ok lets call the troops back, let iraq fall apart more than it already is, full scale civil war, iran will just march in, but wait that isnt legal either so then the UN will write a letter expresing thier anger with them for invasion and we will end up back in iraq pushing out iran
and before u say that we was in thier illegally so was a few other countries
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you ever meet a hafling and a hungry dragon you dont have to outrun the dragon, you only have to outrun the hafling.
about ridding countries of dictators... has anyone but Michael Moore thought of the dictatorships sponsored by the US government? Its all about what suits them more. To these guys theres always profit, not right or wrong. And the lack of othe supowerpowers makes it possible for them to do what they want.
whats also most important is not to let such things start. especially when you actually can do something about it (being in the country that does that stuff can allow u change some things too).
Hell, the goddamn Iraqis probably don't even know what life would be like without America bombing them morning, noon and night, their soldiors kicking in their doors every other month, half of their sons rounded up and sent to a prison for no justifiable reason, their children torn to pieces by shrapnel...
I'd please ask you to go back and re-read my post (post number 77 or thereabouts [page 8 with default settings]).
Stuff like what you mentioned is a lot less common then the media tells you it is.
Now please, don't label me as a super-unbreakably-stupid-"I love America because its just better" type of person, because I'm not.
I love America because, even though we aren't perfect and niether are our leaders, we are FREE and though we make mistakes we are BETTER.
Theres a reason we have more illegal immigrants than pretty much anyone else in the world right now. People wanna be here because its (in most ways) better than the alternatives. Just the truth.
Now, I don't want this to turn into a fighting match, so I'll see if you guys respond to this and maybe say a word or to back, but I think I'm done here. Minds are made up. Arguing isn't going to change someone overnight, especially on a topic like this. Thanks for listening.
about ridding countries of dictators... has anyone but Michael Moore thought of the dictatorships sponsored by the US government?
isnt michael moore a radical?? doesnt he say a bunch of other crap that isnt real??
in all, this goes to everyone who disagrees with me. LOL. you are all too stubborn, and are jealous. we are the world superpower, and yes that does make us the best. that doesnt mean we're arrogant. in fact, we are the opposite. people here say how much america should get involved in world affairs and help all the countries that need it. i dont see your precious sweden or france doing what we do. concerning war crimes and illegal doings, when is it illegal to declare war?? you said before that we committed the war crime of dropping bombs on japan. but you failed to say they committed a "war crime" by out of the blue dropping thousands of unsuspecting americans. it was called pearl harbor. o yes, they got us off guard, and we suffered heavily because of the crime, the illegality they did. learn to view things from our point of view before you criticize.
remember when Rome was great?? how it conquered and grew, how it slaughtered thousands in its way to greatness?? sure, the roman empire gave lots of advancements to the world, using the water wheel, starting water and sewage systems, forming the greatest military at its time, and even changing the world with its architecture and use of natural forces to do what they wanted. but imagine all the peasants of other countries that were either slaughtered or enslaved, the cities burned to the ground, all the bad of rome. why is it we remember rome, because of the bad they did, or the good and what they contributed to the world??
this is the same thing with the US. i bet other countries saw rome as the superpower, and said, "look at all the bad things they do. they are criminals, they are arrogant, and they are power hungry." hmmmm sounds like someone i know. same with the greeks. they enslaved and treated macedonia as second class, trash. they waged constant war upon each other, they were angry towards their own. they were a self-destroying people, but they did a lot to help the world.
benjamin franklin, a father of this wonderful country, was a adulterer. ghandi favored young women. lincoln was a crybaby. notice that a lot of people who played a large role in the way the world works today were flawed. in the same way, we are not perfect. but we have done much more than you gex or fingolfinGR are giving us credit for. maybe your just angry that we are better. maybe your just taking your anger on the country that saved you from germany in world war II. no matter what it is you have against us, it is not logical, and not something that tells of the character you have.
to end this post, i would like to recite something from lord of the rings, from sam gamgee.
------------------------------------
"How could the world go back to the way that it was when so much bad had happened?... Folk in those stories could have turned back many times. But they didn't. They kept going on, because they were holding on to something." - Sam
"What were they holding on to Sam?" - Froto
"That there is some good in the world, Mr. Froto. And it's worth fighting for."
---------------------------------
that is what the US is fighting for. for the good in the world. we are fighting the suicidal crazed militant radical muslims, those that would have anyone who do not believe in what they do dead. we fight for the right to believe in what you want, for freedoms that are tied with responsibility, for the lives of people that would otherwise be under the guns of terrorists. we fight for people like you, FingolfinGR, to have the right to say what you think without your life threatened or taken. we fight for peace, for safety, to give other countries the chance to thrive. why dont you believe in our good?? you seem to find small ways to deflect my statements about our helpings to the world, yet there is no solid proof you have. the US has led the technological revolution that has brought us the gadgets we use today, the internet you use, the games we play. o yes, blizzard is an american company.
so why is it you hate so much?? i hate because everyone does. i hate arrogance just as much as the next guy. i hate lies as much as you. i hate just as much as you do, but the direction in which i direct that anger is completely different. you focus on us, and i focus on those that threaten my country. iran, north korea, even russia and china. i know however that we can destroy them all, even without nukes. even though it would be a good plan to "invade" north korea, i think we are doing good in having china and japan handle it.
i covered a lot on this post. take it all in, absorb it. dont just find things to isolate and attack individually, read and really think about it. ive taken your comments to heart, but more of your comments are attack-ish than fact. yes, i think you are a very intellegent individual, though your logic is, to me, very twisted and scewed. view the world from my eyes, because you apparently arent doing that.
yea, where do you live might i ask?? if you live here in my wonderful country, then please relieve yourself from my america, my glorious home for which millions have died. please move to france, or maybe even the middle east. that would remove you from such fat brainfarts as myself. go and do it. why should you meddle with the likes of me, people like me, or even my country?? you deserve better, i agree. i think that you should even go so far as to cut yourself away from everything we produce, export, or influence. that would totally show us americans.
in the end, you wont do any of that. you will remain an ingrate, a sad little mound of flesh that is supposed to be a human being. you will remain in this country, reaping its benefits, watching its tv, driving it its streets, and doing business with people like me. you will hate this country until the day you die, and hate yourself more for hating that which feeds and clothes you. you will forever bite the hand that feeds you, because that is all you can do, ask for food and spit in the face that gave it to you.
so shut the fuck (pardon my language everyone else) up and sit down. dont type or utter another word against this country you little shit. people like you make me sick, people like you will spit at their father and beat their mother. millions of people have died for your fucking right to say all that crap, and the least you can do is respect them and the country that has given you those freedoms. along with this, go ahead and think over your sick and twisted mindset, because the US still has a long way to go before it falls. you will never see the day the US falls, because there will always be those like me that will pick up a weapon and fight for what is right, to keep this country to falling to anti-americanism such as yours.
go and burn some flags dipshit. but remember that there will always be people that die for your damn right to do so.
does anyone else agree with this jerk?? this is what i said about irationality. this is pure hate people, and if you believe this in the US you dont belong here.
the country, and i guess the site too, since it is something that the US started. you know the internet. but, you can stay if your pro american. thanks for bday.
well, no problem. however if you are beating your head on the wall of stupid, i have reason to believe youve done it before. maybe some of the wall fell into your head and slowly ate your brain, which explains your anti-american views. and the self torture also says a lot about your psychological stability.
on a side note, everything i said can apply to you in britain. people there fought and died for your rights, as well as americans. so basically i can modify my rant to apply to you. jerk.
im gonna end the debate with gex because he is just not willing to, as willie said, "stop asking for people to look at it from your perspective, and look at it form their perspective". as for your questions, willie, here are your answers:
f-reedom is what a country, a people have when they finally have some control of their lives, america is free.
-i know there is much wrong with america, no country is great. im just saying that so far it is more good than bad, and the attitudes we display are many and varied.
-i do rain down on people that offend that which gives them something. i just think it is way wrong when you spit in the face of those that have given you what you have, freedom. which is what gex is doing. he can only see the bad in the US, but i still see the good.
-about bush, i personally dont think he is perfect, in fact far from it. but if you go around iraq, you will see the thousands of iraqis that are overjoyed now that their free, and that the US has liberated them from such an oppressive dictator. in my eyes, bush saved a people, and also put a price tag on bin ladens forhead, something i doubt mr clinton would have done. i do recognize that we could be doing better right now, and that bush is definately not perfect. but since my country chose him, i will follow the leader, and im following with wide open eyes.
-that austrian might not have political experience, but no position in government requires you to have any. it would be nice if you did, but you dont really need it. arnold won because he had the right ideas and he appealed to people, because he said he would change things, and he did. he is wavering from his conservative self, but he definately did change things for california. besides, the US is made of immigrants. isnt it great to show how someone can really make a difference even though you werent born in the country??
