Yeah, I still firmly believe we have the physical and mental capacity to choice between to things, two ideals, etc. It's in the nature of Boolean values- 0 and 1, or 1 and 2, or true and false, and that is essentially what our brains are, glorified systems of checks and balances continually analyzing data provided to the body via the nervous system on that basis (subconscious and otherwise.) To say we don't have a choice in doing anything is kind of dumb in my opinion, then. Sure, certain chemical and hormonal imbalances can make decisions harder on some people, but the choice is still able to be made independent of negative (or positive) stimuli, as determined by one's a priori moral values.
Like instinct, for example. People have sex. It has good and bad uses (rape comes to mind.) Did the rapist have a choice? I say yes because I don't go around raping people everytime I get a boner. Now, may certain chemical flaws (or rather, differences) in said rapist have made it harder for him/her to resist said urge? Yes. But to completely abandon free will as a discerning force (rather than a driving force, which I believe is the stimulus- the chemicals, hormones, actual events, etc.) is to impose anarchy in government, and we can't afford that if we want to live together. We can't afford to have everyone excused on the basis of chemical and hormonal imbalances.
Which is why I sometimes wonder if ignorance for the good of the people is a good thing or not.
If we assume I'm wrong and there actually is no capacity for true free will, would we be able to make ourselves ignorant of that truth to prolong the life of organized society? People cannot survive alone, we need each other. It's been proven psychologically and scientifically. But we cannot live together if every law and rule is upturned on the basis stated previously. Kind of get what I mean?
Yeah, I still firmly believe we have the physical and mental capacity to choice between to things, two ideals, etc. It's in the nature of Boolean values- 0 and 1, or 1 and 2, or true and false, and that is essentially what our brains are, glorified systems of checks and balances continually analyzing data provided to the body via the nervous system on that basis (subconscious and otherwise.) To say we don't have a choice in doing anything is kind of dumb in my opinion, then. Sure, certain chemical and hormonal imbalances can make decisions harder on some people, but the choice is still able to be made independent of negative (or positive) stimuli, as determined by one's a priori moral values.
Like instinct, for example. People have sex. It has good and bad uses (rape comes to mind.) Did the rapist have a choice? I say yes because I don't go around raping people everytime I get a boner. Now, may certain chemical flaws (or rather, differences) in said rapist have made it harder for him/her to resist said urge? Yes. But to completely abandon free will as a discerning force (rather than a driving force, which I believe is the stimulus- the chemicals, hormones, actual events, etc.) is to impose anarchy in government, and we can't afford that if we want to live together. We can't afford to have everyone excused on the basis of chemical and hormonal imbalances.
Which is why I sometimes wonder if ignorance for the good of the people is a good thing or not.
If we assume I'm wrong and there actually is no capacity for true free will, would we be able to make ourselves ignorant of that truth to prolong the life of organized society? People cannot survive alone, we need each other. It's been proven psychologically and scientifically. But we cannot live together if every law and rule is upturned on the basis stated previously. Kind of get what I mean?
I just wonder about that sometimes.
Definitely. Along with the system of checks and balances thing...Ya know how sometimes you make a decision not really based on anything? You are given two choices to do something and you choose one randomly. The fact that we have the ability to make a decision just for choosing's sake to me means that we have the capacity to make decisions.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Yeah, I still firmly believe we have the physical and mental capacity to choice between to things, two ideals, etc. It's in the nature of Boolean values- 0 and 1, or 1 and 2, or true and false, and that is essentially what our brains are, glorified systems of checks and balances continually analyzing data provided to the body via the nervous system on that basis (subconscious and otherwise.) To say we don't have a choice in doing anything is kind of dumb in my opinion, then. Sure, certain chemical and hormonal imbalances can make decisions harder on some people, but the choice is still able to be made independent of negative (or positive) stimuli, as determined by one's a priori moral values.
