Another interesting fact is that if you want to play barb tank to its full strength blizzard will have to fix their servers. Imagine barb tank in canals map dragging the whole map into wds fear & piranhas and summoning rift boss in less than 5 minutes. That is simply not possible right now because right as you drop the mobs into lightning dhs your server will lag so much that your party will be dead as soon as the lag starts.
I don't think servers lag, it would be client machine, I have one weaker and one brand new beast, on weaker crowded parties lag, but on new beast all work fine ?
Another interesting fact is that if you want to play barb tank to its full strength blizzard will have to fix their servers. Imagine barb tank in canals map dragging the whole map into wds fear & piranhas and summoning rift boss in less than 5 minutes. That is simply not possible right now because right as you drop the mobs into lightning dhs your server will lag so much that your party will be dead as soon as the lag starts.
I don't think servers lag, it would be client machine, I have one weaker and one brand new beast, on weaker crowded parties lag, but on new beast all work fine ?
Pretty sure its server lag. All 4 players have same lag + i play with a lot of people and they always have lag + in the morning it doesnt lag because less players play diablo worldwide.
God, I today before seeing this thread I was blinded by lut socks dropping and I salvaged a skull of resonance thinking it was rubbish...just my luck.
A couple questions after re-reading this. You're using a 1h weapon and a Storm Shield in the actual grift? Can you tell us what you prefer?
Also are you using the gem of toxin with a 1h weapon?
I understand that they've limited the ability to heal from fury spent benefit from blood thirst. However - knowing that this wasn't optimal - I was continuing to rely on it to heal. Are you able to heal effectively with this new build, or is it all about mitigation till death?
Watch the movie, basically you have 100% uptime on ignore pain with 5000 life per fury, you dont need any other healing. When you use rend and sprint you will use 40 fury = 40x5000 = 200000 life per second. In the movie my health often jumps from 10%-100%, must be fun watching your tank hp as dps :)). It is good to watch your fury and have full fury bar for healing if you see any hard elites, the biggest problems are fire chains and frozen - insane dmg.
Not in time but from my experience it should be cake as soon as they fix the server lag, much better than crus or monk. And when they fix the lag it will be IMHO such a difference that crus and monk loose jobs ;].
The only advantage this has over zdps crusader with steed charge - draw and quarter + Swiftmount, is that you can pull an unlimited ammount of mobs. Now, i'm not saying that is not a huge advantage but i don't know if it outweighs the fact that the crusader also provides your dps dealers with insane buffs. From what i've seen in your videos, sometimes the time it takes you to round up a group of mobs and pull them back is almost the same time it takes me to go back and forth like 2-5 times, pulling up to 5 mobs at a time.
So what do you think, is it worth it giving up on:
1. Shield glare - divine verdict (20% more dmg (multiplicative but still a nice boost) + blind everything, helps a lot to keep ranged mobs blinding inbetween pulls and also helps a lot in RG fights like crusader king for an example, you can cancel 100% of his teleports...).
2. Judgement - resolved (20% more crit chance on mobs inside the aoe circle that you can basically cast anywhere i.e you don't have to stand next to something to apply this debuff).
3. Law of valor - critical (15% ias + 100% chd to everyone, helps DH get the breakpoint easier, possibly gearing for better items like SA bracers instead of steady /lacuni, etc - and 100% chd is just awesome)
4. Steed charge - draw and quarter (reliable pulls from up to 3 screens away when using swiftmount + allows you to scout the whole rift in a very short time if you want to look for a conduit for an example. The uptime on the horse is 100%...)
---
The only group buff i see you providing is warcry (impunity?). The main advantage as i said is your ability to pull unlimited ammounts of mobs which sadly creates a shit ton of lag... Let me know why you think that crusaders will "lose their job".
If you reduce the barb to a pure tanking toon, the crusader (especially with Steed Charge) will always be superior in my opinion - especially since it offers all those nice group buffs as mentioned by Jamoose.