-i dont have muslims, i hate the extremists militant people claiming to be muslim and that want to kill me simply because im not a militant muslim.
-i dont hate christians, but i dont believe in christianity. the thought of a god that is never angry and always merciful is not fair, in my eyes, to those that do work their whole life to be good. id rather just be a good person for the sake of being good, because its the right thing to do.
-i dont believe in god, therefore i do not think this country is god's nation. however i do believe that it is the best. im not going to feel sorry for natives, for war is war. that was one of the bad things we have done, the things we did with natives, but as they say, war brings the worst out of people. in that case it was true.
-i have already said before that america is not perfect, if it were we wouldnt be arguing about this
-the world doesnt hate it, and that is the biggest misconception out there. most of the world wants to come here, or at least have something of us. the chinese people like our restaurants, or clothes, they love a lot of our stuff. and the chinese also make a very large percentage of the world population so your question was totally opinion.
i know where your from. and im not biggin the US either. i just want people to start showing appreciation for my country, because without my country the world would be worse off. i dont have the exact facts, but if you guys want me to i can make up a list of what this country has done, and is doing. so yea, at least you dont try to offend the person your talking to, and i respect that. the reason i wanted to quit this debate was because people were becoming angry, and i dont like to speak to someone who will not see things from a different view, because it does not make for a debate. it makes for a war of words.
but if you go around iraq, you will see the thousands of iraqis that are overjoyed now that their free, and that the US has liberated them from such an oppressive dictator
have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).
and also put a price tag on bin ladens forhead
the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.
-that austrian might not have political experience, but no position in government requires you to have any. it would be nice if you did, but you dont really need it. arnold won because he had the right ideas and he appealed to people, because he said he would change things, and he did. he is wavering from his conservative self, but he definately did change things for california. besides, the US is made of immigrants. isnt it great to show how someone can really make a difference even though you werent born in the country??
I guess the fact that hes popular due to his action films had nothing to do with him being elected, right?
It wasnt common sense that got him elected, it was popularity. Most voted for the Terminator, not the real person.
Also as ex-president of the US and ex-oscar prize winner Ronald Reagan (i might have misspelled, forgive me about that) said: Its harder to win an oscar than become the president of the United States. In his stupidity he said something right.
i hate the extremists militant people claiming to be muslim and that want to kill me simply because im not a militant muslim.
question:
are muslims that took their weapons to defend their countries included in your "extremists" definition? cause most of the guys that got killed by the US troops only did what i just said.
id rather just be a good person for the sake of being good, because its the right thing to do.
whats the right thing to do? hmmm, let me guess. Fighting and taking over other countries to give privileges (?) to people from the country of which you come from (not specifically about you, talking about anyone). Being a good person requires of him to be forgiving, avoid violence in most cases (defense doesnt count as a violent act) and stuff like that. I like the Christian ethics alot, i just dont think the world is ready for them yet. (Just like communism).
the chinese people like our restaurants, or clothes, they love a lot of our stuff.
why do i have the feeling that US citizens also like many of the stuff that come outside the US too (chinese restaurants for example - btw, the only US food i know of is junk food). That doesnt prove that any country is any good or better.
without my country the world would be worse off
i wouldnt be too sure about that, but its mere speculation since your country is here and i think its gonna be here for quite sometime.
common sense mate. Common sense. Try to look the other way around too!
well i guess i cant really argue. no matter what the other says we will find ways to bring the other down.
have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).
no i havent been there but my uncle was there. and i also saw the iraqi people bringing down the sadam statue. those were iraqis, not the US armed forces.
the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.
where is the proof that bush is profiting from the war?? and the fact that we almost had him does not mean we let him go, its the fact that the desert rat was still far away and he could have gone anywhere. there werent enough forces to find and track him.
I guess the fact that hes popular due to his action films had nothing to do with him being elected, right?
It wasnt common sense that got him elected, it was popularity. Most voted for the Terminator, not the real person.
Also as ex-president of the US and ex-oscar prize winner Ronald Reagan (i might have misspelled, forgive me about that) said: Its harder to win an oscar than become the president of the United States. In his stupidity he said something right.
maybe it helped, but if it was just popularity and not his common sense he would be out by now. about reagan, (and you spelled it right) no it is not. its harder to become the leader of this great country, because many stupid actors and actresses get oscars. and dont call reagan stupid please, because he had the best personality than any other president and was the one who made this country prosper at a rate never seen before. during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences, and russia became no longer a major concern to us. reagan was a good president.
are muslims that took their weapons to defend their countries included in your "extremists" definition? cause most of the guys that got killed by the US troops only did what i just said.
no they are not. those are iraqis. the extremists are the ones ramming planes into our buildings. the ones blowing up vans of explosives in populated areas. and your notion that we kill thousands of innocents is an exageration. yes people have died in the hands of the US troops, but the majority have died from suicide bombings and the like, caused by extremist muslims.
whats the right thing to do? hmmm, let me guess. Fighting and taking over other countries to give privileges (?) to people from the country of which you come from (not specifically about you, talking about anyone). Being a good person requires of him to be forgiving, avoid violence in most cases (defense doesnt count as a violent act) and stuff like that. I like the Christian ethics alot, i just dont think the world is ready for them yet. (Just like communism).[quote]
i agree with you a bit here, except for your view on things. i think it is noble to free people, but wrong to do so with force. but in those situations, diplomacy was tried, and war was the last resort. by your reasoning the south had every right to keep slaves and the North should not have declared war. after all, the south was just defending itself. about christian ethics, i agree with most too, jews make more sense to me. communism will never be an existance, because a person gets a feeling of entitlement. the same feeling when you marry or have kids. people get attached to things, and communism works against that. it is a dream. i dont like john lennon, but i will quote his song. "imagine" he says. and that is all you can do, since it is just a dream. as far as i can see, communism has failed everywhere it has been attempted. democracy has thrived every time it started, but was corrupted from the inside such as the greeks. the US has been a big contributer of the world, and democracy seems to be working where it is, dont you think??
[quote]why do i have the feeling that US citizens also like many of the stuff that come outside the US too (chinese restaurants for example - btw, the only US food i know of is junk food). That doesnt prove that any country is any good or better.
i wasnt making a reference about our superiority, but about our popularity. the chinese love us. and as you said, we love the chinese. i was merely trying to say that the US is not hated in the majority of the world (which is by the way, chinese since they make one of the biggest population next to india, which also loves us)
without my country the world would be worse off i wouldnt be too sure about that, but its mere speculation since your country is here and i think its gonna be here for quite sometime.
your right, i have now way to measure that. but since a lot of countries do business with us, it is only fair to assume that we are a huge piece of the world market.
common sense mate. Common sense. Try to look the other way around too!
i agree with you man. and i do sometimes fail to grasp the complete picture, but i do try, and i would ask you to do the same, since you have such a burning hate towards conservatism. just use logic, not emotion. emotion is what gets people to do stupid things, and is not a quality that true leaders and philosophers have.
during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences
same happened during Hittlers presidency in Germany btw.
i think it is noble to free people, but wrong to do so with force.
bingo!
communism will never be an existance, because a person gets a feeling of entitlement.
good to know u think about it the same way. Theres nothing wrong about communism itself. Just about the people that try to make it happen - they're just not ready for it.
democracy has thrived every time it started, but was corrupted from the inside such as the greeks.
actually it was imperialism that sort of corrupted the way things worked in ancient Greece. I agree a bit more with the "oligarchy" as it was in Sparta - where people had the right to vote too and were equal with each other - women were also way more respected than in Athens. But the thing is that they were different times. The modern democracy is way less a democracy than it was when it first started (and its also not hard to see why, back then it was only cities, now there are millions in the same country).
