I guess I don't understand why we're having the exact same conversation as we did when Ancients were announced. It turned out okay, but it's nothing great. Let's add another layer to our pound cake. It was a bad idea then, and it's a bad idea now. I realize that this thread has covered a multitude of opinions, but realistically, it'll turn out the same. "Oh hey, I got an Ancient Yang's Recurve... that would have been nice if it rolled Primal Ancient... Salvage." It is just power creep, just like ancients were.
Also, if Primals apply to secondary stats like CDR and RCR, it will only make matters worse. "You can only play this build if you get 2 Primal rings, a Primal neck, a Primal weapon, Primal gloves and Primal shoulders, because at that point you can have 100% uptime on Archon.
Just want to point out, if it is main mode, why are we getting Necromancers? Wouldn't that be something to hold onto for D4? Unless D4 is 12 years down the road and somebody pretty high up went all banana bonkers to get them in game before the end of the next quarter....
Honestly, I don't see a difference between primal ancients and paragon, except for the fact that one is RNG and the other is not.
I think it comes down to that: ancients/primal is the same as paragon/augments. One is a constant "time vs reward" scale, one is RNG-based. I prefer RNG-based. If I know "3 hours of playing tonight will yield me 3 more paragon levels" that doesn't motivate me. If I know that "in 3 hours of playing tonight, I might find the gg-rolled primal weapon I've been looking for" that's exciting. That's what always kept me going in D2, and it's why I was farming bounties to re-roll Tal amulets recently.
So in the end, it's a matter of preference and I guess we can agree to disagree because we have different desires and expectations with regard to our gaming sessions
I guess maybe we all have different perspectives here, but how did you say the same thing twice and try to make a choice between the two? I mean that truly. RNG is RNG, whether you're grinding paragons, or just generally farming, you'll still find X items. Right? When farming paragons, you're also getting loot drops, usually at break-neck speeds no less. So I guess it's your perspective that it's not farming paragons, but maybe a decent item drop. Paragons serve the purpose that even if you don't get a good drop, at least your 3 hours weren't a complete wash.
I'm not against the grind, or the RNG. What I am against is the creep for the sake of creep. Remember when they were tweaking one or two sets per class per season? Those were good days. Remember when the cube came out and absolutely changed every build out there? Great times. Remember when Ancient items became a thing, and it went from, 'really well rolled items' to 'all ancient items' to 'all well rolled ancient items'? "The more you play the better your chance". GG or gtfo? I liked the idea of LoN builds, I truly did, until I realized in PTR that it required near perfect RNG (or at the very least, hours to farm bounties and souls for rerolls) You have to get both rings, ancient, with decent rolls, else the whole build is weak. Sure, they played to the diversity of Affixes, though 89% of them use a combination of Cindercoat, Magefist, Aquilla Cuirass, Leoric's Crown, and Nemisis Bracers.
I guess the real question is, what does this, on every level, bring to the game that isn't already there? The answer is power creep and more RNG. Basically means people will just spend more time farming DBs and using mats in the cube for their Primal Wand of Woh, kuz Ancient isn't quite good enough anymore... Sad.
I'm sorry, but how is this a good thing? The state of the game right now, if it's not ancient, and it's already cubed, it's auto-sharded. All this change does is add another pronoun to the current statement "If it's not Ancient, it's garbage."
How does this not give the people who play more than 4 hours a day a bigger advantage? They already have more Grifts, more paragons, and more/better augments. Almost every other change is for the better, but this one just isn't sitting right. Especially when you consider how poorly Ancient items can already roll, nothing like a Manald Heal with RCR, %Life, Int and Vit rolling ancient with 600% damage missing from the affix. Or shoulders with RCR, %Life, RA and mainstat when you NEED Vit/CDR/AreaDMG. RNG is RNG, but it's similar to the WoW Legion Legendary debate. It's not fun getting a super rare item, that's bad, especially when the other option is such a big power boost that it makes getting ANYTHING LESS just depressing.
They could've added trinkets, new item slots, new item sets, anything else. Power creep for the sake of power creep is inherently bad.
If you earned roughly 5% more experience playing with 3 of your friends, that's more than enough. Or maybe with follower tokens +exp modifiers that made solo play viable that you actually want them with you, outside of being a debuff stick, proc modifier, or damage reduction. They could literally do anything with followers, and it would be a good thing.
