Because bad luck can instagib you. Dodging a hit is nice and all but you should never rely on it. You need to actually be able to take hits... or do so much damage you never get hit in the first place.
It's good for a class like the Demon Hunter who will on occasion take a hit. With dodge, the demon hunter can avoid damage altogether. Which is good if you get hit only sometimes.
On the other hand classes like barbs or monks which get hit constantly need a more consistent form of damage mitigation. Monks dodge but they also have a 30% inherent damage reduction and of course OWE.
So in essence what I'm trying to say is that dodge is great if you only take an occasional hit and yes pretty terrible if your constantly getting hit and have no other way of damage mitigation.
Its because it isn't consistent. Sure, Dodge provides the same amount of "average damage reduction" as do other stats. However, the time in which it provides that damage reduction can vary greatly. For instance, you can dodge hundreds of small tiny hits from small mobs, but then fail to dodge 2 hits from a heavy hitting mob.
In addition, it isn't as effective at reducing damage from AoE sources compared to armor/resist all. If you have 30% dodge chance, but you only take 2 hits from an AoE source, you will, more then likely, take both hits. On the other hand, if you have 30% damage reduction from armor/resist all, you take 30% less damage from both those hits, so you survive longer.
You can dodge every single individual elemental damage tick. There is NO "undodgeable" damage in the game. The game makes a roll to decide whether you take a hit to the face or dodge it, and then calculates damage after that.
I tested dodge against Ghom's AoE today, and it did nothing. I used my Paragon points on a new character to go from 4.5% dodge to about 75%, and the damage was still ticking at the same rate. I then used some points to get my all resistance to around 75%, and the rate at which I was taking damage decreased to about 1/4. Maybe dodge just doesn't work against Ghom's AoE, but that would raise the question what AoE does dodge work against, if any?
Sadly, this makes Wizards better tanks than Monks against AoE, even when taking the Monk's innate 30% damage reduction into account.
Every fully leg'd out DH has at least 55% dodge in addition to being ranged and having supreme mobility of the gods. If you're not asleep, any hits you do take usually miss
Every fully leg'd out DH has at least 55% dodge in addition to being ranged and having supreme mobility of the gods. If you're not asleep, any hits you do take usually miss
Wrong, Fully Legendary DH here, 7196 dex and only 33.2% dodge.
As for the topic dodge is absolutely garbage because more than half the damage in the game cannot be dodged. You can't dodge molten, plagued, poison enchanted, desecration, poison clouds (ie ghom), soul siphon (ghosts). I don't think you can dodge lightning storm either. I don't think you can dodge any sort of charge abilities, knockbacks, stuns, etc, So many things that you cannot dodge, it really is a useless stat and the main reason why demon hunters can have tons of toughness and still be incredibly squishy.
Dodge is good as a monk, as anyone else probably not. You aren't supposed to sit in molten / plagued / poison enchanted / desecration / poison clouds.
FYI you can dodge the molten explosion, soul siphon from ghosts (so long as you dodge the first hit), knockbacks (so long as you dodge the hit that does the knockback), and frozen. It might not be useful for demon hunters but I'm sitting at 57% dodge on my monk and as a result I'm pretty damn tanky. While you're not able to block, you get the 15% IAS bonus from dual wielding + another weapon socket for another 130% crit damage; it's a pretty good tradeoff if you can manage to not stand in the lava like a moron. Also they changed the dodge formula; there are no longer diminishing returns as far as I can tell. Each point of dodge gives around .00467% dodge which probably doesn't sound like a lot but considering end-game players are hovering around 8500 dex that's 39.7% dodge without using any passives or buffs. Additionally, you can stack dodge without sacrificing armor or AR since there's actually no stat that gives +dodge that you won't already be stacking.
Every fully leg'd out DH has at least 55% dodge in addition to being ranged and having supreme mobility of the gods. If you're not asleep, any hits you do take usually miss
Wrong, Fully Legendary DH here, 7196 dex and only 33.2% dodge.
