Crit Damage piegeonholes just about everyone into using a handful of weapons, and thus makes the others absolute trash by comparison. So I have a solution.
Crit Dmg is a random Affix, so it can roll on most weapons. However, there might not be room or it might be very uncommon for the weapon to roll CD + Socket. These two things are necessary to make an uber weapon.
Thus the solution. A Socket quest for only weapons, and only if they do not already have a socket.
This brings back something cool from D2, could function as another gold sink, and could greatly widen the number of useful weapons out there without creating more or nerfing existing ones.
This would do the opposite of what you want; It would make items that DON'T roll sockets but roll everything else the suber uber ones that everyone wants, because then you get to add a 7th affix and 'cheat' the 6 affix rules. Unless ofc adding a new socket deleted an affix of your choosing.... All too complicated.
The blue post from a couple days ago has the best solution; Add more damage increasing, awesome affixes then there are slots. That way if you roll a main stat + vita + all resis + CC + CD + AS gloves, they might not be the best for you because you would rather have a + % physical damage instead of the CC, or + LoH instead of the vita, ect ect.
That kind-of blog gave me faith that Blizzard isn't only aware of the itemization problem, they already have an awesome way of fixing it.
This would do the opposite of what you want; It would make items that DON'T roll sockets but roll everything else the suber uber ones that everyone wants, because then you get to add a 7th affix and 'cheat' the 6 affix rules. Unless ofc adding a new socket deleted an affix of your choosing.... All too complicated.
The blue post from a couple days ago has the best solution; Add more damage increasing, awesome affixes then there are slots. That way if you roll a main stat + vita + all resis + CC + CD + AS gloves, they might not be the best for you because you would rather have a + % physical damage instead of the CC, or + LoH instead of the vita, ect ect.
That kind-of blog gave me faith that Blizzard isn't only aware of the itemization problem, they already have an awesome way of fixing it.
Nope.
There are only 3 affixes on legendary wpns that are good.
Socket + CD + Main Stat
Many weapons that see absolutely no use can only roll 1 of the above, while others can get all 3. So this at best just slightly levels the playing field and gives some of them a 2nd dps affix. Current BIS already roll all 3, so they have little to nothing to gain, Some may become BIS, but thats fine too. The same weapons being BIS stagnant is boring anyways.
More affixes will help, but does that mean they are changing old legendaries or making new ones? Its also hard to believe that they can make any affix comparable to the OPness of CD. Lots of items already come with things like +% fire dmg, and no one still uses them...
The dullness (if that is even a word) with the current itemization shouldn't be patched like you suggested, but completely fixed, which means, that other affixes can compete with the brainless CC + CD formula.
Here's what should actually be done. Remove critical bonuses on items and put them in your stats, or even better make you gain 0.5% chance of critical hit per paragon lvl or something if you desperatly wants to have critical bonus in the game, and then adjust the monsters hp/damage to scale in a diablo 3 game with no gayness of critical bonuses.
The dullness (if that is even a word) with the current itemization shouldn't be patched like you suggested, but completely fixed, which means, that other affixes can compete with the brainless CC + CD formula.
....that's exactly what the patch is going to do. They are going to make thorns viable, I *think* leave pickup radius alone, and add like probably 3 more damage increasing affixes such as + % school of damage, + damage to skill, and add in some affixes that previously couldn't roll on certain items, such as + LoH on gloves, ect.
So yes, all they have to do is patch it to fix it.
^ completely agree. I should feel like my toon's getting more powerful over time, not just that mobs are asploding with more loot. Having addable affixes to items is a very interesting approach and if you enjoy that kind of thing, then Path of Exile is probably where you should end up. I dislike finding that "if only it had one more thing" item as much as the next guy, but anything you do to make items more powerful or easier to find you're moving the bell curve and making everything cheaper. You can't have easy to find bis items or you ruin the economy and longevity of the game. The blue post about having more affixes that are worthwhile than slots available on an item is interesting, but it doesn't solve the problem. Having 7 good affixes doesn't create tension, it just means that we figure out which one isn't as important and ignore it. It's the same thing we've done already. If you have gloves that are main stat, vit, AR, CD, CC, IAS, then what about monks that want double resist? What about armor? Those are good abilities that we have already determined are less valuable to us than the other six and we've discarded them as affixes we want on gloves.
