And I approve of this change, it made no sense to me to have a flat level playing field, why would I ever go past act 1 ever in inferno if there was the exact same chance of end game items.
Because you wanted a change of scenery?
One of the points of Inferno originally was that you would not be confined to a specific area which were in line with your current strength, but instead could choose to play in the act or area you happened to prefer to play in.
It meant that all 4 acts were end-game, instead of just the last act being end-game.
This change also pretty much means that Inferno is "just another difficulty" like the others.
To be honest, Blizzard should have removed Nightmare dificulty a long time ago, it makes very little sense to have it, other than for mindless repetitiveness.
Normal-Hell could have the lvl 1-60 progress, and Inferno would be end-game as it is now, but having that pretty much pointless difficulty stuck in the middle is weird - just like Nightmare was for the most part the difficulty you just wanted to get over with in D2, and that was with just 3 difficulties rather than 4.
I 100% disagree.
Nightmare is not useless.
This change also clearly underlines why the game will need some actual end-game content post-release. Inferno is unlikely to cut it.
Well since you are now in the category: I don't believe blizzard, it will be easy. There is not much else to speak with you since you already have a fictional way of viewing the game.
Well since you are now in the category: I don't believe blizzard, it will be easy. There is not much else to speak with you since you already have a fictional way of viewing the game.
Hm, I dont think I said it would be easy. I said it wouldn't cut it. Which is not the same thing at all
1) It is "just another difficulty", exactly like Hell, just harder. Which isn't exactly mindbogglingly interesting.
It does not offer anything new compared to Hell, just higher numbers - irregardless of how difficult it is.
2) You get better gear while you progress through it. The difficulty has a hard limit set by its design => While you grind gear Inferno will become easier. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 month or 6 months. Doesn't matter if it will still be challenging after 6 months either.
If content keeps scaling forever after (up to being outright impossible to beat), then even the very best player with the most godly gear would be able to start up a game and challenge himself again. Also after 6 months or 5 years.
Well since you are now in the category: I don't believe blizzard, it will be easy. There is not much else to speak with you since you already have a fictional way of viewing the game.
Hm, I dont think I said it would be easy. I said it wouldn't cut it. Which is not the same thing at all
1) It is "just another difficulty", exactly like Hell, just harder. Which isn't exactly mindbogglingly interesting.
2) You get better gear while you progress through it. The difficulty has a hard limit set by its design => While you grind gear Inferno will become easier. Doens't matter if it takes 1 month or 6 months. Doesnt matter if it will still be challenging after 6 months either.
If content keeps scaling forever after (up to being outright impossible to beat), then even the very best player with the most godly gear would be able to start up a game and challenge himself again. Also after 6 months or 5 years.
Then why are you complaining, there is far more potential for a long game with a linear progression rather than a flat one.
Oh I get it I think. You mean once you reached max gear/level it's better to be able to farm 4 acts rather than 2 ?
Hmmm meh I agree on that part.
But on the other hand I feel there is more potential to make the whole inferno a better experience to go through it with this linear system. Before it was likely that inferno gets easier and easier which makes no sense from an achivement perspective. But from a farmer perspective ? Hmmm maybe yes but I still prefer it this way.
If content keeps scaling forever after (up to being outright impossible to beat), then even the very best player with the most godly gear would be able to start up a game and challenge himself again. Also after 6 months or 5 years.
That's what was most mind blowing to me when they announced the game. Kind of like playing a game like Gears of War 3 or God of War 3 in the highest difficulty, it's always a refreshing challenge.
Don't get me wrong by the way, I'm not saying Inferno will be easy at all (I don't think anyone is), I'm just pointing out how what I perceive as a "design issue" regarding difficulty progression. We have no idea what we're getting ourselves into talking about until we experience it first hand.
And before it's brought up, the fact that we won't level 5 or 10 more levels won't mean anything. I say this because I believe that levels in the current version are a slight buff to stats (and not the main way to increase it - this comes from items) and skills aren't necessarily 10x better at level 50-60, just different than low level ones (just as viable), so the fact that you can't level doesn't mean a lot.
Well since you are now in the category: I don't believe blizzard, it will be easy. There is not much else to speak with you since you already have a fictional way of viewing the game.
Hm, I dont think I said it would be easy. I said it wouldn't cut it. Which is not the same thing at all
1) It is "just another difficulty", exactly like Hell, just harder. Which isn't exactly mindbogglingly interesting.
2) You get better gear while you progress through it. The difficulty has a hard limit set by its design => While you grind gear Inferno will become easier. Doens't matter if it takes 1 month or 6 months. Doesnt matter if it will still be challenging after 6 months either.
If content keeps scaling forever after (up to being outright impossible to beat), then even the very best player with the most godly gear would be able to start up a game and challenge himself again. Also after 6 months or 5 years.
