Which is why some people are saying, what if hostility was an option you could check or uncheck prior to the creation(or joining) of a game so that it could benefit the other party as well, as opposed to just.... not having it at all. For instance, before you even run into the possibility of having to deal with annoying people who spam /duels or go /hostile, you choose whether or not you want to play in a game with those features enabled.
I think the real argument people should be trying to make is why not have more features that would only help the community such as this. I mean the only counter argument to this, that I can see, is that it could segment the community into two types of games. But is that really such a bad thing? I think diablo 2 made it pretty apparent that a lot of people like hostility and even more don't. Given the fact that if more players are fueling the economy (through RMAH, cosmetic DLC, expansions etc) because the game "does it" for them in that it's infinitely replayable, and thus blizzard would get more money and give the game more love, more people would play the game for longer, and neither party would suffer and both would benefit.
The arena should be there as middle-ground between both parties. Having more options is a good thing.
I know this process works because it's been proven in wow. There are PvE servers and there are PvP servers, and while the game is different and you can duel abroad (because you're not taking up a limited number of spaces and increasing people's difficulty), there are still arenas and bgs for all servers to serve as middle ground inbetween all types of players pvp or pve.
I'm not asking for a miracle to happen by launch, and while this idea just now came to me for some reason, it would be nice to see it in the years ahead when people (like me) can't continue playing simply in order to farm.
Also concerning the hidden ranking of the arena, that's fine I get it. The arena will get more action if people think there isn't something important (like a public record) on the line. But shouldn't people be able to see, themselves, where they stand and give them something to fight for and work on with the bold understanding that pvp is an afterthought and will not recieve much balancing attention at all.
^I know that works, because that's how the leagues in SC2 have worked for several seasons now. 96% of all players don't have a loss count. They just have league and win counts shown as well as achievements of quick match and sp scenario types, and the thing I'm suggesting is even less showy than that, in that you won't have anything shown, at most an optional title if you managed to do well.
I can't help but feel they should have had more people working on diablo 3, and that they keep cutting things out of the game that they would like to have, but can't have-at least for launch, and then get this mentality after some time afterwards that they don't want that in the game anymore.
Which is why some people are saying, what if hostility was an option you could check or uncheck prior to the creation(or joining) of a game so that it could benefit the other party as well, as opposed to just.... not having it at all. For instance, before you even run into the possibility of having to deal with annoying people who spam /duels or go /hostile, you choose whether or not you want to play in a game with those features enabled.
I think the real argument people should be trying to make is why not have more features that would only help the community such as this. I mean the only counter argument to this, that I can see, is that it could segment the community into two types of games. But is that really such a bad thing? I think diablo 2 made it pretty apparent that a lot of people like hostility and even more don't. Given the fact that if more players are fueling the economy (through RMAH, cosmetic DLC, expansions etc) because the game "does it" for them in that it's infinitely replayable, and thus blizzard would get more money and give the game more love, more people would play the game for longer, and neither party would suffer and both would benefit.
The arena should be there as middle-ground between both parties. Having more options is a good thing.
Segmenting the community results in two sub-par products in one essentially. You're missing a critical issue...development time is limited. This means that if you add more PvP options, you take away development from PvM options. Since the primary focus of the game is PvM, a majority of us would prefer to have a nice casual PvP system and focus the rest of the resources on the core experience, that being PvM.
Honestly, I don't even think a vast majority of Diablo 2 players really liked hostility. It was really just the only option. Arena PvP offers a much more structured way for people to PvP with enforced rules (which was generally a problem with dueling in D2). What reasons would there be for hostility?
- Dueling? Arena.
- Team vs Team? Arena.
- Randomly fight others? Arena.
- Griefing? Bad idea in the first place.
I just cannot see a reason beyond the very rare player-designed mini-game that hostility would be useful. The only to add hostility in a way that wouldn't adversely affect those that don't want to duel would be to make a separate public game type...and what does it achieve? Creating an Arena, really... as you'd have to purposely queue for that type of public game, with or without friends, and get matched up with other players. See where I'm going here?
