NO! You can not compare those games. Those 3 are PVP games. D3 is not a PVP game. That's a HUGE difference.
PvP has an ever shifting metagame (as long as balance is not utter shit). When the meta is A then people will try to counter it with B, which gets countered by C, which gets countered by A again. And so on. D3 is a PvE game! There are no counters! It's like WoW raiding but without the predefined specs with their predefined dps rotations and their predefined dropped equip. And this is also the reason why balance is way harder in D3 than in WoW pve. The reason why there are mostly no predefined raid compositions is simply that balancing WoW is IMMENSLY easier. And I say mostly because in times where balance was not that good, there WERE those best raidgrps!
Yeah comparing diff genres is not valid. You edit where you were saying that the game is flawed ^^. Even if some1 dont use the TOPbuild in a dpser, for example, its not like TOPbuild hit 5billion and ur damnnbbuild hit 100m. There is no difference like that in wow.
Because you don't have the freedom in WoW that you have in D3.
Are you sure about this ? Really ?
"NO! You can not compare those games" xD
... are you for real? you quote my "you can't compare them" and my explanation why you can't compare them and you don't get the connection?
"Because you don't have the freedom in WoW that you have in D3"
You can't compare these with diablo. Starcraft is a strategy game: you adapt to your opponent. If your opponent does strictly the same thing all the time, you will find one best way to beat him (e.g. in the campaign).
Hearthstone's "campaign" mode suffers from the very same thing: for every boss, you have one best deck to defeat it.
yes you can compare the two games despite them being different genres.
NO! You can not compare those games. Those 3 are PVP games. D3 is not a PVP game. That's a HUGE difference.
PvP has an ever shifting metagame (as long as balance is not utter shit). When the meta is A then people will try to counter it with B, which gets countered by C, which gets countered by A again. And so on. D3 is a PvE game! There are no counters! It's like WoW raiding but without the predefined specs with their predefined dps rotations and their predefined dropped equip. And this is also the reason why balance is way harder in D3 than in WoW pve. The reason why there are mostly no predefined raid compositions is simply that balancing WoW is IMMENSLY easier. And I say mostly because in times where balance was not that good, there WERE those best raidgrps!
Yeah comparing diff genres is not valid. You edit where you were saying that the game is flawed ^^. Even if some1 dont use the TOPbuild in a dpser, for example, its not like TOPbuild hit 5billion and ur damnnbbuild hit 100m. There is no difference like that in wow.
Because you don't have the freedom in WoW that you have in D3.
I did not said whats wrong ? The thing about choice is, u can always change the fak u will use. There is no commitment in ur build, that is why this game is flawed, and can't even be compared to PoE(or any arpg). Just my opinion, the same as i had in vanilla. I could try make my own build as always, but here u get in the same point as the #1 leaderbsboard. Another thing about the season feat, for me they don't know how long the seasons will be, and that shows how much they planned the game.
Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.
OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
You can't compare these with diablo. Starcraft is a strategy game: you adapt to your opponent. If your opponent does strictly the same thing all the time, you will find one best way to beat him (e.g. in the campaign).
Hearthstone's "campaign" mode suffers from the very same thing: for every boss, you have one best deck to defeat it.
yes you can compare the two games despite them being different genres.
NO! You can not compare those games. Those 3 are PVP games. D3 is not a PVP game. That's a HUGE difference.
PvP has an ever shifting metagame (as long as balance is not utter shit). When the meta is A then people will try to counter it with B, which gets countered by C, which gets countered by A again. And so on. D3 is a PvE game! There are no counters! It's like WoW raiding but without the predefined specs with their predefined dps rotations and their predefined dropped equip. And this is also the reason why balance is way harder in D3 than in WoW pve. The reason why there are mostly no predefined raid compositions is simply that balancing WoW is IMMENSLY easier. And I say mostly because in times where balance was not that good, there WERE those best raidgrps!
Yeah comparing diff genres is not valid. You edit where you were saying that the game is flawed ^^. Even if some1 dont use the TOPbuild in a dpser, for example, its not like TOPbuild hit 5billion and ur damnnbbuild hit 100m. There is no difference like that in wow.
