So far, the best compromise I've heard yet is the Bind on Trade angle. Once a piece of gear switches accounts, it gets locked.
The advantages to this are clear;
1) An effective item sink preventing saturation. i.e. no flipping.
2) Bot accounts cannot switch items to other accounts. They would have to operate differently and at risk of being caught and having accounts banned with loads of botted items being erased.
3) Legit players would be able to freely trade.
The disadvantages would be;
1) You couldn't loan items to friends and be able to get them back.
2) You couldn't trade an item you traded for previously to recoup your value.
People have to understand that with the AH's down, we'll see the same behavior from gold/item websites that we've seen for years in D2. That being, them entering open games en-mass, spamming their ridiculous adverts. A bind on trade may help cut this down substantially.
How does other players trading deter your enjoyment?
That's not what this discussion is about. Your trading doesn't affect me at all.
However, from a design stand point, it's Kevin Marten and cos. job to design a game where killing monsters is the best, most enjoyable way to get loot. And as everyone knows by now, the better loot you acquire, the less fun killing monsters is, since you have to wait longer for that next upgrade. Sure, high drop rates will make this happen anyway, but it's not like trading won't have the same result, if not quicker.
But that's the issue here.
Trading only gets you to the point where killing monsters is no longer fun that much quicker.
So if the drop rates for RoS require limititations on trading from a design standpoint, you are going
to experience that "finding better loot, less fun killing monsters, harder to find an upgrade" idea regardless.
Why aren't you in favor of allowing trading which should lead to lower drop rates thus increasing
your playtime towards finding better loot?
I'll say it since no one else will. I'd be fine with the drop rates staying the same as they are now, if only they "fixed" the loot. The roll ranges on Legendary items is so large, it seems that 92% of the time you get a Leg drop, it's useless. The roll range of an iLvL 60-63 Leg shouldn't vary from absolute garbage all the way to godly.
Apparently they're fixing this, as well, all Legs can roll at high iLvL's. Just these two things alone would make it seem like we're getting far more Legendary items. If they bump up the drop rate much at all, we're gonna be getting way too much. Our cups with run over, and I'm worried that they're gonna take it too far in a further desire to cater to noobs/casuals.
Diablo has many flaws and the best way to get the loot hunt back in diablo is with BoA legendaries and sets.
That is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
Could you please be reasonable? All these demands to just "fix loot" are not thought through. It's like asking them to finally cure Aids, after all those complaints about it..
You can't just do that. No matter how good and fancy items are on an individual basis and no matter how frequently they drop, 5 million other players will find anything before YOU do. And then you can get those items off them for virtually nothing (because they all compete with each other) long before you could ever hope to find them "legitimately".
You may personally not care ("self-discipline" and yadda yadda), but for example, I do. I don't climb a rope when there's a lift that everyone else uses. Feels just stupid. I'm all for the challenge but not in such cases.
Diablo has many flaws and the best way to get the loot hunt back in diablo is with BoA legendaries and sets.
That is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
In this interview with Thunderclaww , Travis Day says ALL legs and sets are BOA (except the game you’re in). no top tiers or anything, ALL.
He explains their reasoning (earn your loot) at around 11.30.. (he did say ..right now..) So it could change..
And crafting doesn’t get a major overhaul! (other that, any craft will be a smart “drop”)
Side note: I didn’t liked his answer about jewels, at all. ( as if more options would be bad)
Ya see....I don't get this?
"Earn your loot"?
Lemme take us back to an example from my D2 days. True story even; I found a Perfect 200% ED eth HoZ from meph (after years of never getting a HoZ and "working" hard to get one). By far, my best drop ever. Thing is, I already had a 198% non-eth (garnered from trade), and I really didn't have use for the Eth HoZ.
BUT....My Zealot needed a real weapon. So I traded the HoZ for a well rolled 415% EbotdZ.
How the fuck did I not earn that EbotdZ? Explain that to me, Travis? Explain how I got it for "free" after untold hours spent farming for a commodity worthy of trading for it?