When they implement PvP I hope they go further than just arena's. I hate D2's hostility system, but back in high school, every Friday night me and up to 7 friends I went to school with would kill Diablo, and then recreate and spend the next hour or two just FFAing outside the Rogue Encampment. I'm not sure FFA will be so fun/chaotic with only 4 people, so hopefully there's some FFA arena too for 6-8 people.
I understand your points, and I agree with them because I'm not a closed-minded bigot.
I just hope they keep adding more options and modes etc to arena such as those you listed (and more such as FFA mentioned just above, and maybe given time years down the road CTF/KOTH etc) for the rest of us and for those people who don't think they would enjoy pvp but given some experimentation find it to be fun as well.
I really don't think it should be that hard/time-expensive to add more functionality to the arena in this manner, but what do I know.
I understand your points, and I agree with them because I'm not a closed-minded bigot.
I just hope they keep adding more options and modes etc to arena such as those you listed (and more such as FFA mentioned just above, and maybe given time years down the road CTF/KOTH etc) for the rest of us and for those people who don't think they would enjoy pvp but given some experimentation find it to be fun as well.
I really don't think it should be that hard/time-expensive to add more functionality to the arena in this manner, but what do I know.
Honestly, I'd be a lil surprised if we don't see a FFA Arena along with the PvP system. I'm definitely in support of such an Arena option. Heck, I'd be in support of them doing new PvP Arena's every few months as a way to spice up the PvP. I'd just like to see the primary focus of the development stick with PvM. I'm not closed-minded either, however, so if someone gives me a good reason that a PvP feature should be added and why it'd benefit the community...I'd most likely support it.
Give us an option to do 1v7, ect and that is all we need. Bad enough they make us have to waste time and join a separate game mode just to play how we want, but then they take all of our options away too. Give us options to make arena what we want and it is what it is.
Give us an option to do 1v7, ect and that is all we need. Bad enough they make us have to waste time and join a separate game mode just to play how we want, but then they take all of our options away too. Give us options to make arena what we want and it is what it is.
Honestly, I don't think you'll get those kind of options. The best you'll probably get is a private FFA, and just make your own rules as to who wins (which was really the case in D2). Again, Diablo 3 isn't a game focused on PvP. Expecting a ton of customization options for PvP is asking a bit much, especially when PvM doesn't have those kind of customization options either.
Give us an option to do 1v7, ect and that is all we need. Bad enough they make us have to waste time and join a separate game mode just to play how we want, but then they take all of our options away too. Give us options to make arena what we want and it is what it is.
Honestly, I don't think you'll get those kind of options. The best you'll probably get is a private FFA, and just make your own rules as to who wins (which was really the case in D2). Again, Diablo 3 isn't a game focused on PvP. Expecting a ton of customization options for PvP is asking a bit much, especially when PvM doesn't have those kind of customization options either.
Except that Diablo 2 wasn't based on PvP either and yet we had options to do customized PvP. If the arena doesn't allow customization options like 1v1, 1v2, ect then it will be a total fail. It will be nothing more than team based gutter trash with random...kinda like GW random arena...gutter trash. It is fun once or twice to see how far you can go with your luck but in the end it is pointless. May as well just take out arena period at that point and give us a horde mode.
Except that Diablo 2 wasn't based on PvP either and yet we had options to do customized PvP. If the arena doesn't allow customization options like 1v1, 1v2, ect then it will be a total fail. It will be nothing more than team based gutter trash with random...kinda like GW random arena...gutter trash. It is fun once or twice to see how far you can go with your luck but in the end it is pointless. May as well just take out arena period at that point and give us a horde mode.
Diablo 2 didn't have options... it just had hostility and that's it. You're mistaking that for options as it let players make the rules. Diablo 3 PvP isn't meant to be eSport competitive PvP, its casual PvP just to have fun killing other players. Expecting more then that, will likely have you disappointed.
As I've mentioned though, I could see them offering private PvP games. If they add a FFA option with private PvP games, players could do exactly what they did in Diablo 2...make their own rules. This would give you what you want without adding too much complexity to the system itself.
Edit: I love you using insulting terms to refer to the system as well. Just because it won't be what you want doesn't make it 'gutter trash'. The way the PvP system has been described by Blizzard actually appeals to a wider audience, which is actually a GOOD thing. If all you want out of D3 is super competitive PvP...you should be looking at other games instead.
