Then you will never believe in humanity. (unless you believe in something along the lines of the Christian Revalations, then after that you could believe because all problems would be solved, but you said you are athiest so that's unlikely) There will always be some one in the world willing to believe or create a, by your term, 'cult' that will manipulate the minds of others.
I put 'cult' in the '' things cause I think that any religion is a form of a cult. A cult is merely a religion or belief that is currently unaccepted by the mass majority of people, thus making it unpopular, therefore the religion gets the negative belief term 'cult' attached to it. The Protestant church was considered a cult when it was first made, now it is a full-fledged religion with sub-religions under it. (just throwing that in so we may stop using this 'cult' term, I just feel it is an unjustified and biased word)
Simple fact of the matter though, people will always believe what they want to until they have hard actual fact. I believe in the Bible because that's what feel right TO ME. Some people would choose to believe in this scientology because it makes them feel better or it just seems right TO THEM. Even if you think the happiness it gives is false and all that it says are lies, to those people that believe in it, it's real.
As for the expensive required donations... I'm not sure who to believe, whether Carloseus is right (which if he is, this faith doesn't sound all that bad) or if Enlyth is right. Carloseus is at least basing his thoughts off an experience he has had or experiences that his father has had. Enlyth is basing his information from things he has found on the internet, (so is my understanding) which is fine, but the problem with the internet is that it is going to be as biased about this religion as the media is. It's called card stacking, a type of propaganda and persuasive argument. They are only going to show one side of the issue and ignore the other.
In any case, every religion has what can nearly be considered a required donation. If you don't donate when you go to church then you are quite frowned upon. I remember reading somewhere that no matter what church you belong to, the suggested donation is somewhere around 10% of your weekly paycheck. (if you go each week) Not to mention the fact that (at least in America) churches and religious owned lands are tax-free, meaning that we all pay for their property taxes with our taxes.
So before you go bashing one religion for actually being blunt and asking for the money upfront, you should probably think about a number of others that make you feel guilty if you don't pay.
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Only once they understand will they know what the truth really is.
This is my Tale.
Try making your own Leap Of Faith... You might save more than just your life.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
I want definate evidence that Scientology actually caused those deaths. Sites like that anyone can throw up and use as "official" references. You are clearly biased and unwilling to listen to another's point of view. You show no real evidence, just a bunch of theories from people who hate Scientology for what it really is, a threat to Christianity and/or the quo-pro. You are not taking into account at all what I've told you, you are simply ignoring it and forcing your hateful beliefs upon all of us. You are a hate-monger, you discriminate. You discriminate against others for their beliefs, thats wrong. You hate a people for what they want and what they believe in, and its pure hatred that spews from you. There is no room for conversation, this thread might as be closed now because your attitude and conduct concerning this topic will get worse and worse as time it carries on.
This whole thread was made in order to tie Scientology up a tree and let everyone wack it. The minute someone tries to balance the conversation by offering insight and open-mindedness, I get this, and it will get worse.
And maybe the reason I defend it so much is what it did for me. Some of you know of my childhood in school, I have no idea where I would be if my parents would have broken up and not having a solid family there for me, or if my dad did not make the changes he made. It made him a better man, a better father, and I owe everything to him. Scientology is partially responsible for the person I am today, it kept my world from falling apart. There is nothing in the world that can do something so great and be a percentage of the evil you frame it to be. Read some books, open your mind some more, and maybe learn to accept others.
In some cases of US litigation against the Church, former Scientologists appearing as expert witnesses have since stated that they submitted false and inflammatory declarations intended to incite prejudice against Scientology,[141] and harassed key Scientology executives, by advancing unfounded opinions to get a case dropped or to obtain a settlement.[142]
That's off Wikipedia. Don't worry, I read most of the other stuff that was said there, but here's a really good example of what they have to deal with.
Put into perspective, the Bible is the greatest force to murder in history.
The Crusades, 100,000's die all because of a Christian Belief.
Suicide bombings in the Middle-East, 100,000's die because of Muslim (Extremist) beliefs.
The Thirty Years war between Catholics and Protestants, 100,000s die.