Barb group buffs / monster debuffs while tanking :
10% additional dmg for whole group from rend
35% extra dmg from charmed mobs (this counts on the mobs even if you leave the group and it lasts until they die with inspiring presence)
charmed elites affixes do great dmg against their friends, molten melts other elites
charmed mobs tank each other
20% reduced dmg on mobs that you shout at
all mobs you shout at are taunted = no ranged or meelee mob dmg for any of your group
sprint for when the rift density is bad
barb freeze from charge is the longest best controlled cc on boss = high bane of the trapped proc on rift guardian
you can tank rift guardian on place without moving because you have extreme healing ability
you dont need any resist neck taktics_andrew, you have extreme thoughness with barb
+ i have crusader tank (with similar gear as my barb) and i run same lvl grifts with him, i can never have so many succesful grifts with crusader because of rift density problems (i dont play much, so this is very important for me to have succesful rifts), also it is so fucking boring, if you play barb on high gr you will never want to play crusader
if you meet bad density with barb you just drag all the mobs while spamming sprint for your party and you go to another floor
with barb tank you make great aoe situations so you are not limited to demon hunters, you can use mage no problem
saying barb tank is a "-" for your group is just you admitting you cant make it work
Is it so with the skull ? Have you tested it recently, i can see very high dps difference when i take the neck on. Anyway the charmed status makes up for the dmg boosts that barb doesnt have, elites just kill each other easily.
Yes you are right, i think barb needs some cheat death passive. The relentless passive is useless and not fun at all, rolling in the rift with red screen glowing because your hp is low and you cannot get it up with life per fury.
The worst problem for barb is the lag. You can pretty much see the lag progress from morning. In the morning you can pull whole rift with charge, little later midday you can aoe small packs and at nights its just unplayable with 10 mobs doing 1 sec server lags.
The 10% Rend buff is true, yep, agree. Also, I can see the advantage on the rift guardian.
Not sure what you mean by 35% extra damage buff on charmed mobs? In your guide I don't see you wearing OWD or Asheara's for followers with OWD. Besides, I've never found proof for it (quite difficult to test) but I've heard that other charm effects do not yield the 35% OWD damage buff - only the OWD charm itself. I'll test that - but anyways, what I'm looking for are unique damage buffs that other classes can't use. Other support chars can use OWD, so that's nothing unique to this build (unlike Rend, which truly is).
Reduced damage from the mobs is, unfortunately, relatively useless, as 20% reduced damage won't make much of a difference on this level - DPS are still a one-hit. And for WD it's not necessary (I've run with Bad Medicine long enough and it's just not worth it). The taunt shout however looks like a nice addition to occupy those annoying ranged mobs until you pulled them in.
The sprint effect is great, on that I agree - although your highest rift will always be one with great density and no walking, so it's more a quality of life feature to finish those other rifts that are not your record rifts. But still, that's a nice feature.
Anyways, I can see its utility is "different", maybe even better. I'll certainly give it a try if a barb is up for it - any change of pace is good. Just from watching the video I saw many pulls where you split up groups (jump - one elite stays behind, jump - go back and pick elite mob, jump - an so on) which, on bad affixes, could immediately wipe the group. Just comparing the gameplay in your video and see a crusader in my party pull in mobs with his horse I felt that the crusader provided a more secure and reliable pull, that's all. But we'll give it a try, if I can find a barb willing to invest the time (of course it needs practice and won't work better in rift #1).
However, the damage loss is really huge and all the additional utility cannot make up for that in my opinion, which is reflected by the fact that (to my knowledge) the highest rift with this group composition is 48 whereas crusader/DPS barb have cleared 52 (and "but we have lag" is not an argument, as any groups would go higher without lag, especially the DPS barbs). The only "unique" damage buff you're adding is 10% Rend, which is far far less than 20% from Shield Glare, 20% from Judgment, 100% CHD from Critical and 15% IAS from the law (for example).
Nevertheless - will give it a try. Always up for new stuff.
World first still with conduit I watched the whole video from Bagstone and didn't even think about that till the journey began from the barb to run and find the conduit in the 5 minutes left ( I know I'm qqing about conduits...but every rank that involves that have zero relevance for most of us).
Sigh. They had 5 minutes left. They might have made it without Conduit, and 90% of the Rift Guardians would have been an easy kill without Conduit. It's just that the barb can't do anything in this setup, so Pylon scouting is his job. No one likes Conduit, but they're part of the game.
Best is to give it a try. When i compare my crusader rifts when i try as hard as i can and pull as many mobs as i can and provide the buffs 100% i can still see the difference when i log my barbarian and it goes faster. It might not seem that the aoe is such a huge difference but then think about you going solo with barb and clearing the rift in 5 minutes and summoning the boss right away because you aoe it all down.
Anyway any good ranged dps is able to avoid elite affixes by outranging them, nowadays its hard to find ppl that understand this, maybe in the future more ranged dps will get the skill for this.
The video you posted is simply the best map for barbarian, cannot argue with that and i think with tank barb it would be faster, also they caught boss with very low HP. Simple luck, cant see dps barb be usefull in medium density.
