Intro:
First off, let me say that I realize this is diablo, and in the past diablo used hostility. However let's just agree that since the testing of hostility there have been superior forms of pvp tested and proven to work to more players' benefit. With that said, I aim to stop beating the dead horse of hostility here and hope to put some other ideas in the spot light so that we can, as our own community, come to something of a consensus and a mutual understanding. It probably won't accomplish much/anything, but hopefully it's better than the two sided bickering in past threads. If possible please consider that not everyone plays the game the same way or for the same reasons you do before voting/posting. Also please keep in mind that pvp is still an important part of diablo, albeit just a supporting role for the main game which is monster slaying. The economy and longevity of the game increases when people are interested in having more reasons for having the best items.
1- Arena
I think everyone can agree by now, especially with it already somewhat in place/the works, that arena is a staple pvp in blizzard rpg pvp. Teams will queue up against random teams of similar strength (based on hidden mmr) to duke it out. This is completely optional and will not interfere with other people's gameplay. This is not suggesting anything new, as it's already been tried and tested and in the works for several years now. This is not enough to satisfy everyone, however.
2- Private Arena
Like the arena, save you choose the:
-map (pull down box)
-players (by invite)
-rules (1v1, ffa, team/team size/locked teams, tdm, lms, globes on/off, respawn time etc)
^This would allow for communities to organize pvp tournaments, not too different from sc2. You could duke it out with your buddies and test out your new items you pvm'd long and hard for. We all know by now that diablo 3 will not be an esport, but that isn't an argument to not have these features for the players to enjoy, just so that we don't *trick ourselves into thinking* diablo 3 is an esport. It is still a much needed/desired feature that is optional, controlled, draws more interest and longevity to the game and also as a way reach across the boundry between pvp and pvm focused players.
3- Additional pvp Modes
Just as battlegrounds supplement arenas in wow, why not (over time, such as an expansion) add optional modes with objectives such as capture the flag, king of the hill, resource control battles. The rewards should be mostly shallow as it is optional content, but perhaps some banner stuff for time investment etc. Make this a public system not too different from arenas in that you queue up(with up to a few friends) to fill a game, except with no hidden MMV.
Not that I deliberately wish to contribute nothing to this thread, and I am sorry for saying so. But this particular discussion on wether world pvp, dueling system/modes or anything of that nature should or should not be in diablo 3, has been absolutely beaten to death over the last 2 weeks on these forums it's like a broken record.
I think people need to take a step back and realize that there is plenty of potential for anything but the final decision rests with the dev team, and at this point in time the only considered pvp content that we know of is the arena.
PvM* and PvP are already being mixed together and more competitively focused than any of the features I suggested (in the form of the arena). Not only will the arena have a hidden match making value system underlying it, but it will also pit specific class comps against each other and over time cookie cutter teams and class specs *will* emerge in arena.
Not only that but as long as half a year ago I remember the devs talking about placing *some* time on pvp balance if something is blatantly broken (IE, infinite stun lock, whole team infinite crowd control, one shot kills etc), but that the change would be made exclusive to the arena so that they wouldn't have to change the way damage/gear scaled in PvM to suite that of PvP. So yes it would take a few more resources, but it wouldn't *really* effect pvm, not forgetting to mention again that this is already in the works and has been for sometime.
The additional features I put forwards, especially about private arena, doesn't change the pvp emphasis seeing as how it would be officially unranked period and for the most part just a copy paste of the public MMV arena with player-given/driven control. If communities really got behind making pvp tournaments and it became a situation where (as unlikely as it is) pvp started to become more of a focus then don't you think that'd just prove that more people would find pvp fun- or else they wouldn't do it. PvM is also tied into pvp because the power of your character directly translates into your power in pvp, which means that even pvp focused players will grow the community and the auction houses in order to increase their power in pvp, which leads to some more money for additional resources with a flourishing game with a large community following.
Not that I deliberately wish to contribute nothing to this thread, and I am sorry for saying so. But this particular discussion on wether world pvp, dueling system/modes or anything of that nature should or should not be in diablo 3, has been absolutely beaten to death over the last 2 weeks on these forums it's like a broken record.
I think people need to take a step back and realize that there is plenty of potential for anything but the final decision rests with the dev team, and at this point in time the only considered pvp content that we know of is the arena.
Long live diablo.
I've realized that, but if the community has even a .0001% chance potential of seeing a change implemented that they want they should go after it. Sitting back and accepting what's handed to me just isn't really my style. There is only so much to talk about concerning pvp at the moment and that is because as of right now, aside from that dead horse, pvp looks pretty bleak. What else are we supposed to talk about in the pvp forums pre-release other than this beaten horse. With that said I wasn't even talking about hostility, random world pvp, etc- and if you bothered to read previous threads nearly everyone neglected talking about more controlled forms(features) of pvp in the midst of those arguments over hostility.