Religion is a institute of death.
Although arguably, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, all prominent dictators of the 20th century, caused millions of deaths that overshadow those caused by the Bible tremendously.
Quote from "Tale" »
Carloseus is at least basing his thoughts off an experience he has had or experiences that his father has had. Enlyth is basing his information from things he has found on the internet, (so is my understanding) which is fine, but the problem with the internet is that it is going to be as biased about this religion as the media is. It's called card stacking, a type of propaganda and persuasive argument. They are only going to show one side of the issue and ignore the other.
The Internet is not going to be as biased as the media is. In fact, if the media was biased, I would go to the net straight away, because only there would you be able to find all views of a case reflected.
Of course, an individual site in itself will be biased, but the political correctness that courses through the regular media would not be as existent if you look on the net as a whole.
Quote from "Tale" »
In any case, every religion has what can nearly be considered a required donation. If you don't donate when you go to church then you are quite frowned upon. I remember reading somewhere that no matter what church you belong to, the suggested donation is somewhere around 10% of your weekly paycheck. (if you go each week) Not to mention the fact that (at least in America) churches and religious owned lands are tax-free, meaning that we all pay for their property taxes with our taxes.
The difference being that a church, if you are correct, would like a percentage. The highest costing courses within the Scientology-church costs a set amount of money; hundreds of thousands of dollars in the end
Quote from "Carloseus" »
I want definate evidence that Scientology actually caused those deaths. Sites like that anyone can throw up and use as "official" references. You are clearly biased and unwilling to listen to another's point of view.
And you are not clearly biased?
Quote from "Carloseus" »
You show no real evidence, just a bunch of theories from people who hate Scientology for what it really is, a threat to Christianity and/or the quo-pro. You are not taking into account at all what I've told you, you are simply ignoring it and forcing your hateful beliefs upon all of us.
I could say the same about Scientologists rejecting mind-altering drugs. They offer no real evidence either.
Quote from "Carloseus" »
This whole thread was made in order to tie Scientology up a tree and let everyone wack it. The minute someone tries to balance the conversation by offering insight and open-mindedness, I get this, and it will get worse.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Yeah when you put it in perspective religion is almost always the underlying reason for war. This is one of the main reasons why I am agnostic.
But sometimes the reason people join a religion is because they believe it can help them with whatever problems they have. When you believe that everything happens for a reason, and your life is in "god's hands" it makes life a lot less stressful. So if people believe that they can seek refuge through scientology then I am completely fine with it and wont criticize either way.
By the way I dont know of any cases where scientology directly caused death. But I do know if you dont take medicine for certain illnesses you will die.
I don't believe in any religion, I see it as a poor excuse for answering the unknown questions of the universe that are being quickly uncovered by scientists and scholars around the world. I believe that good morals is a basis of leading a good life and do as to other as you would be done to you. A very simple creed that has not failed me yet.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
If we are going to discuss religion, there is a thread that is called religion, go there and continue it.
As for this whole thread about Scientology, I don't think we need a post open specifically to bash a group of people's beliefs. At the rate this is going it's going to become a flamefest. Unless someone can get this thread back on a descent trail of scientology, I suggest this thread is closed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only once they understand will they know what the truth really is.
This is my Tale.
Try making your own Leap Of Faith... You might save more than just your life.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
Yeah when you put it in perspective religion is almost always the underlying reason for war. This is one of the main reasons why I am agnostic.
But sometimes the reason people join a religion is because they believe it can help them with whatever problems they have. When you believe that everything happens for a reason, and your life is in "god's hands" it makes life a lot less stressful. So if people believe that they can seek refuge through scientology then I am completely fine with it and wont criticize either way.
You know, we need to set this straight. Religion has been used as an excuse for war, but it is the people and their actions that make war happen and not religion.
Do you believe in politics? These cause more wars than religion in this day and age now that religion has been separated from the state in many nations.
In this case Scientology is a belief that allows people to cope with life and death and is not inherently bad. People within Scientology may have done bad things, but then so have people in every other religion and some who aren't religious. If you need an example of non religious people doing bad things then it won't take long to demonstrate some catastrophic events in China and Russia.