This would do the opposite of what you want; It would make items that DON'T roll sockets but roll everything else the suber uber ones that everyone wants, because then you get to add a 7th affix and 'cheat' the 6 affix rules. Unless ofc adding a new socket deleted an affix of your choosing.... All too complicated.
The blue post from a couple days ago has the best solution; Add more damage increasing, awesome affixes then there are slots. That way if you roll a main stat + vita + all resis + CC + CD + AS gloves, they might not be the best for you because you would rather have a + % physical damage instead of the CC, or + LoH instead of the vita, ect ect.
That kind-of blog gave me faith that Blizzard isn't only aware of the itemization problem, they already have an awesome way of fixing it.
Nope.
There are only 3 affixes on legendary wpns that are good.
Socket + CD + Main Stat
Many weapons that see absolutely no use can only roll 1 of the above, while others can get all 3. So this at best just slightly levels the playing field and gives some of them a 2nd dps affix. Current BIS already roll all 3, so they have little to nothing to gain, Some may become BIS, but thats fine too. The same weapons being BIS stagnant is boring anyways.
More affixes will help, but does that mean they are changing old legendaries or making new ones? Its also hard to believe that they can make any affix comparable to the OPness of CD. Lots of items already come with things like +% fire dmg, and no one still uses them...
That isn't entirely true. Items that add %elemental damage are often incredibly strong, especially combined with black weapons. This is one of the reasons won kim lau is a really good weapon for monks. +Elemental or +physical numbers could easily be tweaked to compare with crit stats even with current itemization because they are even bigger modifiers than CC and CD on a basic level. If you use fire damage all the time, +%fire damage would always boost your damage while %crit damage will always be conditional on actually landing a crit.
I personally think that crit damage should be nerfed in the same fashion as attack speed was to allow for new stats and old stats to compete. Crit chance would also become a bit more of a niche stat if you weren't always running critical attacks through a 400% multiplier.
Once you get past a certain threshold on dps you're going to find that other stats become more important than CD. If you're not to the point where you are willing to pay millions for the difference between 5.5 CC and 6 on a ring or 9% IAS vs 8% then I don't think you've got the experience/time invested in this game to really make a complaint that only CD is important.
Once you get past a certain threshold on dps you're going to find that other stats become more important than CD. If you're not to the point where you are willing to pay millions for the difference between 5.5 CC and 6 on a ring or 9% IAS vs 8% then I don't think you've got the experience/time invested in this game to really make a complaint that only CD is important.
I think the gear level you are talking about is less of an issue for the game itself than earlier character progression. Without significant help it is pretty hard to get good attack speed/cc/cd items that allow for fast farming or mp progression.
This would do the opposite of what you want; It would make items that DON'T roll sockets but roll everything else the suber uber ones that everyone wants, because then you get to add a 7th affix and 'cheat' the 6 affix rules. Unless ofc adding a new socket deleted an affix of your choosing.... All too complicated.
The blue post from a couple days ago has the best solution; Add more damage increasing, awesome affixes then there are slots. That way if you roll a main stat + vita + all resis + CC + CD + AS gloves, they might not be the best for you because you would rather have a + % physical damage instead of the CC, or + LoH instead of the vita, ect ect.
That kind-of blog gave me faith that Blizzard isn't only aware of the itemization problem, they already have an awesome way of fixing it.
Nope.
There are only 3 affixes on legendary wpns that are good.
Socket + CD + Main Stat
Many weapons that see absolutely no use can only roll 1 of the above, while others can get all 3. So this at best just slightly levels the playing field and gives some of them a 2nd dps affix. Current BIS already roll all 3, so they have little to nothing to gain, Some may become BIS, but thats fine too. The same weapons being BIS stagnant is boring anyways.
More affixes will help, but does that mean they are changing old legendaries or making new ones? Its also hard to believe that they can make any affix comparable to the OPness of CD. Lots of items already come with things like +% fire dmg, and no one still uses them...
That isn't entirely true. Items that add %elemental damage are often incredibly strong, especially combined with black weapons. This is one of the reasons won kim lau is a really good weapon for monks. +Elemental or +physical numbers could easily be tweaked to compare with crit stats even with current itemization because they are even bigger modifiers than CC and CD on a basic level. If you use fire damage all the time, +%fire damage would always boost your damage while %crit damage will always be conditional on actually landing a crit.
