To me the only thing that can be called end game is the end boss and the end area he/she/it is at. You can make random and optional quests/areas more difficult by basing the quality of the monsters on the level of the character. The End Boss should also be based on the character level and maybe even a few levels higher.
You can make the other areas more challenging and have certain biases for certain gear so everyone is not running a certain boss.
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What about the secret cow level (....I mean....what cow level?? :whistling: ) it wasn't "end game" but it was end "difficulty". It wasn't harder than Baal and his minions but I mean, it was an "end game" type mechanic, and I think thats what people are wanting.
It doesn't have to be more difficult but it can offer a different kind of challenge. For instance, the timed dungeon idea, it's the race against time that makes it challenging, not that the monsters are more powerful. It could also just be something fun to do with some friends like the cow level, it was entertaining and had potential to drop some decent stuff.
Although, facing a horde of demons in some randomized event shouldn't be a cake-walk either.
I really do not think the Cow Level is really end game and I for the most part I hate that level. I think it was meant as a joke.
I have nothing against side areas and other content but to me the End Game should be considered the end game and not the other areas surpass it and be called the end game. They can be close to it in means of difficulty and such but the End Boss has to be the toughest and that area has to be the toughest as well.
As for the expansions I would prefer if Diablo is the end boss and not some other Boss. If Diablo is the End Boss in the first release it should be the End Boss for the Expansions. I did not like Baal as the final Boss in D2 since for the most part he was no problem to kill and was a sad excuse for an end boss.
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I understand what you're saying but to me, and maybe I am not alone, end games means what you do "post-main goal" (i.e. after killing the final boss, or after achieving the max level). So having the final boss being end game doesn't really make sense (I know this isn't what you mean, but I am just saying). After the last boss is dead people, myself included, want more goals to strive for.
I am the type of player who likes to have a "main" character that I like to play and not make a new one everytime I finish the main purpose of the game. So, to me, the idea of randomized events that have a low chance of happening and are very challenging is something I wouldn't mind seeing. Like I said in my previous post, it doesn't have to be more powerful than the final boss, but can present new challenges.
Also, I 100% agree about Diablo being the final boss.
Edit:
I think I understand what you are saying if I think of this as being the last Diablo 3(as if there were no expansions). If we didn't know there would be any expansions and this were the last Diablo game, I would want the final boss to be the hardest thing I have ever done.
Buuuut, since I know there is more coming, maybe it is not as big of a deal to me.
I definitely see where you are coming from much more clearly though.
****************************************
So, how would you implement challenges for post-lvl 60 players without taking away from the grand finale of the last boss?
I think the seige and timed dungeon ideas could still work. Just because you have killed the final boss doesn't mean there aren't any more hordes of demons roaming around attacks towns and stuff...or does it?
But to be honest I think they could do it more like Median XL. Where you have lots of challenges to complete that are all very difficult and most are story-derived. I think Diablo 3 could take leaves out of some of the mods for Diablo 2's books.
I can see why someone wouldn't want a time-trial mode, as in Diablo 2 it would mean that everyone would just go around creating light sorcs with map hacks in order to get the achievement. But diablo3 is a different game where it will be more balanced, fair and overall easier to finish hell with any class. So a time trial idea isn't a bad one as long as they don't implement enigma again... And they could even balance the times depending on what class your playing. As the wizard class has teleport, allowing it to dismiss large parts of the dungeon.
Fastest full clear times anyone? Like the den of evil but who can do it fastest?
And I personally am looking forward to being able to create 100s of games in the space of 10 minutes and not be temp banned for it... seeing as bots have it written into their scripts nowadays to delay their creation of games so that they don't get this temp ban anyways.
And for the end game 'events' that could be like a weekend event, but I hope that they keep it in the spirit of the Diablo series. NO valentine events like in WoW please.
Possibly the event could be like the siege of harrogath... except harrogath is actually getting attacked, and monsters are trying to come through the walls and batter them down. If they have destructible environments... well, yeh.
The main thing I want them to do is make it so that these things needs friends to complete them. It's not as much fun unless the game is driven by social interaction. Which is a large part of what Diablo 2 is missing, especially with rushes and so on.
EDIT: I did not know that they had put a male wizard model up on the site yet... O.o kewl.
One of the best ways is having the optional areas and quests be based around the level of the character.
One thing I do not want to see is something that can only be done online on Battle-net. I do not mind that challenge be ramped up based on the number of players playing. That is one thing that made me mad about D2.
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To me the only thing that can be called end game is the end boss and the end area he/she/it is at.