I did bother to read all the other threads discussion pvp pre-release, that's how I am well aware of how much a beaten horse it is. And I know you didn't mention hostility or world pvp but im sure it is a feature you want, you just didn't say it, which is fine. And now that you have baited me by basically saying I needlessly post without reading, I wish people such as yourself would stop using a WoW reference for everything diablo related "wow has this or does this, so it's ok and we should have something like it". Two totally different game genres, and when im playing diablo I want it to feel like diablo not wow.
As for the additional pvp modes you mentioned it might work, but in the end all I see is people screaming for something to be patched in such as;
I did this better and I want everyone to see it.
I captured this many flags I'm the best
I held this hill for this much time I'm the best.
which in the eyes of blizzard seems to be;
1) Emphasis on something that is supposed to be a secondary choice.
2) Something they don't wish to implement for the above reason.
2- Private Arena
Like the arena, save you choose the:
-map (pull down box)
-players (by invite)
-rules (1v1, ffa, team/team size/locked teams, tdm, lms, globes on/off, respawn time etc)
^This would allow for communities to organize pvp tournaments, not too different from sc2. You could duke it out with your buddies and test out your new items you pvm'd long and hard for. We all know by now that diablo 3 will not be an esport, but that isn't an argument to not have these features for the players to enjoy, just so that we don't *trick ourselves into thinking* diablo 3 is an esport. It is still a much needed/desired feature that is optional, controlled, draws more interest and longevity to the game and also as a way reach across the boundry between pvp and pvm focused players.
I voted yes and no, mostly because of this point. I was the one to really push for private Arena, however, I don't agree with the pile of enforced options. Developing all those options would take a considerable amount of time that I can only see being practical years down the line (when Blizzard has exhausted the expansion(s) and such).
Now, I could see a private FFA mode...that would essentially let players 'make up' their rules...but they wouldn't be enforced. This would still allow the community to make PvP into whatever they want, but it wouldn't sap a ton of development resources from other aspects of the game. Unless Blizzard adds this amount of customization to PvM (which it hasn't yet), I couldn't see it for PvP.
I know PvP players want vast options and features for PvP...but that really just isn't the point of Diablo 3. I'm all for features that could be easily added to allow for more options without a development sink, but features like these would take a lot of development time away from PvM. In a game about slaying monsters devoting a lot of your resources to PvP just doesn't sit right.
Maybe some odd 5 years down the road, when a lot of the PvM players have exhausted the game (assuming Blizzard isn't still releasing content), I could see these features.. but not anytime soon.
What pvpers want are mainly the best features they were allowed in diablo 2, sc, and wow, except those features which trampled all over other peoples fun in the form of griefing. I get the resource argument, I can't really blame someone who wants to focus on monster slaying for not wanting more resources spent on player slaying, and to be realistic this is blizzard we're talking about, which is why I mentioned it somewhere in the op that it may take an expansion or so before any of this occurs.
As for the additional pvp modes you mentioned it might work, but in the end all I see is people screaming for something to be patched in such as;
I did this better and I want everyone to see it.
I captured this many flags I'm the best
I held this hill for this much time I'm the best.
Except none of the features I suggested would be ranked. They don't even have to have banner achievements, and if they did they'd be time investments not a scale of skill. Features 2 and 3 are less openly competitive than match making value arenas which are already in the works. You would pretty much be playing in a pickup group aside from the couple of people you queued up with.
Those were only examples as to what setting the "rules" could be, by the way. I thought it'd be too vague to just say "rules" and expect everyone to understand, however. I'd go back and edit the first post for clarification but with the way I made the poll and with votes already in progress I feel I had better just leave it alone and hope people read this far down.
I think if you could control as much as team/size and ffa would be more than enough to hold people over for a long, long time.
Those were only examples as to what setting the "rules" could be, by the way. I thought it'd be too vague to just say "rules" and expect everyone to understand, however. I'd go back and edit the first post for clarification but with the way I made the poll and with votes already in progress I feel I had better just leave it alone and hope people read this far down.
I think if you could control as much as team/size and ffa would be more than enough to hold people over for a long, long time.
I think the amount of 'control' for PvP at least initially should be limited the same way PvM is. Essentially, going by what I've heard about the upcoming PvP, it'd go like this...
- Public / Private game
- Choose Arena type/map
- If private, invite players...if public, matchmaking assigns players
- PvP starts
If you assume Arena modes of FFA and Team Deathmatch. Private games could have no time limit, allowing players to decide who wins. This would let people make up the rules, but not require a ton of development resources (ideally). Seems like it'd give the more PvP focused players a lot of what they want.