I personally think that crit damage should be nerfed in the same fashion as attack speed was to allow for new stats and old stats to compete. Crit chance would also become a bit more of a niche stat if you weren't always running critical attacks through a 400% multiplier.
Probably, but the problem is that the current +% to certain elemental damage is too low to be considered as an option. Instead you can add a +110% CD in a single item. They are not comparable.
Using the same idea, I would love to buff certain skills I use all the time, but the problem is the same, a +8% to Pestilence skill is not comparable to a +100% to CD, or even a +8-10% to CC. The numbers are way off. They should make affixes that could add up to 50%+ to a certain skill damage output.
This would do the opposite of what you want; It would make items that DON'T roll sockets but roll everything else the suber uber ones that everyone wants, because then you get to add a 7th affix and 'cheat' the 6 affix rules. Unless ofc adding a new socket deleted an affix of your choosing.... All too complicated.
The blue post from a couple days ago has the best solution; Add more damage increasing, awesome affixes then there are slots. That way if you roll a main stat + vita + all resis + CC + CD + AS gloves, they might not be the best for you because you would rather have a + % physical damage instead of the CC, or + LoH instead of the vita, ect ect.
That kind-of blog gave me faith that Blizzard isn't only aware of the itemization problem, they already have an awesome way of fixing it.
Nope.
There are only 3 affixes on legendary wpns that are good.
Socket + CD + Main Stat
Many weapons that see absolutely no use can only roll 1 of the above, while others can get all 3. So this at best just slightly levels the playing field and gives some of them a 2nd dps affix. Current BIS already roll all 3, so they have little to nothing to gain, Some may become BIS, but thats fine too. The same weapons being BIS stagnant is boring anyways.
More affixes will help, but does that mean they are changing old legendaries or making new ones? Its also hard to believe that they can make any affix comparable to the OPness of CD. Lots of items already come with things like +% fire dmg, and no one still uses them...
That isn't entirely true. Items that add %elemental damage are often incredibly strong, especially combined with black weapons. This is one of the reasons won kim lau is a really good weapon for monks. +Elemental or +physical numbers could easily be tweaked to compare with crit stats even with current itemization because they are even bigger modifiers than CC and CD on a basic level. If you use fire damage all the time, +%fire damage would always boost your damage while %crit damage will always be conditional on actually landing a crit.
I personally think that crit damage should be nerfed in the same fashion as attack speed was to allow for new stats and old stats to compete. Crit chance would also become a bit more of a niche stat if you weren't always running critical attacks through a 400% multiplier.
Probably, but the problem is that the current +% to certain elemental damage is too low to be considered as an option. Instead you can add a +110% CD in a single item. They are not comparable.
Using the same idea, I would love to buff certain skills I use all the time, but the problem is the same, a +8% to Pestilence skill is not comparable to a +100% to CD, or even a +8-10% to CC. The numbers are way off. They should make affixes that could add up to 50%+ to a certain skill damage output.
I agree... rewarding rune and class specialization more would make for less generic characters.
The things being suggested by blizz sounds ok, but how does it fix the itemization problem with weapons?
If it doesn't have socket + CD, then its shit. LS is also uber.
Once you get past a certain threshold on dps you're going to find that other stats become more important than CD. If you're not to the point where you are willing to pay millions for the difference between 5.5 CC and 6 on a ring or 9% IAS vs 8% then I don't think you've got the experience/time invested in this game to really make a complaint that only CD is important.
Those are some nice assumptions you got there. How about adding in some facts though? You do not need to make D3 your job to understand the mechanics. Gear doesn't have anything to do with math.
Also, why would you try to balance the game around the infinitesimally small minority aiming for the absolute best gear in every slot? Thats how blizzard fucked up D3 to start with...catering to so such people.
The things being suggested by blizz sounds ok, but how does it fix the itemization problem with weapons?
If it doesn't have socket + CD, then its shit. LS is also uber.