THEN DON'T TRADE!!!
Reply after reply, all I see is "I can't resist handouts", or "I can't resist trading". What the hell's wrong with you that you can't avoid ruining your own fun?
If getting legendaries through trade is not fun to you, then DON'T DO IT.
I'm gonna jump in here and back Maka up, that he speaks what he actually does. He turned down an offer from me to give him 10mil HC gold to help him get rolling. He said "No thanks".
I've said it before here, I'll say it again. When developers start designing the game around concerns over 3rd party sites, they inevitably step on the toes of the majority of players whom do not engage in such practices.
When the developers start saying "Here's what we think you guys would have more fun with" and the majority of the people say "No. That's not what we think is fun".....it smacks the players as arrogant and disconnected.
I'll remind people of one of several incidents that came up in which this dynamic played out.
Individual identification.
Right off the bat, the majority of players threw a fucking fit about this. We asked, we pleaded and then we demanded they just let us ID-all. We were given a series of canned passive-aggressive responses from Blues...them telling us why we should like individually ID'ing items. For months this went on, and they half-ass fixed it, shortening the time it takes but still having us individually ID items.
We asked, we pleaded and then we demanded an ID-all. Again, a series of canned passive aggressive responses came our way, telling us what's best for "our" fun. Finally, after many months, they relented and the change was HUGE, in terms of the ebb 'n' flow quality of life.
We were right. They were wrong.
I see this Trade issue being much the same. At least we have time to curry their favor before this BAD idea is introduced into the game.
EDIT: To clarify: I'm not saying that people can't argue against this idea of BoA items - I'm pushing the point that many are taking this as if they said they are absolutely doing this and its a done deal.
Where I worry is when Travis said "In Reaper of Souls, The way it's gonna work is....."
Having played the console version for a few weeks now I have to say, I am all for the soulbound ideas. Trading becomes a moot issue when you find everything you need and then some. Heck, I have nothing that anybody needs because they too are finding everything they need! When everybody's needs are met by self found gaming, then trading becomes a thing of the past.
Which brings concern about how good this new itemization truly is. A good, dynamic and balanced itemization table will beg for active, healthy trading practices.
The way I see things going, people are going to ignore Rare (Yellow) drops altogether after a very short while.
So many exciting things in RoS that have me really looking forward to playing D3 again, and then this? Fuck.
What you said is paramount to the success of D3 going forward. I keep in touch with those D2 friends of mine whom left D3 long ago due to the known issues, via a private website we use to discuss gaming and sports.
I kept them updated about all the changes, posted vids and had them saying "WOW".
.....and then I posted the bit about Blizzard murdering trades. It was embarrassing. They laughed their asses off and straight said "FUCK THAT". So to your post above, that sentiment is carrying far and wide.
The game is not a sandbox. Let's just take it a step further and lose all restrictions and have everybody pose their own restrictions on themselves based on how they feel the game should be played then? Blizzard taking a unified stance on a mechanic has a purpose. Self imposing limits is self defeating. You put the limits on yourself, but don't actually feel engaged by it because it is for no real purpose, because for many it is a multiplayer experience and you want to play on the same footing as everyone else does.
This is exactly what happens, for example diablo 2 pvp as far as the game goes no rules really applied so what happend? Players make them up to make it work / better. If you played clan pvp there were very tight rules on, no pots / only one absorb item of each element / knockback was not allowed (1 or 2 exeptions) etc etc. Non of this was imposed by the game the players chose what they want to make things better / fun / fair.
In reality imposing limits on yourself is a vital part of becoming an expert in many areas especially sports. Once you can do a task to a good level you don't keep doing that same task for ever, you must make it more difficult often by limiting yourself. Then when taken back to the original task it will be esier and you better at it.
Sellf imposed limits are quite often the opposit of self defeating, even in a game (virtual) enviroment there must be some flexability.