So after driving my crusader for a while and playing on high GR levels (also played some GR with my dps barb 49+) i think i can safely compare the advantages for those 3 specs.
zdps crus : it took me some time to learn to use the horse properly, but as soon as you learn this you are great support for the group
+ large dps buffs
+ aoe blind and root on monsters
+ some boss dont move at all when you cc them
+ scouting ahead few screens
+ moving 5 mobs with horse (usefull if you meet 2 elite packs)
+ you can easily proc 30% dmg from bracers (stand on place and use horse)
- when youre scouting or moving away from group, your group has no dps buffs
- some ranged dps and casters can oneshot you
- when there are many mobs moving from all sides you will have problems
zdps barb : again this takes much practice till you learn how to charge properly without leaving any mobs behind
+ taunt - basically you can just run and keep spamming the shout and none of your dps can ever die
+ mob grouping - you can make any density level work because you can pull whole map and make huge aoe situations
+ 10% rend dmg
+ sprint - might not seem like important but this helps party a lot
+ charming mobs - charmed elites do huge dmg and charmed elites dont use many affixes (fire chain, thunderstorm etc) + easy no risk scouting while gathering mobs + you can ress anybody at any time because in ignore pain you are immune to the attacks breaking the ressurection bar, you have high thoughness, when your party dies you can always ress them + very easy scouting and pylon hunting
- less dps buffs than other tanks - boss can move when your freeze is on diminishing - huge lags when you aoe whole map (usually you kill all trash in the lag but the elites kill your whole party while youre in lag)
dps barb : this doesnt take much skill, your only concern is ranged mob that will kill you when you dont see them
+ huge aoe dps (i mean huge), when you meet canals you can clear whole lvl alone + good scouting options, easy pylon hunting + moving mobs (you cannot let elites cast affixes or you die, so this means shorter charges) + feeling like on t6 on GR50
- you need good rift with good density always - very low survivability and thoughness - almost useless on some rift guardians - no dps buff
No it doesn't require 100x more tries that's just an exaggerated number you made up.
Show me groups clearing high gr with this build?
Where are your high gr clears? I believe you said your highest was 49? How is that comparable on a wide scale to other setups which use dps barb / zdps crus?
you are trying so hard to make it seem like this is the best build ever when in practice, there are no results that can back those claims up.
This build is just inferior in every single way. Again, the main issue being that even if you pull 100 mobs to the sentries, it will lag your game out and you will lose like 5 minutes in one lag spike. It just doesn't work.
The only thing i'm interested in is testing how high cdr FC locks down RG's. Yesterday while playing on T6 i noticed that with empowered shrine i get to ~67 cdr and that i could pretty much lockdown most of the RG's attacks - kind of like that crusader shield glare. I don't know if RG's on GR have higher diminishing retrusn / resistance to stuns but i think not. Gonna test that soon enough.
What I am not saying this is best build ever, i am just saying it works and is comparable with other builds. I myself play crus 90% of time now. Saying this build is inferior is bullshit, have you even tried ?
Barb is rly bad on rift guardians (as dps and support, doesnt matter), freeze has diminishing return and after few charges you dont lock boss at all. Crusader can keep blinding forever even if its just for 0,5 sec.
I dont have 20 nolife hours a day to play. I hate trials, i would rather upgrade key 8x to get to 51 key than to be 10 minutes in trials. Also i dont aim for the highest gr ever, I aim for fun and this build is the most hillarious build ever.
How is saying that this build is inferior to zdps crus is bullshit when you yourself admit to playing crus 90% of the time?
A good raekor barb can clear more than 50% of the GR(50) on his own while the WD+2DH clear the other half or so... This setup has higher potential for having ~5 minutes for the RG. With the WD+Crus+2DH setup you will often find yourself reaching the RG with ~2 minutes which is almost never enough on 50+...
The only thing hillarious about this build is the amount of lag you will get
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God, I today before seeing this thread I was blinded by lut socks dropping and I salvaged a skull of resonance thinking it was rubbish...just my luck.
A couple questions after re-reading this. You're using a 1h weapon and a Storm Shield in the actual grift? Can you tell us what you prefer?
Also are you using the gem of toxin with a 1h weapon?
I understand that they've limited the ability to heal from fury spent benefit from blood thirst. However - knowing that this wasn't optimal - I was continuing to rely on it to heal. Are you able to heal effectively with this new build, or is it all about mitigation till death?
So what do you think, is it worth it giving up on:
1. Shield glare - divine verdict (20% more dmg (multiplicative but still a nice boost) + blind everything, helps a lot to keep ranged mobs blinding inbetween pulls and also helps a lot in RG fights like crusader king for an example, you can cancel 100% of his teleports...).