What do you want to achieve as a player in Diablo?
As a casual one I guess you don’t really care which built or item is best for each slot. You bring some friends (or not), you make a built you like and you just enjoy the game for a few hours per week.
If you want to make it to the leaderboards then yes the “choices” are extremely limited and, depending on your class, there will always be a best build. But isn’t like that on most games/ cases if you want to be a top player?
Of course there is another player category in-between these two (like me) that have no idea what we’re doing in Diablo J on one hand cheating on the other hand working it seems impossible to enter the leaderboards with ~2 hours per day. We’re following the streamers, putting some personal touches in our builds but still due to the paragon level “situation” we are seriously struggling to get into the leaderboards.
But the problem Quin69 is mentioning, taking account only the way he is playing Diablo, is a result of how Blizzard treats the game and the people playing it. I get the feeling that patch after patch the game just gets easier and easier, probably with the intention to attract more people. I don’t think that it’s necessary to provide any proof to the community that since you reach level 70 investing 10 hours or so can give you the opportunity to have almost any set for your character and a few ancient items as well.
So if an item is overpowered (OP is the term right?) or not why does it matter? If the choice on a particular slot is one item or ten items since it’s SO easy to loot everything what’s really the problem? The fact that the item is OP(?), the fact that farming is so easy (?) or both?
Diversity (in general and not only for items) in the game should come from various sources rather than the fact that some items may be OP for a particular set/ skill etc. Diversity is not something that can be achieved by doing only this or only that but it comes from a collection of choices a player/ character should have in almost every aspect of the game (attributes, classes, skills, items, cubes, runes, leveling etc). Blizzard at the time being is just giving us the illusion of choice while making the game so much easier and indeed with limited diversity.
And I’m not sure that Blizzard wants to go down that road (or even a lot of players for that matter).
Even if u does not look the leaderboars, if u play slowly a full year you will end up the same path. But u got it, free skillz and item dmg dependant made it.
So nature of competition is to copy the number 1 ? If the number 1 keeps changing how do i do ? Changing the copy target forever ?
For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
Well, isn't this happening already right now?
The structure is always that - some streamers/theorycrafters go on PTR, test stuff out and day of patch release there are multiple build guides.
Then time passes during season, strategies refines and everyone is copying what top ladder players are doing.
There's a reason why nearly everyone was playing monk in season4 (even if Wizards are extremely competitive but no one seems to have noticed it).
The problem with choices is that if they're not balanced and you want to compete for #1, you don't actually have choices. It's like on vanilla/TBC WoW, with players complaining that they couldn't use thei build and do max dps - sorry to burst yout bubble, but math doesn't lie and there is only one spot for the best build.
The fact is that while the best build can be only one, they can still make that all the others are not that far behind so the difference in high GR can be nullified.
Ok, nice comment about some bubble, it surely hurt my feelings. I know math doesn't lie, and i know what the game looks like mister obvious.
I try to see both points here - i find myself in the middle while Quind does in fact make some points i agree with, and some others i don't.
As some others in here, i see that every patch there is more choice and not less in gearing; unfortunately the more choice is tied to new set and "pre-existing" or "premade" builds to which we need to adhere to have any chance at endgame. I can understand the feeling of players being pidgeonholed into something the Blizzard devs have chosen for us and we can just accept it or don't play it.
Unfortunately for us players, there are two things which are facts and cannot be changed:
- "premade" builds makes both set creation and balancing much easier for devs. Having to balance an big number of legendary combinations is much harder thand looking ate some limited number.
- there is place only for 1 best build and one #1 spot on ladders; choice has no room here, either you run with the best stuff or you're behind - that's the nature of competition.
Given this, however i agree that putting all these "XY% more damage on Z skill" is a very bad approach. We have an already limited degree of choice in D3, and this makes only choices narrower because some items become immediately mandatory to equip. Given also how limited we are in slots and how some items are clearly superior than others, we're really making the choice near to non-existent.
The point is that legendary items should have legendary affixes; not "sostrong they cut down competition" affixes.
