I am wondering if there are skill groupings of the + damage modifiers. Obviously attack doesn't multiply itself, same for crit damage. So perhaps +all % damage also just adds to itself as well. And then weapon damage.
Thus, Frenzy(120), Battle Rage(100), Bash(80), etc would all simply add together and not continually multiple off each other.
Throw Weapon with Red rune = 462% weapon damage.
Battle Rage with Red rune = 100% more damage.
Max Bash with Blue rune = 80% more damage.
Wrath of the Berzerker with Red run = 75% more damage.
Brawler passive = 30% more damage when around 8 dudes.
No Escape passive = 100% more damage with Throw Weapon.
+120% from Frenzy. Should be 462% weapon damage and 505% + all damage.
Thus with 500 attack and 500% crit damage:
[{(250*462%) * 500} * 505] * 500 = 145818
That is pretty serious on a crit. Or maybe not. Maybe Inferno Diablo has 5 million health.
If the math pans out as such, dropping Battle Rage should only lower damage by about 15-25% as opposed to a 50% cut.
DiabloSin, if every class gets +100% damage mechanics it might be because the game is that hard. You can't really say those things are overpowered by themselves, it is when those skills are practically required because there is no other way to double your damage for instance.
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
I'm not saying it's overpowered, or wrong, i'm saying that calling for it to be changed or nerfed on the barb, when other classes get similar such skills, that is wrong. It's ridiculous that people are even calling for changes or saying something is overpowered based on speculation, we only see a small part of the game. So what if it's a good skill that most barbs will want to take? I can think of skills that are literally "must haves" for every class. At least it appears that they are must haves from what is revealed so far.
I agree with you in general, but in comparison the other classes that get similar abilities are on Cooldowns, targeted area effects(still on CD), etc.
And I don't believe anyone has called for a nerf exactly... just pointing out what appears to be what amounts to a near required skill for dps barbs. Albeit, point out a little too emphatically and with hyped up numbers...
DiabloSin, if every class gets +100% damage mechanics it might be because the game is that hard. You can't really say those things are overpowered by themselves, it is when those skills are practically required because there is no other way to double your damage for instance.
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
Another point, has anyone tested if battle rage actually doubles the damage as people claim? For instance take a skill that does 200% weapon damage, does a 100% battle rage buff add 100% to make it 300% or does it double the 200% to 400%?
Apparently the un-runed Battle Rage adds 30% to end damage in the beta. The 100% will do the same.
Also, what is this thread supposed to be, disguised nerf barb thread? Battle rage is good enough that any dps build will probably want to take it, so, you propose that they "fix" this how? By nerfing it so it's no longer worth taking? GJ.
Need I remind you that the wizard gets their own similar buff, and while it is only a 40% damage increase, the wizard has other ways to hugely increase their damage, such as the +spell damage gem that they can socket into their weapon. A t2-t3 gem adds +10% spell damage, imagine how much a T14 gem will add? 200% spell damage? Fit 4 of those, 800% damage. Barb doesn't get a melee damage version, they get life leech instead. Yeah, battle rage is too good, let's nerf it so instead of it being a useful skill, nobody takes it instead! And endgame, a gemmed out wizard will massively outdps any dps barb.
I haven't looked at the gems, but 10 Attack = 10% damage so I am sure the barb won't have a problem keeping up in the gem department.
The point isn't about damage, or broken builds at all really. It is about a skill that is so good that people would be gimped not to take it. There is no apparent tradeoff to not taking Battle Rage other than taking up 1 of 6 slots. There is a lot of utility to be found in many other skills that could replace battle rage, but nothing that even comes close to matching 100% more damage for 30 seconds(no CD).
Honestly all they need to do is add that CD, and maybe it already has one...
However, in the case of Frenzy it has competition. Bash has a rune that gives 80% with more up front damage. Cleave has much higher upfront damage and tons of AoE damage.
There are tradeoffs. Frenzy would obviously be the best choice of the 3 fury builders if you want to drop big earthquakes or other hard hitting abilities.
Battle Rage stands alone though, because you don't have to trade anything (besides other Battle Rage runes)to get the 100% bonus. It is up for 30 seconds, which may as well be forever in Diablo.
So Frenzy isn't really an issue. I don't see a solution to Battle Rage however. Every Barb will need it unless they have a special build that definitely requires 6 other skills.
