I just wanted to make a thread to better understand how the Thorns mechanic will work.
So...
1) Will the Thorns affix only affect melee attackers? It seems like that's all it does at this point. If so I guess they're keeping it like how Thorns was in D2.
2) I assume a character's Thorn damage will increase if they have a % increase damage buff, but will weapon damage have any effect on Thorns? It seems like it's just a flat amount based on items right now. This is different from D2 where it was a % damage returned.
3) Will Thorns count as active damage? For example, if you're a Barbarian with Tough as Nails and Bloodthirst, will the damage you do through Thorns mean increased health regen?
4) More of a comment... But if Thorns damage is based just on getting hit, rather than the amount you're getting hit for, I think it'll be much worse against enemies that attack slowly. Also, it'll be much worse against enemies who have higher damage attacks because you'll take more damage without your Thorns damage increasing.
2) Thorns damage is completely separate from weapon damage and currently only exists as a flat number (not a percentage of damage taken). I have no idea if a +%damage buff (like battle rage) would increase thorns.
3) Thorns does not seem to proc life leech. (sorry, Classic D2 Blood Golem!) I highly doubt it would proc any effects that happen "when you deal damage".
4) Thorns is definitely designed to work best on weak, fast attacking enemies. Right now it is a fairly strong stat (mainly because Beta enemies are really weak), you can get enough Thorns damage to kill everything by walking around and letting it hit you. It kills skeletons, scavengers and carrion bats REALLY fast. Big stuff like Unburied still takes a while to die.
If Thorns (as a stat) continues to scale with level and gear, I imagine some melee players will make entire builds around having very high single-target damage and letting swarms of weak enemies kill themselves off with Thorns. Even in the beta, Bash-centric barbarian builds are greatly helped out by wearing several pieces of Thorns gear.
Thanks for the reply... a lot of valuable info I didn't know.
The fact that it does damage to ranged attackers if you're in melee range is definitely crucial for people who want to make thorns builds.
To me it seems like it'll still have to be part of balanced builds because you can't really increase your thorns damage beyond the gear you have. And I agree that it's pretty unlikely it would proc anything that works on damage dealt.
That's a good point about making a build based around single target damage too, while also stacking thorns to damage lesser enemies. Single target skills + some kind of life leech or just life regen seems like it could be what people key in on for thorns builds.
It still bothers me that it doesn't work by reflecting a % of damage though. But I guess they don't want people running around in Inferno killing things by just getting hit. Or maybe the endgame gear you get is a lot better than I think it is after looking at datamined lists.
There are some quite interesting implications to a Thorns build.
It's possible that dodge reduces your damage. If you dodge an attack it didn't hit and so shouldn't reflect. Damage reduction shouldn't, it's still a hit. Armour and Defence are likewise damage reduction effects not hit negation effects. (Source: http://www.diablowik...tings_and_Stats ). So those should both proc Thorns.
It's also not clear to me which Witch Doctor spell effects count as minions for their minions gain thorns passive (Fierce Loyalty). Spells like Plague of Toads and Locust Swarm look more like nukes than summons and I suspect that these spell effects don't create targets for mobs to try to hit. But some of the rune effects may do - Spider Queen and Toad of Hugeness for example.
So there's probably a Witch Doctor build around Thorns items and as many summons that count for the purposes of Thorns as possible. Eg 4 zombie dogs, a gargantuan, a fetish army, a huge toad, a spider queen, etc.
Another question I have regards monsters that aoe. If a mob cleaves and hits 3 dogs do they take triple Thorns damage?
Fierce Loyalty requires level 45 so it hasn't been tested in the beta. I would assume that a mob cleaving 3 dogs would take 3x thorns damage, but it's not testable right now.
It still bothers me that it doesn't work by reflecting a % of damage though.
Keeping thorns as a flat number actually makes it a much more interesting stat. In the beta, stacking Thorns lets you kill off weak enemies incredibly quickly, but doesn't help nearly as much against Unburied (big slow guys). This makes it a more specialized stat.
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So...
1) Will the Thorns affix only affect melee attackers? It seems like that's all it does at this point. If so I guess they're keeping it like how Thorns was in D2.
2) I assume a character's Thorn damage will increase if they have a % increase damage buff, but will weapon damage have any effect on Thorns? It seems like it's just a flat amount based on items right now. This is different from D2 where it was a % damage returned.
3) Will Thorns count as active damage? For example, if you're a Barbarian with Tough as Nails and Bloodthirst, will the damage you do through Thorns mean increased health regen?
4) More of a comment... But if Thorns damage is based just on getting hit, rather than the amount you're getting hit for, I think it'll be much worse against enemies that attack slowly. Also, it'll be much worse against enemies who have higher damage attacks because you'll take more damage without your Thorns damage increasing.
1) It affects melee only.
2) Thorns damage is completely separate from weapon damage and currently only exists as a flat number (not a percentage of damage taken). I have no idea if a +%damage buff (like battle rage) would increase thorns.
3) Thorns does not seem to proc life leech. (sorry, Classic D2 Blood Golem!) I highly doubt it would proc any effects that happen "when you deal damage".
4) Thorns is definitely designed to work best on weak, fast attacking enemies. Right now it is a fairly strong stat (mainly because Beta enemies are really weak), you can get enough Thorns damage to kill everything by walking around and letting it hit you. It kills skeletons, scavengers and carrion bats REALLY fast. Big stuff like Unburied still takes a while to die.
If Thorns (as a stat) continues to scale with level and gear, I imagine some melee players will make entire builds around having very high single-target damage and letting swarms of weak enemies kill themselves off with Thorns. Even in the beta, Bash-centric barbarian builds are greatly helped out by wearing several pieces of Thorns gear.
The fact that it does damage to ranged attackers if you're in melee range is definitely crucial for people who want to make thorns builds.
To me it seems like it'll still have to be part of balanced builds because you can't really increase your thorns damage beyond the gear you have. And I agree that it's pretty unlikely it would proc anything that works on damage dealt.
That's a good point about making a build based around single target damage too, while also stacking thorns to damage lesser enemies. Single target skills + some kind of life leech or just life regen seems like it could be what people key in on for thorns builds.
It still bothers me that it doesn't work by reflecting a % of damage though. But I guess they don't want people running around in Inferno killing things by just getting hit. Or maybe the endgame gear you get is a lot better than I think it is after looking at datamined lists.
Fierce Loyalty requires level 45 so it hasn't been tested in the beta. I would assume that a mob cleaving 3 dogs would take 3x thorns damage, but it's not testable right now.
Keeping thorns as a flat number actually makes it a much more interesting stat. In the beta, stacking Thorns lets you kill off weak enemies incredibly quickly, but doesn't help nearly as much against Unburied (big slow guys). This makes it a more specialized stat.