Best thing for the democracy to work would be independent media. By this i mean that propaganda from one or the other side shouldnt exist and journalists should do what they have to: be objective and show whats really going on. As long as both sides have propaganda (i'd be a fool to think otherwise) it wont work that well.
i do sometimes fail to grasp the complete picture, but i do try
thats why i bother argueing with u
since you have such a burning hate towards conservatism
to that ur wrong. I dont hate any ideas besides the ones that are proven to be worth hating (neo-nazism etc). I always try to see the whole picture and many times i agreed with u, as you should remember
well im happy we agree on stuff, because it doesnt seem so much sometimes, especially when i have you, gex, and mutton chops on me. lol. 1 vs 3. i must be doing a good job if i have kept my ground this long.
same happened during Hittlers presidency in Germany btw.
unfortunately hitler was evil. he was the best leader in the world, that ever existed, and he used it for evil. what a shame. he brought a country out of depression and turned it into a world power, that is what i like about the germans. they are motivated yo.
bingo!
yes, i do think its wrong to do it by force, but this is a matter of the greater good. iraqis wanted to be freed, and the few that didnt were in power. so in this way we didnt harm the many for the few, we actually did it for their freedom. if they didnt want us there they wouldnt be establishing democracy there.
good to know u think about it the same way. Theres nothing wrong about communism itself. Just about the people that try to make it happen - they're just not ready for it.
good, now say the whole thing: communism can never exist. you can do it, cmon!!
thats why i bother argueing with u [quote]
likewise
[quote]to that ur wrong. I dont hate any ideas besides the ones that are proven to be worth hating (neo-nazism etc). I always try to see the whole picture and many times i agreed with u, as you should remember
then im sorry, but your views seem to extend that feeling of negativity towards conservatism and its figures, such as our good president Ronald Reagan.
I haven't read every reply in here, but I would like to reply to whoever said that there is a lot of hate towards America in Iraq right now.
You need to stop watching the news and talk to some real people. Real soldiers who were really there. Its a COMPLETELY different story than what we see on the news and read in the paper.
You're wrong entirely. If you're looking to "expose the reality" of something, you're picking the wrong subjects, because it's a widely known fact that America is for the most part, hated by countries in the Middle East. Also, not many countries in Africa and South America like us either. And there are quite a few leaders of countries in Europe that have declared (meager) support for the U.S., however, the majority of people in those countries hate us.
Its also a plain fact that Saddam was set there and supported by former US governments.
You are quite right. In the early 1960s the CIA began supporting the Ba'ath party, among other parties in Iraq in order to contend with the then current leader of Iraq, Abdul Karim Qassim, whom the CIA believed to be Communist. In 1963, the Ba'athists overthrow Qassim in a coup and became the ruling party of Iraq. Saddam was only a deputy to the president until 1979, when he became the president. One of his primary goals was to seize as much oil as possible. He seized as much of international oil sources as possible in 1972 a year later, gas prices rose dramatically because of the 1973 Energy Crisis.
In order to attain power and to assure his succession, he proclaimed all his percieved potential opponents as traitors and spies and they were arrested and 22 of them were executed.
The CIA allowed him to commit many of the atrocities that he had dealt simply for the reason that he said he believed in Capitalism and it was one less country that they had to worry about the spread of Communism for.
In 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait in order to double the percentage of crude oil that they had. The international community frowned upon this because, since Kuwait and Iraq held such a large percentage of the world's oil, they feared that the conflict would send the world economy into turmoil. Hence, was the only reason Saddam was stopped from invading Kuwait.
Tensions have remained high, from then up until this new Iraq War, especially with the alleged attempted assassination of Bush Sr. on a trip to Kuwait. Which seems to be the of the main reasons why Iraq seemed to get Bush Jr.'s panties in a wad.
There's also a civil war far more devastating than the bombing there
No civil war yet. However, you are right that it will be a long road before this war is over. The government that the U.S. put in place over there is a piece of shit and many of the elected officials have been assassinated.
if you hold the american leaders responsible for casualties in other countries, you must be willing to accept that leaders in other countries are responsible for casualties too. the reason i say this, is because using your reasoning would mean that lincoln was responsible for the millions of americans killed during the civil war.
That brings up another good point. Many countries such as Britain, Spain, and not anymore, but still valid, France have or had given us troops for the campaign in Iraq. They weren't usually under their own flags. They were under American flags and it is safe to assume that they were responsible for a percentage of the casualties. I'd put it at 10ish%.
and you feel that the US is not a good superpower huh?? who would you like to be a superpower?? who would do a better job??
Who cares who can do a better job? Any country that has power over another country will abuse that power in some fashion. It's simply human.
2. yes we did screw up, but isnt that our responsibility? to fix our problem??
It's our responsibility, but their problem. We fucked their shit up.
just think of life today, if america had kept the idea of isolationalism in WWII
the entire world praising the Reich Fuhrer
Most likely not, because at some point or another Germany would have run out of steam and more countries would have entered the war.
If only America had returned to being isolationist after the war. Prior to WWII, we were in an economic and technological boom.
Ok, I've only read the first few posts that were made to mine but it seems that the whole fucking bullshit argument ''USA saved everyone in the world's asses during WWII" seems to be the backup plan cos they don't want to discuss the validity of the Iraqi war anymore. I wonder why.
Wow that's bullshit. I gave you a huge lecture on why it was a valid war. The problem is that you fail to recognize that it wasn't the war that was essentially bad, but it was the procedure used. Yes, it was the right thing to do to kick Saddam's ass, however, it was not right to basically sit on Iraq and make big sloppy shit all over it.
America only put their asses out when they were attacked. Japan, by the way, made you their bitches.
Yes...I distinctly remember a picture of two Japanese cities...in...flames? No, I think those are just fireworks cuz they kicked our ass, right? Here's what I'm seeing:
Just like the Vietnamese.
Okay, now we are talking about a war where America was fighting against not only Vietnam, but two of the largest post-WWII communist superpowers, Russia and China. But if you just want to talk about Vietnam and U.S.A lets compare casualties:
U.S.A:
dead: 58,209
wounded: 153,303
Vietnam:
dead: 1,100,000
wounded: 600,000
Sounds like the Vietnamese soldiers got raped.
But besides that, the Vietnam was more of a proxy war, among many other proxy wars between the US and the USSR in order to prevent direct conflict, possibly leading to global nuclear warfare. So America might have lost at Vietnam, but the US still won the arms race, ultimately, after the USSR collapsed.
No doubt that Britian, just like any other country has sent many of it's children out to die, tragically. But the difference is that we don't look at WW2 as a glorious event. It was a fucking horrific one, not one that should be gloated about.
It's not a matter of "gloating", as we consider events such as D-Day symbols of patriotism. If you go to any WWII memorials in America, I can guarantee you that none of them say anything along the lines of, "Yay! We saved Britain and kicked Germany's ass!"
Muttonchops, my source is that: I have lost count of the amount of times that I have heard a Yank (because once an American becomes a patriotic extremist, he becomes simply a Yank) say "well, our soldiors have died for our freedom of speech so I'ma say what I like"..
Not many of 'em really. They're the ignorant ones. Although many can say that it is a war to spread Democracy, which was technically already in Iraq, the main purpose of the war was to stop a dictator.
What most people dont get in here is that what the US did to Iraq was INVASION. Is that legal? NO. period. end of story. The rest is just excuses.
Technically, there is not such thing as international law, so you can't call it illegal. And the UN isn't going to do anything and wouldn't do anything anyways. The UN is a broken tool. Take the genocide in Rwanda, for example. The UN could do nothing to stop it, even though they had troops there, because they couldn't "prove" it. Despite the fact that there were troops there who saw it. Also, corraborating stories from hundreds of people, that managed to escape.
But the truth is that you have been in Iraq for so goddamn long that you would not know any more than your presidenct would how the country would be if you left it alone for a year or 2.
I know how the country would be if we left it alone for a year or two. Muslim extremist groups would fight over control of the country and dismantle anything that the U.S. puts in place.
I'm not saying ANY country is right in being there, but it seems that the only people to ever defend their government's involvment in any war is Americans.
Maybe it's because we're more patriotic than other countries are? Perhaps it's cuz we are willing to say that we support our government? Let's not forget that Britain is STILL involved as well.
has anyone but Michael Moore thought of the dictatorships sponsored by the US government?
No, it's obvious that America has sponsored dictatorships, simply because they said they were capitalist. We're still dealing with remnants of the cold war.
isnt michael moore a radical?? doesnt he say a bunch of other crap that isnt real??
99% of what he says is true, although he does stretch details and mince words.
Quote from "Gex" »
Now, what has America given the world that can really be compared?
Cars, internet, foreign aid, the refridgerator, the telephone, for starters. That's just off the top of my head.
i think that you should even go so far as to cut yourself away from everything we produce, export, or influence.
Well...technically, America doesn't really export much anymore. In fact, we destroy most of our excess resources, in order to maintain certain market prices. Ever wonder why produce prices don't fluctuate by much? It's because farmers are paid not to grow food. We destroy enough wheat in this country to feed the world multiple times every year. But such is the way of capitalism.
I'm English. Tool.
Ouch, I have to say this, Carloseus, but can I call you toast? Cuz you got bbuuuurrrrrrnnnned.
I do know decent Americans that are open-minded, enjoy hearing what other people have to say about their country, and say they never though of it like that.
There are people like that in all countries. Then, there are also people who are close-minded retards who aren't willing to accept other people's perspectives. *cough* Bush *cough*
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).