Brilliantly stated.
I played a great deal of competitive GM Zeal duels in D2. The players had full control, and this is a key aspect in what made D2 so endearing to so many.
We had clearly stated, well known rules. We had prizes and structure for the tourneys....even websites to organize them. All 100% player controlled. We didn't need big poppa dictating control to us.
Blizzard seems to struggle with some serious egotistical issues.
Judging from the 20 or so screenshots from Blizzcon, the Legendaries will still have a huge random component (such as 4 random stats), so it surely won't be that easy to get the best loot.
Also, for me at least, D3 is all about playing with friends and trading with them. So it's perfect that you actually want to give an item you cant use to someone else, as opposed to selling it (which, lets face it, most people would do).
The problem I have with this is the god-awful 4-person per game limit. I always hated this, and will hate it even more now. I have a group of 10 or so friends, so there's always around 6-7 of us online, creating problems who will play with who, leaving the 5th player to play alone etc. This is especially a problem now that there's 6 classes and you can only fit 4 in the game.
What's really smacking me in the face is the punitive effect this has on player freedom and control over our own gaming experience.
I leveled a Barb to 60(4). I didn't care for it. Not my style. I won't be playing Barb. So......(hypothetical time). If I'm playing while I watch football (as I so often do), or have a number of other things going on throughout my Saturday, I may not want to play with friends, as I'll be going AFK on and off often.
So I made a choice to solo. I find an incredible Barb item. I am now punished for not doing what Blizzard is goading me to do...i.e. play with others or else. I'm stuck with this fuckin' thing.....it lost all value because control of my game experience was wrestled away from me by my thoughtless overlords, Blizzard inc.
I see the positives of closing down a rampant open trade system, killing D3jsp and other 3rd party avenues of trade. If Blizzard insists on this ideology, I gotta think some sort of inter-Clan trading system would be best. Time-stamp the item and make it tradeable only with other Clan members whom appear on the roster prior to the items time-stamp.
This would encourage Clan activity. As well, it would create a great dynamic for Clans to become powerful through inter-Clan trades. Bragging rights for the Clan, a bit of fun and some player born control.
In no way whatsoever is loss of control and freedom a good thing.
Why don't they make items tradeable between clan members?
Lol. "WTT MEMPHO, PST for CLAN INVITE"
Diablo 3 has absolutely no duping method aside from a rollback scam, which only witnesses sporadic duplication of handfuls of items. And many people get caught doing this.
It's time for a few of you to grow up and deal in facts. Simply "LOL?" will not make a case for whatever opinion you're trying to promote.
As for the second part;
If they can have such a complex system as they're talking about, than they could easily have a system that only allows items to be traded among existing Clan members that were on the roster at the time of item spawn.
There are honest ways to have a trade system in place. ...and you responding with "LOL" isn't making you look smart. I'm trying to help come up with solutions. Your'e just smart mouthing.
One very worrisome thing to me here is that Blizzard is essentially saying clearly, the BiS items will ALWAYS be Legs/Sets. Rares are being declared as a clear second best. Which means, for players that play often, after less than a year, we won't even bother to pick up rares anymore. Why bother?
I've always said this and I'll say it again; Rares should be able to compete with Legendaries, minus a given special effect/affix.
This decision is taking one extreme to another, and there is plenty of reason to suggest that this one bonehead move could continue this trend of giving plenty of players plenty of reason to bitch....or worse, quit for good.
Have you guys played the console version? If so you know with hardly any effort you get every damn legendary and set item you need. Now that we know rare legend and set items will be BiS in RoS i highly doubt they will be hard to find.
This is what my fear is. I don't want OMFGodly items mashed up and spoon fed to me all day long.
Isn't that how it is now with AH?
I kinda doubt godly items will drop all the time. Just because legendaries will drop often, it hardly means they will always be perfect.
But it is something Blizzard should answer. When greatly increasing droprates, how do they plan to offer progress 6 months or 12 months down the road?