Like instinct, for example. People have sex. It has good and bad uses (rape comes to mind.) Did the rapist have a choice? I say yes because I don't go around raping people everytime I get a boner. Now, may certain chemical flaws (or rather, differences) in said rapist have made it harder for him/her to resist said urge? Yes. But to completely abandon free will as a discerning force (rather than a driving force, which I believe is the stimulus- the chemicals, hormones, actual events, etc.) is to impose anarchy in government, and we can't afford that if we want to live together. We can't afford to have everyone excused on the basis of chemical and hormonal imbalances.
Which is why I sometimes wonder if ignorance for the good of the people is a good thing or not.
If we assume I'm wrong and there actually is no capacity for true free will, would we be able to make ourselves ignorant of that truth to prolong the life of organized society? People cannot survive alone, we need each other. It's been proven psychologically and scientifically. But we cannot live together if every law and rule is upturned on the basis stated previously. Kind of get what I mean?
I just wonder about that sometimes.
Then wars will truly be fought with viruses, if a virus can make a hard drive crash then it can make an artificial brain crash. If a virus can control a computer, then it can control an artificial brain. Kind of a horrifying thought isn't it?
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but it's so true. Very true- in a frightening way. But how much different is that from what's already happening? Governments force children to attend schools and force them to learn what the government provides. The government only feeds children what it wants them to believe. Instant brainwashing. Instant closed-minded-thinking slaves.
I think the only difference is that computerized brains would have limitless power- well, their only limits would be the amount of power attached to them. Nuclear weapons silos, biochemical weapons, armies of people of the millions- actually, why not billions? By that point we could just make people and consciousnesses. Trillions. The only limit would be the material ready on the physical plane. It would basically be the war of gods.
It sounds like people are refusing to give up their accepted notion of free will. I for one, believe that everything in the universe is governed by the laws of physics, including the human body. I believe that if some scientist were smart enough and knew every position and destination of every atom in the universe, they could completely and unconditionally know the future of everything. This includes human interaction. The human psyche is just a much more complicated system than perhaps what we see in planetary orbits or mathematical equations. Our brain does operate in 0's and 1's (although there are thousands if not millions of these happening every minute), and I believe that they are predictable. We live in a deterministic state whether we like it or not. You will react a certain way to a certain scenario because of your previous history and because of your current physiology. Free will is a theory that can not be justified as there is no such thing as choice without bias.
It is comforting to think that we are in control of our own destiny, but the more you delve deeper into the understanding of the human mind and philosophy, the more you realize you are helpless in the battle for what we desire most. I say accept it. Accept our physiology and do what we are evolutionarily designed to do. Meet women, have fun, become what you want to be. There is nothing holding you back but yourself, and if you have this attitude then you will achieve greatness.
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
It sounds like people are refusing to give up their accepted notion of free will. I for one, believe that everything in the universe is governed by the laws of physics, including the human body. I believe that if some scientist were smart enough and knew every position and destination of every atom in the universe, they could completely and unconditionally know the future of everything. This includes human interaction. The human psyche is just a much more complicated system than perhaps what we see in planetary orbits or mathematical equations. Our brain does operate in 0's and 1's (although there are thousands if not millions of these happening every minute), and I believe that they are predictable. We live in a deterministic state whether we like it or not. You will react a certain way to a certain scenario because of your previous history and because of your current physiology. Free will is a theory that can not be justified as there is no such thing as choice without bias.
It is comforting to think that we are in control of our own destiny, but the more you delve deeper into the understanding of the human mind and philosophy, the more you realize you are helpless in the battle for what we desire most. I say accept it. Accept our physiology and do what we are evolutionarily designed to do. Meet women, have fun, become what you want to be. There is nothing holding you back but yourself, and if you have this attitude then you will achieve greatness.
Dude, your theory is not backed. It is very cool but has no backing at all lol. I've studied philosophy and physics and humans still have free will. You cant know the future because you cant govern chance. Chance and random selection are two variables you cant control.
And yes there IS choice without bias, its called random selection! IT really sounds like you are just making this up as you go. I dont know many academically acknowledged men that would consider this at all without a chuckle.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Well, whatever. I have read books on this sort of thing and took philosophy last year in university. Humans are kinda like super complex machines, and of course our technology is far too low right now to completely predict their reactions. This theory is backed, it's called determinism, you should research it for your better knowledge. Most people agree, even my professors, that we do live in a deterministic universe (in fact, it wasn't even discussed much in my philosophy class, but accepted as true and the consequences were discussed).