I didn't anticipate a semantic discussion about end game.. but it's a good discussion to have. IMHO Hans, yours is a fairly terse definition of "end game." What I originally meant by "end game" is exactly what thereisnocowlevel said: Stuff to do when your character is at max level, and presumably you've experienced the final boss fight enough times that you're kind of over it. If you never get over it, bonus, additional events won't blow your skirt up. But I personally would feel slighted if there was nothing else to do once maxed than grind existing content.
But getting back to the main purpose of this thread, you're right to point out that these events need not necessarily be exclusive to end-game level characters. Fun for the whole family, etc.
Another event idea:
The wanderer: You get an in-game notification from <some NPC> that a (never-before-seen) plot-related boss is wandering somewhere in <some act>. They'll leave some kind of trail that you can pick up (I've been watching a bunch of manhunter lately). You hunt the baddie through the act, find, kill, lewt.
YET ANOTHER OMFG EVENT IDEA!!
The hidden chamber: NPC tells you some new disturbance in the world has been detected, tied to an act. You pick up clues and find out there seems to be a new, hidden wing in <some place that has wings>. You have to collect artifacts from certain areas and/or bosses in order to assemble a "key" to the chamber. You get access then very bad things happen and you kill enough things until said bad things cease to happen and lewt.
The above events could theoretically apply to characters of any level, provided they have access to the acts in question.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
I really like both of those ideas Dolaiim, keep them coming!!!
What if dungeons could spawn with a random "side level". Say you are in Catacombs lvl 3 there would be a % chance to have "secret door" sub-level, in addition to cata lvl 4, which led to a special mini-boss or maybe a massive ambush or an unguared magical chest...the possibilities are endless.
What if dungeons could spawn with a random "side level". Say you are in Catacombs lvl 3 there would be a % chance to have "secret door" sub-level, in addition to cata lvl 4, which led to a special mini-boss or maybe a massive ambush or an unguared magical chest...the possibilities are endless.
Please select one of the following:
a. like it
b. love it
c. GOTTA HAVE IIIIIITTTTTTT!!!!!!
answer: c
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
So how do you implement the idea above my post while avoinding to rape the lore?
1. Rathma is suddenly on the evil side.
2. Inarius is apparently released and ready to fight for some reason.
3. Lilith returned from her prison, again.
Just a few examples.
Notice, I strategically chose the words "a lot" and "there are a few though"
his/her idea is one of the few that could not be implemented without the raping of the lore
Maybe i'm stepping out of line to say this, but I think the community as a whole may be a tad' bit confused about which genre of game Diablo actually is. "End game" content is a term typically applied to MMORPG's; a genre that the Diablo franchise has never actually been a part of. Technically, there never was an infrastructure setup for end game content in Diablo 1 or 2, because they weren't MMORPGs. People simply chose to stick around because they enjoyed the game that much; even though in reality, they were actually playing through the same content in circles (Wanna' grind Baal for the millionth time, anyone?)Historically, Diablo is actually a standard RPG with a multiplayer component. Because of the high user retention, Diablo gets treated by the community as an MMORPG, even though it isn't.
Now, that doesn't mean Blizzard should just ignore the thriving multiplayer community and make the game as static as Diablo 1 or 2. Blizzard should certainly try and get people to play this next title for just as long, or if not, longer than people played Diablo 2. They can emulate the "end game" experience rather than actually forcing it into a different genre. This kind of RPG is supposed to entertain you as you play through it, after-all. Playing through the Acts' is what was intended to be the meat of the game in the older Diablos. That was what you were supposed to enjoy; the play-through. (It wasn't meant to be a grind.)
In place of an "end game" content dump after the final boss, I propose using a combination of optional side quests and a dynamic act structure that changes depending on the difficulty mode. Basically remove the "end game" from the end and spread it throughout to make a bulkier game instead. For instance, playing through Act 1 on "Nightmare" will mean more than just a higher difficulty. You'll arrive into new mandatory dungeons and environments in "Nightmare" peppered throughout the act with new mobs and bosses. The same would be done for "Hell" so that you build up and up into newer content. When you hit max lvl there would be new optional side-quests for max lvl players only.
It's just that Jay and the team have talked about the "end-game" in Diablo 3. For example, they mentioned how sets will most likely be something you chase in the end-game(refer to this thread).
Also, I believe they have refered to the "end-game" a few other times...I am too lazy to dig up the quotes though.