Another point though, crit barb or not, they are going to want Battle Rage. That won't be a factor in the decision.
Crit damage and attack are still equal in value, given an equal crit chance. I am not sure I see much point in not having a high crit chance given some of the tradeoffs, if you are going pure damage. Otherwise, the utility may be enough to trade away 40% crit chance.
Ok, we'll do straight math. I'm sure everyone already knows the whole 5x5=25 is better than 9x1 = 9 argument you've made above. The crazy biased build was to draw attention to how radical damage outputs can be when basic runes on the same skills are changed.
I would like to clarify that the point of removing most of the crit from the damage build was to simply make it a damage build, whereas the crit build abused the high crit% increasing runes.
At any rate, one thing I was trying to point out is just how ridiculous the formulas make skills like battle rage/wizard's familiar/whatever.
With crimson battle rage, and crimson frenzy in PVE, there is no other combination of skills that allows the barb to reach the raw damage.
The 500 attack/crit damage barb with these abilities and a modest 60% crit rate will do 6,600 non-crit damage with a 100% weapon damage move.
It would take 2640 attack for the non-crit barb to do that much damage with a non-crit attack using a 100% weapon damage move....
That is of course, unless they utilize the formulas (the thing this topic is about) that completely centralize the stats that builds need to obtain in order to do damage. Add crimson to battle rage/frezny, you suddenly do more than TRIPPLE your previous damage. What other sustainable skills does the barb has that allows any of the other billions of builds to compete with this? What I'm trying to say is that you must abuse the formulas to get damage, otherwise you wont.
Battle Rage isn't going to triple your damage. Please take a look at my math or run the numbers again. It will double your damage. That is it. Wherever you put battle rage into the equation it will never multiply end damage by more than 2.
I am not saying that isn't a lot, but overstating the difference by 100-500% is not helpful.
It is intentionally biased. One build is based off of crits, the other is based off of having a high attack attribute.
I don't see how replacing 4% crit rate and 100% increased damage with Rend helps the test... If you don't include it in the second build you should drop it from the first. If it were only 4% crit rate sure, but not including 100% flat damage in both builds invalidates the test.
Rend was included in the calculations. The runes were changed to differentiate the crit build from a non-crit build. Yes the example is extreme, intentionally.
Now I see it there at the end.... anyway, I really disagree with trying to use completely separate builds to determine whether attack is better than crit damage. It just doesn't make sense. It isn't a real test.
If you want to compare the two you need to equalize all other factors.
I'm glad this was noticed. As far as I can tell, it is true that the build with 900 attack will do LESS damage than the build with 500 attack, just because of the way damage is calculated in the builds.
Lets ignore builds and everything else for a moment, straight math.
This is a much better comparison, and it shows that % crit damage is superior given an equal crit chance. It also makes the point that yes, you would be doing half damage without Battle Rage, making that skill essential.
On the other hand, build 3 shows that focusing too heavily on +crit damage is not ideal either and with anything less than 100% crit rate would be worse than fully stacking attack. Even with 100% crit rate, a high crit damage build will not match a balanced build with the same 100% crit rate.
Everything above is consistent with your testing, and is how RPG's usually work when calculating damage.
You are right that Battle Rage seems essential to any Barb build. However, crit damage and attack are roughly equivalent.
The math where you compared builds is way off. The difference between rage and non-rage should simply be 100%, period. Not x6.
You need to fix your math and account for the 400 extra attack in your second build. Using a dps optimized build pitted against a random crap build is also not really the best way to illustrate how broken Battle Rage is.
I still say Frenzy is competitive with the other 2 rage builders, but it is obviously the top choice if you plan on spending a lot of rage on high damage skills.
If the 2 builds were relatively equalized(including crit chance) and you accounted for the 400 attack in build 2, then battle rage should show a clean 100% increase to it's build.
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So: [{(Weapon*Skill Weapon %) * Attack} * % Skill Damage] * Crit Damage % = obliteration
Thus, Frenzy(120), Battle Rage(100), Bash(80), etc would all simply add together and not continually multiple off each other.
+120% from Frenzy. Should be 462% weapon damage and 505% + all damage.
Thus with 500 attack and 500% crit damage:
[{(250*462%) * 500} * 505] * 500 = 145818
That is pretty serious on a crit. Or maybe not. Maybe Inferno Diablo has 5 million health.
If the math pans out as such, dropping Battle Rage should only lower damage by about 15-25% as opposed to a 50% cut.
