The Blizzard fanbase might not believe in the idea that they can mold the game with their feedback, because the actual changes almost never match their own ideas 1:1, and take months to be implemented and tested, but I'm sure they're listening to all reasonable arguments and discussing what's the best way to balance all those.
@Shaggy even in the old system you'd have to "find" your own items to be able to transmogrify them (no trading). I'm pretty sure we knew that before knowing anything about this soulbound feature. Just a friendly fyi
Also man, slow down... you're gonna explode brah (I can't help but picture you typing these last posts with an angry face at your keyboard and monitor lol..)
^ gotta take into account how we might wanna get as many Legendaries as possible in order to try them in RoS, if they're really become as interesting as we're expecting them to.
Also, Transmogrify will require that you find said Legendary. In that context, "hunting" an item might become quite a "chore" if you don't find it after 50-60 hours.
And I think Dimebog was alluding more to the effect that the AH (or third party websites) have in your game. They show you how meaningless your efforts are when compared to what is the average of the rest of the playerbase. It reminds you of how, no matter if you play 5 hours tonight, chances are you won't achieve anything neither in the short or long term.
Because the basic idea of an RNG-based loot system is that everyone has a shot? By definition we are ALL entitled to feel like any particular item is within reach. Part of "feeling like any particular item is within reach" demands that, in case of bad luck, we have some kind of recourse. That's what Gheed was, that's what Haedrig was supposed to be, that's what crafting in PoE is. Even though these systems are all based in RNG, they give you the "ok you picked up 40 yellows so now you can make one more new one of your choosing" level of control that makes it feel not quite as bad. They provide recourse against being subject to pure RNG. That's exactly what trading does.
18 months into D3 I've still yet to find ANY Mempo. By the time I find one it won't be remotely relevant. So, yes, i think people should have a REASONABLE shot to find quality items before they become irrelevant and if that means I have to trade 12 Lacuni Prowlers (because that's how RNG has treated me) for one Mempo of Twilight, so be it.
I was talking yesterday to overneathe about a Ladder system that implements a system to counter that.
The reward being "some" control over that. As in if you complete certain milestones (elite kills? boss kills? bounties? neph rifts? "x" dmg dealt to other players?) one of the prizes could be "choosing" the Legendary that you want.
As far as rewards go, I don't think a lot of people care a lot about "vanity" items in a Diablo game (as was suggested in the past). And I don't think "exclusive Ladder items" is something that would work nowadays either. Instead, it would be a very unique prize in the sense that you get to circumvent some RNG if you wanna try a specific Legendary/Set.
It's a work-in-progress idea, though. Hopefully I'll find some time in this weekend's holiday to "publish" it with neat little photoshopped screenshots.
For me, that is the #1 complaint I have. And not that its not usable by me, but by ANYONE. I'm so sick of Legendaries that no class would touch under any circumstances.
I have found at least 103 Legendaries (At least I have that many Brimstones) that were totally useless. Couldn't even AH them. Every piece of gear I have is off the AH! And thats just wrong, wrong, wrong!!! That isn't the spirit of the Diablo series.
The Dev's related finding Legendaries to opening a present on Christmas day. And I for one, am sick of getting coal in my presents!
Again, I sincerely this sort of complaint is targetting the wrong game system.
It's not that the "Legendary" is bad. It's already automatically better than 90% of the rares, and even in it's "worst state" it's quite useable in Inferno low MPs (which is intended and completely related to the Diablo series).
The issue is how it's "useless" compared (keyword detected) to the average gear available on the AH! If you can have good base stats, good crit, good all res in a 50k Gold set item, why even bother with that "meh" pair of Gloves?
Take that all away, start a self found character, and suddenly that mediocre Butcher's Sickle is amazing and greatly boosts the damage granted by that shitty Zuni's Trails you found earlier.
=> Bad Legendaries that even with good rolls can't be useful? I can 100% agree with that. They need to be better (and more frequently) reworked.