Even though completely new content, like various dungeon patches with WoW, is more related to MMORPGs, having stuff in place to do once you hit the max level without adding extra content is something that fits very well with any RPG. After all, you had to build your character all the way up until the max level, so of course you want something to do with your power after you've killed the last boss. They've already shown PvP as an endgame (and earlier than that) activity, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't add some more stuff. After all, D2 still has plenty of people playing it after 10 years. Imagine if they just planned a few end game events for the players.
Well actually when I think of it; 'end-game' content is normally at the end of a game, not after it. In WoW the end-game content is still story related content. In WOTLK for example, you reach max level 80 before you actually make it to the end of ICC and face Arthas. ICC was end-game content but was still well within the story-arc. At the end of the day, 'end-game' for WoW is merely the final boss. (I'm not sure about Cataclysm, I've yet to play it.)
Diablo is structured differently than MMORPGs. In Diablo 2 you're able to beat Baal for the first time and conclude the story content waaaay before hitting max level. My views are based on the assumption that this will be possible for Diablo 3 as well. So 'Nightmare' and 'Hell' are outlets created to reach max level, since the game is already complete before you get to that point. I simply figured that recycling the 'Nightmare' and 'Hell' difficulties to have fresh content throughout would be better than playing the exact same thing 3 times in a row with a 'new-content' dump at the end of it all.
Now if you're able to hit max level before beating the final boss like in a MMORPG, It'd be a different story, but since you're going to have to play the game 3 times over to reach max level, why not embed the new content within each difficulty level instead? The game would literally evolve at each difficulty level. For example; in 'Nightmare': (environments would become more threatening in appearance, some completely new dungeons, new mobs, new bosses, etc.) The 'end-game' from a MMORPG perspective would simply be the suped-up final boss with some added flavor at 'Hell' difficulty. They could get 3-times the game without actually making the game 3-times longer.
I think you underestimate the work this would require. I'm all for it, but I just know it deep inside, somehow, that Blizzard will not go that way.
Heck, I'm scared that the difficulty will even include any significant differences at all in the first place besides how its done in D2. New monster attacks, new monster types, maybe new monster strategies, etc...
Ultimately though, its a good idea, have each difficulty much more unique would be great. But even then, I still think there should be something beyond normal-nightmare-hell.
The hidden chamber: NPC tells you some new disturbance in the world has been detected, tied to an act. You pick up clues and find out there seems to be a new, hidden wing in <some place that has wings>. You have to collect artifacts from certain areas and/or bosses in order to assemble a "key" to the chamber. You get access then very bad things happen and you kill enough things until said bad things cease to happen and lewt.
I think Dolaiim's idea is amazing, although I would like to tweak it. Lets say that one major dungeon an act has this system implemented (assumability the last act-ending one with the act's main boss). The boss has a 50% chance of dropping one of 4 key peaces and you take all 4 to an artisan to create the key. In order to keep this more end game oriented it will only be accessible in hell and your artisan has to be max level to create the key. This then opens a new area of the dungeon containing a time trial, siege based challenge, defense mode, unique boss, or whatever.
I think this is a good system because:
-It makes the end game less repeatable so its not the only thing players are doing.
-People who don't want to do the content can sell the key peaces for gold.
-Most of us are going to be farming these bosses anyways, so farming these keys wont be a waste of time.
-Very ignorable for end game naysayers.
I would like to end by saying I don't understand why so many people seem to be obsessed with the end boss being the "hardest part of the game." This has nothing to do with end game content really, seeing how end game is just more to do at high level and in most games is not harder than the final boss. Also lets not forget the newest addition to D2's end game, the Uber bosses are clearly much harder than Baal or Diablo, so people saying hard end game "isnt like diablo" are wrong... Its already in Diablo 2.
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You can make the other areas more challenging and have certain biases for certain gear so everyone is not running a certain boss.
What about the secret cow level (....I mean....what cow level?? :whistling: ) it wasn't "end game" but it was end "difficulty". It wasn't harder than Baal and his minions but I mean, it was an "end game" type mechanic, and I think thats what people are wanting.
It doesn't have to be more difficult but it can offer a different kind of challenge. For instance, the timed dungeon idea, it's the race against time that makes it challenging, not that the monsters are more powerful. It could also just be something fun to do with some friends like the cow level, it was entertaining and had potential to drop some decent stuff.
Although, facing a horde of demons in some randomized event shouldn't be a cake-walk either.
I have nothing against side areas and other content but to me the End Game should be considered the end game and not the other areas surpass it and be called the end game. They can be close to it in means of difficulty and such but the End Boss has to be the toughest and that area has to be the toughest as well.