Except that Diablo 2 wasn't based on PvP either and yet we had options to do customized PvP. If the arena doesn't allow customization options like 1v1, 1v2, ect then it will be a total fail. It will be nothing more than team based gutter trash with random...kinda like GW random arena...gutter trash. It is fun once or twice to see how far you can go with your luck but in the end it is pointless. May as well just take out arena period at that point and give us a horde mode.
Diablo 2 didn't have options... it just had hostility and that's it. You're mistaking that for options as it let players make the rules. Diablo 3 PvP isn't meant to be eSport competitive PvP, its casual PvP just to have fun killing other players. Expecting more then that, will likely have you disappointed.
As I've mentioned though, I could see them offering private PvP games. If they add a FFA option with private PvP games, players could do exactly what they did in Diablo 2...make their own rules. This would give you what you want without adding too much complexity to the system itself.
That is just it though. I am not asking for Blizzard to do anything beside give us the power to do what we want. Has nothing to do with esports or competitiveness. Give us the power to make it what we want it, not tie our hands and throw us in the corner like red headed step children.
That is just it though. I am not asking for Blizzard to do anything beside give us the power to do what we want. Has nothing to do with esports or competitiveness. Give us the power to make it what we want it, not tie our hands and throw us in the corner like red headed step children.
Again, you're asking for a focus on PvP that wasn't intended. Blizzard didn't design Diablo (any of them) around PvP. Their goal has always been PvM first, PvP last. In Diablo 3 they are offering a fully structured and integrated PvP system to allow people to easily and casually fight players. Its not meant for some tournament system, eSport, etc. However, a simple private Arena system with an FFA mode WOULD give you exactly what you want (Diablo 2 PvP in Diablo 3, essentially).
Hostility is a bad option given the design of Diablo 3, period. This has been explained many times...and no-one has been able to give a good reason for it. With four players max, and the game balanced around needing all of the players to clear content...its just not a good idea to allow two people to delay everything to battle it out. Its not how Diablo 3 was designed and expecting it to change at this point in development is asking way too much.
That is just it though. I am not asking for Blizzard to do anything beside give us the power to do what we want. Has nothing to do with esports or competitiveness. Give us the power to make it what we want it, not tie our hands and throw us in the corner like red headed step children.
Again, you're asking for a focus on PvP that wasn't intended. Blizzard didn't design Diablo (any of them) around PvP. Their goal has always been PvM first, PvP last. In Diablo 3 they are offering a fully structured and integrated PvP system to allow people to easily and casually fight players. Its not meant for some tournament system, eSport, etc. However, a simple private Arena system with an FFA mode WOULD give you exactly what you want (Diablo 2 PvP in Diablo 3, essentially).
Hostility is a bad option given the design of Diablo 3, period. This has been explained many times...and no-one has been able to give a good reason for it. With four players max, and the game balanced around needing all of the players to clear content...its just not a good idea to allow two people to delay everything to battle it out. Its not how Diablo 3 was designed and expecting it to change at this point in development is asking way too much.
I am asking the EXACT opposite...can you not read? I DON'T WANT BLIZZARD TO MUDDLE WITH PVP...is that clear enough? I want to ability to make my own rules, which is simple. I am not asking for hostility, it would be fantastic if it was in it...but I can live without it. I don't want Blizzard tying my hands because they are to lazy to code proper PvP in the game, just give me the power to do what I want in the arena. They don't have to do shit, just stay out of it cause they will ruin it. That is why D2 had great high end PvP, because we didn't have them sticking their nose in it.
I am asking the EXACT opposite...can you not read? I DON'T WANT BLIZZARD TO MUDDLE WITH PVP...is that clear enough? I want to ability to make my own rules, which is simple. I am not asking for hostility, it would be fantastic if it was in it...but I can live without it. I don't want Blizzard tying my hands because they are to lazy to code proper PvP in the game, just give me the power to do what I want in the arena. They don't have to do shit, just stay out of it cause they will ruin it. That is why D2 had great high end PvP, because we didn't have them sticking their nose in it.