There are refugees for everything. But when it's televised, that sure does pull out that sympathy factor.
the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.
Actually, Clinton would have caught Bin Laden, however, the CIA and Congress (both held by Republicans who want to stop Clinton so that they can call him on his "inaction" later) would not authorize basing rights in Afghanistan, which basically meant he would have to deploy by night. Bush just tossed out all of Clintons battle plans and intel and ignored the whole terror issue for the 8 months leading up to 9/11.
where is the proof that bush is profiting from the war??
Oil fields in Iraq were seized by American troops and are now property of Halliburton, which is owned by Dick Cheney. Also, most of the profits earned didn't go to line Bush's pockets, but to oil and other corporations who back him.
just use logic, not emotion. emotion is what gets people to do stupid things, and is not a quality that true leaders and philosophers have.
Amen! Brotha!
and dont call reagan stupid please, because he had the best personality than any other president and was the one who made this country prosper at a rate never seen before.
Judging a president solely on personality is bullshit. Reagan was an asshole. But he sure did appeal to the rich, as most republicans do. And the poverty rate went up 5 percent from the time he went in to the time when he left office.
during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences, and russia became no longer a major concern to us. reagan was a good president.
Yes, unemployment did drop...by 2.1%, which is good. And yes, illiteracy did drop as well. But he raised national debt by 2.5 trillion dollars, simply spent on overkill on weapons since it was evident at the time that the Soviet Russia could not keep up. And there was 1 trillion dollar debt leftover from wars all the way back to the American Revolution. That's a ridiculously large amount of money. Also, he shut down hundreds of mental hospitals, which spiked unemployment and crime rates. Congress had to pass laws in order to STOP him from closing more mental health facilities. Yes it was that bad.
have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).
if u was in iraq would u speak out against saddam??? unless you value your life i dont think u would
didnt they show the statue of saddam being topple in baghdad?? or was that just in america???
oo ya we just go in thier guns blazing killing everyone... hmm
wow... its a quote fest lol
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If you ever meet a hafling and a hungry dragon you dont have to outrun the dragon, you only have to outrun the hafling.
yes, i do think its wrong to do it by force, but this is a matter of the greater good. iraqis wanted to be freed, and the few that didnt were in power. so in this way we didnt harm the many for the few, we actually did it for their freedom. if they didnt want us there they wouldnt be establishing democracy there.
there's still no freedom there. Since your forces are there and the war is far from over there cant be a free Iraq. Not just the US forces, English, French etc too. The right decisions arent made to help them out there.
then im sorry, but your views seem to extend that feeling of negativity towards conservatism and its figures, such as our good president Ronald Reagan.
especially about Reagan i read a whole book. I dont make things up. What i'm saying is honestly what i think after reading some stuff about him from a very valid greek journalist. He only became famous because he accused people of being communists, even if they were or they werent.
good, now say the whole thing: communism can never exist. you can do it, cmon!!
communism can exist, but not now. When the world is ready for equality it the revolution will take place. But not now or anytime soon.
In 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait in order to double the percentage of crude oil that they had. The international community frowned upon this because, since Kuwait and Iraq held such a large percentage of the world's oil, they feared that the conflict would send the world economy into turmoil. Hence, was the only reason Saddam was stopped from invading Kuwait.
the US provided with weapons both Iraq and Kuwait at this point.
That brings up another good point. Many countries such as Britain, Spain, and not anymore, but still valid, France have or had given us troops for the campaign in Iraq. They weren't usually under their own flags. They were under American flags and it is safe to assume that they were responsible for a percentage of the casualties. I'd put it at 10ish%.
agreed.
Yes...I distinctly remember a picture of two Japanese cities...in...flames? No, I think those are just fireworks cuz they kicked our ass, right?
am i the only one that thinks that was the biggest war crime in modern history? Condemning not just the soldiers but the innocent citizens plus generations to come isnt something to be proud of.
U.S.A:
dead: 58,209
wounded: 153,303
Vietnam:
dead: 1,100,000
wounded: 600,000
Sounds like the Vietnamese soldiers got raped.
point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day. And one more thing. The US were never attacked by another country (after Pearl Harbor) and never fought on their own grounds. In most cases they were the attackers.
Although many can say that it is a war to spread Democracy, which was technically already in Iraq, the main purpose of the war was to stop a dictator.
ur wrong about that. The main reason to attack Iraq (as stated by G. Bush Jr.) was "to continue the war against terrorism" and "stop Saddam because he has weapons of mass destruction and is a threat to the whole world". Oh, he also said "he tried to kill my father". Well from these 3 points only the last is valid and it shouldnt bring a whole nation to war, dont you think?
Cars
first car was invented by the german Daymler (or how hes called). Right after came Ford i think.
didnt they show the statue of saddam being topple in baghdad?? or was that just in america???
oo ya we just go in thier guns blazing killing everyone... hmm
besides pictures like that (that i've seen too), i've seen whole cars of dead children from the bombings. Have u? No? Watch Fahrenheit 9/11, u'll see them moving too...
I will only believe that the war was worthit when every foreign force pulls out of Iraq and Iraq lives on, as a democratic nation.
Looks like we know you were supporting the idea of leaving a genocidal dictator alone.
Their governments may love you, but the people realy DO have something against you.
It's because I'm so damned sexy.
Haha, but seriously. That's fine, countries can hate us, but Americans hate a lot of other countries. For one, I, in particular, hate Britain (government specifically). The British has had a long history of this "shoot first, ask questions later" strategy. They are responsible for the majority of world-wide problems in this country. Middle East Crisis, Britain's fault, since they were basically leading all nine Crusades there, except for the first one, which they were still involved in. They are responsible for the Pakistan/India conflict, just because they wanted freedom and didn't want to leave without making them suffer. They are responsible for Israel/Palestine, since they are the ones that basically shoved all the Euro-Jews there after WWII, just because they didn't want them in Europe. So they stuck 'em in a place they didn't give a shit about. The Middle East. South Africa? Them. Britain has done far worse things than America has ever done.
I also hate France, which has a long history of copping out of wars. WWII for example, the country basically bent over for Germany. And here is a breif summary of some of the wars they have been in. Try looking up "French Military Victories" on Google and pressing, Im Feeling Lucky. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html
And there is a huge number of people that would agree with me.
Wrong. In Vietnam it was a 16:1 ratio of American casualties to Vietnamese casualties.
Oh? So I guess Wikipedia is wrong then. As I took my casualty count from there.
I think that the figures of only 20% of you have a passport help that theory.
That doesn't mean we're close-minded. It means we don't travel, asshole.
And I believe that your actions and attitudes towards the world or individual countries does certainly not help. I think that the world is going into a decline of freedom an increase of 'extremist' opinions, and I think America's actions and attitude is fueling that. And it's very apparent.
There will always be many injustices in the world. And there will always be a huge number of people that lack freedom. Some could think of it as a balance of nature.
The thing is, much as there are inarguable reasons why the US isn't a great country, over-patriotic and under-thinking dickheads will defend it like the poor brainwashed fuckwits have been raised to.
I guess I'm the only poor brainwashed fuckwit that is actually using legitimate sources in this argument. How the hell does patriotism make us a bad country. Just because many of us tend to like our government doesn't make us any more wrong (for the record, I hate Bush). And I must be under-thinking, as it doesn't take much thought to show how wrong you are.
Hell, SOMEONE has to defend America's reputation, and argue it's good points, right?
And alone, that someone has managed to bring up more legitimate points with credible sources than any nay-sayers here.
It SURE as shit ain't going to be anyone other than an American.
Japan is still dickriding us. That's why we're the first country besides Japan to get the new Nintendos and Playstations. Also, Tony Blair is buffing us.
I gave several extended arguments that have disproved the majority of points that have been brought up against America and you guys seem to act all circumloquacious about it, just to avoid the fact that I just proved that you were wrong.
point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day.
And if that is the number of how many people we killed as opposed to how many they killed? That should say something about how much stronger this country is.
first car was invented by the german Daymler (or how hes called). Right after came Ford i think.
I stand corrected for once. The first car was invented by Karl Benz in Germany.
besides pictures like that (that i've seen too), i've seen whole cars of dead children from the bombings. Have u? No? Watch Fahrenheit 9/11, u'll see them moving too...
Watch the attack on World Trade Centers, you'll see thousands of people dying. And quite a few people jumping out of the towers in order to escape the turmoil. You'll also see even more people running in terror.
ur wrong about that. The main reason to attack Iraq (as stated by G. Bush Jr.) was "to continue the war against terrorism" and "stop Saddam because he has weapons of mass destruction and is a threat to the whole world". Oh, he also said "he tried to kill my father". Well from these 3 points only the last is valid and it shouldnt bring a whole nation to war, dont you think?