Let me do an example:
- xbow #1: your cluster arrow generates double the amounts of grenades/rockets.
- xbow #2: your cluster arrow main hit now has a 15 yard radius
- xbow #3: your cluster arrow now leaves a crater at the point of impact, slowing targets inside the area and dealing X00% weapon damage over 4 seconds (damage type changes based on rune)
Balancing issues apart (just thrown random numbers and stuff there), here's what i expect legendary items to do - to add fancy stuff to my skills and not just change dmaage/coist coeafficients so they become suddendly the best efficient skills i can have on my bar.
The three xbows above all increase the CA damage, but in different ways; the #3 could have laess damage to balance the addition of CC. However i can choose either 2 of the three to have a different combo - all will be damage increases, and if balacing is done well, the damage will be the least stat to look at.
So basically the solution to the issue is to remove those passiove additive bonuses, and make more legedaries that overlap each other, so for these limited number of slots we can have a real choice.
I don't see Blizzard completely destroy and redo current itemization system; but having sets to choose from and for each set a number of items to mix up would be definitely better than now.
So nature of competition is to copy the number 1 ? If the number 1 keeps changing how do i do ? Changing the copy target forever ?
For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
Another add. If Blizz changes this it and removes big dmg% numbers, will be like saying that they are against the GR thing they made cuz low numbers will kill it. A next season no making the past one. ^^
Whole 2.3 he telling people "this is the goooo-tooooo build, there is nothing else" and convincing people to play that way.
And now 2.4 he complaining he has no choice?
There is enough choice in D3, but just because it doesnt fit his goal of being top player. doesnt mean its not good changes for casuals.
The funny thing is...almost everyone I meet who says they are casual gets the GR push bug once they acquire gear that mimics a supposed top build. After that all they want to do is get into higher and higher GRs becoming obsessed with having the best gear possible. This makes me believe the idea of calling one's self a casual player is just a front to save face from not having a top build yet. Once someone gets a solid build the casual moniker goes straight out the window.
What do u think they should do ? Blizz made the end game that way, if u want to lvlup gems to cube it, the new meta to get strong, u need to do that.... there is no other otion even if they dont read the forum. Or are u saying that casuals can not go this way because their casuals ?
There is a consequense and a cause. For me consequense is this itemization problem, and its because the INFINITE PARAGON/GR end game. Even if the uniques dont have this 500%dmg , they lack different stats like they had in D2. (Dmg goes to mana, prevent moster heal...). And because with this new 500% dmg increse in one item, the comon Skill dmg roll in armors are really useless.
This thread annoys me on so many levels as a guy who cares a little about statistics.
First off, going to a diablo website to get a random sample does not work. The population is clearly scewed towards a specific set of people. Even if you get ladies, elder men and young active guys to answer and decide to filter out some of the other answers that is a shady thing to do aswell.
Secondly, beginning a paper the day before you are handing it in with having to have 50 random people to answer... You've been studying for 5 years at a university now... cmon...
Then there's the trolls and the incentive to participate.
What would be cool is that if you wrote how you sampled your population, which makes it a more interesting study to me. Either way a random sample of 50 people seems super low no matter how you sample.
Finally, I just hope that this kind of "research" does not contribute to any kind of newspaper headline.
- Grumpy university graduate
Hahaha you just reminded me of my ecology teacher. But i'm sure this is just some extra work.
The game is far from finished, and they failed big time @ release, even they admit it!
Saying the patches are free and we should not complain is idiotic since the multiplayer version of this game sucks beyond words. Sure, if you consider the storyline as being the whole game or at least what matters the most, then yes, you payed for it and now you can't ask for more, but if they made it online only with strong emphasis on competitive multiplayer, which now we call the Adventure Mode, then they can't ask you for money to fix something they released incomplete or broke as hell!
That's actually the drama behind it all. The story is good and the game performs well in that regard, the problem with Adventure Mode and competitive multiplayer is that they barely started working on it! Not long ago having a set on you meant you really don't want to do any killing, and it took them years to figure it out!