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Aka.. there is no PvP engine AT ALL currently. So, if you don't want Blizzard to muddle with PvP at all...you're saying you don't want them to do it. Blizzard isn't being too lazy to code a proper PvP system into the game, quite the opposite in fact...they are coding a proper structured casual PvP system into the game. It might not be for you, but that's the direction Blizzard has chosen for PvP and a lot of the community prefers it this way. Diablo 2 didn't have great PvP. It has extreme elitist PvP where unless you bought items or spent years farming for them, you always lost. It wasn't fun at all for newer players and mostly was used to grief other players.
Diablo 3 isn't meant for competitive eSport-style PvP. Not at all, in fact. So if that is what you're looking for...you need to look into other games, because this isn't the one for you. If, however, you can be content with playing through an epic story...grinding monsters with friends in infernal...or casually killing people in Arena...then this might be the game for you. That's what Diablo 3 is and what it's been designed and balanced around. Hostility has no place in this design and unless you can explain HOW it does, within the design of the game...I'll continue to believe as such.
Maybe in the future, or in certain areas. While this mechanic was cool to some, majority of the population hates things like this, and if it means that we keep more casual players/develop them into hardcores, or even just having a larger community because mechanics like this drive them away, Ill keep it the way it is now.
I am asking the EXACT opposite...can you not read? I DON'T WANT BLIZZARD TO MUDDLE WITH PVP...is that clear enough? I want to ability to make my own rules, which is simple. I am not asking for hostility, it would be fantastic if it was in it...but I can live without it. I don't want Blizzard tying my hands because they are to lazy to code proper PvP in the game, just give me the power to do what I want in the arena. They don't have to do shit, just stay out of it cause they will ruin it. That is why D2 had great high end PvP, because we didn't have them sticking their nose in it.
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Aka.. there is no PvP engine AT ALL currently. So, if you don't want Blizzard to muddle with PvP at all...you're saying you don't want them to do it. Blizzard isn't being too lazy to code a proper PvP system into the game, quite the opposite in fact...they are coding a proper structured casual PvP system into the game. It might not be for you, but that's the direction Blizzard has chosen for PvP and a lot of the community prefers it this way. Diablo 2 didn't have great PvP. It has extreme elitist PvP where unless you bought items or spent years farming for them, you always lost. It wasn't fun at all for newer players and mostly was used to grief other players.
Diablo 3 isn't meant for competitive eSport-style PvP. Not at all, in fact. So if that is what you're looking for...you need to look into other games, because this isn't the one for you. If, however, you can be content with playing through an epic story...grinding monsters with friends in infernal...or casually killing people in Arena...then this might be the game for you. That's what Diablo 3 is and what it's been designed and balanced around. Hostility has no place in this design and unless you can explain HOW it does, within the design of the game...I'll continue to believe as such.
Man again..get off the esports thing dude. I have yet to say ANYTHING that is even remotely insinuating that I want esports or do I think it is a good idea. I don't know what you are reading that gives you that idea, but you are wrong haha.
Man again..get off the esports thing dude. I have yet to say ANYTHING that is even remotely insinuating that I want esports or do I think it is a good idea. I don't know what you are reading that gives you that idea, but you are wrong haha.
I mention eSport because that's what competitive PvP leans towards. If you want, I'll rephrase what I said instead...Diablo 3 is not designed around competitive PvP in general. As I've stated (as well as Blizzard has stated), Diablo 3 has a game design model focused around PvM. Despite that, Blizzard has made the decision to implement a fully integrated PvP system.
However, that system isn't 'what you want'...so you complain and talk like Blizzard is a failure because they aren't doing things your wait. News flash, Blizzard is a business. As a business that has been making games for many many years, they have a pretty good idea of what their overall player-based wants. I've never been disappointed in a single game Blizzard has released...so I guess I'm part of their target market. If you dislike the direction they are going so much to complain like this, perhaps you're not. That doesn't mean Blizzard did wrong.. it just means its not the game for you.
I've tried playing nice and explaining a plausible reason as to why Blizzard likely chose the path they did. I sat and explained why hostility is a bad idea given the context of the game. I've even tried to suggest ways they could offer what you want, but maintain the path they chose for the game...and what happens? More complaining. If you don't like the path they've chosen this much, perhaps its not the game for you...seriously.