I knew he was full of shit after he made those statements from the start. However, I agreed with the war on a different basis. Regardless of whether or not he had the bomb, he was a dictator who killed his own people and needed to be removed. You cannot expect an idiot like Bush to give you the real reasons for a war. But in response to your claiming that I am wrong, he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy. Well, if another country tries to assassinate the leader of another country, that sounds like war to me.
communism can exist, but not now. When the world is ready for equality it the revolution will take place. But not now or anytime soon.
Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.
am i the only one that thinks that was the biggest war crime in modern history? Condemning not just the soldiers but the innocent citizens plus generations to come isnt something to be proud of.
Three reasons as to why we got away with it:
-Baton Death March
-pre-emptive attack on Pearl Harbor. Basically, Germany told Japan to keep America from entering the war in Europe. Unbeknownst to both of them that not only could America manage a war on two fronts, but virtually dominated, defeated the naval superpower of the world, Japan, as well as Germany.
-Japan committed a genocide ranging from 6 million to 10 million people, over half of them being from countries such as China, the Phillipines, Korean, Indonesia and Indochina. The rest were of Japanese people. And that's just inbetween 1937 and 1945. Japan had a secret service, basically the same as the Gestapo, called the Kempeitai, which oversaw the genocides. Most notably of which was the Rape of Nanking. Look it up.
the US provided with weapons both Iraq and Kuwait at this point.
Bush Sr. Another oil tycoon. Also, as director of the CIA, he was responsible for the orders given to purge entire villages in countries such as Taiwan, Vietnam and Korea.
Looks like we know you were supporting the idea of leaving a genocidal dictator alone.
he still has half Iraq on his side. I dont say hes any good, dont get me wrong. What i'm saying is that the way the situation was handled caused more casualties than it would with a more delicate approach (could be stealth assasination or something like it - same with Bin Laden, but it wouldnt suit Bush to see him dead)
he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy.
If its like "Fighting for Peace" then it doesnt make sense to me. Its the same as "Fucking for Virginity". Forcing freedom (?) cant be done. Our freedom we take for ourselves. You from the english, we from the Turks etc.
Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.
wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.
You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).
Watch the attack on World Trade Centers, you'll see thousands of people dying. And quite a few people jumping out of the towers in order to escape the turmoil. You'll also see even more people running in terror.
I actually did. But if u check the numbers of how many innocent died of US bombings u'll notice they're way, way more than that. This doesnt justify it ofc, its all innocent people. But think of other people in the Middle-East (Syria and Iran atm) that think/know they might be the next to be bombed...
Thats at least the same terror to my eyes.
btw, i really like such intelligent conversations without insults. We all learn something that way.
point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day. And one more thing. The US were never attacked by another country (after Pearl Harbor) and never fought on their own grounds. In most cases they were the attackers.[quote]
yes, but that was because of people wishing for "peace". they wanted to "stop the violence and bloodshed" but right after we pulled out what happened?? thousands of innocent vietnamese were savagely slaughtered. the same will happen in iraq if we repeat the same mistake. as for being attacked, no we havent been attacked my a country, but by an idea. an idea made by radical muslims.
It's because I'm so damned sexy.
Haha, but seriously. That's fine, countries can hate us, but Americans hate a lot of other countries. For one, I, in particular, hate Britain (government specifically). The British has had a long history of this "shoot first, ask questions later" strategy. They are responsible for the majority of world-wide problems in this country. Middle East Crisis, Britain's fault, since they were basically leading all nine Crusades there, except for the first one, which they were still involved in. They are responsible for the Pakistan/India conflict, just because they wanted freedom and didn't want to leave without making them suffer. They are responsible for Israel/Palestine, since they are the ones that basically shoved all the Euro-Jews there after WWII, just because they didn't want them in Europe. So they stuck 'em in a place they didn't give a shit about. The Middle East. South Africa? Them. Britain has done far worse things than America has ever done.
I also hate France, which has a long history of copping out of wars. WWII for example, the country basically bent over for Germany. And here is a breif summary of some of the wars they have been in. Try looking up "French Military Victories" on Google and pressing, Im Feeling Lucky. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html
And there is a huge number of people that would agree with me.
woot another french hater!!! but i do think we took a lot of our stuff from britain, and i dont necessarily hate them, i just prefer the good ol' US. good points muttonchops.
And alone, that someone has managed to bring up more legitimate points with credible sources than any nay-sayers here.
good, i guess i have reinforcements. am i that alone person??
knew he was full of shit after he made those statements from the start. However, I agreed with the war on a different basis. Regardless of whether or not he had the bomb, he was a dictator who killed his own people and needed to be removed. You cannot expect an idiot like Bush to give you the real reasons for a war. But in response to your claiming that I am wrong, he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy. Well, if another country tries to assassinate the leader of another country, that sounds like war to me.
i could not have said it better. amen.
Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.
you forgot china.
Three reasons as to why we got away with it:
-Baton Death March
-pre-emptive attack on Pearl Harbor. Basically, Germany told Japan to keep America from entering the war in Europe. Unbeknownst to both of them that not only could America manage a war on two fronts, but virtually dominated, defeated the naval superpower of the world, Japan, as well as Germany.
-Japan committed a genocide ranging from 6 million to 10 million people, over half of them being from countries such as China, the Phillipines, Korean, Indonesia and Indochina. The rest were of Japanese people. And that's just inbetween 1937 and 1945. Japan had a secret service, basically the same as the Gestapo, called the Kempeitai, which oversaw the genocides. Most notably of which was the Rape of Nanking. Look it up.
i consider 9-11 a war crime as well.
wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.
You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).
im sorry, but it is just a dream. there will always people that think of themselves and their family. everyone wants whats best for their family, and there are also those that will do nothing and still expect a benefit. refer to welfare.
no the nukes in japan were justified, no where did it say one country couldnt use nukes on the other. if germany or japan had a nuke it would have been employed immediately and efficiently. however they didnt, so the japanese dropped sever thousand bombs instead. and we also did it there because we knew that the japs would never surrender. that is why they were blowing up ships with suicide bombers.
wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.
You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).
[quote]I actually did. But if u check the numbers of how many innocent died of US bombings u'll notice they're way, way more than that. This doesnt justify it ofc, its all innocent people. But think of other people in the Middle-East (Syria and Iran atm) that think/know they might be the next to be bombed...
Thats at least the same terror to my eyes.
no, its not. its more terrifying seeing a plane slamming into a building and seeing people jumping out of windows from the tall building just to end their lives quicker. then the building collapsing. then having to look through the remains for your family or freinds, or fellow country men. i think that mindset change itself was devastating. knowing that your country was attacked out of the blue to cause such damage to the city of the world is just terrifying, and it shook not only the whole US, but many other countries. it made everone think, "wow. if that happened to them, what makes us safe??" that is why i think your wrong there
btw, i really like such intelligent conversations without insults. We all learn something that way.
i do too, thats why im still here.
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and before u say that we was in thier illegally so was a few other countries
whats also most important is not to let such things start. especially when you actually can do something about it (being in the country that does that stuff can allow u change some things too).
I'd please ask you to go back and re-read my post (post number 77 or thereabouts [page 8 with default settings]).
Stuff like what you mentioned is a lot less common then the media tells you it is.
Now please, don't label me as a super-unbreakably-stupid-"I love America because its just better" type of person, because I'm not.
I love America because, even though we aren't perfect and niether are our leaders, we are FREE and though we make mistakes we are BETTER.
Theres a reason we have more illegal immigrants than pretty much anyone else in the world right now. People wanna be here because its (in most ways) better than the alternatives. Just the truth.