So scientology isn't religion?
How are we supposed to discuss any specific religion if we can't discuss "religion" or at least question religion as a whole?
I know the dubious meaning of the word "scientology", if there ever was a word that would defy and paradoxate its own meaning then "scientology" would be it.
Don't be fooled, scientology definatly is a religion and could not be farther from science or any practise that actually questions itself via testing and retesting of theories and evidence if it wanted to be.
:confused:
Sorry, but I thought I said scientology is a religion. That's why i suggested moving it to the religion thread.;)
I bash any peoples beliefs all i want, if those beliefs are nothing else then religion then neither i or they have to worry about anything, right?
They might not have anything to worry about, but it's just down right stupid, pointless, and aggrevating to insult someone elses beliefs and opinions without reason and evidence. You have no evidence against any religion, just as no religion has real hard true evidence to argue for their beliefs.(hence why it is religion:rolleyes: ) If we all lived by doppel's idea of bashing whatever we felt like then I could go off on a person's beliefs, general life, and how they act or post, but as a general rule (and the fact that it would be slanderous if I did) of being polite and respecting your thoughts, I don't. (except maybe a little bit right there...)
I would hope that you might think the same, but some seem more interested in attempting to anger anyone who posts something that partially disagrees with your views; whether they have a purpose to do so or not.
My last thoughts on scientology... It's a religion that may have some extremist views, but a religion nonetheless. I myself agree with some parts and find it an interesting view. If people are willing to pay these 'required donations' then apparently they are getting something out of it, unless they are being forced to pay. (that's kinda unlikely) Whether this religion has committed bad acts I can't tell, but each type or organized religion has committed its own bad acts, whether through its rules or its zealous actions, so I don't know why I would expect this one to be any different.
You can disagree with what I say or with this religion as much as you want, but your not going to change what I think or the fact that this religion exists by sitting behind your computer and typing hate/anger-filled unproven unsupported biased posts. (bet you already knew that though :rolleyes: )
(I use 'you' and 'your' as a general term in most parts of this thread, it's not directed at anyone but the reader. It's a habit i got into somewhere and haven't gotten straight yet, sorry if it confused anyone)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only once they understand will they know what the truth really is.
This is my Tale.
Try making your own Leap Of Faith... You might save more than just your life.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
If we are going to discuss religion, there is a thread that is called religion, go there and continue it.
As for this whole thread about Scientology, I don't think we need a post open specifically to bash a group of people's beliefs. At the rate this is going it's going to become a flamefest. Unless someone can get this thread back on a descent trail of scientology, I suggest this thread is closed.
That was my take on scientology, since it is a religion. That is my belief, take it or leave it.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
Its about closing time, ehh? I mean really how long can this silly conversation go on? "I disagree with scientology", "I disagree with your disagreement", "well I disagree with your disagreement towards my disagreement".....
I'm gonna step out of this conversation. Phrozen is defending the hatred of Enlyth, Doppelganger is jumping on me as well, and I don't believe in Scientology. I am not committed to it, I just feel an obligation to keep this balanced and offer something other than hatred and intolerance for anyone that has no idea about Scientology.
And also, I'm quite disappointed in all you who will close your eyes to the good Scientology is actually doing, and instead hop on with the rest of these haters. If it was so evil, and so apparent, then why are they growing? Why are people seeing this as a good thing? Instead of trying to keep the conversation balanced and orderly, you all jump on one side of the scale. I'll let this become a "Bash Scientology" thread, because thats all it is.
Thats a oxymoron, religion didn't just "came down from the heavens", religion is a manmade thing/idea/concept so nomatter how you twist or stretch it religion is inherently "bad" if its the people that are "bad".
That is where you and most other people disagree. Even if religion was a man made construct, it still doesn't make it bad. You are closing your eyes to the social aspects that have been integral to the formation and development of society. You can't just take the bad and throw away the good.
Religion is like politics without compromisations, religion is like politics without debate, religion is like politics without views based on actual reasoning and logical thinking processes, religion is like politics in a undemocratical system, politics isn't a set thing and it is in constant motion unlike religion wich presumes itself to be directly "from god" wich means it can never change because then "god" would have been wrong, so no, religion is far worse then politics.
