Just seems like you're taking advantage of her naivety at that point. She's barely an adult, and people do a lot of growing up from the age of 18-25 and he's robbing that of her. Seems sort of selfish. Also, why can he not find someone within his age range?
I have never dated anyone younger than me. I find most people my age are way behind me or are just plain unattractive to me for some other reason. I've only ever dated older women or girls my age.
That said, this really has nothing to do with the number of years they've been here. I would go a year or two younger if I found someone that I thought would actually work with me. I see nothing wrong with a 17 year old & a 19 year old if they're mentally & emotionally at the same place (more or less). This is what I mean by it doesn't matter to me.
Of course there are limits. I'm not going to date a 5 year old .
For me the age "range" would be from 21 up to 5 years older than me (27+5 = 32 right now).
My backup is also 5 years older than me, if not married when i'm 30 we will
Just seems like you're taking advantage of her naivety at that point. She's barely an adult, and people do a lot of growing up from the age of 18-25 and he's robbing that of her. Seems sort of selfish. Also, why can he not find someone within his age range?
Selfish? From whose point of view? From those guys her age range having less pussy?
There's no witchcraft in here. Two consenting adults having a healthy relationship because they can strongly connect is anything but selfish.
Yes it does. Back at the beginning of this millennium I felt hopelessly in love (or just had a serious crush) with a daughter of my (now former) friend, who ran a record shop at that period of time. The girl in question used to work/hang around there, and since I used to frequent the store daily, I saw her almost every day. It was sheer hell. But I did what any sensible grown-up would do: I stopped visiting the record store and dumped my friend. It was the only option I could think of. If I had continued to be in contact with him, I couldn't have avoided stumbling upon her daughter as well...
The girl was about sixteen, and I was already thirty. And that equation just won't work in the long run.
But the other way around, the age question isn't an issue for myself. I am already 41, but I do like older women.
A 30 year old falling for a 16 year old is just..really odd.
She thought we made out a lot, when in reality I saw her twice a week and we'd kiss a total of 5 minutes. I think she was looking for a gay friend, or something, what with her asking me talk with her more even though we'd talk like 6 hours every day.
^ This is exactly what I am talking about Meph. You are relating your relationship to how much you guys made out. Most women (I am talking in general and understand that everyone has their own likes/dislikes whatever) do not measure their relationship by this. You think she wants a gay friend because she would rather talk than make out. This is the exact "immaturity" that she was referring to. For women, talking and sharing experiences and emotions is much more mature than kissing and having sex. This is what she was looking for in a relationship. The fact that you did not understand that makes you immature to her.
Again, I am not trying to come off as some relationship expert. However, I have been with my wife for 8 years now and married for six. She is two years older than me so I feel I can share some insight on this matter.
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I work with a guy who is dating/engaged to a woman who is 42. He is 22 and the same age as her oldest son. That to me is creepy. She might as well be dating her son.
As for a slight gap in age, 22-18 is alright. The younger just can't go to the bar with you. When you're talking a 10 year gap say 36-25, there's nothing wrong with that either. IMO.
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MY point wasn't that an 18 year old can't make the decision. My point was their 18, they haven't had time to live out life yet, they've just got out of school. Getting right into a serious relationship and not getting to experience youth because some 30 year old got with you is just selfish of that 30 year old. They had their youth, they should let you have yours. I'm not just talking about partying either, I'm talking about school, socializing, pretty much everything. What a 18 year old does in every day life is completey different from what a 30 year old does.
MY point wasn't that an 18 year old can't make the decision. My point was their 18, they haven't had time to live out life yet, they've just got out of school. Getting right into a serious relationship and not getting to experience youth because some 30 year old got with you is just selfish of that 30 year old. They had their youth, they should let you have yours. I'm not just talking about partying either, I'm talking about school, socializing, pretty much everything. What a 18 year old does in every day life is completey different from what a 30 year old does.
You gotta be kidding me...
You somehow think there is a problem in getting in a serious relationship at the age of 18? That is laughable at best. You have to realize some people know their priorities from quite early on. If they don't want to fuck with half a dozen people and crashing at countless parties before getting serious, it's their choice and you got to respect it.
And what is this 'experiencing youth' about? I really don't understand exactly how different will an 18 and a 30 year old lives' will be either. If she just wants to fuck around, she's entitled to choose a more experienced man. If she wants a more serious relationship, she's also entitled to choose an older guy. It goes both ways here and this somehow is not penetrating your brain.