Now, I don't want this to turn into a fighting match, so I'll see if you guys respond to this and maybe say a word or to back, but I think I'm done here. Minds are made up. Arguing isn't going to change someone overnight, especially on a topic like this. Thanks for listening.
isnt michael moore a radical?? doesnt he say a bunch of other crap that isnt real??
in all, this goes to everyone who disagrees with me. LOL. you are all too stubborn, and are jealous. we are the world superpower, and yes that does make us the best. that doesnt mean we're arrogant. in fact, we are the opposite. people here say how much america should get involved in world affairs and help all the countries that need it. i dont see your precious sweden or france doing what we do. concerning war crimes and illegal doings, when is it illegal to declare war?? you said before that we committed the war crime of dropping bombs on japan. but you failed to say they committed a "war crime" by out of the blue dropping thousands of unsuspecting americans. it was called pearl harbor. o yes, they got us off guard, and we suffered heavily because of the crime, the illegality they did. learn to view things from our point of view before you criticize.
remember when Rome was great?? how it conquered and grew, how it slaughtered thousands in its way to greatness?? sure, the roman empire gave lots of advancements to the world, using the water wheel, starting water and sewage systems, forming the greatest military at its time, and even changing the world with its architecture and use of natural forces to do what they wanted. but imagine all the peasants of other countries that were either slaughtered or enslaved, the cities burned to the ground, all the bad of rome. why is it we remember rome, because of the bad they did, or the good and what they contributed to the world??
this is the same thing with the US. i bet other countries saw rome as the superpower, and said, "look at all the bad things they do. they are criminals, they are arrogant, and they are power hungry." hmmmm sounds like someone i know. same with the greeks. they enslaved and treated macedonia as second class, trash. they waged constant war upon each other, they were angry towards their own. they were a self-destroying people, but they did a lot to help the world.
benjamin franklin, a father of this wonderful country, was a adulterer. ghandi favored young women. lincoln was a crybaby. notice that a lot of people who played a large role in the way the world works today were flawed. in the same way, we are not perfect. but we have done much more than you gex or fingolfinGR are giving us credit for. maybe your just angry that we are better. maybe your just taking your anger on the country that saved you from germany in world war II. no matter what it is you have against us, it is not logical, and not something that tells of the character you have.
to end this post, i would like to recite something from lord of the rings, from sam gamgee.
------------------------------------
"How could the world go back to the way that it was when so much bad had happened?... Folk in those stories could have turned back many times. But they didn't. They kept going on, because they were holding on to something." - Sam
"What were they holding on to Sam?" - Froto
"That there is some good in the world, Mr. Froto. And it's worth fighting for."
---------------------------------
that is what the US is fighting for. for the good in the world. we are fighting the suicidal crazed militant radical muslims, those that would have anyone who do not believe in what they do dead. we fight for the right to believe in what you want, for freedoms that are tied with responsibility, for the lives of people that would otherwise be under the guns of terrorists. we fight for people like you, FingolfinGR, to have the right to say what you think without your life threatened or taken. we fight for peace, for safety, to give other countries the chance to thrive. why dont you believe in our good?? you seem to find small ways to deflect my statements about our helpings to the world, yet there is no solid proof you have. the US has led the technological revolution that has brought us the gadgets we use today, the internet you use, the games we play. o yes, blizzard is an american company.
so why is it you hate so much?? i hate because everyone does. i hate arrogance just as much as the next guy. i hate lies as much as you. i hate just as much as you do, but the direction in which i direct that anger is completely different. you focus on us, and i focus on those that threaten my country. iran, north korea, even russia and china. i know however that we can destroy them all, even without nukes. even though it would be a good plan to "invade" north korea, i think we are doing good in having china and japan handle it.
i covered a lot on this post. take it all in, absorb it. dont just find things to isolate and attack individually, read and really think about it. ive taken your comments to heart, but more of your comments are attack-ish than fact. yes, i think you are a very intellegent individual, though your logic is, to me, very twisted and scewed. view the world from my eyes, because you apparently arent doing that.
in the end, you wont do any of that. you will remain an ingrate, a sad little mound of flesh that is supposed to be a human being. you will remain in this country, reaping its benefits, watching its tv, driving it its streets, and doing business with people like me. you will hate this country until the day you die, and hate yourself more for hating that which feeds and clothes you. you will forever bite the hand that feeds you, because that is all you can do, ask for food and spit in the face that gave it to you.
so shut the fuck (pardon my language everyone else) up and sit down. dont type or utter another word against this country you little shit. people like you make me sick, people like you will spit at their father and beat their mother. millions of people have died for your fucking right to say all that crap, and the least you can do is respect them and the country that has given you those freedoms. along with this, go ahead and think over your sick and twisted mindset, because the US still has a long way to go before it falls. you will never see the day the US falls, because there will always be those like me that will pick up a weapon and fight for what is right, to keep this country to falling to anti-americanism such as yours.
go and burn some flags dipshit. but remember that there will always be people that die for your damn right to do so.
does anyone else agree with this jerk?? this is what i said about irationality. this is pure hate people, and if you believe this in the US you dont belong here.
on a side note, everything i said can apply to you in britain. people there fought and died for your rights, as well as americans. so basically i can modify my rant to apply to you. jerk.
f-reedom is what a country, a people have when they finally have some control of their lives, america is free.
-i know there is much wrong with america, no country is great. im just saying that so far it is more good than bad, and the attitudes we display are many and varied.
-i do rain down on people that offend that which gives them something. i just think it is way wrong when you spit in the face of those that have given you what you have, freedom. which is what gex is doing. he can only see the bad in the US, but i still see the good.
-about bush, i personally dont think he is perfect, in fact far from it. but if you go around iraq, you will see the thousands of iraqis that are overjoyed now that their free, and that the US has liberated them from such an oppressive dictator. in my eyes, bush saved a people, and also put a price tag on bin ladens forhead, something i doubt mr clinton would have done. i do recognize that we could be doing better right now, and that bush is definately not perfect. but since my country chose him, i will follow the leader, and im following with wide open eyes.
-that austrian might not have political experience, but no position in government requires you to have any. it would be nice if you did, but you dont really need it. arnold won because he had the right ideas and he appealed to people, because he said he would change things, and he did. he is wavering from his conservative self, but he definately did change things for california. besides, the US is made of immigrants. isnt it great to show how someone can really make a difference even though you werent born in the country??
-i dont have muslims, i hate the extremists militant people claiming to be muslim and that want to kill me simply because im not a militant muslim.
-i dont hate christians, but i dont believe in christianity. the thought of a god that is never angry and always merciful is not fair, in my eyes, to those that do work their whole life to be good. id rather just be a good person for the sake of being good, because its the right thing to do.
-i dont believe in god, therefore i do not think this country is god's nation. however i do believe that it is the best. im not going to feel sorry for natives, for war is war. that was one of the bad things we have done, the things we did with natives, but as they say, war brings the worst out of people. in that case it was true.
-i have already said before that america is not perfect, if it were we wouldnt be arguing about this
-the world doesnt hate it, and that is the biggest misconception out there. most of the world wants to come here, or at least have something of us. the chinese people like our restaurants, or clothes, they love a lot of our stuff. and the chinese also make a very large percentage of the world population so your question was totally opinion.
i know where your from. and im not biggin the US either. i just want people to start showing appreciation for my country, because without my country the world would be worse off. i dont have the exact facts, but if you guys want me to i can make up a list of what this country has done, and is doing. so yea, at least you dont try to offend the person your talking to, and i respect that. the reason i wanted to quit this debate was because people were becoming angry, and i dont like to speak to someone who will not see things from a different view, because it does not make for a debate. it makes for a war of words.
have you been there? Are you sure they didnt act like they're "overjoyed" in fear of another "Saddam-wise" execution?
I've seen refugees during that time (civilians) hoping Saddam (!) would stop the US invasion (the news that the american channels wouldnt show, ofc).
the fact that your troops let him go when he could catch him in Afghanistan is irrelevant, eh? Also the fact that family Bush and Bin Laden had most profit after 9/11 is also irrelevant i guess. Thanks mr Bush.
I guess the fact that hes popular due to his action films had nothing to do with him being elected, right?
It wasnt common sense that got him elected, it was popularity. Most voted for the Terminator, not the real person.
Also as ex-president of the US and ex-oscar prize winner Ronald Reagan (i might have misspelled, forgive me about that) said: Its harder to win an oscar than become the president of the United States. In his stupidity he said something right.
question:
are muslims that took their weapons to defend their countries included in your "extremists" definition? cause most of the guys that got killed by the US troops only did what i just said.
whats the right thing to do? hmmm, let me guess. Fighting and taking over other countries to give privileges (?) to people from the country of which you come from (not specifically about you, talking about anyone). Being a good person requires of him to be forgiving, avoid violence in most cases (defense doesnt count as a violent act) and stuff like that. I like the Christian ethics alot, i just dont think the world is ready for them yet. (Just like communism).
why do i have the feeling that US citizens also like many of the stuff that come outside the US too (chinese restaurants for example - btw, the only US food i know of is junk food). That doesnt prove that any country is any good or better.
i wouldnt be too sure about that, but its mere speculation since your country is here and i think its gonna be here for quite sometime.
common sense mate. Common sense. Try to look the other way around too!
no i havent been there but my uncle was there. and i also saw the iraqi people bringing down the sadam statue. those were iraqis, not the US armed forces.
where is the proof that bush is profiting from the war?? and the fact that we almost had him does not mean we let him go, its the fact that the desert rat was still far away and he could have gone anywhere. there werent enough forces to find and track him.