Ever heard of schisms and sects? That's politics in relgion at work. Politics in religion is the same as politics anywhere.
And thats the naivity i'm talking about, i know believing in something that would give a reasurement is the easy way out, i am far to hardheaded and i could never set aside what i know for what is easy. Call me sadomasichist for not doing so.
Naivety is just as evident in you assuming that anyone who follows religion is taking the easy way out. Believing in something else is not a sign of weakness.
I could start in on semantics, the number of things i see wrong in these posts, and become Doppel's favorite strawman, but I think I'm going to follow Carloseus' lead and drop out. Go ahead and bash Scientology all you want, all I was trying to do was be the middle man, (seems I do that alot) but no one seems interested in giving something new a chance or seeing a different point of view than the views that they are set in.
Well the people that truly believe in their religion just wait for me to go to hell, and i don't believe in hell.
That really made me laugh, I didn't really think of it like that, ahahahahah. Thanks for the good laugh Doppel.
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Only once they understand will they know what the truth really is.
This is my Tale.
Try making your own Leap Of Faith... You might save more than just your life.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
stfu up everyone, who in here really gives a shit about whats happening with religion nowadays anways. Your all just bickering like wash women out of boredom, we need somthing to unite us godamnit, a game that we can all play and just have fun, and not worry about all this.
(I nominate Mythos)
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Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
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I put 'cult' in the '' things cause I think that any religion is a form of a cult. A cult is merely a religion or belief that is currently unaccepted by the mass majority of people, thus making it unpopular, therefore the religion gets the negative belief term 'cult' attached to it. The Protestant church was considered a cult when it was first made, now it is a full-fledged religion with sub-religions under it. (just throwing that in so we may stop using this 'cult' term, I just feel it is an unjustified and biased word)
Simple fact of the matter though, people will always believe what they want to until they have hard actual fact. I believe in the Bible because that's what feel right TO ME. Some people would choose to believe in this scientology because it makes them feel better or it just seems right TO THEM. Even if you think the happiness it gives is false and all that it says are lies, to those people that believe in it, it's real.
As for the expensive required donations... I'm not sure who to believe, whether Carloseus is right (which if he is, this faith doesn't sound all that bad) or if Enlyth is right. Carloseus is at least basing his thoughts off an experience he has had or experiences that his father has had. Enlyth is basing his information from things he has found on the internet, (so is my understanding) which is fine, but the problem with the internet is that it is going to be as biased about this religion as the media is. It's called card stacking, a type of propaganda and persuasive argument. They are only going to show one side of the issue and ignore the other.
In any case, every religion has what can nearly be considered a required donation. If you don't donate when you go to church then you are quite frowned upon. I remember reading somewhere that no matter what church you belong to, the suggested donation is somewhere around 10% of your weekly paycheck. (if you go each week) Not to mention the fact that (at least in America) churches and religious owned lands are tax-free, meaning that we all pay for their property taxes with our taxes.
So before you go bashing one religion for actually being blunt and asking for the money upfront, you should probably think about a number of others that make you feel guilty if you don't pay.
This is my Tale.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
This whole thread was made in order to tie Scientology up a tree and let everyone wack it. The minute someone tries to balance the conversation by offering insight and open-mindedness, I get this, and it will get worse.
And maybe the reason I defend it so much is what it did for me. Some of you know of my childhood in school, I have no idea where I would be if my parents would have broken up and not having a solid family there for me, or if my dad did not make the changes he made. It made him a better man, a better father, and I owe everything to him. Scientology is partially responsible for the person I am today, it kept my world from falling apart. There is nothing in the world that can do something so great and be a percentage of the evil you frame it to be. Read some books, open your mind some more, and maybe learn to accept others.
That's off Wikipedia. Don't worry, I read most of the other stuff that was said there, but here's a really good example of what they have to deal with.
The Internet is not going to be as biased as the media is. In fact, if the media was biased, I would go to the net straight away, because only there would you be able to find all views of a case reflected.
