Shard of Hate(lightning build)
Shard of Hate apparently does not scale twice with critical hits or attack speed, but it does scale with % lightning skill damage. It also has a roughly 1 second (I think) internal cooldown.
If you have a 225% damage proc on Shard of Hate and 80% lightning skill damage, the proc does 405% weapon damage per bolt and fires three bolts per proc. This makes its damage per proc strikingly similar to Odyn Son using my sample stats. However, Shard of Hate has an internal cooldown, so it doesn't scale infinitely with more targets. It should do about 405 * 3 = 1215% weapon damage, split among 3 targets in the maximum possible case.
So I estimate the damage at:
1215% (1 - (1 - proc coefficient)^((number of targets + 1) * attacks per second) ) (split among 1-3 targets)
Maximum: 1215% weapon damage/second (split among 1-3 targets)
(This means Shard of Hate looks really good with a high proc rate or smallish number of targets, but other procs start to surpass its total damage per second when there are large groups).
Preface: I want to theoretically compare the value of some weapon combinations for barbarians after the 2.0.5 patch. The impetuses for this thread were other recent threads talking about the BK weapon set and Nubtro's Game Mechanics (barbarian) spreadsheet on google docs.
Bul-Kathos's Set
After patch 2.0.5, Nubtro reported that, not only can the whirlwind proc from the BK set now critical hit, but also that the damage itself scales with your critical hit damage and chance (before it crits). The damage amount also scales with your attack speed, but because the BK set seems to have an internal cooldown, attack speed doesn't influence the amount of procs.
Your critical hit chance and damage apply twice to the BK whirlwind proc, so bascially those stats are squared when factoring the average damage. The damage is reported as 1950% weapon damage / 6 seconds, or 325% weapon damage / second. This 325% is multiplied by your attacks per second and critical hit/damage, so if you have 1.55 attacks per second, 40% critical chance, and 400% critical damage, you can expect to do:
325% * (1.55) * (1 + .4 + 4) ~= 1310% weapon damage/second in a circular area around your character
However, the BK proc seems to be on an internal cooldown of roughly about 12 seconds (in my personal experience- 2.0.4, so this may have changed). This means that the average damage over time will be about half the active damage/second, or about 655% weapon damage per second. Because of the internal cooldown, attacking multiple targets doesn't really increase the value of the proc.
So the estimated damage of the BK set proc in these circumstances is roughly:
Odyn Son
According to the information gathered in Nubtro's Barbarian spreadsheet, the reason why the Odyn Son proc seems so powerful is because it apparently scales with critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and attack speed twice.
i.e.: Your attack speed and critical chance/damage values are squared when multiplying the damage of an Odyn son proc.
The base damage of the proc is only around 100-120% weapon damage, but the base damage itself is multiplied by your critical hit stats and your attack speed. After this, the damage amount can be a critical hit, which uses your critical stats again, and of course the higher your attack speed, the more procs you can create (thus scaling with attack speed twice as well).
Let's say you have 40% critical chance and 400% critical damage. You also have 1.55 attacks per second and your Odyn Son does 100% weapon damage per hit (3 hits per proc). Each hit of the proc will do 100% * (1.55) * (1 + 0.4 + 4) =403% weapon damage.
(I think the above calculation is why a lot of people estimate that Odyn Son's proc does about 400% weapon damage. It does about 400% with those values of attack speed, crit damage, and critical chance, but it could do more or less.)
After you get this value, in our case 403%, the proc will hit 3 times, possibly all on the same target. These 403% damage procs can then critical hit again, boosting their damage further (by another 2.6 times in our case, on average), and the faster you attack (and the higher your proc coefficient), the more often you can trigger the proc.
So, say you have a 30% proc rate Odyn Son with the above stats. It does 1209% damage split between 1-3 targets. It will proc 30% of the time on every hit, modified by proc coefficient. Your attack speed dictates the number of proc chances, because there is no internal cooldown, so the damage/second is multiplied by your attacks/second.
The passive works fine in groups and thats what ww is good for. i try some other stuff for single targets.
Thanks for the quick and helpful answer
Edit:got 4,4 fury per sec from templar but it isnt enough, dont know why
Sorry, I was a bit off when I estimated the cost/sec as (as*3+7), more correctly it is ((as*3+7)/(as*3)) * (60/FLOOR(20/as))
This makes the cost higher that previously figured when sitting on a new breakpoint such as 1.82. I got about 5 fury/sec with this equation. Also, if you wield two different speed weapons, you may get a 'more expensive' whirlwind.
I hope somebody could help me with a problem of mine.