=> But all of the Legendaries are like that? Absolutely not! Even things like a Fragment of Destiny would be more useful if the base quality and power of gear wasn't so high (again, AH).
@Dimebog @riptide you both have actually very good arguments.
And they made me think that's what bothers me when I see someone complaining about "bad loot".
They're not complaining that the loot is useable or not, they're complaining that they don't find the absolute best top-10% loot in the game in a regular basis. They're complaining that they didn't find "dat 100 mil-2 bil item". But can we do that without breaking the RNG-based drop system?
I'm all for improving loot quality, I've said this before but I will keep saying it until these players start acknowledging it: Blizzard has freaking improved drop quality before. TENFOLD!!! BOTH with the Legendary/Set reworks (which became more than just "viable") and through ilvl and affixes adjustments, and then again by giving us Monster Power.
It's a neverending cycle.... They improve it, people play what they can, those 50-100 hours, and then proceed to complain it's not "worth it anymore". The AH makes this feeling even worse by allowing you to actually look how far behind the curve you've fallen (oh look, everyone is 6 months into the new drop system, aka my drops suck even more).
This particular feature (Soulbound) to me is a very clear indication that they don't want only the third-party website/forum lurkers to have an edge over everyone else. I'm not sure I agree with it yet (I have yet to hear actual good arguments from either side, and yet to hear the details on the system from a developer), but I certainly simpathyze more with their actual reasoning than I do with people complaining about abstract "bad loot" or "bad itemization".
"Some" off-topic discussion is ok (when it's not trollish or if it's not like 20 posts), and I can see a very minor relation with the online only and the discussion at hand, but we've moving a bit too much towards discussing DRM and other unrelated stuff.
And the amount of pages that these threads spawn (PvP, Ladder, Trading/AH/BoA/soulbound) with an insane amount of different views on it makes me realize how hard it is to actually choose a path, and defend it as the "right" way to design the game
@ruksak how would that work with item dropping mechanic?
If you drop an item for a friend, once he picks it up is it "bind on account" from that point onwards? Is that mechanic even possible, from a technical standpoint? And how do you convey that idea or explain to players that's how things work (it's pretty unintuitive imo)? If throwing things on the ground doesn't "bind" them, wouldn't bots and thir party websites still be able to function?
Just a couple doubts that came to mind. I kinda like the premise of the mechanic, though.
Which begs the question... what is "winning" in Diablo?
No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
When I get a legendary drop that I know I can only find - (not buy or trade for) - I will finally be excited when I see it drop.
I want to have that jump out of my chair and go go 'fuck yes' this is awesome. not many people will have an item like this so I feel pretty lucky.
This feeling I do not think can occur without a BOA model for top teir items.
Trading for the best items, or friends giving me them, will not make me jump out of my seat...
This is a legit concern. And probably why they decided to have more BoA/soulbound.
I'm starting to think thta probably the best way to handle this particular issue was to have 2 separate modes, a self-found mode and a free-market mode, and people can choose the lesser evil on their own. Even if it would severely segregate the community. Otherwise it's gonna be an eternal Trojans vs Greeks war.
Then again, I try and think about it...one of the reasons people like trading is that it can get them better items faster than just farming. So...if four strangers are in a public game, they all go out and do some Bounties and Rift Runs, it doesn't benefit them to just take what they get and run, one of the other three people in the game could have picked up something they need. Why not just ask "hey, anybody get X legendary? been looking for one."
This scenario is virtually impossible. 4 strangers play a game, one amazing item drops, player A gets it, B wants it. What could he offer for it? Cash? Gems?
If gold retains its value, I'd be more than willing to trade a Legendary that I found for some Gold, or maybe even Crafting Materials (if they're also useful for enchanting/etc).