The one issue I see with focusing too much on PvP though is exactly as Gryzorz said...the more PvP features that are added the more people will want balanced and competitive PvP. The more Blizzard offers for PvP the more they will be pressured to work on such balance and as we've seen with their other games, it does hurt PvM. I believe this is why Blizzard made their no-eSport policy in the first place. Its not that they don't want to see Diablo become an eSport... they just want to keep the core of the game about slaying monsters.
This is why I suggested the simple approach of simple Private PvP. It allows options, but doesn't offer any structure that would be expected for a competitive PvP...it leaves it all up to the players, without any promise of balance or anything.
Those were only examples as to what setting the "rules" could be, by the way. I thought it'd be too vague to just say "rules" and expect everyone to understand, however. I'd go back and edit the first post for clarification but with the way I made the poll and with votes already in progress I feel I had better just leave it alone and hope people read this far down.
I think if you could control as much as team/size and ffa would be more than enough to hold people over for a long, long time.
I think the amount of 'control' for PvP at least initially should be limited the same way PvM is. Essentially, going by what I've heard about the upcoming PvP, it'd go like this...
- Public / Private game
- Choose Arena type/map
- If private, invite players...if public, matchmaking assigns players
- PvP starts
If you assume Arena modes of FFA and Team Deathmatch. Private games could have no time limit, allowing players to decide who wins. This would let people make up the rules, but not require a ton of development resources (ideally). Seems like it'd give the more PvP focused players a lot of what they want.
This, except allow switching of teams and we're golden.
This, except allow switching of teams and we're golden.
Well, since the FFA game private Arena type would be essentially an open PvP zone, where all rules are made by the players.. you've got it covered right there. Switching teams for the other game modes doesn't make as much sense. You could just as easily create a new game with different teams.
First off, let me say that I realize this is diablo, and in the past diablo used hostility. However let's just agree that since the testing of hostility there have been superior forms of pvp tested and proven to work to more players' benefit. With that said, I aim to stop beating the dead horse of hostility here and hope to put some other ideas in the spot light so that we can, as our own community, come to something of a consensus and a mutual understanding. It probably won't accomplish much/anything, but hopefully it's better than the two sided bickering in past threads. If possible please consider that not everyone plays the game the same way or for the same reasons you do before voting/posting. Also please keep in mind that pvp is still an important part of diablo, albeit just a supporting role for the main game which is monster slaying. The economy and longevity of the game increases when people are interested in having more reasons for having the best items.
1- Arena
I think everyone can agree by now, especially with it already somewhat in place/the works, that arena is a staple pvp in blizzard rpg pvp. Teams will queue up against random teams of similar strength (based on hidden mmr) to duke it out. This is completely optional and will not interfere with other people's gameplay. This is not suggesting anything new, as it's already been tried and tested and in the works for several years now. This is not enough to satisfy everyone, however.
2- Private Arena
Like the arena, save you choose the:
-map (pull down box)
-players (by invite)
-rules (1v1, ffa, team/team size/locked teams, tdm, lms, globes on/off, respawn time etc)
^This would allow for communities to organize pvp tournaments, not too different from sc2. You could duke it out with your buddies and test out your new items you pvm'd long and hard for. We all know by now that diablo 3 will not be an esport, but that isn't an argument to not have these features for the players to enjoy, just so that we don't *trick ourselves into thinking* diablo 3 is an esport. It is still a much needed/desired feature that is optional, controlled, draws more interest and longevity to the game and also as a way reach across the boundry between pvp and pvm focused players.
3- Additional pvp Modes
Just as battlegrounds supplement arenas in wow, why not (over time, such as an expansion) add optional modes with objectives such as capture the flag, king of the hill, resource control battles. The rewards should be mostly shallow as it is optional content, but perhaps some banner stuff for time investment etc. Make this a public system not too different from arenas in that you queue up(with up to a few friends) to fill a game, except with no hidden MMV.
What do ya'll think.
I think people need to take a step back and realize that there is plenty of potential for anything but the final decision rests with the dev team, and at this point in time the only considered pvp content that we know of is the arena.
Long live diablo.
Not only that but as long as half a year ago I remember the devs talking about placing *some* time on pvp balance if something is blatantly broken (IE, infinite stun lock, whole team infinite crowd control, one shot kills etc), but that the change would be made exclusive to the arena so that they wouldn't have to change the way damage/gear scaled in PvM to suite that of PvP. So yes it would take a few more resources, but it wouldn't *really* effect pvm, not forgetting to mention again that this is already in the works and has been for sometime.
The additional features I put forwards, especially about private arena, doesn't change the pvp emphasis seeing as how it would be officially unranked period and for the most part just a copy paste of the public MMV arena with player-given/driven control. If communities really got behind making pvp tournaments and it became a situation where (as unlikely as it is) pvp started to become more of a focus then don't you think that'd just prove that more people would find pvp fun- or else they wouldn't do it. PvM is also tied into pvp because the power of your character directly translates into your power in pvp, which means that even pvp focused players will grow the community and the auction houses in order to increase their power in pvp, which leads to some more money for additional resources with a flourishing game with a large community following.