Of course, an individual site in itself will be biased, but the political correctness that courses through the regular media would not be as existent if you look on the net as a whole.
The difference being that a church, if you are correct, would like a percentage. The highest costing courses within the Scientology-church costs a set amount of money; hundreds of thousands of dollars in the end
And you are not clearly biased?
I could say the same about Scientologists rejecting mind-altering drugs. They offer no real evidence either.
Probably.
But sometimes the reason people join a religion is because they believe it can help them with whatever problems they have. When you believe that everything happens for a reason, and your life is in "god's hands" it makes life a lot less stressful. So if people believe that they can seek refuge through scientology then I am completely fine with it and wont criticize either way.
As for this whole thread about Scientology, I don't think we need a post open specifically to bash a group of people's beliefs. At the rate this is going it's going to become a flamefest. Unless someone can get this thread back on a descent trail of scientology, I suggest this thread is closed.
This is my Tale.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
You know, we need to set this straight. Religion has been used as an excuse for war, but it is the people and their actions that make war happen and not religion.
Do you believe in politics? These cause more wars than religion in this day and age now that religion has been separated from the state in many nations.
In this case Scientology is a belief that allows people to cope with life and death and is not inherently bad. People within Scientology may have done bad things, but then so have people in every other religion and some who aren't religious. If you need an example of non religious people doing bad things then it won't take long to demonstrate some catastrophic events in China and Russia.
:confused:
Sorry, but I thought I said scientology is a religion. That's why i suggested moving it to the religion thread.;)
They might not have anything to worry about, but it's just down right stupid, pointless, and aggrevating to insult someone elses beliefs and opinions without reason and evidence. You have no evidence against any religion, just as no religion has real hard true evidence to argue for their beliefs.(hence why it is religion:rolleyes: ) If we all lived by doppel's idea of bashing whatever we felt like then I could go off on a person's beliefs, general life, and how they act or post, but as a general rule (and the fact that it would be slanderous if I did) of being polite and respecting your thoughts, I don't. (except maybe a little bit right there...)
I would hope that you might think the same, but some seem more interested in attempting to anger anyone who posts something that partially disagrees with your views; whether they have a purpose to do so or not.
My last thoughts on scientology... It's a religion that may have some extremist views, but a religion nonetheless. I myself agree with some parts and find it an interesting view. If people are willing to pay these 'required donations' then apparently they are getting something out of it, unless they are being forced to pay. (that's kinda unlikely) Whether this religion has committed bad acts I can't tell, but each type or organized religion has committed its own bad acts, whether through its rules or its zealous actions, so I don't know why I would expect this one to be any different.
You can disagree with what I say or with this religion as much as you want, but your not going to change what I think or the fact that this religion exists by sitting behind your computer and typing hate/anger-filled unproven unsupported biased posts. (bet you already knew that though :rolleyes: )
(I use 'you' and 'your' as a general term in most parts of this thread, it's not directed at anyone but the reader. It's a habit i got into somewhere and haven't gotten straight yet, sorry if it confused anyone)
This is my Tale.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
That was my take on scientology, since it is a religion. That is my belief, take it or leave it.
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
And also, I'm quite disappointed in all you who will close your eyes to the good Scientology is actually doing, and instead hop on with the rest of these haters. If it was so evil, and so apparent, then why are they growing? Why are people seeing this as a good thing? Instead of trying to keep the conversation balanced and orderly, you all jump on one side of the scale. I'll let this become a "Bash Scientology" thread, because thats all it is.
That is where you and most other people disagree. Even if religion was a man made construct, it still doesn't make it bad. You are closing your eyes to the social aspects that have been integral to the formation and development of society. You can't just take the bad and throw away the good.
Ever heard of schisms and sects? That's politics in relgion at work. Politics in religion is the same as politics anywhere.
Naivety is just as evident in you assuming that anyone who follows religion is taking the easy way out. Believing in something else is not a sign of weakness.
That really made me laugh, I didn't really think of it like that, ahahahahah. Thanks for the good laugh Doppel.
This is my Tale.
Strawman? Not so much anymore, I'm just stating my opinion.
(I nominate Mythos)
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.