I'd also be more than willing to just give it away to a clan-mate if I knew I wouldn't use it, and he got really excited about trying the item on his Crusader (like say, if you find a STR-based Legendary Shield and you're playing a Demon Hunter). The great social experience is worth more than some in-game cash to me
Let me jump in and point this interview to anyone who might be interested.
All the way down, in questions 8-10, you can see their reasoning behind this particular feature. It is a follow up of the "kill monsters find loot".
(they ask if BoA/soulbound would still be needed even thought the AH has been removed)
Basically, they explain that in a situation where a friend gives you an awesome item, an upgrade, that also creates a situation where you're not finding any upgrades for some time, and hence the "gameplay is not rewarding". And to an extent it is a similar effect to the one caused by the AH (their words, not mine).
So I'm just bringing some more info to the discussion. Keep the developer reasoning in mind when driving the discussion forward, because chances are in order for them to change it, the concerns in said reasoning will have to be addressed.
I have to say, people in this thread are getting WAY to crazy about a subject we have very little info and details about.
Wait till Beta is out and we have some numbers and info. Then you can go batshit if you want.
Could be too late.
If the noise in the forums gets loud about this subject, they can always clarify their position via a blue post.
Or they could change it, if we shout loud enough! But really, we don't have details on how that actually works, or their reasoning or if that is a final implemented system.
EleSaturate, It seems you can trade to party members, although you only have a limited time, and they must be in your party when it drops. A bit disappointing however that if I find something in solo play I couldn't put it aside for a friend.
It would be awesome if we could "mark" and item when it drops for a specific friend, or something like that. Not sure how that would work in a Diablo environment though, seems a bit too complex.
I'm not happy with that either @shaggy. I hope my post didn't convey that idea. As I said, big overreaction by them.
I wouldn't go as far as saying I wouldn't buy the game because of it, but it definitely is a negative thing in my eyes now. We just need more info and time to think about it. I don't like knee-jerk reactions to changes like these (even though sometimes said reactions are necessary).
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The Blizzard fanbase might not believe in the idea that they can mold the game with their feedback, because the actual changes almost never match their own ideas 1:1, and take months to be implemented and tested, but I'm sure they're listening to all reasonable arguments and discussing what's the best way to balance all those.
Also man, slow down... you're gonna explode brah (I can't help but picture you typing these last posts with an angry face at your keyboard and monitor lol..)
Also, Transmogrify will require that you find said Legendary. In that context, "hunting" an item might become quite a "chore" if you don't find it after 50-60 hours.
And I think Dimebog was alluding more to the effect that the AH (or third party websites) have in your game. They show you how meaningless your efforts are when compared to what is the average of the rest of the playerbase. It reminds you of how, no matter if you play 5 hours tonight, chances are you won't achieve anything neither in the short or long term.
The reward being "some" control over that. As in if you complete certain milestones (elite kills? boss kills? bounties? neph rifts? "x" dmg dealt to other players?) one of the prizes could be "choosing" the Legendary that you want.
As far as rewards go, I don't think a lot of people care a lot about "vanity" items in a Diablo game (as was suggested in the past). And I don't think "exclusive Ladder items" is something that would work nowadays either. Instead, it would be a very unique prize in the sense that you get to circumvent some RNG if you wanna try a specific Legendary/Set.
It's a work-in-progress idea, though. Hopefully I'll find some time in this weekend's holiday to "publish" it with neat little photoshopped screenshots.
It's not that the "Legendary" is bad. It's already automatically better than 90% of the rares, and even in it's "worst state" it's quite useable in Inferno low MPs (which is intended and completely related to the Diablo series).
The issue is how it's "useless" compared (keyword detected) to the average gear available on the AH! If you can have good base stats, good crit, good all res in a 50k Gold set item, why even bother with that "meh" pair of Gloves?
Take that all away, start a self found character, and suddenly that mediocre Butcher's Sickle is amazing and greatly boosts the damage granted by that shitty Zuni's Trails you found earlier.