Also, give up the discussions about Blizzard losing money by working on the game for "free". I made a post here a while back making a general math exercise and found out that they got a shitload of cash from selling D3 and it's expansion, so much actually that they can live out of it for tens of years even if they didn't had the other games! So stop this useless rant and stop caring so much about a huge company that bathes in gold! Really now, what's this urge to defend them? You can't critique a game you love because people like you guys are oblivious to what's going on with the company making these very important discussions stray too far from what's important! I said before and I'll say it again, mods should immediately edit and erase any reply that takes this incredibly stupid and uneducated approach and give warnings to users who do it! It's a forum crime worst that going
on incredibly offensive racist rants in my book!
Nobody said anything about Blizzard losing money, that would be pointless because they have to earn money. We all know this. Nobody (unless you're a complete retard) thinks that they are doing this as a favour to all the fans who have been oh so good and loyal.
The game is finished, it feels finished and every patch they add is a nice thing to just look forward to. Each patch is a new free addition to the game. You saying the multiplayer sucks is your opinion and other people will disagree with that, me included. Why should we care if they can live for decades with the money they earnt from sales? Are you scared they are gonna shut the servers down all of a sudden and exit the building and blow it up while laughing manically? Each employee gets their monthly pay for coming in every day to work on the next patch and/or the next expansion. This monthly pay comes from sales. What's wrong with that?
The game is so finished they need to balance all sets, and they said that not me.
MUA HA HAH AH AHA HA HA HA. Don't even think or i'll turn off the servers
Mesah beg u , don't.
Should i pay for blizzard fixing their beta game ? no.
Oh boo hoo hoo whaaaa I'm crying because free patches in a game I'm addicted to aren't coming fast enough ouch it hurts my feelings
... so Should i pay blizzard for fixing their beta game ? and why should i cry cuz of this ? or why should i cry over people that make complains about a game that has problems ?
You want discussion? I think we all know this game is far beyond beta, it doesn't feel like a beta and it's not incomplete like a beta. They are applying a free patch at 0 cost. Each individual on the team wake up, get out of their house and go to work and do work (develop Diablo 3) and for this bonus patch that they have spent work hours on is FREE. I dunno why you're crying about "pay blizz 4 fixing their beta game". It's not a beta and you're not paying so you're essentially crying for literally no reason and that's really sad m8.
I remeber paying to play, mb there is a free version i am not aware. So if they make a 1 time pay game and have to fix it a lot of time, is that my doing ? I am still looking for the cry here....
Should i pay for blizzard fixing their beta game ? no.
Oh boo hoo hoo whaaaa I'm crying because free patches in a game I'm addicted to aren't coming fast enough ouch it hurts my feelings
... so Should i pay blizzard for fixing their beta game ? and why should i cry cuz of this ? or why should i cry over people that make complains about a game that has problems ?
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"NO! You can not compare those games" xD
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I did not said whats wrong ? The thing about choice is, u can always change the fak u will use. There is no commitment in ur build, that is why this game is flawed, and can't even be compared to PoE(or any arpg). Just my opinion, the same as i had in vanilla. I could try make my own build as always, but here u get in the same point as the #1 leaderbsboard. Another thing about the season feat, for me they don't know how long the seasons will be, and that shows how much they planned the game.
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^^ Their old design keeps in the way, DAMN! ^^
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For me the problem is old, the same ppl said previous lauch. This mechanic is not a rpg one. It has action, but no choices. And i saw a player complaining on having only 6 skill to use. lol This game is random random random everything, and lies patch after patch. ^^
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Another add. If Blizz changes this it and removes big dmg% numbers, will be like saying that they are against the GR thing they made cuz low numbers will kill it. A next season no making the past one. ^^
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There is a consequense and a cause. For me consequense is this itemization problem, and its because the INFINITE PARAGON/GR end game. Even if the uniques dont have this 500%dmg , they lack different stats like they had in D2. (Dmg goes to mana, prevent moster heal...). And because with this new 500% dmg increse in one item, the comon Skill dmg roll in armors are really useless.
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MUA HA HAH AH AHA HA HA HA. Don't even think or i'll turn off the servers
Mesah beg u , don't.
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