As for the topic dodge is absolutely garbage because more than half the damage in the game cannot be dodged. You can't dodge molten, plagued, poison enchanted, desecration, poison clouds (ie ghom), soul siphon (ghosts). I don't think you can dodge lightning storm either. I don't think you can dodge any sort of charge abilities, knockbacks, stuns, etc, So many things that you cannot dodge, it really is a useless stat and the main reason why demon hunters can have tons of toughness and still be incredibly squishy.
I threw together a spreadsheet comparing the classes with what I would consider average gear (5000 Armor, 750 AR, 7500 Main Stat), and calculated their total damage reduction. I estimated Monks and DHs have about 35% dodge with 7500 Dex, and I gave Crusaders a shield with 1900 armor (I ignored the block chance on the shield however):
The important cells are colored red, green, and blue. I arbitrarily chose 2 seconds as the life expectancy with 0 mitigation, and then applied the total mitigation for each class. The top red row shows life expectancy against damage from dodgeable attacks, and the bottom red row shows life expectancy against undodgeable attacks. The green cells are simply rankings for each class, again the top row is for dodgeable attacks, and the bottom row is for undodgeable. Finally, the blue cells show the relative life expectancy of each class compared to the highest.
Against dodgeable attacks, Monks are in third, although they are pretty far behind Barbarians--Barbarians can expect to live about 22% longer than Monks. DH are in last--even Wizards and WDs last about 9% longer than a DH.
When undodgeable attacks come into play, Monks and DH suffer a lot, and drop to 5th and 6th place respectively. In fact, Barbarians live about 88% longer than Monks, and Wizards/WDs live about 18% longer than Monks, and 68% longer than DHs.
It didn't used to be this bad. Dodge used to scale better at 60, where most Monks could run around with about 50% fairly easily. This made Monks great against dodgeable attacks, and okay against everything else. Now Monks are okay against dodgeable attacks, and crap against everything else. DHs have it the worse, and are almost always last in terms of mitigation.
Extras:
1) I didn't include blocking in the above calculations. Because of this, Crusaders are most likely the best tank against attacks that can be blocked, and the second best against attacks that can't be.
2) Before Crusaders received the 15% innate damage reduction they were roughly equal to Monks against dodgeable attacks, and still better against undodgeable attacks. Now they are better against both.
3) If you built a pure DPS character and didn't have any resistance on your gear, Wizards/WDs end up beating out Barbarians. This is unlikely to ever happen though, since even 100 AR from Paragon points cause Barbarians to take the lead.
4) I used the following formulas for Armor and AR mitigation:
Armor_DR = Armor / (Armor + 50 * mlvl)
AR_DR = AR / (AR + 5 * mlvl)
I assume they still apply at 70, and the numbers seemed to match up with my Monk and Wizard from memory.
This spreadsheet is good, but it does not include another aspect (mostly unique to wizards, though) of damage mitigation --- absorb shields. As far as I know, only monks (mantra activation) and wizards (passives, MW/deflection) can summon those. And while monks' mantra-spawned shields are, let's be honest, crap and can't be sustained, wizards' absorb shields with decent base mitigation will allow a "wizzie" to tank on equals with at least no-shield barbarians. Out of personal experience, my wizard has 8000 armor and 1200 all res. The shields from MW/deflection are enough to flat out ignore ground effects and lesser white trash as log as you attack something. Arcane sentry, orbiter spheres, frozen pulse, though, still can hurt quite badly.
But back to the topic of dodge. It used to be a decent defensive mechanic before 2.0 went live... Now, I don't feel that it does anything at all even on monk and demon hunter characters... well, occasionally you see 'dodged' message, but... either RNG hates me, or those % of dodge I managed to gather are ridiculously ineffective.
Every fully leg'd out DH has at least 55% dodge in addition to being ranged and having supreme mobility of the gods. If you're not asleep, any hits you do take usually miss
Wrong, Fully Legendary DH here, 7196 dex and only 33.2% dodge.
As for the topic dodge is absolutely garbage because more than half the damage in the game cannot be dodged. You can't dodge molten, plagued, poison enchanted, desecration, poison clouds (ie ghom), soul siphon (ghosts). I don't think you can dodge lightning storm either. I don't think you can dodge any sort of charge abilities, knockbacks, stuns, etc, So many things that you cannot dodge, it really is a useless stat and the main reason why demon hunters can have tons of toughness and still be incredibly squishy.