Then why are you complaining, there is far more potential for a long game with a linear progression rather than a flat one.
Oh I get it I think. You mean once you reached max gear/level it's better to be able to farm 4 acts rather than 2 ?
Hmmm meh I agree on that part.
Yeah that is it. I'm not saying there aren't obvious benefits to the new way Inferno works - it will be much easier for Blizzard to offer challenges in Inferno for everyone. If everything in Inferno was equal, then some people would find it too easy and some too hard. The new scaling makes it easier to offer a challenge to more people, but it comes at the (imo) great cost of limiting the available content for any given progression point. As an example some people will be "forced" to play act 1 or 2, because they cant handle 3-4 yet, others will feel "forced" to only do act 3-4 because they have out-geared/out-skilled act1-2 after some time. Whereas before, you could pick any area you wanted.
I wont judge if the above tradeoff is worth it, I just think this change means that even more so than before, the game will need to get more types of end-game to keep the game interesting at lvl 60.
I'd take blizzards scaling of difficulty with a grain of salt, because its all perspective of the player. I can't tell if the difficulty is going to be needing lots of gear, or that you need a mix of gear and ability to react quickly to boss moves that become quicker through the difficulties.
The thing he said that threw me off is that in some other answer I recall bashiok saying that players will need to tweak their builds in inferno when answering a question about high level runes unlocks. But didn't blizzard also say that the builds will be balanced so that one will might barely be better then another? I mean if that's true there isn't much to mess up in a build besides taking like all generating or signature attacks. Contradicting stuff like that always makes we wondering when blizzard says somethings "hard" if its actually hard.
i like the fact that act 1 will not be as hard as act 4. You still can get your upgrades from Acts 1 and 2 with how many affixes and chances to roll stats are, as well as farm 3 and 4 for the elite of the elite armor and weapons. Not to mention the salvageable magic items and pages for crafting and chances for recipe drops. Hell, you can even run through acts 1 and 2 for stuff to put on the RMAH I'm sure anything from inferno will have a market.
more importantly, it has to do with the flow and dynamic of the game. As stated it just wouldn't feel right defeating the last boss in act 4 and it be just as hard as the first boss in act 1. I really don't think people will think that the game is too easy once it goes live, except for the few people who say if its doable then its too easy.
Diablo 3 inferno will still be very hard, it will only be for the hardcore maniacs who want to smash their faces trying to survive. Everyone is still going to be farming Hell just to be able to do inferno and after all that you will still have to farm Acts 1 and 2 before you move on to 3 and 4 in inferno. Maybe by the time the majority of the elite diablo players are making it through Inferno they'll drop the PVP bomb.
Edit: I really don't care what they do to the game before its released. They could replace all the skills with rainbow pony explosions i just want the game now!
its fine to me, i'll just enjoy playing the game. i won't complain. i'll just be glad that there is an awesome multiplayer hack and slash game to play with all my friends and distract me from all the bullshit life has to offer. why complain so much? seems like so many ungrateful fans out there. shut up and take my money.
So either harder content for better drop chance of the best gear or easier content for a lower drop chance of the best gear? I think the kill rate will make up for the drop chance loss unless they really perfected the math on it. I have a feeling people who are trying to get the best gear will just beat Act III and IV for the achieves then farm Act I and II forever, giving us less content (with the proper incentive) to farm.
Thats not how I read it at all
Then you didn't read it all
Even though the theoretical best items might come from the later Acts, well-rolled items from earlier acts will still be better.
I think your not understanding what he meant correctly.
What that quote you just linked says is, that the best items in the game come from the later acts. Period. But of course, well rolled items from earlier will be better than poorly rolled items from later in inferno.
Yes you need to add the 'than poorly rolled items" but thats obvisouly what he means.
Nope it's not "obviously what he means".
It’s all because of the highly random items having lots of overlap in their power distribution curves
Edit - in the intrest of civility, ill retract my last.
:Regardless it doesn't change the fact that they state you WILL NOT stroll through any of the Inferno content, so whats the problem?
Not one of us have even seen any inferno content yet we are calling nerf's how do you know it didn't need nerfing even for the "elite players"?
Edit: My post is direct at Atreyor.
We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.
What don't you understand in this sentence ? All inferno was brutally hard, and now Act 1&2 are less brutally hard. That's a fact ! They didn't made act 3&4 harder than it was before.That's a fact !
And i really liked the fact you could farm wherever you wanted in the game, doing "baal run" again just broke the most interesting feat. ( farming 2 last acts are not "Baal run", but it shorten the farming spot choice by half)
Well ... wait & see !
I don't see any facts stating that they made anything easier. All that's plainly stated is that ACT 3 and 4 were made harder. How do people keep saying its a nerf. BEYOND ME.