Had no luck with either odyns or Windfury, but i got Immortal set and running this build nowhttp://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Hirschkot-1973/hero/9093927
I got my aps above 1.82 so ww should tick 6 times per sec which leads to my first question: "Does Windshear count per tick?" (one enemy = 6 fury per sec)
If it does i got 6 fury from ww 4 from set and passive = 10 Fury per sec
WW uses 10 - 10% from reduction = 9 fury per sec
So i wanted to know if anyone has experience with berserker rage and whirlwind together
For me its seem to work with min 2 enemys but like i wrote above it should work with 1 enemy too.
except i ignored a mechanic from ww
I hope somebody could help me
See ya
Hey, whirlwind doesn't use exactly 10 fury per second, it scales with weapon speed (a tiny bit still).
However, Wind Shear reduces the cost of whirlwind per tick/hit, which should be 6 /sec with your attack speed. However, your ww probably costs about 13 a sec because of the extra attack speed.
This balances out, though, and using the math provided by Nubtro, Wind Shear effectively makes WW cost almost exactly 7 fury/sec in all cases (Edit: meaning all attack speeds, not including cost reduction). If you have cost reduction it'll help a lot, because it scales better with Wind Shear.
If you have 4 passive regen per second and Wind Shear, you're spending 3 fury/sec still. It'll be slightly more than -1/sec if you have 10% cost reduction, but it'll still be a net fury loss on one target without Hexing Pants. Once you get Hexing Pants or more -cost items, you can net fury on one target.
I'll edit this later to provide details, busy right now!
Okay, edit:
Whirlwind cost per tick is {(3 * attack speed) + 7} / (3 * attack speed)
You get roughly (3 * attack speed) ticks per second, technically (60 / FLOOR(20/attack speed))
So for estimates where you're near a breakpoint, you spend (3*attack speed) + 7 fury a second
Wind Shear recovers 1 fury per tick on 1 target, or roughly (3 * attack speed) fury per second
So you spend (3 * attack speed) + 7 - (3 * attack speed) fury = 7 fury per second, or actually slightly less because Wind Shear is affected by frame break points
When you add cost reduction to Wind Shear, the first [(3*attack speed) + 7] term gets reduced, but you're still subtracting (regaining) a fixed (3*attack speed), no matter what your cost reduction stat becomes. This means that cost reduction works better with Wind Shear.
If you generate 4 fury a second (IK 3 piece + Unforgiving passive), you have 10% cost reduction (from paragon points), and you use the Wind Shear rune with 1.82 attack speed, you can expect to spend (after Wind Shear):
So 4 regen/sec won't cut it, but if you add more cost reduction, or +25% regen from Hexing Pants (about 1 fury/sec, +25% more Wind Shear), it should do the job.
First, I think everyone should relax a little. I myself was not trying to insult anyone but rather have a discussion. I personally think I've explained every idea I've presented.
There are a couple points I'd like to address here (keep in mind these are my opinions):
First, IAS is not the best dps stat. It's pretty good in some situations, and it provides some utility, but it's not universally awesome. Likewise, cooldown reduction is not great for all builds. In reference to the original post, I don't think IAS is as good as critical hit/critical damage solely for doing damage. This is pretty good, though, because (outside of a few runes and items utilizing critical hit %), criticals don't provide any utility, just more damage. IAS, and its counterpart cooldown reduction, both provide good DPS when utilized intelligently as well as increased utility (procs, life on hit, lower cooldown on utility skills).
Second, IAS doesn't ever make you kill more slowly. In the absolute worst case, it can make you kill at the same speed, because the bottleneck is resource generation, but it's never strictly detrimental to have more attack speed. If given a choice between IAS and another stat, it may be better to choose certain other stats, but there's no reason to ditch all your IAS just becase it's IAS.
Third, IAS does reduce your animation time. There are some streamers who re-rolled a female barbarian just to save like 12 frames of animation or something. It does make an impact on how you play the game. I wouldn't say it's the most important factor to consider, but in every Diablo game, I can notice a big difference in 'responsiveness' between a low attack speed and high attack speed. If you're running rifts with a skill like frozen orb, bessed hammer, hammer of the ancients, or even archon, having a high attack speed makes playing quite a bit quicker in my experience. Of course, move speed probably has more of an impact, but move speed doesn't usually compete with attack speed, and this depends on the density of monsters.
Attack speed may not be the most important skill to determine how quickly you can kill in a group rift, but it's certainly not completely useless. One could argue that if a mob dies in anything less than a whole number of your skill casts, your bonus damage up to the next whole number is pointless.