Exactly what advantage will a guy her age range give her that a 30 year old can't? In the case of 18-30 hook-up, they would surely have to share quite a few similar points or bond pretty well to give the relationship a go.
You are making it sound like the 30 old guy is some kind of evil manipulating predator. lol. It's sad and completely unfounded.
Also, Don's point was not about them being or not being able to make a decision. It was about them being responsible for it.
You learn a lot from relationships with people your age, and to claim you're ready for a serious relationship at 18 is just crazy. Sure you may find someone at 18 and it may work but if you had found them 4 or 5 years down the road things would have went a lot smoother. It has nothing to do with sleeping around.
You learn what you want in a person, what you lack as a person, all sorts of things. If a 30 year old comes along and scoops you up as soon as your ripe you don't get to learn a lot of those lessons. I think you're also missing the part where almost ALL relationships where one person is 18 and the other 8+ years older almost always fail and are usually based on sex. Sure there are exceptions but you're preaching this like it's the rule.
Sure you may find someone at 18 and it may work but if you had found them 4 or 5 years down the road things would have went a lot smoother. It has nothing to do with sleeping around. You learn what you want in a person, what you lack as a person, all sorts of things. If a 30 year old comes along and scoops you up as soon as your ripe you don't get to learn a lot of those lessons.
The 18 year old can just as well learn from her experiences with the 30 year old. And you are wrong- people her age can't teach her anything better. What one learns is ENTIRELY dependent on how one deals with a situation. She can find a person of any age who is an asshole. This is very introspective-focused development which varies according to the person's analytical skills and ability to learn from them. Whether the asshole is 30 or 18, what she should be looking at are the characteristics of the person and her own, along with transpired events that will eventually allow her to learn from them.
I think you're also missing the part where almost ALL relationships where one person is 18 and the other 8+ years older almost always fail and are usually based on sex.Sure there are exceptions but you're preaching this like it's the rule.
I've read something about having +10 years difference in a couple as not being successful on the long term as <10 years difference couples. But I'm pretty sure you've just invented the sex part.
Furthermore this is irrelevant since we are examining a relationship between two people having unknown traits and as such can't base their success or failure on some random statistic. If people were merely considering statistics as guide, none would consider marriage. It is a case-to-case basis centered situation. I am not putting any rules here but only pointing out there is no selfishness whatsoever in a consensual relationship between two adults. Your judgment on that kind of relationship is extremely inaccurate and fallacious.
But I'm pretty sure you've just invented the sex part.
It was a generalization that is mostly true. Go to any highschool and tell me that guys aren't hyped up on testosterone and girls aren't breathing estrogen. The teen years are, historically and genetically, the years of sexual experimentation, and in abundance. Yes, most relationships between those ages are likely based on sex. The vast majority. The overwhelming majority. Hence the generalization. (If I interpreted Dae's response correctly.)
Relationships based on sex are also generally short-lived, since there is no long-term relationship building. Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions don't prove rules.
I generally like girls that are older than me or otherwise seem to act more mature than I do. Maybe I'm compensating for something. Maybe I just like not having to worry about relationship drama. Maybe it's both.
(At OP:) She was/is probably using that premise as an excuse. I guess I see nothing wrong with that. I'd prefer someone to just say what they mean, but I know in some cultures (I know it's this way in Turkey), lying--or otherwise not telling the entire truth--is preferred to save face or avoid annoying situations. Just my thoughts.
She thought we made out a lot, when in reality I saw her twice a week and we'd kiss a total of 5 minutes. I think she was looking for a gay friend, or something, what with her asking me talk with her more even though we'd talk like 6 hours every day.
^ This is exactly what I am talking about Meph. You are relating your relationship to how much you guys made out. Most women (I am talking in general and understand that everyone has their own likes/dislikes whatever) do not measure their relationship by this. You think she wants a gay friend because she would rather talk than make out. This is the exact "immaturity" that she was referring to. For women, talking and sharing experiences and emotions is much more mature than kissing and having sex. This is what she was looking for in a relationship. The fact that you did not understand that makes you immature to her.
Again, I am not trying to come off as some relationship expert. However, I have been with my wife for 8 years now and married for six. She is two years older than me so I feel I can share some insight on this matter.
We talked a minimum of 6 hours every single day. If that's still not enough for her, then sure, I'm "immature" for wanting to make out more. That's all I was getting anyway.