If you think it is still the game for you...maybe you should learn to accept that you're probably not the exact target market Blizzard was shooting for, think about why they chose to do what they did, and actually listen to those that are posting logical explanations...
It would be fun to have some world pvp like it's in WoW. I remember the good old days in STV where something like simple ganking could turn into a World War 3 where everyone came to pwn some noobs! But it seems that it's not possible to have any hostility because some people are whining bitches..and don't want someone to interupt their sacred QUEST to kill some npc's. I wish that Blizzard had focused more on the PvP area of the game than they have been doing. Because I was really looking forward to kill some noobs and dueling in Arena.
I think the real argument people should be trying to make is why not have more features that would only help the community such as this. I mean the only counter argument to this, that I can see, is that it could segment the community into two types of games. But is that really such a bad thing? I think diablo 2 made it pretty apparent that a lot of people like hostility and even more don't. Given the fact that if more players are fueling the economy (through RMAH, cosmetic DLC, expansions etc) because the game "does it" for them in that it's infinitely replayable, and thus blizzard would get more money and give the game more love, more people would play the game for longer, and neither party would suffer and both would benefit.
The arena should be there as middle-ground between both parties. Having more options is a good thing.
I know this process works because it's been proven in wow. There are PvE servers and there are PvP servers, and while the game is different and you can duel abroad (because you're not taking up a limited number of spaces and increasing people's difficulty), there are still arenas and bgs for all servers to serve as middle ground inbetween all types of players pvp or pve.
I'm not asking for a miracle to happen by launch, and while this idea just now came to me for some reason, it would be nice to see it in the years ahead when people (like me) can't continue playing simply in order to farm.
Also concerning the hidden ranking of the arena, that's fine I get it. The arena will get more action if people think there isn't something important (like a public record) on the line. But shouldn't people be able to see, themselves, where they stand and give them something to fight for and work on with the bold understanding that pvp is an afterthought and will not recieve much balancing attention at all.
^I know that works, because that's how the leagues in SC2 have worked for several seasons now. 96% of all players don't have a loss count. They just have league and win counts shown as well as achievements of quick match and sp scenario types, and the thing I'm suggesting is even less showy than that, in that you won't have anything shown, at most an optional title if you managed to do well.
I can't help but feel they should have had more people working on diablo 3, and that they keep cutting things out of the game that they would like to have, but can't have-at least for launch, and then get this mentality after some time afterwards that they don't want that in the game anymore.
Segmenting the community results in two sub-par products in one essentially. You're missing a critical issue...development time is limited. This means that if you add more PvP options, you take away development from PvM options. Since the primary focus of the game is PvM, a majority of us would prefer to have a nice casual PvP system and focus the rest of the resources on the core experience, that being PvM.
Honestly, I don't even think a vast majority of Diablo 2 players really liked hostility. It was really just the only option. Arena PvP offers a much more structured way for people to PvP with enforced rules (which was generally a problem with dueling in D2). What reasons would there be for hostility?
- Dueling? Arena.
- Team vs Team? Arena.
- Randomly fight others? Arena.
- Griefing? Bad idea in the first place.
I just cannot see a reason beyond the very rare player-designed mini-game that hostility would be useful. The only to add hostility in a way that wouldn't adversely affect those that don't want to duel would be to make a separate public game type...and what does it achieve? Creating an Arena, really... as you'd have to purposely queue for that type of public game, with or without friends, and get matched up with other players. See where I'm going here?
I just hope they keep adding more options and modes etc to arena such as those you listed (and more such as FFA mentioned just above, and maybe given time years down the road CTF/KOTH etc) for the rest of us and for those people who don't think they would enjoy pvp but given some experimentation find it to be fun as well.
I really don't think it should be that hard/time-expensive to add more functionality to the arena in this manner, but what do I know.
Honestly, I'd be a lil surprised if we don't see a FFA Arena along with the PvP system. I'm definitely in support of such an Arena option. Heck, I'd be in support of them doing new PvP Arena's every few months as a way to spice up the PvP. I'd just like to see the primary focus of the development stick with PvM. I'm not closed-minded either, however, so if someone gives me a good reason that a PvP feature should be added and why it'd benefit the community...I'd most likely support it.
