True, but at least the Pally owns PvP in PvP equally with Sin, and the Zon owns PvM and Bosses. So my point wasn't only that the sorc was better then everyone but everyone else has a specific strength.
Your point was that the Sorceress was the best MF class. And it's true. The Sorceress is better then the Paladin, the Necro, the Amazon, and the Barbarian, as well as the Assassin and the Druid. The Sorceress is the premier MF class.
Quote from "mattheo_majik" »
Yeah, but if you take two of the same skill duelers and give one of them the OP Pally, there is no reason he should lose.
It's kinda obvious if you put an uber pally in the hands of an idiot he will lose, it doesn't need to be confirmed by anyone. So this is mute as well.
Actually, there's no reason the Necromancer should loose, in equal skilled hands. If both have the Enigma, then it's going to be an equal battle, and if neither have Enigma, then a bone prison and spam Bone Spirit and the Paladin's dead. So it's really not mute, as there is really not a situation where, with both players equally skilled and with equal quality gear, where the Paladin would have an inherent chance of winning.
Quote from "mattheo_majik" »
+Actually the Javazon's secondary skill of Jab is more then enough to deal with any Lightning Immunes, one jab is all you need unless you hit a Lightning Immune Unique Monster. Plus with her survivability she is much more durable than a Necro.
So, Lightning Immune and Physical Immune, scattered all through hell, with many that have both, vs Magic Immune making one appearance in A3 briefly. Yea, the Javazon has a much better chance.
Quote from "mattheo_majik" »
Actually there are thousands of builds for everything, but it doesn't mean that they are actually successful at doing it. Let me know when you see a Druid/Assassin/Barbarian solo ubers in Hardcore, I just haven't seen that yet. I don't mean they don't exist, just never seen it, maybe you would enlighten me. :cool:
There was a thread around here where everyone was talking about it... Let me see if I can find it...
True, but pure bonemancers struggle in soloing, so If you do make one, youll probably need to be rushed. The Hammerdin won't. However I do admit that they won't lag the game.
This is mute as everyone is rushed in Diablo 2 anymore. x.x Not sure what your point is...
Quote from "mattheo_majik" »
I do admit some of my points are stereotypes, (lag) but you can't dismiss that some aren't and the Necro does lack a specific area of expertise.
Yes, I admit the Necromancer has some issues with lag, mostly due to Blizzard's ten year old servers running Diablo 2. :/ But then again, there is a great deal of variety with the Necromancer, whereas with the Paladin you have about two or three builds that are even usable at this point in the game.
Quote from "mattheo_majik" »
Not trying to be right, just arguing my point on why I don't admire the char, but as you said, to each his own opinion. I just like debating mine, and I do respect yours.
I know your not trying to be right, I'm to busy taking that spot. But seriously, I do understand your position, and just want to point out some of the fallacies I see in it. Not saying it's a bad position, far from it. Just making clerifications.
+Sorc MF'ed better then all the classes. The sorceress was the premier MF class. So, by your definition the Sorc is better then the Paladin, Amazon, Assassin, etc as well.
-Assassin and Pally PK/PvP 1000X better than a necro.
+That is your opinion. Yes, the Paladin is OP in PvP, but in the proper hands any class can defeat any class, and in the not-so-proper hands, any class can be defeated by any class. So this point is mute.
-Javazons and Hammerdins solo Hell and bosses 100000X better than a necro.
+Actually the Javazon has problems in Hell due to Light Immunes, whereas the Necromancer's bone skills are just like the Hammerdin's hammers, IE they have no immunes. Now, if your refering to the weapons that remove immunities, then you must be saying that all classes are equal. Otherwise the Paladin is on equal footing as the Necromancer.
-Ive heard of Hammerdins soloing Ubers, not necros..
+Actually Smitadens are better then Hammerdins in Ubers. And there are builds for Necromancers for defeating Ubers, just like there are builds for Sorceresses, Amazons, Druids, Barbarians, and Assassins. So this point is mute.
-Oh yeah, game lagging, Necro really does it 1000 X better than everyone else. I do admit.
+Summonmancers are not Bonemancers. Summonmancers are not Poisonmancers. And again, bonemancers cause just as much lag as Hammerdins.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Hammerdins, or any class for that matter. But it's silly to use stereotypes to dismiss a class.
I dont get how so many people became Necromancer Nut Huggers.
Every time I log on to Diablofans.com, all I seem to be reading about
are people crying over the fact that the barb got the comeback spot
over the game lagging Necromancer.
I just don't think he was that good. The only way he ever did anything
relevant was by spamming homing missiles (Bone Spirit) or by using the
overpowered teleport from Enigma, matched with the lack of clipping
balance with summons who would all focus in the center whenever you teleported, to insta kill in PvP.
Thats' just lame in my book. Kinda like Tele+WW.
Clay,Blood,Fire golems couldn't kill shit. Only an Iron Golem
could but that's just cause he had Iron Maiden.
Skellies were powerful, but were useless in PVP unless matched
with Teleport for focus fire. Since they were so stupid.
Curses were the only thing usefull about a necro in a multiplayer game.
Everytime Hardcore Baal Runs would encounter summoners, everyone would leave since they lagged the shit outa the game.
Poison spells couldn't do shit unless u had 0 resist to poison...
Some will jump on this post and claim Corpse Explosion was so godly, but was it?
In a good Multiplayer game with strong chars, you wouldn''t even have time to blow
up anything before the other players were done with every monsters in the room.
One frozen orb, a Hammer, and a Lightning Jav and boom!, nothing to explode but air.
So...what's so good about the necro again?