It was a generalization that is mostly true. Go to any highschool and tell me that guys aren't hyped up on testosterone and girls aren't breathing estrogen. The teen years are, historically and genetically, the years of sexual experimentation, and in abundance. Yes, most relationships between those ages are likely based on sex. The vast majority. The overwhelming majority. Hence the generalization. (If I interpreted Dae's response correctly.)
Relationships based on sex are also generally short-lived, since there is no long-term relationship building. Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions don't prove rules.
And exactly how is this related to the older guy being selfish? Because it was in that context that the whole discussion was based. Plus Dae said almost all these relationships failed which led me to believe he had access to some studies or statistic which is why I shared my current knowledge on the matter. Since studies and statistics are derivatives of very specific parameters, you cannot just throw 'based on sex' there if it wasn't included in the calculations or correlated with the altered chances of success of relationships.
And it also comes down to studies and statistics not mattering at all, even if what he said was true. Because-
If she wants to do it with an older man, her choice. If she wants a serious relationship with an older man, it's still her choice.
Success or failure remain largely irrelevant considering that both outcomes can be used as a stepping stone in an individual's development.
I never claimed to have access to any sort of studies. I just use my eyes, and around here, it's very rare for such a gap in a relationship to last. I can throw "based on sex" in all I want, I didn't say purely, I said usually. I wasn't being condescending at all I was making observations of things I see on a daily basis and have since I was in high school.
Anyways I've said my part, my opinion isn't going to change yours and vice versa so I'm done posting. Seems like it's getting too personal. This has went from a casual discussion to a super serious debate where you need statistics, studies, and there is no wiggle room for opinion, I don't take part in those.
Please Dae, don't good-day-to-you-sir with me. You are way better than that.
Life's experiences is certainly a valuable tool in shaping one's opinions and I already told you- statistics and studies will not matter anyway. I was only giving you the opportunity to back up your claim since it was a very bold one- stating that almost all these relationships failed and they were based on sex.
But it turns out you are making these extreme generalizations from merely your own limited (since there are numerous factors involved in an unsuccessful relationship)observations.
This is akin to someone who've known a few blacks who were disrespectful to him and just assume most black were disrespectful.
It is the kind of mentality that breeds bigotry, for in our particular case I pretty much refuted all your points where you were somehow making the old guy out to be a selfish fellow. From a serious relationship to a casual fling, no amount of observations and claims added up to why the man was wrong and selfish.
Yet you keep that attitude- it's no longer even an opinion. Good luck with it.
Wow, my opinion is no longer an opinion. Thanks for that.
It's just been in my personal experience aside from a few cases that a 30 year old man wants mainly one thing from an 18 year old girl. Hell to even meet a 18 year old girl you have to go pretty far out of your way usually. Most people communicate with others in their rough age group right?
It was just my observation and opinion that a 30 year old goes into it with a lot of prior knowledge of what they like and what they want as well as how to get it. Where as the 18 year old doesn't have much of that. Hell this started out for me more about different paths in life, such as the 18 year old has plans for school, but meets the 30 year old and decides not to move away to college. Sure it's the 18 year olds choice but I think it's selfish of the 30 year old, they are a little more versed in the ways of the world and to allow someone to hold themselves back for you knowing what they're sacrificing seems selfish.
I dunno living in middle america it's a scenario that plays out all too often here and usually with no good to come of it. Call it bigotry, I'll call it personal experience. Sure I realize not ALL of the relationships are like that, but from what I've seen a good handful are.
Anyways it's become abundantly clear to me that this discussion, many of these discussions quickly become about who is right rather than sharing ideas and viewpoints, and I tend to want to distance myself from that. The moment it gets super logical and one persons opinion is "wrong" I tend to want to distance myself from that. Logic is a good system to believe in, but it doesn't apply to humans. I believe there is always room for opinion and personal interpretation.
@Dae- I think you may have misunderstood me. It is not about who is right or who is wrong. It is about showing your reasoning for it. If there is none, you cannot expect others to understand you and in which case you are right, you should distance yourself as much as you can from such discussions.
Your thinking is rather very unilateral either way. It seems you are blatantly ignoring the existence of gold diggers and all those 18 year olds who are not so saintly.
And again it's always about the older guy who is wrong and selfish and in a consensual relationship to boot.
It is also rather comical to say a 30 year old needs to go out of his way to meet an 18 year old. Not sure where you live but in most places around the world, you can meet another person on a simple jogging route, at a library, in a club or at Zhar's place(Zhar got villas all around the world) during Sunday orgies. I know- this is very strange, and extremely unusual, right?