I figure it'll work, and some of the pieces could be interchanged to probably make it work for Spectral Blade too. Either way, it's weird seeing the Vyr'Rasha do so well, and yet, LoN be so far behind. Which is supposed to be harder to gear for again?
Because "hack" "botting" "exploits" are all the same type of behaviour, many people just group them together. Comparatively drugs get the same experience. Fact is, they're completely different, but get treated the same. Look at the bans they handed out for the hellfire exploit. Or if you played wow, the 6 month ban for buddy users. And if you remember the world first lich king kill saronite bomb "exploit" that got an entire guild a month ban for 2 rogues using bombs in their rotation (as they should have been).
I find it funny that blizzard bans people for finding holes in their coding, almost as badly as people who go out of their way to manipulate the game.
I noticed this, and was extremely pleased with it.
1) The no sound/indication is a 'clipped' animation timing thing. Well accepted.
2) If it does skip the animation/sound, and does not upgrade your gem, then you didn't have 100% chance, and it failed.
3) If you have 100% upgrade chance, and you empowered the rift, it still means you have to have 100% chance on all 4 levels to guarantee an upgrade. Yes 90%'s can fail.
Basically, it's not failing due to this 'bug'... it's failing because your chance to upgrade sucks.
Blizzard got this little piece of software called Warden* integrated with their games.
Back in 2010 another company called MDY Industries (behind WoWglider) filed a lawsuit against them in the US, on the matter of what warden actually was doing. In the end Blizzard won in court twice, and they are within all the parameters of the laws (and EULA) to scan for software that they choose.
Warden (also known as Warden Client) is an anti-cheating tool integrated in many Blizzard Entertainment games. While the game is running, Warden uses operating system APIs to collect information about certain software running on the user's computer and sends it back to Blizzard servers as hash values to be compared to those of known cheating programs or simply as a yes/no response (whether a cheat was found).
On 23 June 2010 Blizzard updated the Warden Anti-Cheat Platform to version 2—named Warden 2.0—with World of Warcraft Patch 3.3.5.
Warden now scans Warcraft II and III game memory space only, with the exception of a few tools.
On 14 December 2010, the Ninth Circuit vacated the summary judgment with respect to the secondary infringement count and the DMCA circumvention count with respect to the static literal elements of content already present on the user's hard drive, but upheld the summary judgment on the DMCA circumvention count with respect to the dynamic nonliteral elements of content provided by the World of Warcraft servers. The summary judgment on the count of tortious contract interference was also vacated, but was remanded to the District Court for further consideration as a finder of fact.
Why can't I differ between different kinds of "cheating"? Some have more, some have less impact on competition tho. Thud has a pretty high impact ^This is the magic sentence
Edit: Just go ahead, try to push GR w/o THud, then go again WITH Thud. Then you should be able to understand the ppl who use it, that doesn't mean it also justifies its use tho.
But you are probably a person who never pushed GR (kinda obvious by the way you talk about things, this is no offence and if I am wrong I am sorry) and therefore have no clue about those things.
Actually, in Season 3 I was top 500 Barbarian for about 3 weeks, but I had alot of spare time to play, due to time constraints now, I don't have 8-10 hours to dedicate to a 4 player party to push with daily. As it is, we push GRs once a week for about 6 hours. We don't use THUD, bots or D3 helper. I speak in logic. To get more to the point, the problem I have with your post is the fact that it differentiates between forms of cheating. You don't say that one form of cheating is acceptable but another is not without condoning some form of cheating. That's not logical.
I really can't think of a great metaphor for this without getting graphic. Hmmmm, let's try... You wouldn't say that it was okay for a cop to shoot you for shop lifting, but it's okay if he stabs you.
When it comes to cheating, you're making the assumption that the impact on certain aspects of the game is what matters. Cheating is cheating, if it impacts even 1 section of the game, it's too much. Just because that aspect of the game doesn't bother you, makes it okay? That's basically what you've said.
(Input) Yes, the UI is outdated. Yes, some features of THUD would benefit a large portion of the playerbase. It's still TPS, still against the EULA, and still has more impact than any other program out there. The fact that you say that it's required to make leaderboards proves that point.
I won't take offence to your comments if you don't take any from mine.
Wtf are you talking about
I said, if you want to compete, you are forced to use it, which is undeniably true.
Then, as you mentioned, if nobody uses it, its not required anymore to compete obviously since everyone uses the same resources then.