(Hope you don't mind that I put it in a spoiler, it was a really long post and I didn't want to make the page any longer then it already is. :P)
The Necromancer was one of the best classes. The bone skills were better then the Paladin's, as you could actually aim them, the summons were amazing and, when built properly, able to kill most things, and while you might have light or cold or fire immune, rendering sorcs useless, the bones were only immune to one monster (Which I think 1.13 took out, though I may be mistaken.) Of course, you could argue the Paladin's hammers vs the Necromancer's Bone Spear, but the hammers were insanely difficult to aim, and you had to teleport right ontop of the monsters or player to kill them, whereas with the Bone Spear you just pointed and clicked.
Personally, I think the only reason the Necromancer didn't come back in D3 vanilla is because the class was too good. The Barbarian had too many flaws, so they brought it back and tried to make it better.
Quote from "dirty" »
I completely agree with duffman. Lore or whatever to me does not make a class dark.
How is using a dead skeleton that has no use for your own gain dark? Its not alive, it's just bone. If anything, it's neutral rather then good or bad...
As for the Paladin, he's more of a lawful evil person, rather then a lawful good person. At least, from everything I've ever seen.
Basically:
Paladin: Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil
Necromancer Chaotic Good/Neutral Good
May I ask how the Necromancer, who, aside from the Druid, is the one class fighting for Humanity and Sanctuary, is the evil class? The Paladin, on the other side, could be viewed as the truely evil one, fighting for Heaven, who wants extreme order. In the world of Diablo, niether Heaven or Hell is good, and the Necromancer understands that. I could see the Necromancer killing an angel just as fast as a demon, whereas the Paladin, blinded by faith, would be murdered by an angel while he fights a demon.
Dark class? The Paladin is the dark class from what I can see.
Note: None of this is in reference to any real world religion. Please do not confuse it as such.
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Your point was that the Sorceress was the best MF class. And it's true. The Sorceress is better then the Paladin, the Necro, the Amazon, and the Barbarian, as well as the Assassin and the Druid. The Sorceress is the premier MF class.
Actually, there's no reason the Necromancer should loose, in equal skilled hands. If both have the Enigma, then it's going to be an equal battle, and if neither have Enigma, then a bone prison and spam Bone Spirit and the Paladin's dead. So it's really not mute, as there is really not a situation where, with both players equally skilled and with equal quality gear, where the Paladin would have an inherent chance of winning.
So, Lightning Immune and Physical Immune, scattered all through hell, with many that have both, vs Magic Immune making one appearance in A3 briefly. Yea, the Javazon has a much better chance.
There was a thread around here where everyone was talking about it... Let me see if I can find it...
Hold up, think I found the thread....
This is mute as everyone is rushed in Diablo 2 anymore. x.x Not sure what your point is...
Yes, I admit the Necromancer has some issues with lag, mostly due to Blizzard's ten year old servers running Diablo 2. :/ But then again, there is a great deal of variety with the Necromancer, whereas with the Paladin you have about two or three builds that are even usable at this point in the game.
I know your not trying to be right, I'm to busy taking that spot. But seriously, I do understand your position, and just want to point out some of the fallacies I see in it. Not saying it's a bad position, far from it. Just making clerifications.
+Sorc MF'ed better then all the classes. The sorceress was the premier MF class. So, by your definition the Sorc is better then the Paladin, Amazon, Assassin, etc as well.
-Assassin and Pally PK/PvP 1000X better than a necro.
+That is your opinion. Yes, the Paladin is OP in PvP, but in the proper hands any class can defeat any class, and in the not-so-proper hands, any class can be defeated by any class. So this point is mute.
-Javazons and Hammerdins solo Hell and bosses 100000X better than a necro.
+Actually the Javazon has problems in Hell due to Light Immunes, whereas the Necromancer's bone skills are just like the Hammerdin's hammers, IE they have no immunes. Now, if your refering to the weapons that remove immunities, then you must be saying that all classes are equal. Otherwise the Paladin is on equal footing as the Necromancer.
-Ive heard of Hammerdins soloing Ubers, not necros..
+Actually Smitadens are better then Hammerdins in Ubers. And there are builds for Necromancers for defeating Ubers, just like there are builds for Sorceresses, Amazons, Druids, Barbarians, and Assassins. So this point is mute.
-Oh yeah, game lagging, Necro really does it 1000 X better than everyone else. I do admit.
+Summonmancers are not Bonemancers. Summonmancers are not Poisonmancers. And again, bonemancers cause just as much lag as Hammerdins.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Hammerdins, or any class for that matter. But it's silly to use stereotypes to dismiss a class.
(Hope you don't mind that I put it in a spoiler, it was a really long post and I didn't want to make the page any longer then it already is. :P)
The Necromancer was one of the best classes. The bone skills were better then the Paladin's, as you could actually aim them, the summons were amazing and, when built properly, able to kill most things, and while you might have light or cold or fire immune, rendering sorcs useless, the bones were only immune to one monster (Which I think 1.13 took out, though I may be mistaken.) Of course, you could argue the Paladin's hammers vs the Necromancer's Bone Spear, but the hammers were insanely difficult to aim, and you had to teleport right ontop of the monsters or player to kill them, whereas with the Bone Spear you just pointed and clicked.
Personally, I think the only reason the Necromancer didn't come back in D3 vanilla is because the class was too good. The Barbarian had too many flaws, so they brought it back and tried to make it better.
Wait...what?...
Except, everyone thinks he's evil because his work is "taboo." :/
As for the Paladin, he's more of a lawful evil person, rather then a lawful good person. At least, from everything I've ever seen.
Basically:
Paladin: Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil
Necromancer Chaotic Good/Neutral Good
Dark class? The Paladin is the dark class from what I can see.
Note: None of this is in reference to any real world religion. Please do not confuse it as such.