Okay, fully leg'd with GOOD legs, lol @ your gear
How do you even know what gear my DH uses? Secondly, that was pretty insulting. Even with Max rolls in Dex in every single slot and max dex gems in chest and legs you could only reach 9367 dex, which would only be 43.2% dodge, which is far from your made up 55%. You would have to be Paragon 2050 with all points in Dex before you had enough Dex to reach 55% dodge.
deepsky - The high dodge is fun, but T3 is still pretty low damage content, so I'd reserve your judgement 'till you try rolling with it on T5 or 6. It's fun there as well, until couple hits in a row connect, and you get to look at your ragdoll corpse bouncing on floor and wait for ress timer. It's great extra, but we should have better mitigation available in addition to dodge. Currently it feels that we're getting shafted because of dodge gets overvalued as a survivability stat, and as a result we can't get proper survival passives besides OWE and STI, which are pretty much mandatory on T3 onwards unless one doesn't mind sitting on their hands waiting for ress timer to finish.
Bottom line. You cannot dodge molten, desecrator, plagued, poison enchanted, arcane sentry, poison cloud, soul siphon, thunderstorm, or orbiter. STR and INT based bonuses (Armor and Resist All respectively) mitigate ALL these effects. Thus, Dodge is the worst damage mitigation bonus because it doesn't mitigate the majority of the damage that you actually take.
Bottom line. You cannot dodge molten, desecrator, plagued, poison enchanted, arcane sentry, poison cloud, soul siphon, thunderstorm, or orbiter. STR and INT based bonuses (Armor and Resist All respectively) mitigate ALL these effects. Thus, Dodge is the worst damage mitigation bonus because it doesn't mitigate the majority of the damage that you actually take.
You're not really meant to just stand in those things without an amulet to make you immune of Blackthornes 4 set though... I'm not saying your wrong about dodge being bad; just the excuse that you can't stand in all the crap is a bit of a weak one to make. Most classes can't actually just stand in loads of crap without paying the price, or compensating elsewhere.
They should just make block and dodge work against all damage types; then monks would be broken
Bottom line. You cannot dodge molten, desecrator, plagued, poison enchanted, arcane sentry, poison cloud, soul siphon, thunderstorm, or orbiter. STR and INT based bonuses (Armor and Resist All respectively) mitigate ALL these effects. Thus, Dodge is the worst damage mitigation bonus because it doesn't mitigate the majority of the damage that you actually take.
You're not really meant to just stand in those things without an amulet to make you immune of Blackthornes 4 set though... I'm not saying your wrong about dodge being bad; just the excuse that you can't stand in all the crap is a bit of a weak one to make.
Horseshit. Thunderstorm is unavoidable damage for the first hit and Plagued in particular is a low-intensity effect that is often stood in. You will also very often get hit by the others whether you want it or not while moving from place to place, due to Vortex/Jailer etc or simply due to the screen being filled to the brim with them. You aren't "meant" to get hit by anything Diablo or Malthael does either, so making your armor and block worthless against them would be fine by you, I assume?
If thunderstorm is one or even 2 shotting you, you're trying too hard. Yes you get hit by these things; of course you do. If they one shot you you're overstepping your bounds
So your problem is with unavoidable damage? You're acting as though Monks have 0 other mitigation.
Hey, you know those succubus mobs? (And others) they debuff for 50% armour redux you know how much that screws over armour based toughness? You go from 85+% mitigation to 60% mitigation. Thats nearly 3x the damage. Omg fix. No. Learn to work around it.
Disregarding if the Succubus are elites with other affixes ofc
Whyso?
On the other hand classes like barbs or monks which get hit constantly need a more consistent form of damage mitigation. Monks dodge but they also have a 30% inherent damage reduction and of course OWE.
So in essence what I'm trying to say is that dodge is great if you only take an occasional hit and yes pretty terrible if your constantly getting hit and have no other way of damage mitigation.
You're a wizard Harry.....
then its completely useless
THAT is why dodge is bad
In addition, it isn't as effective at reducing damage from AoE sources compared to armor/resist all. If you have 30% dodge chance, but you only take 2 hits from an AoE source, you will, more then likely, take both hits. On the other hand, if you have 30% damage reduction from armor/resist all, you take 30% less damage from both those hits, so you survive longer.