Idk what you're on about
Also, yes, it applies to pretty much all forms of cheating. Some have more, some have less impact on competition tho. Thud has a pretty high impact
I'm really sure how you don't understand if you just reiterated what I said. So you're either defending the use of THUD by stating that it's required because even just 1 person on the leaderboards uses it, or you're stating that THUD is okay, but botting isn't. Which isn't logical at all. Literally that defense expands towards all forms of cheating, so you literally cannot defend THUD without defending botting as well. Which is why this letter has sparked such debate, because you also can't attack botting without attacking THUD either.
Why do ppl even bother about THud, those who complain about it have never ever pushed leaderboards and even if they will, they won't have success.
Thud is 100% needed if you srsly want to compete, even if you don't want to, you simply HAVE to because everyone else is using it (speaking about top ranks on leaderboards) and the advantage you get from using it is simply too big.
Botting is sth. different tho, lol @ that Redx guy, that was hilarious.
Sorry, but now I have to rip this apart too.
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So the logic is that the people on the leaderboards use it, anybody who wants to be serious about leaderboards, has to use it? Can I just say that this faulty logic can be applied to all forms of cheating, thus making any and all discussions about it pointless. However, the opposite logic is that if nobody used it, it wouldn't be required. What seems more legit?
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The "Clan Leader" video is just proof that you don't have to intellegent to bot, and also shows how much botters don't care about being caught. Without a swift response from Blizzard, this will just fixate this issue until it does.
I never said we are 100 % legit or that none of use uses turbohud. I actually said that more than 9 out of 10 top players does use it. Which indirectly means that there is over 90 % chance that anyone I play with also uses it.
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I chose to not sign the letter, because yes, I do use TurboHUD and who am I to justify if TurboHUD is more or less against the EULA than botting. I think it's wrong to say: "Hey, you can use this but not this". I think, even if you play like gabynator 16 hours a day and bot last 8, if you were told not to use TurboHUD you'd have less chance of getting top ranks than the other way around. I think TurboHUD is at least as powerfull as botting. But I think its a necessity, since the in-game UI is so crap that you can't see more than half of your buffs.
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I have nothing against people using TurboHUD, it's rather stupid if they don't and wanna have a chance being competitive.
"More than 9 out of 10" is 10. Unless we're slicing people. Again, all you've stated is "Yes, I cheat, but I cheat because <it's justified>." You can insert any excuse you want, but the idea is that you feel it's justified to do so. In your final statement you've added to that, saying that you condone cheating because everybody else is cheating. Great logic there, why don't we just drop the cause, and edit the EULA to omit botting/hacking/TPS and just go crazy? Why not change the base damage of a 180% weapon damage skill to a 5000% weapon damage skill, and then sell it for others viewing pleasure? Your imagery about winning the tour de france isn't even close.... So I'd edit it; Trying to win the Tour de France without blood doping while everybody else is. Cheating is cheating.
The letter is still about giving someone “the automated control of a character in a Game”. And you seem trying to justify botting just because its also a violation to the EULA like Thud. But thats a poor point. If two guys spent 5 years in prison; one for raping a kid and the other for a bank robbery, are they the same scum because they both spent 5 years in prison? I'd say no.
Please be clearer on your reference. Convicted Felon is a Convicted Felon, and those who sympathize are considered a vulnerable sector. Your logic can also apply to the idea that, because a man robbed a bank, he is willing to break the law given the opportunity. As such, he can be treated the same as your first example, because he is willing to break the rules, what rules is he going to break? If you don't abide by the law, you make a choice. Choices have consequences.
Is that why you didn't sign? At least if you're going to cheat, you're not hypocritical about it, right? Though speaking out about using TPS, when you're using TPS, kinda defeats the purpose. Many quotes have included, "I cheat because I have to, I cheat because everybody else does, I cheat because it's too good. I cheat because I'll never get caught, I cheat because your breath smells like kitty litter." All ridiculous claims, none of which are substantiated. People seem to think that by making these claims, that they are somehow crusaders of a cause. That thier cheating is justified. Something is lost in this ideal that two wrongs make 3 rights, and 2 lefts, why not? If we're just making it up as we go along... Why not go the full forty?
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Though you've provided snapshotted proof of others cheating, there are plenty of snapshots of you doing so as well. Glass house... Stones... Throwing...