The overwhelming problem is that there are too many offensive properties and no limit to how many you can have. So everything boils down to "STUFF AS MUCH OFFENSE ONTO THIS THINGERMAJIGG HERE AS POSSIBLE!" and then you pick up your EHP on stuff like shoulders, legs, belts, chests, boots.
Amulets, for example, can roll 7 different offensive properties, but can only ever have 6 at once. Shoulders, at the other end of the spectrum, can only roll 2 offensive properties.
There's an inherent imbalance there. That's the heart of the problem. CD seems so overpowered because, like the other stats, it's a must-have on the items that can roll it. What if every item could roll every affix (shoulders could net you IAS, Crit Damage, Crit Chance, blah blah blah. But every item were limited to 3 offensive properites. So now you actually choose between which offensive properties you want.... BUT your character isn't outright limited in power because slots like belts and shoulders suddenly become more powerful (or you're not outright pidgeon-holed into stuff like Witching Hour).
Instead of removing all our power, distribute it better across the gear and then let us pick which stats we want to stack. Make survivability/utility have a place by not allowing items to have up-and-down offensive properties. Some properties probably still need to be tuned, but I think this is the most important first step in actually balancing items.
@Indimix
Yes, most of those ability-specific properties need some severe re-balancing too. The ones that provide crit chance to a skill are arguably really good, the ones that don't are arguably really shitty.
EDIT
@morbidlymystic
Life Leech is so damned desireable because it's also limited in availability. I think that really this huge amount of "item engineering" (lawl) is really what is creating most of these issues. If properties were more widely-available then they'd be MUCH easier to balance. They are currently balanced against their limited availability which is just making for this exact system.
there are way more than 1% of players who have gotten a significant amount of CD and are turning to other stats for dps. Getting to 400%+ CD is almost accomplished by just a 2H weapon with a socket. I would honestly be surprised if ANYONE reading this thread couldn't get to 400%+ CD if they wanted to.
Of course you need to have some experience with all level of gearing to make an informed opinion on the game. Would you come on this thread and have a discussion about how imbalanced the end game is from someone who was level 40? Obviously not. Of course the game all appears to be about CD when you're first gearing up after level to 60 because that's where the biggest DPS changes are. All I'm saying is that if you play through the part of the game where it seems there is nothing but CD then you need to play a little longer to get to the next phase.
I'm not saying your opinion isn't welcome, I'm saying that you have that opinion because you haven't played the game enough to find the point where you start looking at other stats. I'm not sure why anyone took offense to that. Of course gearing is about math. Whomever posted that *should* take offense at that. That's why there are gear dps and ehp calculators all over the place for this game. What, do you just buy stuff on the AH and *hope* it is an upgrade?
Alright, specifics. Did you know that a black weapon and a piece of armor that adds % elemental damage is worth more dps than CD? Did you know that IAS has other benefits for certain abilities (run like the wind tornadoes, channeling spells, etc) that increase your actual damage dealt far more than some CD? Have any of you played hardcore? CD isn't nearly as valuable there as IAS and CC because of the things that proc based on hit or crit. Do I need more examples?
I think the core issue is basically what some posters have said here and the Blizzard developer said the other day. In a nutshell, there are just too few "good" stats for the number of affix slots on items. This is compounded in some cases by crit chance and crit damage having a multiplier effect with each other. The solution is to add more "good" affixes and make the "bad" affixes more attractive. Another solution would be to reduce the maximum number of affixes an item can have, but I think there'd be way too much rage over something like that for it to ever happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
The problem that Blizzard (and us) have, is that since there is a RMAH, any drastic change would have a huge and totally valid repercussion of rage in the player base.
Remember the IAS nerf incident?, the forums were on fire. What if all of the sudden they decide that CC + CD should get nerfed?, when 90% of the builds out there are based in CC + CD to obtain a pure DPS advantage?... oh, the horror.
So, they put themselves in a deep hole of staticness™, from where it will be hard to get out.
Also: I'm not willing to pay millions for an extra 0.5% CC. I'm not even willing to pay hundreds. Take a guess why.
Cuz you're more interested in trolling on here? I'm not sure what the point of your post was? Of course it depends on the numbers, even CD is TERRIBLE if it's 1% and you're comparing it to +10% CC and you already have 499% CD. What I'm saying is on average, the average dps gain from elemental damage is going to do more for you on an average dps black weapon than the average CD with average easy to obtain CC.