For example: would you rather have your meteor crit a mob with 1 million health for 1.15 million damage, or crit for 1 million damage but cast 10% faster? If the 10% drops your cast animation by at least 1 frame, you'll go faster with the 10% attack speed.
Critical hit chance and damage are already factored into your sheet DPS. You don't have to pay attention to them at all when deciding on DPS upgrades. It doesn't matter how good you think crit % will be if the sheet DPS doesn't bear it out.
The front page post is correct, although you really can explain it more simply:
You lose 6.9% damage by swapping amulets.
As long as you are gaining 1/ (1 - 0. 069) or more damage as a percent from your new amulet's skill damage, it's a damage upgrade.
In this case, 1/(1 - 0.069) is 1.074, so if you swapped amulets, the crit % amulet would show a 7.4% 'upgrade'.
So, you have a choice of 7.4% sheet damage or 12% real damage (assuming you have no other +lightning damage). You should pick the 12%.
If you for some reason value crit % highly for a utility purpose, then maybe it's worth the DPS loss, but it's still a DPS loss (unless you're wearing a ton of other +lightning damage gear already).
First off, Strength and Dexterity do next to nothing for wizards (just a small amount of bonus armor and dodge, respectively). Intelligence and Vitality are the only primary stats that matter for wizards.
If the game shows your pants as green upgrades in damage, toughness, and healing, they're probably worth using. 2 sockets in leg armor are generally sought-after (as are 3 sockets in chest armor). The pants must have a lot of Intelligence to make up for the loss of 1% crit and attack speed, or your critical damage must be low, causing critical chance to be relatively ineffective for raising your damage.
As a quick rule, try to balance your critical hit damage to be approximately 10x your critical hit chance. So if you have 30% crit chance, you can get up to 300% total crit damage before you should consider focusing on more crit chance.
Attack speed is independent of your crit chance or damage, and generally is an effective way to increase your DPS if crit dmg/chance are in balance. The only time attack speed won't help your real damage output is if you're using mostly spells on a cooldown instead of spells you can repeatedly cast in sequence.
The only stats on gear that won't factor into the green and red numbers are those with an orange diamond bullet point on the tooltip- for example: +10% lightning skill damage, +25% damage versus elites, chance to shoot a fireball on attack, etc.
As long as the damage and toughness numbers are green on an upgrade, it's probably better for you. Depending on your build, this may change, but in general, green numbers mean better.
The main damage stats for a wizard are: Intelligence, attack speed, critical hit chance, critical hit damage (and thus socketed weapons). Additional stats are: +% damage to element (fire, cold, etc), +% damage to skill (disintegrate, meteor, etc), +min-max damage (often on rings, such as +30-60 damage). +% damage to elites is very helpful for farming bosses or champion/named monsters. +% damage to demons can be useful depending on the act in which you play.
I used a similar build yesterday when starting RoS on my barbarian.
Lahar is great for high-frequency avalanches, but I also found Glacier to be highly useful against mobile enemies because it more or less guarantees full damage from the avalanche, and it also holds mobs in place while you whirlwind. It was especially useful after a pull (Wrenching Smash or, in my case, Call of Arreat). Against bosses, I used Volcano for the higher DPS.
My only complaint about avalanche is that it doesn't have synergy with Wind Shear when using +elemental skill damage % equipment. I don't use other spenders or cooldowns on my barbarian. I'd probably use it over earthquake in most cases though.
1
Shard of Hate apparently does not scale twice with critical hits or attack speed, but it does scale with % lightning skill damage. It also has a roughly 1 second (I think) internal cooldown.
If you have a 225% damage proc on Shard of Hate and 80% lightning skill damage, the proc does 405% weapon damage per bolt and fires three bolts per proc. This makes its damage per proc strikingly similar to Odyn Son using my sample stats. However, Shard of Hate has an internal cooldown, so it doesn't scale infinitely with more targets. It should do about 405 * 3 = 1215% weapon damage, split among 3 targets in the maximum possible case.
So I estimate the damage at:
(This means Shard of Hate looks really good with a high proc rate or smallish number of targets, but other procs start to surpass its total damage per second when there are large groups).
4
Bul-Kathos's Set
After patch 2.0.5, Nubtro reported that, not only can the whirlwind proc from the BK set now critical hit, but also that the damage itself scales with your critical hit damage and chance (before it crits). The damage amount also scales with your attack speed, but because the BK set seems to have an internal cooldown, attack speed doesn't influence the amount of procs.