1
I guess I don't understand why we're having the exact same conversation as we did when Ancients were announced. It turned out okay, but it's nothing great. Let's add another layer to our pound cake. It was a bad idea then, and it's a bad idea now. I realize that this thread has covered a multitude of opinions, but realistically, it'll turn out the same. "Oh hey, I got an Ancient Yang's Recurve... that would have been nice if it rolled Primal Ancient... Salvage." It is just power creep, just like ancients were.
Also, if Primals apply to secondary stats like CDR and RCR, it will only make matters worse. "You can only play this build if you get 2 Primal rings, a Primal neck, a Primal weapon, Primal gloves and Primal shoulders, because at that point you can have 100% uptime on Archon.
Just want to point out, if it is main mode, why are we getting Necromancers? Wouldn't that be something to hold onto for D4? Unless D4 is 12 years down the road and somebody pretty high up went all banana bonkers to get them in game before the end of the next quarter....
0
I'm not against the grind, or the RNG. What I am against is the creep for the sake of creep. Remember when they were tweaking one or two sets per class per season? Those were good days. Remember when the cube came out and absolutely changed every build out there? Great times. Remember when Ancient items became a thing, and it went from, 'really well rolled items' to 'all ancient items' to 'all well rolled ancient items'? "The more you play the better your chance". GG or gtfo? I liked the idea of LoN builds, I truly did, until I realized in PTR that it required near perfect RNG (or at the very least, hours to farm bounties and souls for rerolls) You have to get both rings, ancient, with decent rolls, else the whole build is weak. Sure, they played to the diversity of Affixes, though 89% of them use a combination of Cindercoat, Magefist, Aquilla Cuirass, Leoric's Crown, and Nemisis Bracers.
I guess the real question is, what does this, on every level, bring to the game that isn't already there? The answer is power creep and more RNG. Basically means people will just spend more time farming DBs and using mats in the cube for their Primal Wand of Woh, kuz Ancient isn't quite good enough anymore... Sad.
3
I'm sorry, but how is this a good thing? The state of the game right now, if it's not ancient, and it's already cubed, it's auto-sharded. All this change does is add another pronoun to the current statement "If it's not Ancient, it's garbage."
How does this not give the people who play more than 4 hours a day a bigger advantage? They already have more Grifts, more paragons, and more/better augments. Almost every other change is for the better, but this one just isn't sitting right. Especially when you consider how poorly Ancient items can already roll, nothing like a Manald Heal with RCR, %Life, Int and Vit rolling ancient with 600% damage missing from the affix. Or shoulders with RCR, %Life, RA and mainstat when you NEED Vit/CDR/AreaDMG. RNG is RNG, but it's similar to the WoW Legion Legendary debate. It's not fun getting a super rare item, that's bad, especially when the other option is such a big power boost that it makes getting ANYTHING LESS just depressing.
They could've added trinkets, new item slots, new item sets, anything else. Power creep for the sake of power creep is inherently bad.
If you earned roughly 5% more experience playing with 3 of your friends, that's more than enough. Or maybe with follower tokens +exp modifiers that made solo play viable that you actually want them with you, outside of being a debuff stick, proc modifier, or damage reduction. They could literally do anything with followers, and it would be a good thing.
Instead we get Primal Ancients? What a joke.
0
0
http://www.d3planner.com/601210822 Fixed it. It still probably won't push GR 90 without massive paragon levels, but hey, it could be fun.
Also toyed about with this; http://www.d3planner.com/292791330 and http://www.d3planner.com/335470156
I figure it'll work, and some of the pieces could be interchanged to probably make it work for Spectral Blade too. Either way, it's weird seeing the Vyr'Rasha do so well, and yet, LoN be so far behind. Which is supposed to be harder to gear for again?
0
Because "hack" "botting" "exploits" are all the same type of behaviour, many people just group them together. Comparatively drugs get the same experience. Fact is, they're completely different, but get treated the same. Look at the bans they handed out for the hellfire exploit. Or if you played wow, the 6 month ban for buddy users. And if you remember the world first lich king kill saronite bomb "exploit" that got an entire guild a month ban for 2 rogues using bombs in their rotation (as they should have been).
I find it funny that blizzard bans people for finding holes in their coding, almost as badly as people who go out of their way to manipulate the game.
1
I noticed this, and was extremely pleased with it.
1) The no sound/indication is a 'clipped' animation timing thing. Well accepted.