:Regardless it doesn't change the fact that they state you WILL NOT stroll through any of the Inferno content, so whats the problem?
Not one of us have even seen any inferno content yet we are calling nerf's how do you know it didn't need nerfing even for the "elite players"?
Edit: My post is direct at Atreyor.
We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.
What don't you understand in this sentence ? All inferno was brutally hard, and now Act 1&2 are less brutally hard. That's a fact ! They didn't made act 3&4 harder than it was before.That's a fact !
And i really liked the fact you could farm wherever you wanted in the game, doing "baal run" again just broke the most interesting feat. ( farming 2 last acts are not "Baal run", but it shorten the farming spot choice by half)
Well ... wait & see !
These are ENTIRE ACT'S we are talking about here, 2 of them and from my understanding the last acts have the highest chance of dropping the highest possible rolls on items but the rest of inferno can still drop the items just the chances aren't as high.
They said A perfect roll from act 1/2 will outdo a not so perfect roll from Act 3/4 thats a good balance, you can still happily farm the first acts and get some of the best gear in the game, its only for the absolute, total, elitest, Min Max'er that will "Need" act 4 drops.
Slightly more towards you is like above I read that statement as they made the last 2 acts harder, and NOT the first 2 easier.
:Regardless it doesn't change the fact that they state you WILL NOT stroll through any of the Inferno content, so whats the problem?
Not one of us have even seen any inferno content yet we are calling nerf's how do you know it didn't need nerfing even for the "elite players"?
Edit: My post is direct at Atreyor.
We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.
What don't you understand in this sentence ? All inferno was brutally hard, and now Act 1&2 are less brutally hard. That's a fact ! They didn't made act 3&4 harder than it was before.That's a fact !
And i really liked the fact you could farm wherever you wanted in the game, doing "baal run" again just broke the most interesting feat. ( farming 2 last acts are not "Baal run", but it shorten the farming spot choice by half)
Well ... wait & see !
These are ENTIRE ACT'S we are talking about here, 2 of them and from my understanding the last acts have the highest chance of dropping the highest possible rolls on items but the rest of inferno can still drop the items just the chances aren't as high.
They said A perfect roll from act 1/2 will outdo a not so perfect roll from Act 3/4 thats a good balance, you can still happily farm the first acts and get some of the best gear in the game, its only for the absolute, total, elitest, Min Max'er that will "Need" act 4 drops.
Slightly more towards you is like above I read that statement as they made the last 2 acts harder, and NOT the first 2 easier.
Mmm i can't learn you how to read and understand english, believe what you want i don't care
Then why are you pushing your inference and opinion off as fact?
I imagine they will lower one side of the spectrum as much as they increase the other. Just my take, all we can really do is speculate. They want us to continue to have a feeling of progression in inferno, that's all this really proves thus far.
It's really not something to be scared of. And in fact was actually quite intelligent of them.
Under a flat Inferno difficulty curve, ALL of inferno was going to be one difficulty: balls-hard. That means that Act 1 was the same difficulty as Act 4. It also means that once you beat Hell, you hit a huge wall, forcing you to continue grinding in Hell. Hitting walls in difficulty is just not very much fun when you want to progress from one difficulty to the next. You've already beaten Hell, you want to start making progress on the next level. This change does a better job of transitioning players from Hell into Inferno, while still preserving the balls-hard difficulty for Acts 3 and 4.
A big part of it is also human psychology. Players will sit here and bitch and cry endlessly, "WAHHHHH! We wanted all of Inferno to be the exact same balls-difficult experience start to finish!" Unfortunately, it's another case of players thinking they know what they want but really not. There's gameplay and behavioral reasons for having the difficulty continue to scale upwards even across Inferno, and for making a smoother transition upwards than just simply a flat difficulty curve.
Beyond that, it's endlessly amusing to hear people who likely have no hardmode raid achievements in the slightest try to pretend that because they could get through Cata heroics that they're the pinnacle of gaming, and D3 won't provide a challenge in the slightest XD
I'm preserving user names and posts from this thread so that a few weeks after release, we can all have a good, long laugh as some of these children are forced to eat their words :3
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I 100% disagree.
Nightmare is not useless.
Well since you are now in the category: I don't believe blizzard, it will be easy. There is not much else to speak with you since you already have a fictional way of viewing the game.
1) It is "just another difficulty", exactly like Hell, just harder. Which isn't exactly mindbogglingly interesting.
It does not offer anything new compared to Hell, just higher numbers - irregardless of how difficult it is.
2) You get better gear while you progress through it. The difficulty has a hard limit set by its design => While you grind gear Inferno will become easier. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 month or 6 months. Doesn't matter if it will still be challenging after 6 months either.