I agree with you in general, but in comparison the other classes that get similar abilities are on Cooldowns, targeted area effects(still on CD), etc.
And I don't believe anyone has called for a nerf exactly... just pointing out what appears to be what amounts to a near required skill for dps barbs. Albeit, point out a little too emphatically and with hyped up numbers...
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
Apparently the un-runed Battle Rage adds 30% to end damage in the beta. The 100% will do the same.
I haven't looked at the gems, but 10 Attack = 10% damage so I am sure the barb won't have a problem keeping up in the gem department.
The point isn't about damage, or broken builds at all really. It is about a skill that is so good that people would be gimped not to take it. There is no apparent tradeoff to not taking Battle Rage other than taking up 1 of 6 slots. There is a lot of utility to be found in many other skills that could replace battle rage, but nothing that even comes close to matching 100% more damage for 30 seconds(no CD).
Honestly all they need to do is add that CD, and maybe it already has one...
However, in the case of Frenzy it has competition. Bash has a rune that gives 80% with more up front damage. Cleave has much higher upfront damage and tons of AoE damage.
There are tradeoffs. Frenzy would obviously be the best choice of the 3 fury builders if you want to drop big earthquakes or other hard hitting abilities.
Battle Rage stands alone though, because you don't have to trade anything (besides other Battle Rage runes)to get the 100% bonus. It is up for 30 seconds, which may as well be forever in Diablo.
So Frenzy isn't really an issue. I don't see a solution to Battle Rage however. Every Barb will need it unless they have a special build that definitely requires 6 other skills.
Another point though, crit barb or not, they are going to want Battle Rage. That won't be a factor in the decision.
Crit damage and attack are still equal in value, given an equal crit chance. I am not sure I see much point in not having a high crit chance given some of the tradeoffs, if you are going pure damage. Otherwise, the utility may be enough to trade away 40% crit chance.
Battle Rage isn't going to triple your damage. Please take a look at my math or run the numbers again. It will double your damage. That is it. Wherever you put battle rage into the equation it will never multiply end damage by more than 2.
I am not saying that isn't a lot, but overstating the difference by 100-500% is not helpful.
I don't see how replacing 4% crit rate and 100% increased damage with Rend helps the test... If you don't include it in the second build you should drop it from the first. If it were only 4% crit rate sure, but not including 100% flat damage in both builds invalidates the test.
Now I see it there at the end.... anyway, I really disagree with trying to use completely separate builds to determine whether attack is better than crit damage. It just doesn't make sense. It isn't a real test.
If you want to compare the two you need to equalize all other factors.
Lets ignore builds and everything else for a moment, straight math.
Both: Equal Crit Chance, Equal Builds
Build 1: 500 Attack, 500% Crit Damage, Battle Rage 100%
250 Weapon DPS + Random 100% weapon damage skill = 250 damage
250 damage * 500% = 1250 non-crit
1250 * 500% = 6250 crit
6250 * 100% = 12500 Rage
Build 2: 900 Attack, 100% Crit Damage, Battle Rage 100%
250 damage * 900% = 2250 non-crit
2250 * 100% = 4500 crit
4500 * 100% = 9000 Rage
This is a much better comparison, and it shows that % crit damage is superior given an equal crit chance. It also makes the point that yes, you would be doing half damage without Battle Rage, making that skill essential.
Build 3: 100 Attack, 900% Crit Damage, Battle Rage 100%
250 damage * 100% = 500 non-crit
500 * 900% = 4500 crit
4500 * 100% = 9000 Rage
On the other hand, build 3 shows that focusing too heavily on +crit damage is not ideal either and with anything less than 100% crit rate would be worse than fully stacking attack. Even with 100% crit rate, a high crit damage build will not match a balanced build with the same 100% crit rate.
Everything above is consistent with your testing, and is how RPG's usually work when calculating damage.
You are right that Battle Rage seems essential to any Barb build. However, crit damage and attack are roughly equivalent.
The math where you compared builds is way off. The difference between rage and non-rage should simply be 100%, period. Not x6.
I still say Frenzy is competitive with the other 2 rage builders, but it is obviously the top choice if you plan on spending a lot of rage on high damage skills.
If the 2 builds were relatively equalized(including crit chance) and you accounted for the 400 attack in build 2, then battle rage should show a clean 100% increase to it's build.