You are making it sound like all these guys are patiently waiting outside the school doors to pounce.
And if you are so much into taking life at face value, you should be realizing that both parties must be getting advantages(money, sex, love, respect or whatever) out of a relationship to make it happen.
Anyway, I do understand how you've come to think the way you do but I certainly cannot understand why you are generalizing so much from it. Seems very one-sided. You are also right on another point- I will not be changing your mind.
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That said, this really has nothing to do with the number of years they've been here. I would go a year or two younger if I found someone that I thought would actually work with me. I see nothing wrong with a 17 year old & a 19 year old if they're mentally & emotionally at the same place (more or less). This is what I mean by it doesn't matter to me.
Of course there are limits. I'm not going to date a 5 year old .
My backup is also 5 years older than me, if not married when i'm 30 we will
Selfish? From whose point of view? From those guys her age range having less pussy?
There's no witchcraft in here. Two consenting adults having a healthy relationship because they can strongly connect is anything but selfish.
A 30 year old falling for a 16 year old is just..really odd.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
^ This is exactly what I am talking about Meph. You are relating your relationship to how much you guys made out. Most women (I am talking in general and understand that everyone has their own likes/dislikes whatever) do not measure their relationship by this. You think she wants a gay friend because she would rather talk than make out. This is the exact "immaturity" that she was referring to. For women, talking and sharing experiences and emotions is much more mature than kissing and having sex. This is what she was looking for in a relationship. The fact that you did not understand that makes you immature to her.
Again, I am not trying to come off as some relationship expert. However, I have been with my wife for 8 years now and married for six. She is two years older than me so I feel I can share some insight on this matter.
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Ehem.
I work with a guy who is dating/engaged to a woman who is 42. He is 22 and the same age as her oldest son. That to me is creepy. She might as well be dating her son.
As for a slight gap in age, 22-18 is alright. The younger just can't go to the bar with you. When you're talking a 10 year gap say 36-25, there's nothing wrong with that either. IMO.
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You gotta be kidding me...
You somehow think there is a problem in getting in a serious relationship at the age of 18? That is laughable at best. You have to realize some people know their priorities from quite early on. If they don't want to fuck with half a dozen people and crashing at countless parties before getting serious, it's their choice and you got to respect it.
And what is this 'experiencing youth' about? I really don't understand exactly how different will an 18 and a 30 year old lives' will be either. If she just wants to fuck around, she's entitled to choose a more experienced man. If she wants a more serious relationship, she's also entitled to choose an older guy. It goes both ways here and this somehow is not penetrating your brain.
Exactly what advantage will a guy her age range give her that a 30 year old can't? In the case of 18-30 hook-up, they would surely have to share quite a few similar points or bond pretty well to give the relationship a go.
You are making it sound like the 30 old guy is some kind of evil manipulating predator. lol. It's sad and completely unfounded.
Also, Don's point was not about them being or not being able to make a decision. It was about them being responsible for it.
You learn what you want in a person, what you lack as a person, all sorts of things. If a 30 year old comes along and scoops you up as soon as your ripe you don't get to learn a lot of those lessons. I think you're also missing the part where almost ALL relationships where one person is 18 and the other 8+ years older almost always fail and are usually based on sex. Sure there are exceptions but you're preaching this like it's the rule.
The 18 year old can just as well learn from her experiences with the 30 year old. And you are wrong- people her age can't teach her anything better. What one learns is ENTIRELY dependent on how one deals with a situation. She can find a person of any age who is an asshole. This is very introspective-focused development which varies according to the person's analytical skills and ability to learn from them. Whether the asshole is 30 or 18, what she should be looking at are the characteristics of the person and her own, along with transpired events that will eventually allow her to learn from them.
I've read something about having +10 years difference in a couple as not being successful on the long term as <10 years difference couples. But I'm pretty sure you've just invented the sex part.
Furthermore this is irrelevant since we are examining a relationship between two people having unknown traits and as such can't base their success or failure on some random statistic. If people were merely considering statistics as guide, none would consider marriage. It is a case-to-case basis centered situation. I am not putting any rules here but only pointing out there is no selfishness whatsoever in a consensual relationship between two adults. Your judgment on that kind of relationship is extremely inaccurate and fallacious.
Lol.