=> Bad Legendaries that even with good rolls can't be useful? I can 100% agree with that. They need to be better (and more frequently) reworked.
=> But all of the Legendaries are like that? Absolutely not! Even things like a Fragment of Destiny would be more useful if the base quality and power of gear wasn't so high (again, AH).
And they made me think that's what bothers me when I see someone complaining about "bad loot".
They're not complaining that the loot is useable or not, they're complaining that they don't find the absolute best top-10% loot in the game in a regular basis. They're complaining that they didn't find "dat 100 mil-2 bil item". But can we do that without breaking the RNG-based drop system?
I'm all for improving loot quality, I've said this before but I will keep saying it until these players start acknowledging it: Blizzard has freaking improved drop quality before. TENFOLD!!! BOTH with the Legendary/Set reworks (which became more than just "viable") and through ilvl and affixes adjustments, and then again by giving us Monster Power.
It's a neverending cycle.... They improve it, people play what they can, those 50-100 hours, and then proceed to complain it's not "worth it anymore". The AH makes this feeling even worse by allowing you to actually look how far behind the curve you've fallen (oh look, everyone is 6 months into the new drop system, aka my drops suck even more).
This particular feature (Soulbound) to me is a very clear indication that they don't want only the third-party website/forum lurkers to have an edge over everyone else. I'm not sure I agree with it yet (I have yet to hear actual good arguments from either side, and yet to hear the details on the system from a developer), but I certainly simpathyze more with their actual reasoning than I do with people complaining about abstract "bad loot" or "bad itemization".
"Some" off-topic discussion is ok (when it's not trollish or if it's not like 20 posts), and I can see a very minor relation with the online only and the discussion at hand, but we've moving a bit too much towards discussing DRM and other unrelated stuff.
And the amount of pages that these threads spawn (PvP, Ladder, Trading/AH/BoA/soulbound) with an insane amount of different views on it makes me realize how hard it is to actually choose a path, and defend it as the "right" way to design the game
If you drop an item for a friend, once he picks it up is it "bind on account" from that point onwards? Is that mechanic even possible, from a technical standpoint? And how do you convey that idea or explain to players that's how things work (it's pretty unintuitive imo)? If throwing things on the ground doesn't "bind" them, wouldn't bots and thir party websites still be able to function?
Just a couple doubts that came to mind. I kinda like the premise of the mechanic, though.
No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
I'm starting to think thta probably the best way to handle this particular issue was to have 2 separate modes, a self-found mode and a free-market mode, and people can choose the lesser evil on their own. Even if it would severely segregate the community. Otherwise it's gonna be an eternal Trojans vs Greeks war.
I'd also be more than willing to just give it away to a clan-mate if I knew I wouldn't use it, and he got really excited about trying the item on his Crusader (like say, if you find a STR-based Legendary Shield and you're playing a Demon Hunter). The great social experience is worth more than some in-game cash to me
@maffia the webcam idea is neat.. but rule 31
All the way down, in questions 8-10, you can see their reasoning behind this particular feature. It is a follow up of the "kill monsters find loot".
(they ask if BoA/soulbound would still be needed even thought the AH has been removed)
Basically, they explain that in a situation where a friend gives you an awesome item, an upgrade, that also creates a situation where you're not finding any upgrades for some time, and hence the "gameplay is not rewarding". And to an extent it is a similar effect to the one caused by the AH (their words, not mine).
So I'm just bringing some more info to the discussion. Keep the developer reasoning in mind when driving the discussion forward, because chances are in order for them to change it, the concerns in said reasoning will have to be addressed.
Either way...
It would be awesome if we could "mark" and item when it drops for a specific friend, or something like that. Not sure how that would work in a Diablo environment though, seems a bit too complex.
I wouldn't go as far as saying I wouldn't buy the game because of it, but it definitely is a negative thing in my eyes now. We just need more info and time to think about it. I don't like knee-jerk reactions to changes like these (even though sometimes said reactions are necessary).