Your critical hit chance and damage apply twice to the BK whirlwind proc, so bascially those stats are squared when factoring the average damage. The damage is reported as 1950% weapon damage / 6 seconds, or 325% weapon damage / second. This 325% is multiplied by your attacks per second and critical hit/damage, so if you have 1.55 attacks per second, 40% critical chance, and 400% critical damage, you can expect to do:
325% * (1.55) * (1 + .4 + 4) ~= 1310% weapon damage/second in a circular area around your character
However, the BK proc seems to be on an internal cooldown of roughly about 12 seconds (in my personal experience- 2.0.4, so this may have changed). This means that the average damage over time will be about half the active damage/second, or about 655% weapon damage per second. Because of the internal cooldown, attacking multiple targets doesn't really increase the value of the proc.
So the estimated damage of the BK set proc in these circumstances is roughly:
Odyn Son
According to the information gathered in Nubtro's Barbarian spreadsheet, the reason why the Odyn Son proc seems so powerful is because it apparently scales with critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and attack speed twice.
i.e.: Your attack speed and critical chance/damage values are squared when multiplying the damage of an Odyn son proc.
The base damage of the proc is only around 100-120% weapon damage, but the base damage itself is multiplied by your critical hit stats and your attack speed. After this, the damage amount can be a critical hit, which uses your critical stats again, and of course the higher your attack speed, the more procs you can create (thus scaling with attack speed twice as well).
Let's say you have 40% critical chance and 400% critical damage. You also have 1.55 attacks per second and your Odyn Son does 100% weapon damage per hit (3 hits per proc). Each hit of the proc will do 100% * (1.55) * (1 + 0.4 + 4) =403% weapon damage.
(I think the above calculation is why a lot of people estimate that Odyn Son's proc does about 400% weapon damage. It does about 400% with those values of attack speed, crit damage, and critical chance, but it could do more or less.)
After you get this value, in our case 403%, the proc will hit 3 times, possibly all on the same target. These 403% damage procs can then critical hit again, boosting their damage further (by another 2.6 times in our case, on average), and the faster you attack (and the higher your proc coefficient), the more often you can trigger the proc.
So, say you have a 30% proc rate Odyn Son with the above stats. It does 1209% damage split between 1-3 targets. It will proc 30% of the time on every hit, modified by proc coefficient. Your attack speed dictates the number of proc chances, because there is no internal cooldown, so the damage/second is multiplied by your attacks/second.
This damage is estimated at:
1
This makes the cost higher that previously figured when sitting on a new breakpoint such as 1.82. I got about 5 fury/sec with this equation. Also, if you wield two different speed weapons, you may get a 'more expensive' whirlwind.
1
However, Wind Shear reduces the cost of whirlwind per tick/hit, which should be 6 /sec with your attack speed. However, your ww probably costs about 13 a sec because of the extra attack speed.
This balances out, though, and using the math provided by Nubtro, Wind Shear effectively makes WW cost almost exactly 7 fury/sec in all cases (Edit: meaning all attack speeds, not including cost reduction). If you have cost reduction it'll help a lot, because it scales better with Wind Shear.
If you have 4 passive regen per second and Wind Shear, you're spending 3 fury/sec still. It'll be slightly more than -1/sec if you have 10% cost reduction, but it'll still be a net fury loss on one target without Hexing Pants. Once you get Hexing Pants or more -cost items, you can net fury on one target.
I'll edit this later to provide details, busy right now!
Okay, edit:
Whirlwind cost per tick is {(3 * attack speed) + 7} / (3 * attack speed)
You get roughly (3 * attack speed) ticks per second, technically (60 / FLOOR(20/attack speed))
So for estimates where you're near a breakpoint, you spend (3*attack speed) + 7 fury a second
Wind Shear recovers 1 fury per tick on 1 target, or roughly (3 * attack speed) fury per second
So you spend (3 * attack speed) + 7 - (3 * attack speed) fury = 7 fury per second, or actually slightly less because Wind Shear is affected by frame break points
When you add cost reduction to Wind Shear, the first [(3*attack speed) + 7] term gets reduced, but you're still subtracting (regaining) a fixed (3*attack speed), no matter what your cost reduction stat becomes. This means that cost reduction works better with Wind Shear.
If you generate 4 fury a second (IK 3 piece + Unforgiving passive), you have 10% cost reduction (from paragon points), and you use the Wind Shear rune with 1.82 attack speed, you can expect to spend (after Wind Shear):
[(3 * 1.82) + 7] * (90%) - (60 / FLOOR(20/1.82)) = 5.214 fury/second
So 4 regen/sec won't cut it, but if you add more cost reduction, or +25% regen from Hexing Pants (about 1 fury/sec, +25% more Wind Shear), it should do the job.