It was a generalization that is mostly true. Go to any highschool and tell me that guys aren't hyped up on testosterone and girls aren't breathing estrogen. The teen years are, historically and genetically, the years of sexual experimentation, and in abundance. Yes, most relationships between those ages are likely based on sex. The vast majority. The overwhelming majority. Hence the generalization. (If I interpreted Dae's response correctly.)
Relationships based on sex are also generally short-lived, since there is no long-term relationship building. Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions don't prove rules.
I generally like girls that are older than me or otherwise seem to act more mature than I do. Maybe I'm compensating for something. Maybe I just like not having to worry about relationship drama. Maybe it's both.
(At OP:) She was/is probably using that premise as an excuse. I guess I see nothing wrong with that. I'd prefer someone to just say what they mean, but I know in some cultures (I know it's this way in Turkey), lying--or otherwise not telling the entire truth--is preferred to save face or avoid annoying situations. Just my thoughts.
We talked a minimum of 6 hours every single day. If that's still not enough for her, then sure, I'm "immature" for wanting to make out more. That's all I was getting anyway.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
And it also comes down to studies and statistics not mattering at all, even if what he said was true. Because-
If she wants to do it with an older man, her choice. If she wants a serious relationship with an older man, it's still her choice.
Success or failure remain largely irrelevant considering that both outcomes can be used as a stepping stone in an individual's development.
Anyways I've said my part, my opinion isn't going to change yours and vice versa so I'm done posting. Seems like it's getting too personal. This has went from a casual discussion to a super serious debate where you need statistics, studies, and there is no wiggle room for opinion, I don't take part in those.
Good day to you sir.
Life's experiences is certainly a valuable tool in shaping one's opinions and I already told you- statistics and studies will not matter anyway. I was only giving you the opportunity to back up your claim since it was a very bold one- stating that almost all these relationships failed and they were based on sex.
But it turns out you are making these extreme generalizations from merely your own limited (since there are numerous factors involved in an unsuccessful relationship)observations.
This is akin to someone who've known a few blacks who were disrespectful to him and just assume most black were disrespectful.
It is the kind of mentality that breeds bigotry, for in our particular case I pretty much refuted all your points where you were somehow making the old guy out to be a selfish fellow. From a serious relationship to a casual fling, no amount of observations and claims added up to why the man was wrong and selfish.
Yet you keep that attitude- it's no longer even an opinion. Good luck with it.
It's just been in my personal experience aside from a few cases that a 30 year old man wants mainly one thing from an 18 year old girl. Hell to even meet a 18 year old girl you have to go pretty far out of your way usually. Most people communicate with others in their rough age group right?
It was just my observation and opinion that a 30 year old goes into it with a lot of prior knowledge of what they like and what they want as well as how to get it. Where as the 18 year old doesn't have much of that. Hell this started out for me more about different paths in life, such as the 18 year old has plans for school, but meets the 30 year old and decides not to move away to college. Sure it's the 18 year olds choice but I think it's selfish of the 30 year old, they are a little more versed in the ways of the world and to allow someone to hold themselves back for you knowing what they're sacrificing seems selfish.
I dunno living in middle america it's a scenario that plays out all too often here and usually with no good to come of it. Call it bigotry, I'll call it personal experience. Sure I realize not ALL of the relationships are like that, but from what I've seen a good handful are.
Anyways it's become abundantly clear to me that this discussion, many of these discussions quickly become about who is right rather than sharing ideas and viewpoints, and I tend to want to distance myself from that. The moment it gets super logical and one persons opinion is "wrong" I tend to want to distance myself from that. Logic is a good system to believe in, but it doesn't apply to humans. I believe there is always room for opinion and personal interpretation.
Your thinking is rather very unilateral either way. It seems you are blatantly ignoring the existence of gold diggers and all those 18 year olds who are not so saintly.
And again it's always about the older guy who is wrong and selfish and in a consensual relationship to boot.
It is also rather comical to say a 30 year old needs to go out of his way to meet an 18 year old. Not sure where you live but in most places around the world, you can meet another person on a simple jogging route, at a library, in a club or at Zhar's place(Zhar got villas all around the world) during Sunday orgies. I know- this is very strange, and extremely unusual, right?
You are making it sound like all these guys are patiently waiting outside the school doors to pounce.
And if you are so much into taking life at face value, you should be realizing that both parties must be getting advantages(money, sex, love, respect or whatever) out of a relationship to make it happen.
Anyway, I do understand how you've come to think the way you do but I certainly cannot understand why you are generalizing so much from it. Seems very one-sided. You are also right on another point- I will not be changing your mind.