mins is barely anything. You could probably use it multiple times in a single dungeon. Back at Blizzcon 2011, an "alpha build" dungeon would take us most of all the 15 minutes of testing (and that was rushing through monsters and not wasting time). It's just to make sure you actually think before wasting that precious time-limited skill on normal Hell monsters, instead of unique ones.
I'm not a big fan of cooldowns, but I'm guessing they want to get players to use more then a few skills (diablo 2).