As for the expansions I would prefer if Diablo is the end boss and not some other Boss. If Diablo is the End Boss in the first release it should be the End Boss for the Expansions. I did not like Baal as the final Boss in D2 since for the most part he was no problem to kill and was a sad excuse for an end boss.
I am the type of player who likes to have a "main" character that I like to play and not make a new one everytime I finish the main purpose of the game. So, to me, the idea of randomized events that have a low chance of happening and are very challenging is something I wouldn't mind seeing. Like I said in my previous post, it doesn't have to be more powerful than the final boss, but can present new challenges.
Also, I 100% agree about Diablo being the final boss.
Edit:
I think I understand what you are saying if I think of this as being the last Diablo 3(as if there were no expansions). If we didn't know there would be any expansions and this were the last Diablo game, I would want the final boss to be the hardest thing I have ever done.
Buuuut, since I know there is more coming, maybe it is not as big of a deal to me.
I definitely see where you are coming from much more clearly though.
****************************************
So, how would you implement challenges for post-lvl 60 players without taking away from the grand finale of the last boss?
I think the seige and timed dungeon ideas could still work. Just because you have killed the final boss doesn't mean there aren't any more hordes of demons roaming around attacks towns and stuff...or does it?
But to be honest I think they could do it more like Median XL. Where you have lots of challenges to complete that are all very difficult and most are story-derived. I think Diablo 3 could take leaves out of some of the mods for Diablo 2's books.
I can see why someone wouldn't want a time-trial mode, as in Diablo 2 it would mean that everyone would just go around creating light sorcs with map hacks in order to get the achievement. But diablo3 is a different game where it will be more balanced, fair and overall easier to finish hell with any class. So a time trial idea isn't a bad one as long as they don't implement enigma again... And they could even balance the times depending on what class your playing. As the wizard class has teleport, allowing it to dismiss large parts of the dungeon.
Fastest full clear times anyone? Like the den of evil but who can do it fastest?
And I personally am looking forward to being able to create 100s of games in the space of 10 minutes and not be temp banned for it... seeing as bots have it written into their scripts nowadays to delay their creation of games so that they don't get this temp ban anyways.
And for the end game 'events' that could be like a weekend event, but I hope that they keep it in the spirit of the Diablo series. NO valentine events like in WoW please.
Possibly the event could be like the siege of harrogath... except harrogath is actually getting attacked, and monsters are trying to come through the walls and batter them down. If they have destructible environments... well, yeh.
The main thing I want them to do is make it so that these things needs friends to complete them. It's not as much fun unless the game is driven by social interaction. Which is a large part of what Diablo 2 is missing, especially with rushes and so on.
EDIT: I did not know that they had put a male wizard model up on the site yet... O.o kewl.
http://us.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/wizard.xml
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
One thing I do not want to see is something that can only be done online on Battle-net. I do not mind that challenge be ramped up based on the number of players playing. That is one thing that made me mad about D2.
I didn't anticipate a semantic discussion about end game.. but it's a good discussion to have. IMHO Hans, yours is a fairly terse definition of "end game." What I originally meant by "end game" is exactly what thereisnocowlevel said: Stuff to do when your character is at max level, and presumably you've experienced the final boss fight enough times that you're kind of over it. If you never get over it, bonus, additional events won't blow your skirt up. But I personally would feel slighted if there was nothing else to do once maxed than grind existing content.
But getting back to the main purpose of this thread, you're right to point out that these events need not necessarily be exclusive to end-game level characters. Fun for the whole family, etc.
Another event idea:
The wanderer: You get an in-game notification from <some NPC> that a (never-before-seen) plot-related boss is wandering somewhere in <some act>. They'll leave some kind of trail that you can pick up (I've been watching a bunch of manhunter lately). You hunt the baddie through the act, find, kill, lewt.
YET ANOTHER OMFG EVENT IDEA!!
The hidden chamber: NPC tells you some new disturbance in the world has been detected, tied to an act. You pick up clues and find out there seems to be a new, hidden wing in <some place that has wings>. You have to collect artifacts from certain areas and/or bosses in order to assemble a "key" to the chamber. You get access then very bad things happen and you kill enough things until said bad things cease to happen and lewt.
The above events could theoretically apply to characters of any level, provided they have access to the acts in question.
-Thomas Jefferson
What if dungeons could spawn with a random "side level". Say you are in Catacombs lvl 3 there would be a % chance to have "secret door" sub-level, in addition to cata lvl 4, which led to a special mini-boss or maybe a massive ambush or an unguared magical chest...the possibilities are endless.