IF.....if you have the gold and/or are willing to spend cash, which I'm not.
Everybody has 1 thing in common; We all play the game. If playing the game means freakish drops become ordinary fare......... PC D3 is starting to look like the console.
The quality of drops needs greatly improved. The nonsensical randomness needs cleaned up. But the rate CANNOT be so dramatic that finding the best items is only a matter of playing for a few hours here and there.
Have you guys played the console version? If so you know with hardly any effort you get every damn legendary and set item you need. Now that we know rare legend and set items will be BiS in RoS i highly doubt they will be hard to find.
This is what my fear is. I don't want OMFGodly items mashed up and spoon fed to me all day long.
I mean before D3 released if someone told you we would see a Diablo game with No skill trees, pvp or trading what would you have said?
What would I have said? I would've said most of my old D2 buddies wouldn't play that game......and I would've been right.
The advantages to this are clear;
1) An effective item sink preventing saturation. i.e. no flipping.
2) Bot accounts cannot switch items to other accounts. They would have to operate differently and at risk of being caught and having accounts banned with loads of botted items being erased.
3) Legit players would be able to freely trade.
The disadvantages would be;
1) You couldn't loan items to friends and be able to get them back.
2) You couldn't trade an item you traded for previously to recoup your value.
People have to understand that with the AH's down, we'll see the same behavior from gold/item websites that we've seen for years in D2. That being, them entering open games en-mass, spamming their ridiculous adverts. A bind on trade may help cut this down substantially.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I'll say it since no one else will. I'd be fine with the drop rates staying the same as they are now, if only they "fixed" the loot. The roll ranges on Legendary items is so large, it seems that 92% of the time you get a Leg drop, it's useless. The roll range of an iLvL 60-63 Leg shouldn't vary from absolute garbage all the way to godly.
Apparently they're fixing this, as well, all Legs can roll at high iLvL's. Just these two things alone would make it seem like we're getting far more Legendary items. If they bump up the drop rate much at all, we're gonna be getting way too much. Our cups with run over, and I'm worried that they're gonna take it too far in a further desire to cater to noobs/casuals.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Would you prefer if I said "improve loot"?
Semantics. The gateway to dishonest conversation.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
That is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Ya see....I don't get this?
"Earn your loot"?
Lemme take us back to an example from my D2 days. True story even; I found a Perfect 200% ED eth HoZ from meph (after years of never getting a HoZ and "working" hard to get one). By far, my best drop ever. Thing is, I already had a 198% non-eth (garnered from trade), and I really didn't have use for the Eth HoZ.
BUT....My Zealot needed a real weapon. So I traded the HoZ for a well rolled 415% EbotdZ.
How the fuck did I not earn that EbotdZ? Explain that to me, Travis? Explain how I got it for "free" after untold hours spent farming for a commodity worthy of trading for it?
Am I making sense here?
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I'm gonna jump in here and back Maka up, that he speaks what he actually does. He turned down an offer from me to give him 10mil HC gold to help him get rolling. He said "No thanks".
I've said it before here, I'll say it again. When developers start designing the game around concerns over 3rd party sites, they inevitably step on the toes of the majority of players whom do not engage in such practices.
When the developers start saying "Here's what we think you guys would have more fun with" and the majority of the people say "No. That's not what we think is fun".....it smacks the players as arrogant and disconnected.
I'll remind people of one of several incidents that came up in which this dynamic played out.
Individual identification.
Right off the bat, the majority of players threw a fucking fit about this. We asked, we pleaded and then we demanded they just let us ID-all. We were given a series of canned passive-aggressive responses from Blues...them telling us why we should like individually ID'ing items. For months this went on, and they half-ass fixed it, shortening the time it takes but still having us individually ID items.
We asked, we pleaded and then we demanded an ID-all. Again, a series of canned passive aggressive responses came our way, telling us what's best for "our" fun. Finally, after many months, they relented and the change was HUGE, in terms of the ebb 'n' flow quality of life.