This shouldn't be too surprising, nothing just happens because, or from random chance. If scientists can predict everything from motion of planets, motions of particles, and actions of small cellular organisms, then why are we special? (The concept of being able to predict something is key because it means that there is no choice/free will, or that decision was determined long before the choice was apparent.)
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
Well, whatever. I have read books on this sort of thing and took philosophy last year in university. Humans are kinda like super complex machines, and of course our technology is far too low right now to completely predict their reactions. This theory is backed, it's called determinism, you should research it for your better knowledge. Most people agree, even my professors, that we do live in a deterministic universe (in fact, it wasn't even discussed much in my philosophy class, but accepted as true and the consequences were discussed).
This shouldn't be too surprising, nothing just happens because, or from random chance. If scientists can predict everything from motion of planets, motions of particles, and actions of small cellular organisms, then why are we special? (The concept of being able to predict something is key because it means that there is no choice/free will, or that decision was determined long before the choice was apparent.)
What your describing is HARD determinism, not just determinism. Determinism and free will can exist, but the other view of hard determinism is what you talked about, where we have no free will e.t.c
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
What your describing is HARD determinism, not just determinism. Determinism and free will can exist, but the other view of hard determinism is what you talked about, where we have no free will e.t.c
I suppose it depends on one's definition of 'free will'. Obviously no person here is blocked by psychological, societal, or social constraints to the point where they cannot make their own decisions. However, every choice is made for a reason, all effects come from a cause, and all effects become causes in the future.
It is still 'you' that decides everything, and there is no divine force that causes us to do things. But because the world is deterministic, there is no randomness. Everything will react exactly and consistently if enough information is known. This is why I say there is no true free will. It doesn't matter to me how hard the type of determinism you are talking about is, there is one underlying principle which all share that makes our universe what it is.
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
It is still 'you' that decides everything, and there is no divine force that causes us to do things. But because the world is deterministic, there is no randomness. Everything will react exactly and consistently if enough information is known. This is why I say there is no true free will. It doesn't matter to me how hard the type of determinism you are talking about is, there is one underlying principle which all share that makes our universe what it is.
I don't know if that can be universally agreed upon. The world would appear to be deterministic, just as the world would appear to be Newtonian. But I'm not so sure that holds true on the atomic level, just as Newtonian mechanics don't work in the extremes of the Universe. An example would be electron movements. From what I understand, that movement is random without the need for any cause to make it move. If electron movement can then affect other particles, the world couldn't be entirely deterministic.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
I don't know if that can be universally agreed upon. The world would appear to be deterministic, just as the world would appear to be Newtonian. But I'm not so sure that holds true on the atomic level, just as Newtonian mechanics don't work in the extremes of the Universe. An example would be electron movements. From what I understand, that movement is random without the need for any cause to make it move. If electron movement can then affect other particles, the world couldn't be entirely deterministic.
That is somewhat true, but it hasn't been shown that electron movements are random. Indeed it is much stranger than this. Moving electrons are like waves, and the actual electron has a probability to be at any point on the wave, with a greater probability in the center and less towards the outside. Also there is an inverse relationship to being able to calculate the whereabouts and destination of an electron at a given time. The closer someone comes to finding one, the further away the other slips.
I suppose it depends on one's definition of 'free will'. Obviously no person here is blocked by psychological, societal, or social constraints to the point where they cannot make their own decisions. However, every choice is made for a reason, all effects come from a cause, and all effects become causes in the future.
It is still 'you' that decides everything, and there is no divine force that causes us to do things. But because the world is deterministic, there is no randomness. Everything will react exactly and consistently if enough information is known. This is why I say there is no true free will. It doesn't matter to me how hard the type of determinism you are talking about is, there is one underlying principle which all share that makes our universe what it is.