Honestly, I don't think you'll get those kind of options. The best you'll probably get is a private FFA, and just make your own rules as to who wins (which was really the case in D2). Again, Diablo 3 isn't a game focused on PvP. Expecting a ton of customization options for PvP is asking a bit much, especially when PvM doesn't have those kind of customization options either.
Diablo 2 didn't have options... it just had hostility and that's it. You're mistaking that for options as it let players make the rules. Diablo 3 PvP isn't meant to be eSport competitive PvP, its casual PvP just to have fun killing other players. Expecting more then that, will likely have you disappointed.
As I've mentioned though, I could see them offering private PvP games. If they add a FFA option with private PvP games, players could do exactly what they did in Diablo 2...make their own rules. This would give you what you want without adding too much complexity to the system itself.
Edit: I love you using insulting terms to refer to the system as well. Just because it won't be what you want doesn't make it 'gutter trash'. The way the PvP system has been described by Blizzard actually appeals to a wider audience, which is actually a GOOD thing. If all you want out of D3 is super competitive PvP...you should be looking at other games instead.
Again, you're asking for a focus on PvP that wasn't intended. Blizzard didn't design Diablo (any of them) around PvP. Their goal has always been PvM first, PvP last. In Diablo 3 they are offering a fully structured and integrated PvP system to allow people to easily and casually fight players. Its not meant for some tournament system, eSport, etc. However, a simple private Arena system with an FFA mode WOULD give you exactly what you want (Diablo 2 PvP in Diablo 3, essentially).
Hostility is a bad option given the design of Diablo 3, period. This has been explained many times...and no-one has been able to give a good reason for it. With four players max, and the game balanced around needing all of the players to clear content...its just not a good idea to allow two people to delay everything to battle it out. Its not how Diablo 3 was designed and expecting it to change at this point in development is asking way too much.
Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2. Aka.. there is no PvP engine AT ALL currently. So, if you don't want Blizzard to muddle with PvP at all...you're saying you don't want them to do it. Blizzard isn't being too lazy to code a proper PvP system into the game, quite the opposite in fact...they are coding a proper structured casual PvP system into the game. It might not be for you, but that's the direction Blizzard has chosen for PvP and a lot of the community prefers it this way. Diablo 2 didn't have great PvP. It has extreme elitist PvP where unless you bought items or spent years farming for them, you always lost. It wasn't fun at all for newer players and mostly was used to grief other players.
Diablo 3 isn't meant for competitive eSport-style PvP. Not at all, in fact. So if that is what you're looking for...you need to look into other games, because this isn't the one for you. If, however, you can be content with playing through an epic story...grinding monsters with friends in infernal...or casually killing people in Arena...then this might be the game for you. That's what Diablo 3 is and what it's been designed and balanced around. Hostility has no place in this design and unless you can explain HOW it does, within the design of the game...I'll continue to believe as such.
I mention eSport because that's what competitive PvP leans towards. If you want, I'll rephrase what I said instead...Diablo 3 is not designed around competitive PvP in general. As I've stated (as well as Blizzard has stated), Diablo 3 has a game design model focused around PvM. Despite that, Blizzard has made the decision to implement a fully integrated PvP system.
However, that system isn't 'what you want'...so you complain and talk like Blizzard is a failure because they aren't doing things your wait. News flash, Blizzard is a business. As a business that has been making games for many many years, they have a pretty good idea of what their overall player-based wants. I've never been disappointed in a single game Blizzard has released...so I guess I'm part of their target market. If you dislike the direction they are going so much to complain like this, perhaps you're not. That doesn't mean Blizzard did wrong.. it just means its not the game for you.
I've tried playing nice and explaining a plausible reason as to why Blizzard likely chose the path they did. I sat and explained why hostility is a bad idea given the context of the game. I've even tried to suggest ways they could offer what you want, but maintain the path they chose for the game...and what happens? More complaining. If you don't like the path they've chosen this much, perhaps its not the game for you...seriously.
If you think it is still the game for you...maybe you should learn to accept that you're probably not the exact target market Blizzard was shooting for, think about why they chose to do what they did, and actually listen to those that are posting logical explanations...