maybe it helped, but if it was just popularity and not his common sense he would be out by now. about reagan, (and you spelled it right) no it is not. its harder to become the leader of this great country, because many stupid actors and actresses get oscars. and dont call reagan stupid please, because he had the best personality than any other president and was the one who made this country prosper at a rate never seen before. during his presidency unemployment and illeteracy rates went way down, more people had more modern conveniences, and russia became no longer a major concern to us. reagan was a good president.
no they are not. those are iraqis. the extremists are the ones ramming planes into our buildings. the ones blowing up vans of explosives in populated areas. and your notion that we kill thousands of innocents is an exageration. yes people have died in the hands of the US troops, but the majority have died from suicide bombings and the like, caused by extremist muslims.
i wasnt making a reference about our superiority, but about our popularity. the chinese love us. and as you said, we love the chinese. i was merely trying to say that the US is not hated in the majority of the world (which is by the way, chinese since they make one of the biggest population next to india, which also loves us)
your right, i have now way to measure that. but since a lot of countries do business with us, it is only fair to assume that we are a huge piece of the world market.
i agree with you man. and i do sometimes fail to grasp the complete picture, but i do try, and i would ask you to do the same, since you have such a burning hate towards conservatism. just use logic, not emotion. emotion is what gets people to do stupid things, and is not a quality that true leaders and philosophers have.
same happened during Hittlers presidency in Germany btw.
bingo!
good to know u think about it the same way. Theres nothing wrong about communism itself. Just about the people that try to make it happen - they're just not ready for it.
actually it was imperialism that sort of corrupted the way things worked in ancient Greece. I agree a bit more with the "oligarchy" as it was in Sparta - where people had the right to vote too and were equal with each other - women were also way more respected than in Athens. But the thing is that they were different times. The modern democracy is way less a democracy than it was when it first started (and its also not hard to see why, back then it was only cities, now there are millions in the same country).
Best thing for the democracy to work would be independent media. By this i mean that propaganda from one or the other side shouldnt exist and journalists should do what they have to: be objective and show whats really going on. As long as both sides have propaganda (i'd be a fool to think otherwise) it wont work that well.
thats why i bother argueing with u
to that ur wrong. I dont hate any ideas besides the ones that are proven to be worth hating (neo-nazism etc). I always try to see the whole picture and many times i agreed with u, as you should remember
unfortunately hitler was evil. he was the best leader in the world, that ever existed, and he used it for evil. what a shame. he brought a country out of depression and turned it into a world power, that is what i like about the germans. they are motivated yo.
yes, i do think its wrong to do it by force, but this is a matter of the greater good. iraqis wanted to be freed, and the few that didnt were in power. so in this way we didnt harm the many for the few, we actually did it for their freedom. if they didnt want us there they wouldnt be establishing democracy there.
good, now say the whole thing: communism can never exist. you can do it, cmon!!
then im sorry, but your views seem to extend that feeling of negativity towards conservatism and its figures, such as our good president Ronald Reagan.
but actually i dont no what to believe
You're wrong entirely. If you're looking to "expose the reality" of something, you're picking the wrong subjects, because it's a widely known fact that America is for the most part, hated by countries in the Middle East. Also, not many countries in Africa and South America like us either. And there are quite a few leaders of countries in Europe that have declared (meager) support for the U.S., however, the majority of people in those countries hate us.
You are quite right. In the early 1960s the CIA began supporting the Ba'ath party, among other parties in Iraq in order to contend with the then current leader of Iraq, Abdul Karim Qassim, whom the CIA believed to be Communist. In 1963, the Ba'athists overthrow Qassim in a coup and became the ruling party of Iraq. Saddam was only a deputy to the president until 1979, when he became the president. One of his primary goals was to seize as much oil as possible. He seized as much of international oil sources as possible in 1972 a year later, gas prices rose dramatically because of the 1973 Energy Crisis.
In order to attain power and to assure his succession, he proclaimed all his percieved potential opponents as traitors and spies and they were arrested and 22 of them were executed.
The CIA allowed him to commit many of the atrocities that he had dealt simply for the reason that he said he believed in Capitalism and it was one less country that they had to worry about the spread of Communism for.
In 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait in order to double the percentage of crude oil that they had. The international community frowned upon this because, since Kuwait and Iraq held such a large percentage of the world's oil, they feared that the conflict would send the world economy into turmoil. Hence, was the only reason Saddam was stopped from invading Kuwait.
Tensions have remained high, from then up until this new Iraq War, especially with the alleged attempted assassination of Bush Sr. on a trip to Kuwait. Which seems to be the of the main reasons why Iraq seemed to get Bush Jr.'s panties in a wad.
No civil war yet. However, you are right that it will be a long road before this war is over. The government that the U.S. put in place over there is a piece of shit and many of the elected officials have been assassinated.
That brings up another good point. Many countries such as Britain, Spain, and not anymore, but still valid, France have or had given us troops for the campaign in Iraq. They weren't usually under their own flags. They were under American flags and it is safe to assume that they were responsible for a percentage of the casualties. I'd put it at 10ish%.
Who cares who can do a better job? Any country that has power over another country will abuse that power in some fashion. It's simply human.
It's our responsibility, but their problem. We fucked their shit up.
Most likely not, because at some point or another Germany would have run out of steam and more countries would have entered the war.
If only America had returned to being isolationist after the war. Prior to WWII, we were in an economic and technological boom.
Wow that's bullshit. I gave you a huge lecture on why it was a valid war. The problem is that you fail to recognize that it wasn't the war that was essentially bad, but it was the procedure used. Yes, it was the right thing to do to kick Saddam's ass, however, it was not right to basically sit on Iraq and make big sloppy shit all over it.
Yes...I distinctly remember a picture of two Japanese cities...in...flames? No, I think those are just fireworks cuz they kicked our ass, right? Here's what I'm seeing:
Okay, now we are talking about a war where America was fighting against not only Vietnam, but two of the largest post-WWII communist superpowers, Russia and China. But if you just want to talk about Vietnam and U.S.A lets compare casualties:
U.S.A:
dead: 58,209
wounded: 153,303
Vietnam:
dead: 1,100,000
wounded: 600,000
Sounds like the Vietnamese soldiers got raped.
But besides that, the Vietnam was more of a proxy war, among many other proxy wars between the US and the USSR in order to prevent direct conflict, possibly leading to global nuclear warfare. So America might have lost at Vietnam, but the US still won the arms race, ultimately, after the USSR collapsed.
It's not a matter of "gloating", as we consider events such as D-Day symbols of patriotism. If you go to any WWII memorials in America, I can guarantee you that none of them say anything along the lines of, "Yay! We saved Britain and kicked Germany's ass!"
Not many of 'em really. They're the ignorant ones. Although many can say that it is a war to spread Democracy, which was technically already in Iraq, the main purpose of the war was to stop a dictator.
Technically, there is not such thing as international law, so you can't call it illegal. And the UN isn't going to do anything and wouldn't do anything anyways. The UN is a broken tool. Take the genocide in Rwanda, for example. The UN could do nothing to stop it, even though they had troops there, because they couldn't "prove" it. Despite the fact that there were troops there who saw it. Also, corraborating stories from hundreds of people, that managed to escape.
I know how the country would be if we left it alone for a year or two. Muslim extremist groups would fight over control of the country and dismantle anything that the U.S. puts in place.
Maybe it's because we're more patriotic than other countries are? Perhaps it's cuz we are willing to say that we support our government? Let's not forget that Britain is STILL involved as well.
No, it's obvious that America has sponsored dictatorships, simply because they said they were capitalist. We're still dealing with remnants of the cold war.
99% of what he says is true, although he does stretch details and mince words.
Cars, internet, foreign aid, the refridgerator, the telephone, for starters. That's just off the top of my head.
Well...technically, America doesn't really export much anymore. In fact, we destroy most of our excess resources, in order to maintain certain market prices. Ever wonder why produce prices don't fluctuate by much? It's because farmers are paid not to grow food. We destroy enough wheat in this country to feed the world multiple times every year. But such is the way of capitalism.
Ouch, I have to say this, Carloseus, but can I call you toast? Cuz you got bbuuuurrrrrrnnnned.
There are people like that in all countries. Then, there are also people who are close-minded retards who aren't willing to accept other people's perspectives. *cough* Bush *cough*
There are refugees for everything. But when it's televised, that sure does pull out that sympathy factor.
Actually, Clinton would have caught Bin Laden, however, the CIA and Congress (both held by Republicans who want to stop Clinton so that they can call him on his "inaction" later) would not authorize basing rights in Afghanistan, which basically meant he would have to deploy by night. Bush just tossed out all of Clintons battle plans and intel and ignored the whole terror issue for the 8 months leading up to 9/11.
Oil fields in Iraq were seized by American troops and are now property of Halliburton, which is owned by Dick Cheney. Also, most of the profits earned didn't go to line Bush's pockets, but to oil and other corporations who back him.