Please select one of the following:
a. like it
b. love it
c. GOTTA HAVE IIIIIITTTTTTT!!!!!!
-Thomas Jefferson
You have Tyreal,along with other guardians, Inarius, vs Diablo, Baal, Mephisto, Rathma, Lilith, and all other mini bosses on huge battlefield...
Example as in Act 5 1st zone where NPC barbarians attacking on way to shenk..
Gonna be fun!
I think a lot of the ideas can be implemented without doing any harm or diverging from the lore, there are a few though...
Notice, I strategically chose the words "a lot" and "there are a few though"
his/her idea is one of the few that could not be implemented without the raping of the lore
Now, that doesn't mean Blizzard should just ignore the thriving multiplayer community and make the game as static as Diablo 1 or 2. Blizzard should certainly try and get people to play this next title for just as long, or if not, longer than people played Diablo 2. They can emulate the "end game" experience rather than actually forcing it into a different genre. This kind of RPG is supposed to entertain you as you play through it, after-all. Playing through the Acts' is what was intended to be the meat of the game in the older Diablos. That was what you were supposed to enjoy; the play-through. (It wasn't meant to be a grind.)
In place of an "end game" content dump after the final boss, I propose using a combination of optional side quests and a dynamic act structure that changes depending on the difficulty mode. Basically remove the "end game" from the end and spread it throughout to make a bulkier game instead. For instance, playing through Act 1 on "Nightmare" will mean more than just a higher difficulty. You'll arrive into new mandatory dungeons and environments in "Nightmare" peppered throughout the act with new mobs and bosses. The same would be done for "Hell" so that you build up and up into newer content. When you hit max lvl there would be new optional side-quests for max lvl players only.
It's just that Jay and the team have talked about the "end-game" in Diablo 3. For example, they mentioned how sets will most likely be something you chase in the end-game(refer to this thread).
Also, I believe they have refered to the "end-game" a few other times...I am too lazy to dig up the quotes though.
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Diablo is structured differently than MMORPGs. In Diablo 2 you're able to beat Baal for the first time and conclude the story content waaaay before hitting max level. My views are based on the assumption that this will be possible for Diablo 3 as well. So 'Nightmare' and 'Hell' are outlets created to reach max level, since the game is already complete before you get to that point. I simply figured that recycling the 'Nightmare' and 'Hell' difficulties to have fresh content throughout would be better than playing the exact same thing 3 times in a row with a 'new-content' dump at the end of it all.
Now if you're able to hit max level before beating the final boss like in a MMORPG, It'd be a different story, but since you're going to have to play the game 3 times over to reach max level, why not embed the new content within each difficulty level instead? The game would literally evolve at each difficulty level. For example; in 'Nightmare': (environments would become more threatening in appearance, some completely new dungeons, new mobs, new bosses, etc.) The 'end-game' from a MMORPG perspective would simply be the suped-up final boss with some added flavor at 'Hell' difficulty. They could get 3-times the game without actually making the game 3-times longer.
Heck, I'm scared that the difficulty will even include any significant differences at all in the first place besides how its done in D2. New monster attacks, new monster types, maybe new monster strategies, etc...
Ultimately though, its a good idea, have each difficulty much more unique would be great. But even then, I still think there should be something beyond normal-nightmare-hell.
I think Dolaiim's idea is amazing, although I would like to tweak it. Lets say that one major dungeon an act has this system implemented (assumability the last act-ending one with the act's main boss). The boss has a 50% chance of dropping one of 4 key peaces and you take all 4 to an artisan to create the key. In order to keep this more end game oriented it will only be accessible in hell and your artisan has to be max level to create the key. This then opens a new area of the dungeon containing a time trial, siege based challenge, defense mode, unique boss, or whatever.
I think this is a good system because:
-It makes the end game less repeatable so its not the only thing players are doing.
-People who don't want to do the content can sell the key peaces for gold.
-Most of us are going to be farming these bosses anyways, so farming these keys wont be a waste of time.
-Very ignorable for end game naysayers.
I would like to end by saying I don't understand why so many people seem to be obsessed with the end boss being the "hardest part of the game." This has nothing to do with end game content really, seeing how end game is just more to do at high level and in most games is not harder than the final boss. Also lets not forget the newest addition to D2's end game, the Uber bosses are clearly much harder than Baal or Diablo, so people saying hard end game "isnt like diablo" are wrong... Its already in Diablo 2.