1
There are a couple points I'd like to address here (keep in mind these are my opinions):
First, IAS is not the best dps stat. It's pretty good in some situations, and it provides some utility, but it's not universally awesome. Likewise, cooldown reduction is not great for all builds. In reference to the original post, I don't think IAS is as good as critical hit/critical damage solely for doing damage. This is pretty good, though, because (outside of a few runes and items utilizing critical hit %), criticals don't provide any utility, just more damage. IAS, and its counterpart cooldown reduction, both provide good DPS when utilized intelligently as well as increased utility (procs, life on hit, lower cooldown on utility skills).
Second, IAS doesn't ever make you kill more slowly. In the absolute worst case, it can make you kill at the same speed, because the bottleneck is resource generation, but it's never strictly detrimental to have more attack speed. If given a choice between IAS and another stat, it may be better to choose certain other stats, but there's no reason to ditch all your IAS just becase it's IAS.
Third, IAS does reduce your animation time. There are some streamers who re-rolled a female barbarian just to save like 12 frames of animation or something. It does make an impact on how you play the game. I wouldn't say it's the most important factor to consider, but in every Diablo game, I can notice a big difference in 'responsiveness' between a low attack speed and high attack speed. If you're running rifts with a skill like frozen orb, bessed hammer, hammer of the ancients, or even archon, having a high attack speed makes playing quite a bit quicker in my experience. Of course, move speed probably has more of an impact, but move speed doesn't usually compete with attack speed, and this depends on the density of monsters.
Attack speed may not be the most important skill to determine how quickly you can kill in a group rift, but it's certainly not completely useless. One could argue that if a mob dies in anything less than a whole number of your skill casts, your bonus damage up to the next whole number is pointless.
For example: would you rather have your meteor crit a mob with 1 million health for 1.15 million damage, or crit for 1 million damage but cast 10% faster? If the 10% drops your cast animation by at least 1 frame, you'll go faster with the 10% attack speed.
1
The front page post is correct, although you really can explain it more simply:
You lose 6.9% damage by swapping amulets.
As long as you are gaining 1/ (1 - 0. 069) or more damage as a percent from your new amulet's skill damage, it's a damage upgrade.
In this case, 1/(1 - 0.069) is 1.074, so if you swapped amulets, the crit % amulet would show a 7.4% 'upgrade'.
So, you have a choice of 7.4% sheet damage or 12% real damage (assuming you have no other +lightning damage). You should pick the 12%.
If you for some reason value crit % highly for a utility purpose, then maybe it's worth the DPS loss, but it's still a DPS loss (unless you're wearing a ton of other +lightning damage gear already).
1
If the game shows your pants as green upgrades in damage, toughness, and healing, they're probably worth using. 2 sockets in leg armor are generally sought-after (as are 3 sockets in chest armor). The pants must have a lot of Intelligence to make up for the loss of 1% crit and attack speed, or your critical damage must be low, causing critical chance to be relatively ineffective for raising your damage.
As a quick rule, try to balance your critical hit damage to be approximately 10x your critical hit chance. So if you have 30% crit chance, you can get up to 300% total crit damage before you should consider focusing on more crit chance.
Attack speed is independent of your crit chance or damage, and generally is an effective way to increase your DPS if crit dmg/chance are in balance. The only time attack speed won't help your real damage output is if you're using mostly spells on a cooldown instead of spells you can repeatedly cast in sequence.
The only stats on gear that won't factor into the green and red numbers are those with an orange diamond bullet point on the tooltip- for example: +10% lightning skill damage, +25% damage versus elites, chance to shoot a fireball on attack, etc.
As long as the damage and toughness numbers are green on an upgrade, it's probably better for you. Depending on your build, this may change, but in general, green numbers mean better.
The main damage stats for a wizard are: Intelligence, attack speed, critical hit chance, critical hit damage (and thus socketed weapons). Additional stats are: +% damage to element (fire, cold, etc), +% damage to skill (disintegrate, meteor, etc), +min-max damage (often on rings, such as +30-60 damage). +% damage to elites is very helpful for farming bosses or champion/named monsters. +% damage to demons can be useful depending on the act in which you play.
1
Lahar is great for high-frequency avalanches, but I also found Glacier to be highly useful against mobile enemies because it more or less guarantees full damage from the avalanche, and it also holds mobs in place while you whirlwind. It was especially useful after a pull (Wrenching Smash or, in my case, Call of Arreat). Against bosses, I used Volcano for the higher DPS.
My only complaint about avalanche is that it doesn't have synergy with Wind Shear when using +elemental skill damage % equipment. I don't use other spenders or cooldowns on my barbarian. I'd probably use it over earthquake in most cases though.