Hey guys, I find myself in quite a bind here.. I'm about 991 life on hit with my barb duel-weild. Skimming on act 3, and just about to where I'm gonna start raising more dmg into the mix with my survial as well. And I really am woundering when will I get more out of Life steal rather than Lph (as with the new patch high dmg seems to be a seriously good way to go once you got all that ehp (effective health pool) ya' need).
My debate more so is on two weapons right now:
First being the spear I'm using right now,
(281-532dmg) 487.8 dmg 1.20 base attack speed
43 str
214 vit
391 lph (plus a socket, peaking at 691 with my current gem).
My second in turn:
(486-914dmg) 840.0 dmg 1.20 base attack speed
crit hit dmg increase 51%
2.30% life steal
and finally socket (making 300 lph)
So-- my big debate: 2.30% life steal or 391 lph (disregarding other stats above I suppose more or less, can be discussed later if desired but this is my big question.)? How much dmg would vary that 2.30 better than the 391?
Hey guys, I find myself in quite a bind here.. I'm about 991 life on hit with my barb duel-weild. Skimming on act 3, and just about to where I'm gonna start raising more dmg in to the mix with my survial as well. And I really am woundering when will I get more out of Life steal rather thern Lph (as with the new patch high dmg seems to be a seriously good way to go once you got all that ehp (effective health pool) ya' need.
My debate more so is on two weapons right now:
First being the spear I'm using right now,
(281-532dmg) 487.8 dmg 1.20 base attack speed
43 str
214 vit
391 lph (plus a socket, peaking at 691 with my current gem).
My second in turn:
(486-914dmg) 840.0 dmg 1.20 base attack speed
crit hit dmg increase 51%
2.30% life steal
and finally socket (making 300 lph)
So-- my big debate: 2.30% life steal or 391 lph (disregarding other stats above I suppose more or less, can be discussed later if desired but this is my big question.)? How much dmg would vary that 2.30 better then the 391?
Ultimately it depends on your other gear, but personally I would go with the more damage, and life steal with lower LOH.
Weapons are the biggest thing: for example that later spear I'm using now when in my main set I'm at-- 18 k or so? Two weps that dmg average mid 800's rocks. But don't just buy weps on high dmg. If I had to suggest atm (as with this patch, and note it will get nerfed here soon enough) crit hit chance and dmg mixed in with your others stats ya' need makes a differnce. I'm a die hard attack speed stacker personally for my classic frenzy d2 build I try to stick by (I just love hitting fast). Really just about balancing between gear or spells how much tougher you are, or how much more pain ya' cause. Hell I hit hard but getting my ass wiped by Ghom (but that's the beauty of farming that will follow). But that's my two cents.
I have 6 % life steal, which brings me to a total of 1.2 % true, after the diminishing returns.
I also have 48 % CH chance and 300 % ch damage.
Keeping that in mind I hit 50-100 k damage on regular hits with normal attacks. 100-200 k with revenge and another 100 k with overpower.
I have 0 life on hit.
Long story short, with the right stats Life Steal > Life on Hit, simple as that..
Which amounts to a whole 2400 IF you crit. You could easily get more health if you decided to go with Life on Hit items. As of now, Life on Hit is better and will be for quite some time.
Let's assume 600 life on hit and average frenzy hits of 25k (including crits of course) and see how much life steal you'd need to heal for equal the amount per hit using just Frenzy.
Life steal is reduced to 20% of its amount in Inferno.
Life on hit is reduced to about 80% of its amount while using Frenzy. Basically, the more targets an ability hits, the less healing from LoH it produces.
Using the 600 LoH you'd get 600 * 0.8 = 480 HP each hit.
Using life steal you would need:
25000 * x * 0.2 = 480
5000 * x = 480
x = 0.096 == 9.6 % life steal (needed to heal for 480 HP each hit)
9.6% seems much compared to the 600 you could get with just 1 socket on a weapon.
Source:
I must say I'm impressed, ty I'll be going back to my old spear. (Though I am debating it with another peice now with that as the case, but I can do the leg work on that one.) Thank you again guys for the input.
There's a lot of misinformation and bad math in this thread. I don't think I've seen a single post take into account that LoH is based on attack speed and life steal is based on "real dps" (not how much a white attack hits or crits for, that's irrelevant).
I was having a discussion about this in the monk forums a few days ago. Assuming you use Fists of Thunder with the Thunderclap rune, and got an attack speed of ~2 (meaning you're most likely dual wielding), you need about 500k dps with 6% lifesteal to get similar life per second as if you had 2k LoH. By 500k dps I mean the real number, not what your character sheet or anything else say. Meaning it'd take you 8 seconds to kill a 4 mil boss/elite. 500k dps is obviously not something you're likely to ever reach (outside of long cooldowns perhaps).
I don't really know how this translates to barbarians though.
Even with that 'low' DPS, Life steal is still getting even with a decent amout of LoH.