If content keeps scaling forever after (up to being outright impossible to beat), then even the very best player with the most godly gear would be able to start up a game and challenge himself again. Also after 6 months or 5 years.
I can't argue with that logic of course, but just out of interest, what is the use of Nightmare in your opinion?
Then why are you complaining, there is far more potential for a long game with a linear progression rather than a flat one.
Oh I get it I think. You mean once you reached max gear/level it's better to be able to farm 4 acts rather than 2 ?
Hmmm meh I agree on that part.
But on the other hand I feel there is more potential to make the whole inferno a better experience to go through it with this linear system. Before it was likely that inferno gets easier and easier which makes no sense from an achivement perspective. But from a farmer perspective ? Hmmm maybe yes but I still prefer it this way.
Don't get me wrong by the way, I'm not saying Inferno will be easy at all (I don't think anyone is), I'm just pointing out how what I perceive as a "design issue" regarding difficulty progression. We have no idea what we're
getting ourselves intotalking about until we experience it first hand.And before it's brought up, the fact that we won't level 5 or 10 more levels won't mean anything. I say this because I believe that levels in the current version are a slight buff to stats (and not the main way to increase it - this comes from items) and skills aren't necessarily 10x better at level 50-60, just different than low level ones (just as viable), so the fact that you can't level doesn't mean a lot.
I wont judge if the above tradeoff is worth it, I just think this change means that even more so than before, the game will need to get more types of end-game to keep the game interesting at lvl 60.
The thing he said that threw me off is that in some other answer I recall bashiok saying that players will need to tweak their builds in inferno when answering a question about high level runes unlocks. But didn't blizzard also say that the builds will be balanced so that one will might barely be better then another? I mean if that's true there isn't much to mess up in a build besides taking like all generating or signature attacks. Contradicting stuff like that always makes we wondering when blizzard says somethings "hard" if its actually hard.
more importantly, it has to do with the flow and dynamic of the game. As stated it just wouldn't feel right defeating the last boss in act 4 and it be just as hard as the first boss in act 1. I really don't think people will think that the game is too easy once it goes live, except for the few people who say if its doable then its too easy.
Diablo 3 inferno will still be very hard, it will only be for the hardcore maniacs who want to smash their faces trying to survive. Everyone is still going to be farming Hell just to be able to do inferno and after all that you will still have to farm Acts 1 and 2 before you move on to 3 and 4 in inferno. Maybe by the time the majority of the elite diablo players are making it through Inferno they'll drop the PVP bomb.
Edit: I really don't care what they do to the game before its released. They could replace all the skills with rainbow pony explosions i just want the game now!
Edit - in the intrest of civility, ill retract my last.
So l'll leave it as just: your wrong.
I don't see any facts stating that they made anything easier. All that's plainly stated is that ACT 3 and 4 were made harder. How do people keep saying its a nerf. BEYOND ME.
These are ENTIRE ACT'S we are talking about here, 2 of them and from my understanding the last acts have the highest chance of dropping the highest possible rolls on items but the rest of inferno can still drop the items just the chances aren't as high.
They said A perfect roll from act 1/2 will outdo a not so perfect roll from Act 3/4 thats a good balance, you can still happily farm the first acts and get some of the best gear in the game, its only for the absolute, total, elitest, Min Max'er that will "Need" act 4 drops.
Slightly more towards you is like above I read that statement as they made the last 2 acts harder, and NOT the first 2 easier.
Then why are you pushing your inference and opinion off as fact?
Well they already had it done, they said it was a secret they wanted to let out. So there you go!
Under a flat Inferno difficulty curve, ALL of inferno was going to be one difficulty: balls-hard. That means that Act 1 was the same difficulty as Act 4. It also means that once you beat Hell, you hit a huge wall, forcing you to continue grinding in Hell. Hitting walls in difficulty is just not very much fun when you want to progress from one difficulty to the next. You've already beaten Hell, you want to start making progress on the next level. This change does a better job of transitioning players from Hell into Inferno, while still preserving the balls-hard difficulty for Acts 3 and 4.
A big part of it is also human psychology. Players will sit here and bitch and cry endlessly, "WAHHHHH! We wanted all of Inferno to be the exact same balls-difficult experience start to finish!" Unfortunately, it's another case of players thinking they know what they want but really not. There's gameplay and behavioral reasons for having the difficulty continue to scale upwards even across Inferno, and for making a smoother transition upwards than just simply a flat difficulty curve.
Beyond that, it's endlessly amusing to hear people who likely have no hardmode raid achievements in the slightest try to pretend that because they could get through Cata heroics that they're the pinnacle of gaming, and D3 won't provide a challenge in the slightest XD
I'm preserving user names and posts from this thread so that a few weeks after release, we can all have a good, long laugh as some of these children are forced to eat their words :3