2) If it does skip the animation/sound, and does not upgrade your gem, then you didn't have 100% chance, and it failed.
3) If you have 100% upgrade chance, and you empowered the rift, it still means you have to have 100% chance on all 4 levels to guarantee an upgrade. Yes 90%'s can fail.
Basically, it's not failing due to this 'bug'... it's failing because your chance to upgrade sucks.
0
On 23 June 2010 Blizzard updated the Warden Anti-Cheat Platform to version 2—named Warden 2.0—with World of Warcraft Patch 3.3.5.
Warden now scans Warcraft II and III game memory space only, with the exception of a few tools.
On 14 December 2010, the Ninth Circuit vacated the summary judgment with respect to the secondary infringement count and the DMCA circumvention count with respect to the static literal elements of content already present on the user's hard drive, but upheld the summary judgment on the DMCA circumvention count with respect to the dynamic nonliteral elements of content provided by the World of Warcraft servers. The summary judgment on the count of tortious contract interference was also vacated, but was remanded to the District Court for further consideration as a finder of fact.
Losing arguement?
0
Actually, in Season 3 I was top 500 Barbarian for about 3 weeks, but I had alot of spare time to play, due to time constraints now, I don't have 8-10 hours to dedicate to a 4 player party to push with daily. As it is, we push GRs once a week for about 6 hours. We don't use THUD, bots or D3 helper. I speak in logic. To get more to the point, the problem I have with your post is the fact that it differentiates between forms of cheating. You don't say that one form of cheating is acceptable but another is not without condoning some form of cheating. That's not logical.
I really can't think of a great metaphor for this without getting graphic. Hmmmm, let's try... You wouldn't say that it was okay for a cop to shoot you for shop lifting, but it's okay if he stabs you.
When it comes to cheating, you're making the assumption that the impact on certain aspects of the game is what matters. Cheating is cheating, if it impacts even 1 section of the game, it's too much. Just because that aspect of the game doesn't bother you, makes it okay? That's basically what you've said.
(Input) Yes, the UI is outdated. Yes, some features of THUD would benefit a large portion of the playerbase. It's still TPS, still against the EULA, and still has more impact than any other program out there. The fact that you say that it's required to make leaderboards proves that point.
I won't take offence to your comments if you don't take any from mine.
0
I'm really sure how you don't understand if you just reiterated what I said. So you're either defending the use of THUD by stating that it's required because even just 1 person on the leaderboards uses it, or you're stating that THUD is okay, but botting isn't. Which isn't logical at all. Literally that defense expands towards all forms of cheating, so you literally cannot defend THUD without defending botting as well. Which is why this letter has sparked such debate, because you also can't attack botting without attacking THUD either.
0
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So the logic is that the people on the leaderboards use it, anybody who wants to be serious about leaderboards, has to use it? Can I just say that this faulty logic can be applied to all forms of cheating, thus making any and all discussions about it pointless. However, the opposite logic is that if nobody used it, it wouldn't be required. What seems more legit?
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The "Clan Leader" video is just proof that you don't have to intellegent to bot, and also shows how much botters don't care about being caught. Without a swift response from Blizzard, this will just fixate this issue until it does.
0
http://www.twitch.tv/redx/v/22162318?t=6h28m00s Awesome.
0
0
Please be clearer on your reference. Convicted Felon is a Convicted Felon, and those who sympathize are considered a vulnerable sector. Your logic can also apply to the idea that, because a man robbed a bank, he is willing to break the law given the opportunity. As such, he can be treated the same as your first example, because he is willing to break the rules, what rules is he going to break? If you don't abide by the law, you make a choice. Choices have consequences.
0
Is that why you didn't sign? At least if you're going to cheat, you're not hypocritical about it, right? Though speaking out about using TPS, when you're using TPS, kinda defeats the purpose. Many quotes have included, "I cheat because I have to, I cheat because everybody else does, I cheat because it's too good. I cheat because I'll never get caught, I cheat because your breath smells like kitty litter." All ridiculous claims, none of which are substantiated. People seem to think that by making these claims, that they are somehow crusaders of a cause. That thier cheating is justified. Something is lost in this ideal that two wrongs make 3 rights, and 2 lefts, why not? If we're just making it up as we go along... Why not go the full forty?
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Though you've provided snapshotted proof of others cheating, there are plenty of snapshots of you doing so as well. Glass house... Stones... Throwing...