Don't post again, you're being a jerk and there's no reason for it. I'm offering alternatives and providing information and you're just being a jerk. If you think I'm wrong then YOU do the math on "depends on the numbers" because on some (most) of those numbers, I am right.
www.d3rawr.com for those of you interested in the actual math on it.
I have a 45% CC wiz with 200 CD and 79% IAS and a 7% elemental damage increase on a non-black weapon with a total Int of 2500.
My dps increases per unit from most to least is CC, Elemental Damage, Attack Speed, Crit Dmg, Min/Max dmg, and Int.
In terms of those stats I think I'm far ahead of some characters in terms of IAS and total Int, but that amount of CC and elemental damage is cheap, and the CD is terrible. You'd think that just by looking at my character that I could benefit from some cheap and easy CD but you'd be wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Crit Dmg is a random Affix, so it can roll on most weapons. However, there might not be room or it might be very uncommon for the weapon to roll CD + Socket. These two things are necessary to make an uber weapon.
Thus the solution. A Socket quest for only weapons, and only if they do not already have a socket.
This brings back something cool from D2, could function as another gold sink, and could greatly widen the number of useful weapons out there without creating more or nerfing existing ones.
The blue post from a couple days ago has the best solution; Add more damage increasing, awesome affixes then there are slots. That way if you roll a main stat + vita + all resis + CC + CD + AS gloves, they might not be the best for you because you would rather have a + % physical damage instead of the CC, or + LoH instead of the vita, ect ect.
That kind-of blog gave me faith that Blizzard isn't only aware of the itemization problem, they already have an awesome way of fixing it.
There are only 3 affixes on legendary wpns that are good.
Socket + CD + Main Stat
Many weapons that see absolutely no use can only roll 1 of the above, while others can get all 3. So this at best just slightly levels the playing field and gives some of them a 2nd dps affix. Current BIS already roll all 3, so they have little to nothing to gain, Some may become BIS, but thats fine too. The same weapons being BIS stagnant is boring anyways.
More affixes will help, but does that mean they are changing old legendaries or making new ones? Its also hard to believe that they can make any affix comparable to the OPness of CD. Lots of items already come with things like +% fire dmg, and no one still uses them...
....that's exactly what the patch is going to do. They are going to make thorns viable, I *think* leave pickup radius alone, and add like probably 3 more damage increasing affixes such as + % school of damage, + damage to skill, and add in some affixes that previously couldn't roll on certain items, such as + LoH on gloves, ect.
So yes, all they have to do is patch it to fix it.
That isn't entirely true. Items that add %elemental damage are often incredibly strong, especially combined with black weapons. This is one of the reasons won kim lau is a really good weapon for monks. +Elemental or +physical numbers could easily be tweaked to compare with crit stats even with current itemization because they are even bigger modifiers than CC and CD on a basic level. If you use fire damage all the time, +%fire damage would always boost your damage while %crit damage will always be conditional on actually landing a crit.
I personally think that crit damage should be nerfed in the same fashion as attack speed was to allow for new stats and old stats to compete. Crit chance would also become a bit more of a niche stat if you weren't always running critical attacks through a 400% multiplier.
I think the gear level you are talking about is less of an issue for the game itself than earlier character progression. Without significant help it is pretty hard to get good attack speed/cc/cd items that allow for fast farming or mp progression.
Probably, but the problem is that the current +% to certain elemental damage is too low to be considered as an option. Instead you can add a +110% CD in a single item. They are not comparable.
Using the same idea, I would love to buff certain skills I use all the time, but the problem is the same, a +8% to Pestilence skill is not comparable to a +100% to CD, or even a +8-10% to CC. The numbers are way off. They should make affixes that could add up to 50%+ to a certain skill damage output.
I agree... rewarding rune and class specialization more would make for less generic characters.
If it doesn't have socket + CD, then its shit. LS is also uber.
Those are some nice assumptions you got there. How about adding in some facts though? You do not need to make D3 your job to understand the mechanics. Gear doesn't have anything to do with math.
Also, why would you try to balance the game around the infinitesimally small minority aiming for the absolute best gear in every slot? Thats how blizzard fucked up D3 to start with...catering to so such people.