2. Judgement - resolved (20% more crit chance on mobs inside the aoe circle that you can basically cast anywhere i.e you don't have to stand next to something to apply this debuff).
3. Law of valor - critical (15% ias + 100% chd to everyone, helps DH get the breakpoint easier, possibly gearing for better items like SA bracers instead of steady /lacuni, etc - and 100% chd is just awesome)
4. Steed charge - draw and quarter (reliable pulls from up to 3 screens away when using swiftmount + allows you to scout the whole rift in a very short time if you want to look for a conduit for an example. The uptime on the horse is 100%...)
---
The only group buff i see you providing is warcry (impunity?). The main advantage as i said is your ability to pull unlimited ammounts of mobs which sadly creates a shit ton of lag... Let me know why you think that crusaders will "lose their job".
This is true for hardcore, but couldn't be further away from the truth for softcore. In fact, many 52+ clears on SC have a barb in group: http://www.diabloprogress.com/rating.stat_grift_4p_s0
However, they're not playing a zDPS barb but full damage Raekor, running ahead and clearing stuff. There's a video of a barb doing this in 3p to clear 51: http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/2kg3qg/rank_1_eu_3man_season_grift_51_barb_wd_dh/
If you reduce the barb to a pure tanking toon, the crusader (especially with Steed Charge) will always be superior in my opinion - especially since it offers all those nice group buffs as mentioned by Jamoose.
10% additional dmg for whole group from rend
35% extra dmg from charmed mobs (this counts on the mobs even if you leave the group and it lasts until they die with inspiring presence)
charmed elites affixes do great dmg against their friends, molten melts other elites
charmed mobs tank each other
20% reduced dmg on mobs that you shout at
all mobs you shout at are taunted = no ranged or meelee mob dmg for any of your group
sprint for when the rift density is bad
barb freeze from charge is the longest best controlled cc on boss = high bane of the trapped proc on rift guardian
you can tank rift guardian on place without moving because you have extreme healing ability
you dont need any resist neck taktics_andrew, you have extreme thoughness with barb
+ i have crusader tank (with similar gear as my barb) and i run same lvl grifts with him, i can never have so many succesful grifts with crusader because of rift density problems (i dont play much, so this is very important for me to have succesful rifts), also it is so fucking boring, if you play barb on high gr you will never want to play crusader
if you meet bad density with barb you just drag all the mobs while spamming sprint for your party and you go to another floor
with barb tank you make great aoe situations so you are not limited to demon hunters, you can use mage no problem
saying barb tank is a "-" for your group is just you admitting you cant make it work
Yes you are right, i think barb needs some cheat death passive. The relentless passive is useless and not fun at all, rolling in the rift with red screen glowing because your hp is low and you cannot get it up with life per fury.
The worst problem for barb is the lag. You can pretty much see the lag progress from morning. In the morning you can pull whole rift with charge, little later midday you can aoe small packs and at nights its just unplayable with 10 mobs doing 1 sec server lags.
Not sure what you mean by 35% extra damage buff on charmed mobs? In your guide I don't see you wearing OWD or Asheara's for followers with OWD. Besides, I've never found proof for it (quite difficult to test) but I've heard that other charm effects do not yield the 35% OWD damage buff - only the OWD charm itself. I'll test that - but anyways, what I'm looking for are unique damage buffs that other classes can't use. Other support chars can use OWD, so that's nothing unique to this build (unlike Rend, which truly is).
Reduced damage from the mobs is, unfortunately, relatively useless, as 20% reduced damage won't make much of a difference on this level - DPS are still a one-hit. And for WD it's not necessary (I've run with Bad Medicine long enough and it's just not worth it). The taunt shout however looks like a nice addition to occupy those annoying ranged mobs until you pulled them in.
The sprint effect is great, on that I agree - although your highest rift will always be one with great density and no walking, so it's more a quality of life feature to finish those other rifts that are not your record rifts. But still, that's a nice feature.
Anyways, I can see its utility is "different", maybe even better. I'll certainly give it a try if a barb is up for it - any change of pace is good. Just from watching the video I saw many pulls where you split up groups (jump - one elite stays behind, jump - go back and pick elite mob, jump - an so on) which, on bad affixes, could immediately wipe the group. Just comparing the gameplay in your video and see a crusader in my party pull in mobs with his horse I felt that the crusader provided a more secure and reliable pull, that's all. But we'll give it a try, if I can find a barb willing to invest the time (of course it needs practice and won't work better in rift #1).