You do realize it is only a theoretical philosophy and not fact right? But if it were to be right and there was a predictable future based on past actions then a question raises.... If everything follows the laws of the universe so precisely, where did those laws come from? Why do the electrons have a set path? What stops matter from going berserk? IF it were to be a divine being then everything would happen based on a specific creator and determinism would be an extension of that being...
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You do realize it is only a theoretical philosophy and not fact right? But if it were to be right and there was a predictable future based on past actions then a question raises.... If everything follows the laws of the universe so precisely, where did those laws come from? Why do the electrons have a set path? What stops matter from going berserk? IF it were to be a divine being then everything would happen based on a specific creator and determinism would be an extension of that being...
:confused:
Who knows. These questions are unanswerable as of now. There is still a lot to be learned, and because of that many theories can not be proved. But because some theories can not be proved (like determinism, gravity, evolution, relativity), we shouldn't not accept them. We should hesitantly embrace them if there is enough evidence behind them and they seem logically accurate and work with them, until something better arrives.
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---- And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew! ----
:confused:
Who knows. These questions are unanswerable as of now. There is still a lot to be learned, and because of that many theories can not be proved. But because some theories can not be proved (like determinism, gravity, evolution, relativity), we shouldn't not accept them. We should hesitantly embrace them if there is enough evidence behind them and they seem logically accurate and work with them, until something better arrives.
Something like that, i wouldn't necessarily say EMBRACE though lol
And i guess we will have to slowly die first to find out lol
See? The off topic parts always get back on topic!
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
True story, a few weeks back my wife wanted me to pick up some ‘Jolly Time‘ micro-wave pop-corn, their product is called ‘Blast-O-Butter’. I had a marks-a-lot pen with me. The Calvin in me couldn’t resist. I took my marker and blacked out the ‘er’ on the end of the name and put the box back on the shelf in plain site for all to see. Worse, I had my 11 year old with me and he loved it, I guess I’m incorrigible at 42.
You might think I’m a derelict yet to my amazement some how I managed to get a good skill set in IT and make a reasonable living, my age simply gives me the wisdom to be very grateful to be working in today’s market. Some how I found a wife to love me, agree to have a child with me and a dog we all enjoy kicking every day (I jest).
the thing is point of perspective..when you are old, your mind changes..u dont have urges to do things like u have now..the human body and mind are synkronized in aging so u will be ok about beeing old
When are my urges going to end? I haven't had that happen yet. When I was in my 20's I had people in their 40's tell me my sex drive would go down, I'm still waiting for that action to happen too, uh I don't think so. When I'm 80 I expect the coffee girl at Starbuck's to tell me I'm a dirty old man. I'll let her know she would have loved me when I was a dirty young man.
In fact the only thing that has changed in 42 years is I think a little more about the impact I have on other people around me, so I'm a little more thoughtful these days and my ego doesn't get bruised as easily.
Death is a mysterious things. There are times when I would accept it and times I wouldent. I would die for others but I dont want to just fall out of the blue and croak. I would not like to live forever though It would be a weird unsatisfying life to live for 5 thousand years.
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www.myspace.com/mpotatoes for all your Trans Siberian Orchestra listening pleasure
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Like instinct, for example. People have sex. It has good and bad uses (rape comes to mind.) Did the rapist have a choice? I say yes because I don't go around raping people everytime I get a boner. Now, may certain chemical flaws (or rather, differences) in said rapist have made it harder for him/her to resist said urge? Yes. But to completely abandon free will as a discerning force (rather than a driving force, which I believe is the stimulus- the chemicals, hormones, actual events, etc.) is to impose anarchy in government, and we can't afford that if we want to live together. We can't afford to have everyone excused on the basis of chemical and hormonal imbalances.
Which is why I sometimes wonder if ignorance for the good of the people is a good thing or not.
If we assume I'm wrong and there actually is no capacity for true free will, would we be able to make ourselves ignorant of that truth to prolong the life of organized society? People cannot survive alone, we need each other. It's been proven psychologically and scientifically. But we cannot live together if every law and rule is upturned on the basis stated previously. Kind of get what I mean?
I just wonder about that sometimes.