So either my maths are really flawed and I think of it with the wrong angle, either (like Blizzard always said) Life steal is getting in the way of LoH once you have a decent DPS.
I'm not quite sure what you've done there, but at the very least I think you haven't taken the 80% penalty into account (and if you've missed that, chances are you've missed other factors as well).
2.5% lifesteal in Inferno is actually 0.5% lifesteal.
A rare with large health pool has maybe 2 million health. That means over the course of killing a rare with 2 million health, you recovery about 10,000 health regardless of your DPS. I don't think lifesteal will ever become viable because of that.
If you ever get enough DPS to make it worthwhile, monsters will die so fast that it's unnecessary and you'll heal yourself with health globes faster.
Even with that 'low' DPS, Life steal is still getting even with a decent amout of LoH.
So either my maths are really flawed and I think of it with the wrong angle, either (like Blizzard always said) Life steal is getting in the way of LoH once you have a decent DPS.
I'm not quite sure what you've done there, but at the very least I think you haven't taken the 80% penalty into account (and if you've missed that, chances are you've missed other factors as well).
Actually I did but did x0.8 instead of x0.2 on the penalty my bad.
Number is 230 life per sec for lifesteal, lot less appealing now ...
The dps you used in your calculations is way too low for life steal to be a good option. Need to be in the 100k's
There's a lot of misinformation and bad math in this thread. I don't think I've seen a single post take into account that LoH is based on attack speed and life steal is based on "real dps" (not how much a white attack hits or crits for, that's irrelevant).
It depends on what you're trying to calculate. Also, it's hard to figure out your DPS since that depends on which skills you use and on how many mobs you are fighting for how long.
True, it's very tricky dealing with the real dps, but that's simply what you have to do when talking about life steal. That's all that matters, not attack speed, not what your white hits do or how often you crit. What I do on my monk is to watch the health bar closely when fighting single elites (usually after having killed off the minions) and simply estimate how much dps I'm doing. Of course that's just against single target, in aoe situations it's pretty much impossible to tell.
One thing so far: people talking about 1k+ LOH, but noone seems to talk about higher life steal values. Please do remember you can get dual wield barb with 2x3% leech weapons + 3% talent + 3% belt which totals up to 12% life leech. Even with 80% nerf, given 50+k DPS that will outheal any LoH you can get.
Another point to remember is that life leech works with every bit of damage you do, be it AoE, etc. Think about hitting 10 mobs with a 120k crit with a shockwave while having 12% life leech... there's no LoH in the game that can come even close to that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
One thing so far: people talking about 1k+ LOH, but noone seems to talk about higher life steal values.Please do remember you can get dual wield barb with 2x3% leech weapons + 3% talent + 3% belt which totals up to 12% life leech. Even with 80% nerf, given 50+k DPS that will outheal any LoH you can get.
No it won't. 1k LoH isn't high, which is why it's not compared to the absolute max life steal values.
Another point to remember is that life leech works with every bit of damage you do, be it AoE, etc. Think about hitting 10 mobs with a 120k crit with a shockwave while having 12% life leech... there's no LoH in the game that can come even close to that.
LoH works on AoE as well. And as I've said before, it's completely useless talking about how much you crit for.
One thing so far: people talking about 1k+ LOH, but noone seems to talk about higher life steal values.Please do remember you can get dual wield barb with 2x3% leech weapons + 3% talent + 3% belt which totals up to 12% life leech. Even with 80% nerf, given 50+k DPS that will outheal any LoH you can get.
No it won't. 1k LoH isn't high, which is why it's not compared to the absolute max life steal values.
Another point to remember is that life leech works with every bit of damage you do, be it AoE, etc. Think about hitting 10 mobs with a 120k crit with a shockwave while having 12% life leech... there's no LoH in the game that can come even close to that.
LoH works on AoE as well.
LoH is massively nerfed on any aoe, the values of it become ridiculous when you try to compare to life leech. Massive amounts of LoH is just a bandwagon that everyone's following, yes it works on low end dps, yes having 10-20k dps works, no questions. That however leads to stupendous prices for any LoH gear, which is just not a necessity simply because life leech is not a mile behind. That was the whole design idea behind the nerf of life leech to make it closely balanced vs LoH and the LoH nerfs for various skills which make it less effective.
I am using a completely different self-healing approach: rolling with <150 LoH, no LL at all either, i get all my heals from WW crits. Rolling with max crit +/-1% on every item that can have it + shield with 10% crit and 8% additional WW crit i'm sitting at 70+% crit chance for WW with axe/mace mastery giving another 10%. This works out fantastically because it scales with attack speed - the WW animation is reversely relative to attack speed. base 1.0 attack speed = 1 second duration of the WW, higher attack speed = faster animation of WW. The amount of hits WW will do remains at 3, hence you can drastically increase the amount of heals you get from WW by increasing your attack speed.