I've realized that, but if the community has even a .0001% chance potential of seeing a change implemented that they want they should go after it. Sitting back and accepting what's handed to me just isn't really my style. There is only so much to talk about concerning pvp at the moment and that is because as of right now, aside from that dead horse, pvp looks pretty bleak. What else are we supposed to talk about in the pvp forums pre-release other than this beaten horse. With that said I wasn't even talking about hostility, random world pvp, etc- and if you bothered to read previous threads nearly everyone neglected talking about more controlled forms(features) of pvp in the midst of those arguments over hostility.
I did bother to read all the other threads discussion pvp pre-release, that's how I am well aware of how much a beaten horse it is. And I know you didn't mention hostility or world pvp but im sure it is a feature you want, you just didn't say it, which is fine. And now that you have baited me by basically saying I needlessly post without reading, I wish people such as yourself would stop using a WoW reference for everything diablo related "wow has this or does this, so it's ok and we should have something like it". Two totally different game genres, and when im playing diablo I want it to feel like diablo not wow.
As for the additional pvp modes you mentioned it might work, but in the end all I see is people screaming for something to be patched in such as;
I did this better and I want everyone to see it.
I captured this many flags I'm the best
I held this hill for this much time I'm the best.
which in the eyes of blizzard seems to be;
1) Emphasis on something that is supposed to be a secondary choice.
2) Something they don't wish to implement for the above reason.
I voted yes and no, mostly because of this point. I was the one to really push for private Arena, however, I don't agree with the pile of enforced options. Developing all those options would take a considerable amount of time that I can only see being practical years down the line (when Blizzard has exhausted the expansion(s) and such).
Now, I could see a private FFA mode...that would essentially let players 'make up' their rules...but they wouldn't be enforced. This would still allow the community to make PvP into whatever they want, but it wouldn't sap a ton of development resources from other aspects of the game. Unless Blizzard adds this amount of customization to PvM (which it hasn't yet), I couldn't see it for PvP.
I know PvP players want vast options and features for PvP...but that really just isn't the point of Diablo 3. I'm all for features that could be easily added to allow for more options without a development sink, but features like these would take a lot of development time away from PvM. In a game about slaying monsters devoting a lot of your resources to PvP just doesn't sit right.
Maybe some odd 5 years down the road, when a lot of the PvM players have exhausted the game (assuming Blizzard isn't still releasing content), I could see these features.. but not anytime soon.
Except none of the features I suggested would be ranked. They don't even have to have banner achievements, and if they did they'd be time investments not a scale of skill. Features 2 and 3 are less openly competitive than match making value arenas which are already in the works. You would pretty much be playing in a pickup group aside from the couple of people you queued up with.
Those were only examples as to what setting the "rules" could be, by the way. I thought it'd be too vague to just say "rules" and expect everyone to understand, however. I'd go back and edit the first post for clarification but with the way I made the poll and with votes already in progress I feel I had better just leave it alone and hope people read this far down.
I think if you could control as much as team/size and ffa would be more than enough to hold people over for a long, long time.
I think the amount of 'control' for PvP at least initially should be limited the same way PvM is. Essentially, going by what I've heard about the upcoming PvP, it'd go like this...
- Public / Private game
- Choose Arena type/map
- If private, invite players...if public, matchmaking assigns players
- PvP starts
If you assume Arena modes of FFA and Team Deathmatch. Private games could have no time limit, allowing players to decide who wins. This would let people make up the rules, but not require a ton of development resources (ideally). Seems like it'd give the more PvP focused players a lot of what they want.
The one issue I see with focusing too much on PvP though is exactly as Gryzorz said...the more PvP features that are added the more people will want balanced and competitive PvP. The more Blizzard offers for PvP the more they will be pressured to work on such balance and as we've seen with their other games, it does hurt PvM. I believe this is why Blizzard made their no-eSport policy in the first place. Its not that they don't want to see Diablo become an eSport... they just want to keep the core of the game about slaying monsters.
This is why I suggested the simple approach of simple Private PvP. It allows options, but doesn't offer any structure that would be expected for a competitive PvP...it leaves it all up to the players, without any promise of balance or anything.
This, except allow switching of teams and we're golden.
Well, since the FFA game private Arena type would be essentially an open PvP zone, where all rules are made by the players.. you've got it covered right there. Switching teams for the other game modes doesn't make as much sense. You could just as easily create a new game with different teams.
Oh yeah, I figure there would be some method of being able to choose your team for private PvP matches. Much like say SC2 game lobby before it starts.