Definitely. Along with the system of checks and balances thing...Ya know how sometimes you make a decision not really based on anything? You are given two choices to do something and you choose one randomly. The fact that we have the ability to make a decision just for choosing's sake to me means that we have the capacity to make decisions.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
I think the only difference is that computerized brains would have limitless power- well, their only limits would be the amount of power attached to them. Nuclear weapons silos, biochemical weapons, armies of people of the millions- actually, why not billions? By that point we could just make people and consciousnesses. Trillions. The only limit would be the material ready on the physical plane. It would basically be the war of gods.
It is comforting to think that we are in control of our own destiny, but the more you delve deeper into the understanding of the human mind and philosophy, the more you realize you are helpless in the battle for what we desire most. I say accept it. Accept our physiology and do what we are evolutionarily designed to do. Meet women, have fun, become what you want to be. There is nothing holding you back but yourself, and if you have this attitude then you will achieve greatness.
Dude, your theory is not backed. It is very cool but has no backing at all lol. I've studied philosophy and physics and humans still have free will. You cant know the future because you cant govern chance. Chance and random selection are two variables you cant control.
And yes there IS choice without bias, its called random selection! IT really sounds like you are just making this up as you go. I dont know many academically acknowledged men that would consider this at all without a chuckle.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
This shouldn't be too surprising, nothing just happens because, or from random chance. If scientists can predict everything from motion of planets, motions of particles, and actions of small cellular organisms, then why are we special? (The concept of being able to predict something is key because it means that there is no choice/free will, or that decision was determined long before the choice was apparent.)
What your describing is HARD determinism, not just determinism. Determinism and free will can exist, but the other view of hard determinism is what you talked about, where we have no free will e.t.c
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
It is still 'you' that decides everything, and there is no divine force that causes us to do things. But because the world is deterministic, there is no randomness. Everything will react exactly and consistently if enough information is known. This is why I say there is no true free will. It doesn't matter to me how hard the type of determinism you are talking about is, there is one underlying principle which all share that makes our universe what it is.
That is somewhat true, but it hasn't been shown that electron movements are random. Indeed it is much stranger than this. Moving electrons are like waves, and the actual electron has a probability to be at any point on the wave, with a greater probability in the center and less towards the outside. Also there is an inverse relationship to being able to calculate the whereabouts and destination of an electron at a given time. The closer someone comes to finding one, the further away the other slips.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=double+slit+experiment&emb=0&aq=0&oq=double+slit+ex#
But as far as science can tell, none of this has seemed to have any impact on the world beyond the sub atomic level.
You do realize it is only a theoretical philosophy and not fact right? But if it were to be right and there was a predictable future based on past actions then a question raises.... If everything follows the laws of the universe so precisely, where did those laws come from? Why do the electrons have a set path? What stops matter from going berserk? IF it were to be a divine being then everything would happen based on a specific creator and determinism would be an extension of that being...
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Who knows. These questions are unanswerable as of now. There is still a lot to be learned, and because of that many theories can not be proved. But because some theories can not be proved (like determinism, gravity, evolution, relativity), we shouldn't not accept them. We should hesitantly embrace them if there is enough evidence behind them and they seem logically accurate and work with them, until something better arrives.
Something like that, i wouldn't necessarily say EMBRACE though lol
And i guess we will have to slowly die first to find out lol
See? The off topic parts always get back on topic!
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You might think I’m a derelict yet to my amazement some how I managed to get a good skill set in IT and make a reasonable living, my age simply gives me the wisdom to be very grateful to be working in today’s market. Some how I found a wife to love me, agree to have a child with me and a dog we all enjoy kicking every day (I jest).
Now wheres the cake? Hoo Haa!
When are my urges going to end? I haven't had that happen yet. When I was in my 20's I had people in their 40's tell me my sex drive would go down, I'm still waiting for that action to happen too, uh I don't think so. When I'm 80 I expect the coffee girl at Starbuck's to tell me I'm a dirty old man. I'll let her know she would have loved me when I was a dirty young man.
In fact the only thing that has changed in 42 years is I think a little more about the impact I have on other people around me, so I'm a little more thoughtful these days and my ego doesn't get bruised as easily.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."