Sadly, this makes Wizards better tanks than Monks against AoE, even when taking the Monk's innate 30% damage reduction into account.
As for the topic dodge is absolutely garbage because more than half the damage in the game cannot be dodged. You can't dodge molten, plagued, poison enchanted, desecration, poison clouds (ie ghom), soul siphon (ghosts). I don't think you can dodge lightning storm either. I don't think you can dodge any sort of charge abilities, knockbacks, stuns, etc, So many things that you cannot dodge, it really is a useless stat and the main reason why demon hunters can have tons of toughness and still be incredibly squishy.
FYI you can dodge the molten explosion, soul siphon from ghosts (so long as you dodge the first hit), knockbacks (so long as you dodge the hit that does the knockback), and frozen. It might not be useful for demon hunters but I'm sitting at 57% dodge on my monk and as a result I'm pretty damn tanky. While you're not able to block, you get the 15% IAS bonus from dual wielding + another weapon socket for another 130% crit damage; it's a pretty good tradeoff if you can manage to not stand in the lava like a moron. Also they changed the dodge formula; there are no longer diminishing returns as far as I can tell. Each point of dodge gives around .00467% dodge which probably doesn't sound like a lot but considering end-game players are hovering around 8500 dex that's 39.7% dodge without using any passives or buffs. Additionally, you can stack dodge without sacrificing armor or AR since there's actually no stat that gives +dodge that you won't already be stacking.
The important cells are colored red, green, and blue. I arbitrarily chose 2 seconds as the life expectancy with 0 mitigation, and then applied the total mitigation for each class. The top red row shows life expectancy against damage from dodgeable attacks, and the bottom red row shows life expectancy against undodgeable attacks. The green cells are simply rankings for each class, again the top row is for dodgeable attacks, and the bottom row is for undodgeable. Finally, the blue cells show the relative life expectancy of each class compared to the highest.
Against dodgeable attacks, Monks are in third, although they are pretty far behind Barbarians--Barbarians can expect to live about 22% longer than Monks. DH are in last--even Wizards and WDs last about 9% longer than a DH.
When undodgeable attacks come into play, Monks and DH suffer a lot, and drop to 5th and 6th place respectively. In fact, Barbarians live about 88% longer than Monks, and Wizards/WDs live about 18% longer than Monks, and 68% longer than DHs.
It didn't used to be this bad. Dodge used to scale better at 60, where most Monks could run around with about 50% fairly easily. This made Monks great against dodgeable attacks, and okay against everything else. Now Monks are okay against dodgeable attacks, and crap against everything else. DHs have it the worse, and are almost always last in terms of mitigation.
Extras:
1) I didn't include blocking in the above calculations. Because of this, Crusaders are most likely the best tank against attacks that can be blocked, and the second best against attacks that can't be.
2) Before Crusaders received the 15% innate damage reduction they were roughly equal to Monks against dodgeable attacks, and still better against undodgeable attacks. Now they are better against both.
3) If you built a pure DPS character and didn't have any resistance on your gear, Wizards/WDs end up beating out Barbarians. This is unlikely to ever happen though, since even 100 AR from Paragon points cause Barbarians to take the lead.
4) I used the following formulas for Armor and AR mitigation:
Armor_DR = Armor / (Armor + 50 * mlvl)
AR_DR = AR / (AR + 5 * mlvl)
I assume they still apply at 70, and the numbers seemed to match up with my Monk and Wizard from memory.
But back to the topic of dodge. It used to be a decent defensive mechanic before 2.0 went live... Now, I don't feel that it does anything at all even on monk and demon hunter characters... well, occasionally you see 'dodged' message, but... either RNG hates me, or those % of dodge I managed to gather are ridiculously ineffective.
They should just make block and dodge work against all damage types; then monks would be broken
Hey, you know those succubus mobs? (And others) they debuff for 50% armour redux you know how much that screws over armour based toughness? You go from 85+% mitigation to 60% mitigation. Thats nearly 3x the damage. Omg fix. No. Learn to work around it.
Disregarding if the Succubus are elites with other affixes ofc