However, the damage loss is really huge and all the additional utility cannot make up for that in my opinion, which is reflected by the fact that (to my knowledge) the highest rift with this group composition is 48 whereas crusader/DPS barb have cleared 52 (and "but we have lag" is not an argument, as any groups would go higher without lag, especially the DPS barbs). The only "unique" damage buff you're adding is 10% Rend, which is far far less than 20% from Shield Glare, 20% from Judgment, 100% CHD from Critical and 15% IAS from the law (for example).
Nevertheless - will give it a try. Always up for new stuff.
Sigh. They had 5 minutes left. They might have made it without Conduit, and 90% of the Rift Guardians would have been an easy kill without Conduit. It's just that the barb can't do anything in this setup, so Pylon scouting is his job. No one likes Conduit, but they're part of the game.
Anyways, here's a 4p GR52 clear with a DPS barb, no Conduit: http://www.twitch.tv/gabynator/c/5407715
A good barb clears any rift in no time, the DHs are basically just there to "clear the leftovers" and kill the RG.
Anyway any good ranged dps is able to avoid elite affixes by outranging them, nowadays its hard to find ppl that understand this, maybe in the future more ranged dps will get the skill for this.
The video you posted is simply the best map for barbarian, cannot argue with that and i think with tank barb it would be faster, also they caught boss with very low HP. Simple luck, cant see dps barb be usefull in medium density.
zdps crus : it took me some time to learn to use the horse properly, but as soon as you learn this you are great support for the group
+ large dps buffs
+ aoe blind and root on monsters
+ some boss dont move at all when you cc them
+ scouting ahead few screens
+ moving 5 mobs with horse (usefull if you meet 2 elite packs)
+ you can easily proc 30% dmg from bracers (stand on place and use horse)
- when youre scouting or moving away from group, your group has no dps buffs
- some ranged dps and casters can oneshot you
- when there are many mobs moving from all sides you will have problems
zdps barb : again this takes much practice till you learn how to charge properly without leaving any mobs behind
+ taunt - basically you can just run and keep spamming the shout and none of your dps can ever die
+ mob grouping - you can make any density level work because you can pull whole map and make huge aoe situations
+ 10% rend dmg
+ sprint - might not seem like important but this helps party a lot
+ charming mobs - charmed elites do huge dmg and charmed elites dont use many affixes (fire chain, thunderstorm etc)
+ easy no risk scouting while gathering mobs
+ you can ress anybody at any time because in ignore pain you are immune to the attacks breaking the ressurection bar, you have high thoughness, when your party dies you can always ress them
+ very easy scouting and pylon hunting
- less dps buffs than other tanks
- boss can move when your freeze is on diminishing
- huge lags when you aoe whole map (usually you kill all trash in the lag but the elites kill your whole party while youre in lag)
dps barb : this doesnt take much skill, your only concern is ranged mob that will kill you when you dont see them
+ huge aoe dps (i mean huge), when you meet canals you can clear whole lvl alone
+ good scouting options, easy pylon hunting
+ moving mobs (you cannot let elites cast affixes or you die, so this means shorter charges)
+ feeling like on t6 on GR50
- you need good rift with good density always
- very low survivability and thoughness
- almost useless on some rift guardians
- no dps buff
Show me groups clearing high gr with this build?
Where are your high gr clears? I believe you said your highest was 49? How is that comparable on a wide scale to other setups which use dps barb / zdps crus?
you are trying so hard to make it seem like this is the best build ever when in practice, there are no results that can back those claims up.
This build is just inferior in every single way. Again, the main issue being that even if you pull 100 mobs to the sentries, it will lag your game out and you will lose like 5 minutes in one lag spike. It just doesn't work.
The only thing i'm interested in is testing how high cdr FC locks down RG's. Yesterday while playing on T6 i noticed that with empowered shrine i get to ~67 cdr and that i could pretty much lockdown most of the RG's attacks - kind of like that crusader shield glare. I don't know if RG's on GR have higher diminishing retrusn / resistance to stuns but i think not. Gonna test that soon enough.
Barb is rly bad on rift guardians (as dps and support, doesnt matter), freeze has diminishing return and after few charges you dont lock boss at all. Crusader can keep blinding forever even if its just for 0,5 sec.
I dont have 20 nolife hours a day to play. I hate trials, i would rather upgrade key 8x to get to 51 key than to be 10 minutes in trials. Also i dont aim for the highest gr ever, I aim for fun and this build is the most hillarious build ever.
A good raekor barb can clear more than 50% of the GR(50) on his own while the WD+2DH clear the other half or so... This setup has higher potential for having ~5 minutes for the RG. With the WD+Crus+2DH setup you will often find yourself reaching the RG with ~2 minutes which is almost never enough on 50+...
The only thing hillarious about this build is the amount of lag you will get