The difference is - i don't need to spend 100 mil to buy a good high end DPS weapon because it just absolutely has to have LoH. There are just too many people on the bandwagon of LoH and everyone keeps talking about LoH and LoH alone. I am not here to say that LoH is absolutely completely worse off in any situation or that LL is far superior, i am trying to say that there are other means to do self-healing in this game as a barbarian and have an easy time surviving the end game farming content.
The ultimate scenario would really be a "balance" or a combination of various self-healing methods, get LoH + LL + WW crit heals, run into the fray and spin until they are all dead.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
No one addresses the reality that everyone deals with. The question is simple. With loh costing so much on weapons will leach be enough to keep me alive. In the hardest parts of the game, the champ packs, lower life on hit, supreme dps and 5-6 leach is enough. And it is much more cost effective and works on more skills. Loh is easier. But leach combined with loh and high dps is enough. And cheaper on weapons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My debate more so is on two weapons right now:
First being the spear I'm using right now,
(281-532dmg) 487.8 dmg 1.20 base attack speed
43 str
214 vit
391 lph (plus a socket, peaking at 691 with my current gem).
My second in turn:
(486-914dmg) 840.0 dmg 1.20 base attack speed
crit hit dmg increase 51%
2.30% life steal
and finally socket (making 300 lph)
So-- my big debate: 2.30% life steal or 391 lph (disregarding other stats above I suppose more or less, can be discussed later if desired but this is my big question.)? How much dmg would vary that 2.30 better than the 391?
Ultimately it depends on your other gear, but personally I would go with the more damage, and life steal with lower LOH.
Don't forget life steal is nerfed (by how much??? idk) in inferno. But 17k damage seems really low even for a barb.
Good hunting and all that.
Which amounts to a whole 2400 IF you crit. You could easily get more health if you decided to go with Life on Hit items. As of now, Life on Hit is better and will be for quite some time.
I was having a discussion about this in the monk forums a few days ago. Assuming you use Fists of Thunder with the Thunderclap rune, and got an attack speed of ~2 (meaning you're most likely dual wielding), you need about 500k dps with 6% lifesteal to get similar life per second as if you had 2k LoH. By 500k dps I mean the real number, not what your character sheet or anything else say. Meaning it'd take you 8 seconds to kill a 4 mil boss/elite. 500k dps is obviously not something you're likely to ever reach (outside of long cooldowns perhaps).
I don't really know how this translates to barbarians though.
2.5% lifesteal in Inferno is actually 0.5% lifesteal.
A rare with large health pool has maybe 2 million health. That means over the course of killing a rare with 2 million health, you recovery about 10,000 health regardless of your DPS. I don't think lifesteal will ever become viable because of that.
If you ever get enough DPS to make it worthwhile, monsters will die so fast that it's unnecessary and you'll heal yourself with health globes faster.
The dps you used in your calculations is way too low for life steal to be a good option. Need to be in the 100k's
Another point to remember is that life leech works with every bit of damage you do, be it AoE, etc. Think about hitting 10 mobs with a 120k crit with a shockwave while having 12% life leech... there's no LoH in the game that can come even close to that.
LoH works on AoE as well. And as I've said before, it's completely useless talking about how much you crit for.
LoH is massively nerfed on any aoe, the values of it become ridiculous when you try to compare to life leech. Massive amounts of LoH is just a bandwagon that everyone's following, yes it works on low end dps, yes having 10-20k dps works, no questions. That however leads to stupendous prices for any LoH gear, which is just not a necessity simply because life leech is not a mile behind. That was the whole design idea behind the nerf of life leech to make it closely balanced vs LoH and the LoH nerfs for various skills which make it less effective.
I am using a completely different self-healing approach: rolling with <150 LoH, no LL at all either, i get all my heals from WW crits. Rolling with max crit +/-1% on every item that can have it + shield with 10% crit and 8% additional WW crit i'm sitting at 70+% crit chance for WW with axe/mace mastery giving another 10%. This works out fantastically because it scales with attack speed - the WW animation is reversely relative to attack speed. base 1.0 attack speed = 1 second duration of the WW, higher attack speed = faster animation of WW. The amount of hits WW will do remains at 3, hence you can drastically increase the amount of heals you get from WW by increasing your attack speed.
The difference is - i don't need to spend 100 mil to buy a good high end DPS weapon because it just absolutely has to have LoH. There are just too many people on the bandwagon of LoH and everyone keeps talking about LoH and LoH alone. I am not here to say that LoH is absolutely completely worse off in any situation or that LL is far superior, i am trying to say that there are other means to do self-healing in this game as a barbarian and have an easy time surviving the end game farming content.
The ultimate scenario would really be a "balance" or a combination of various self-healing methods, get LoH + LL + WW crit heals, run into the fray and spin until they are all dead.
Is there some skill that does 80-100% LoH in AoE situation? I wasn't aware of one