Amen! Brotha!
Judging a president solely on personality is bullshit. Reagan was an asshole. But he sure did appeal to the rich, as most republicans do. And the poverty rate went up 5 percent from the time he went in to the time when he left office.
Yes, unemployment did drop...by 2.1%, which is good. And yes, illiteracy did drop as well. But he raised national debt by 2.5 trillion dollars, simply spent on overkill on weapons since it was evident at the time that the Soviet Russia could not keep up. And there was 1 trillion dollar debt leftover from wars all the way back to the American Revolution. That's a ridiculously large amount of money. Also, he shut down hundreds of mental hospitals, which spiked unemployment and crime rates. Congress had to pass laws in order to STOP him from closing more mental health facilities. Yes it was that bad.
if u was in iraq would u speak out against saddam??? unless you value your life i dont think u would
didnt they show the statue of saddam being topple in baghdad?? or was that just in america???
oo ya we just go in thier guns blazing killing everyone... hmm
wow... its a quote fest lol
there's still no freedom there. Since your forces are there and the war is far from over there cant be a free Iraq. Not just the US forces, English, French etc too. The right decisions arent made to help them out there.
especially about Reagan i read a whole book. I dont make things up. What i'm saying is honestly what i think after reading some stuff about him from a very valid greek journalist. He only became famous because he accused people of being communists, even if they were or they werent.
communism can exist, but not now. When the world is ready for equality it the revolution will take place. But not now or anytime soon.
the US provided with weapons both Iraq and Kuwait at this point.
agreed.
am i the only one that thinks that was the biggest war crime in modern history? Condemning not just the soldiers but the innocent citizens plus generations to come isnt something to be proud of.
point remains that Vietnam was the biggest defeat of the american forces to this day. And one more thing. The US were never attacked by another country (after Pearl Harbor) and never fought on their own grounds. In most cases they were the attackers.
ur wrong about that. The main reason to attack Iraq (as stated by G. Bush Jr.) was "to continue the war against terrorism" and "stop Saddam because he has weapons of mass destruction and is a threat to the whole world". Oh, he also said "he tried to kill my father". Well from these 3 points only the last is valid and it shouldnt bring a whole nation to war, dont you think?
first car was invented by the german Daymler (or how hes called). Right after came Ford i think.
besides pictures like that (that i've seen too), i've seen whole cars of dead children from the bombings. Have u? No? Watch Fahrenheit 9/11, u'll see them moving too...
Looks like we know you were supporting the idea of leaving a genocidal dictator alone.
It's because I'm so damned sexy.
Haha, but seriously. That's fine, countries can hate us, but Americans hate a lot of other countries. For one, I, in particular, hate Britain (government specifically). The British has had a long history of this "shoot first, ask questions later" strategy. They are responsible for the majority of world-wide problems in this country. Middle East Crisis, Britain's fault, since they were basically leading all nine Crusades there, except for the first one, which they were still involved in. They are responsible for the Pakistan/India conflict, just because they wanted freedom and didn't want to leave without making them suffer. They are responsible for Israel/Palestine, since they are the ones that basically shoved all the Euro-Jews there after WWII, just because they didn't want them in Europe. So they stuck 'em in a place they didn't give a shit about. The Middle East. South Africa? Them. Britain has done far worse things than America has ever done.
I also hate France, which has a long history of copping out of wars. WWII for example, the country basically bent over for Germany. And here is a breif summary of some of the wars they have been in. Try looking up "French Military Victories" on Google and pressing, Im Feeling Lucky.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html
And there is a huge number of people that would agree with me.
Oh? So I guess Wikipedia is wrong then. As I took my casualty count from there.
That doesn't mean we're close-minded. It means we don't travel, asshole.
There will always be many injustices in the world. And there will always be a huge number of people that lack freedom. Some could think of it as a balance of nature.
I guess I'm the only poor brainwashed fuckwit that is actually using legitimate sources in this argument. How the hell does patriotism make us a bad country. Just because many of us tend to like our government doesn't make us any more wrong (for the record, I hate Bush). And I must be under-thinking, as it doesn't take much thought to show how wrong you are.
And alone, that someone has managed to bring up more legitimate points with credible sources than any nay-sayers here.
Japan is still dickriding us. That's why we're the first country besides Japan to get the new Nintendos and Playstations. Also, Tony Blair is buffing us.
I gave several extended arguments that have disproved the majority of points that have been brought up against America and you guys seem to act all circumloquacious about it, just to avoid the fact that I just proved that you were wrong.
And if that is the number of how many people we killed as opposed to how many they killed? That should say something about how much stronger this country is.
I stand corrected for once. The first car was invented by Karl Benz in Germany.
Watch the attack on World Trade Centers, you'll see thousands of people dying. And quite a few people jumping out of the towers in order to escape the turmoil. You'll also see even more people running in terror.
I knew he was full of shit after he made those statements from the start. However, I agreed with the war on a different basis. Regardless of whether or not he had the bomb, he was a dictator who killed his own people and needed to be removed. You cannot expect an idiot like Bush to give you the real reasons for a war. But in response to your claiming that I am wrong, he also said that he wanted to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy. Well, if another country tries to assassinate the leader of another country, that sounds like war to me.
Communism couldn't work, because humans make it fail. Simply for the fact that all humans want power. Examples? Stalin. Lenin.
Three reasons as to why we got away with it:
-Baton Death March
-pre-emptive attack on Pearl Harbor. Basically, Germany told Japan to keep America from entering the war in Europe. Unbeknownst to both of them that not only could America manage a war on two fronts, but virtually dominated, defeated the naval superpower of the world, Japan, as well as Germany.
-Japan committed a genocide ranging from 6 million to 10 million people, over half of them being from countries such as China, the Phillipines, Korean, Indonesia and Indochina. The rest were of Japanese people. And that's just inbetween 1937 and 1945. Japan had a secret service, basically the same as the Gestapo, called the Kempeitai, which oversaw the genocides. Most notably of which was the Rape of Nanking. Look it up.
Bush Sr. Another oil tycoon. Also, as director of the CIA, he was responsible for the orders given to purge entire villages in countries such as Taiwan, Vietnam and Korea.
he still has half Iraq on his side. I dont say hes any good, dont get me wrong. What i'm saying is that the way the situation was handled caused more casualties than it would with a more delicate approach (could be stealth assasination or something like it - same with Bin Laden, but it wouldnt suit Bush to see him dead)
If its like "Fighting for Peace" then it doesnt make sense to me. Its the same as "Fucking for Virginity". Forcing freedom (?) cant be done. Our freedom we take for ourselves. You from the english, we from the Turks etc.
wouldnt work NOW! To that we agree. But i do hope that sometime people will think of something more than just their asses. Its a hope for the future not something i believe to happen soon.
You're also right about what you said of why you got away with the nuclear bomb. But its still a big crime to my eyes. Showing that another one did at least something like it isnt a reason to do the same. Look for what happened with the Holocaust. Why didnt you plant a bomb in the middle of Germany instead? (On second thought i'm grateful that none in command during that time asked himself that, we could have seen that happen).
I actually did. But if u check the numbers of how many innocent died of US bombings u'll notice they're way, way more than that. This doesnt justify it ofc, its all innocent people. But think of other people in the Middle-East (Syria and Iran atm) that think/know they might be the next to be bombed...
Thats at least the same terror to my eyes.
btw, i really like such intelligent conversations without insults. We all learn something that way.
woot another french hater!!! but i do think we took a lot of our stuff from britain, and i dont necessarily hate them, i just prefer the good ol' US. good points muttonchops.
good, i guess i have reinforcements. am i that alone person??
i could not have said it better. amen.
you forgot china.
i consider 9-11 a war crime as well.
im sorry, but it is just a dream. there will always people that think of themselves and their family. everyone wants whats best for their family, and there are also those that will do nothing and still expect a benefit. refer to welfare.
no the nukes in japan were justified, no where did it say one country couldnt use nukes on the other. if germany or japan had a nuke it would have been employed immediately and efficiently. however they didnt, so the japanese dropped sever thousand bombs instead. and we also did it there because we knew that the japs would never surrender. that is why they were blowing up ships with suicide bombers.
no, its not. its more terrifying seeing a plane slamming into a building and seeing people jumping out of windows from the tall building just to end their lives quicker. then the building collapsing. then having to look through the remains for your family or freinds, or fellow country men. i think that mindset change itself was devastating. knowing that your country was attacked out of the blue to cause such damage to the city of the world is just terrifying, and it shook not only the whole US, but many other countries. it made everone think, "wow. if that happened to them, what makes us safe??" that is why i think your wrong there
i do too, thats why im still here.