The overwhelming problem is that there are too many offensive properties and no limit to how many you can have. So everything boils down to "STUFF AS MUCH OFFENSE ONTO THIS THINGERMAJIGG HERE AS POSSIBLE!" and then you pick up your EHP on stuff like shoulders, legs, belts, chests, boots.
Amulets, for example, can roll 7 different offensive properties, but can only ever have 6 at once. Shoulders, at the other end of the spectrum, can only roll 2 offensive properties.
There's an inherent imbalance there. That's the heart of the problem. CD seems so overpowered because, like the other stats, it's a must-have on the items that can roll it. What if every item could roll every affix (shoulders could net you IAS, Crit Damage, Crit Chance, blah blah blah. But every item were limited to 3 offensive properites. So now you actually choose between which offensive properties you want.... BUT your character isn't outright limited in power because slots like belts and shoulders suddenly become more powerful (or you're not outright pidgeon-holed into stuff like Witching Hour).
Instead of removing all our power, distribute it better across the gear and then let us pick which stats we want to stack. Make survivability/utility have a place by not allowing items to have up-and-down offensive properties. Some properties probably still need to be tuned, but I think this is the most important first step in actually balancing items.
@Indimix
Yes, most of those ability-specific properties need some severe re-balancing too. The ones that provide crit chance to a skill are arguably really good, the ones that don't are arguably really shitty.
EDIT
@morbidlymystic
Life Leech is so damned desireable because it's also limited in availability. I think that really this huge amount of "item engineering" (lawl) is really what is creating most of these issues. If properties were more widely-available then they'd be MUCH easier to balance. They are currently balanced against their limited availability which is just making for this exact system.
Of course you need to have some experience with all level of gearing to make an informed opinion on the game. Would you come on this thread and have a discussion about how imbalanced the end game is from someone who was level 40? Obviously not. Of course the game all appears to be about CD when you're first gearing up after level to 60 because that's where the biggest DPS changes are. All I'm saying is that if you play through the part of the game where it seems there is nothing but CD then you need to play a little longer to get to the next phase.
I'm not saying your opinion isn't welcome, I'm saying that you have that opinion because you haven't played the game enough to find the point where you start looking at other stats. I'm not sure why anyone took offense to that. Of course gearing is about math. Whomever posted that *should* take offense at that. That's why there are gear dps and ehp calculators all over the place for this game. What, do you just buy stuff on the AH and *hope* it is an upgrade?
Alright, specifics. Did you know that a black weapon and a piece of armor that adds % elemental damage is worth more dps than CD? Did you know that IAS has other benefits for certain abilities (run like the wind tornadoes, channeling spells, etc) that increase your actual damage dealt far more than some CD? Have any of you played hardcore? CD isn't nearly as valuable there as IAS and CC because of the things that proc based on hit or crit. Do I need more examples?
Remember the IAS nerf incident?, the forums were on fire. What if all of the sudden they decide that CC + CD should get nerfed?, when 90% of the builds out there are based in CC + CD to obtain a pure DPS advantage?... oh, the horror.
So, they put themselves in a deep hole of staticness™, from where it will be hard to get out.
Cuz you're more interested in trolling on here? I'm not sure what the point of your post was? Of course it depends on the numbers, even CD is TERRIBLE if it's 1% and you're comparing it to +10% CC and you already have 499% CD. What I'm saying is on average, the average dps gain from elemental damage is going to do more for you on an average dps black weapon than the average CD with average easy to obtain CC.
Don't post again, you're being a jerk and there's no reason for it. I'm offering alternatives and providing information and you're just being a jerk. If you think I'm wrong then YOU do the math on "depends on the numbers" because on some (most) of those numbers, I am right.
I have a 45% CC wiz with 200 CD and 79% IAS and a 7% elemental damage increase on a non-black weapon with a total Int of 2500.
My dps increases per unit from most to least is CC, Elemental Damage, Attack Speed, Crit Dmg, Min/Max dmg, and Int.
In terms of those stats I think I'm far ahead of some characters in terms of IAS and total Int, but that amount of CC and elemental damage is cheap, and the CD is terrible. You'd think that just by looking at my character that I could benefit from some cheap and easy CD but you'd be wrong.