We were right. They were wrong.
I see this Trade issue being much the same. At least we have time to curry their favor before this BAD idea is introduced into the game.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Where I worry is when Travis said "In Reaper of Souls, The way it's gonna work is....."
He sounded a bit resolute.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Which brings concern about how good this new itemization truly is. A good, dynamic and balanced itemization table will beg for active, healthy trading practices.
The way I see things going, people are going to ignore Rare (Yellow) drops altogether after a very short while.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
What you said is paramount to the success of D3 going forward. I keep in touch with those D2 friends of mine whom left D3 long ago due to the known issues, via a private website we use to discuss gaming and sports.
I kept them updated about all the changes, posted vids and had them saying "WOW".
.....and then I posted the bit about Blizzard murdering trades. It was embarrassing. They laughed their asses off and straight said "FUCK THAT". So to your post above, that sentiment is carrying far and wide.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Brilliantly stated.
I played a great deal of competitive GM Zeal duels in D2. The players had full control, and this is a key aspect in what made D2 so endearing to so many.
We had clearly stated, well known rules. We had prizes and structure for the tourneys....even websites to organize them. All 100% player controlled. We didn't need big poppa dictating control to us.
Blizzard seems to struggle with some serious egotistical issues.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
What's really smacking me in the face is the punitive effect this has on player freedom and control over our own gaming experience.
I leveled a Barb to 60(4). I didn't care for it. Not my style. I won't be playing Barb. So......(hypothetical time). If I'm playing while I watch football (as I so often do), or have a number of other things going on throughout my Saturday, I may not want to play with friends, as I'll be going AFK on and off often.
So I made a choice to solo. I find an incredible Barb item. I am now punished for not doing what Blizzard is goading me to do...i.e. play with others or else. I'm stuck with this fuckin' thing.....it lost all value because control of my game experience was wrestled away from me by my thoughtless overlords, Blizzard inc.
I see the positives of closing down a rampant open trade system, killing D3jsp and other 3rd party avenues of trade. If Blizzard insists on this ideology, I gotta think some sort of inter-Clan trading system would be best. Time-stamp the item and make it tradeable only with other Clan members whom appear on the roster prior to the items time-stamp.
This would encourage Clan activity. As well, it would create a great dynamic for Clans to become powerful through inter-Clan trades. Bragging rights for the Clan, a bit of fun and some player born control.
In no way whatsoever is loss of control and freedom a good thing.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Diablo 3 has absolutely no duping method aside from a rollback scam, which only witnesses sporadic duplication of handfuls of items. And many people get caught doing this.
It's time for a few of you to grow up and deal in facts. Simply "LOL?" will not make a case for whatever opinion you're trying to promote.
As for the second part;
If they can have such a complex system as they're talking about, than they could easily have a system that only allows items to be traded among existing Clan members that were on the roster at the time of item spawn.
There are honest ways to have a trade system in place. ...and you responding with "LOL" isn't making you look smart. I'm trying to help come up with solutions. Your'e just smart mouthing.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I've always said this and I'll say it again; Rares should be able to compete with Legendaries, minus a given special effect/affix.
This decision is taking one extreme to another, and there is plenty of reason to suggest that this one bonehead move could continue this trend of giving plenty of players plenty of reason to bitch....or worse, quit for good.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
IF.....if you have the gold and/or are willing to spend cash, which I'm not.
Everybody has 1 thing in common; We all play the game. If playing the game means freakish drops become ordinary fare......... PC D3 is starting to look like the console.
The quality of drops needs greatly improved. The nonsensical randomness needs cleaned up. But the rate CANNOT be so dramatic that finding the best items is only a matter of playing for a few hours here and there.
Strange times in the kingdom....strange times.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
This is what my fear is. I don't want OMFGodly items mashed up and spoon fed to me all day long.
What would I have said? I would've said most of my old D2 buddies wouldn't play that game......and I would've been right.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan