DiabloFans

I agree with this guy. I'm a die hard Diablo fan, but Blizzard's demise started with the success with WoW. Ever since WoW was released they tried to mimic every game after it. Diablo 3 isn't a Diablo game.

Good. We need someone who played the previous games more to be in charge.

So I finally realized what the problem was with Diablo 3. It's a perfectly fine game. The gameplay is fun. The graphics are alright. However, it is not a Diablo game. It does not have the same magic as Diablo 2 and 1 had.

You see, Blizzard forgot who the target fanbase of Diablo games were. Diablo fans are NOT nerds. Those are World of Warcraft fans. If you want to find a typical WoW fan, google image "South Park WoW Guy". There you go, say hello to your stereotypical throwaway nerd, usually between the ages of 13-16 or 40-50. Diablo fans were different. They were your soul patch tattoo guy, who dreams of starting his own death metal band and studying philosophy if not for his weed and Diablo 2 addiction. The guy who would name his character "fuckst1ck" and enter chat rooms trolling "Fuck Canada! My uncle beats me!" and then join a PvP game while getting into arguments on d2jsp. I know there are a lot of WoW fans out there and I personally see why people like it but, generally, Diablo fans thought WoW was fucking gay! There was a famous quote done by someone at this forums whom I can't remember his name, but it went something like "Starcraft fans are Korean, Warcraft fans are nerds, Diablo fans are freaks." I miss this.

So here is where Blizzard made their biggest mistake. They had three franchises and their main attention was World of Warcraft (and for good reason, it was making them a fuck ton of money) and many thought they left the other two in the abyss. However, they recently decided to revive them. First there was Starcraft 2, which had a lot of improvements but I thought the campaign was too cartoonish and missed the original Starcraft feel to it, which was that dark futuristic feel that had a never ending war pessimism attached to it. I miss the cut scenes where there would be marines get assraped by Zerglings instead of Raynor bitching at the screen about Kerrigan for 75% of the time.

Then came Diablo 3. Diablo fans have been waiting patiently for a long time for a game that could be an improvement on Diablo 2, bring a similar dark feeling the first two had and make it on a grand scale. Like how could you fail at this task? You have the Lords of Sin and Lies as your main villains with a hint of the return of Diablo himself (not to mention everyone's favorite boss from Diablo 1). I'll tell you how. You use your most successful game as your inspiration, not the prequels of the game you are trying to make. I don't care if the auction house is flawed, Diablo 2 sucked way more ass at its release but you played it because it had that magic to it. That dark fantasy gore feeling that no one other game had. What other game do you remember had your main character turn into the villain at the end of the game? What other game had you finish the whole game thinking you accomplished something when really the guy telling the story was tricked by a demon lord? Diablo 3 had none of this. It felt like someone took the Warcraft template and tried to make a Diablo 3 game out of it. It was cartoonish, bright, bland, and boring. After all these years of patiently waiting, the Diablo stoners were left empty.

However, I now give you the return of what made Diablo 1 and 2 amazing. The same dark fantasy feeling that made it fun to kill skeletons in dungeons. The same dark music that allowed you to space out to a feeling of taking on pure evil itself.

Meet Path of Exile:




I was chilling over winter break when my brother texted me about this game. He, like me, was a devout fan of Diablo 1 and 2 and the old dark fantasy feeling it had. He said it was nothing like he has ever played. So, hearing it was free, I gave it a go.

So before I get into a review, let me tell you the back story of this game. The developers, Grinding Gear Games, are a small company in New Zealand that were veterans to games like D1 and 2. Missing this, they decided to make a new game based on D2. Using an almost identical ideas such as town portals, towns, identifying, the tetris inventory, etc, a new game was born that is much more of a sequel than Diablo 3 ever will be. The game is completely free as the developers do not believe in a "pay to play" philosophy. If you wish to skip my review and play the game, do it. Don't waste time in reading the useless jabbering on how great PoE is and get it yourself and play. If you want continue reading on like the useless shit you are, go ahead and read my review.

This is a screen shot of PoE pretty early on in the game:



Now there shouldn't be any explanation on why I brought this picture out. Any true Diablo fans knows exactly what every other DFan is thinking and that's "I used to stare at shit like this 24/7". Ultimate sense of awesome enters your head. THIS IS WHAT DIABLO SHOULD BE!

The game takes play on the continent Wraeclast, a harsh dark continent where your character is washed up on after being exiled by his ship. You start on the shores where you eventually find a small encampment founded by other exiles. There is where you start your journey.

Now while this sounds like a typical gay ass fantasy game, the gameplay is what keeps you in it. The combat is similar to Diablo 3 that you have a potions belt and a skill belt, but the way your skills work is pretty sweet. In PoE, you socket your items with gems that give you skills, and each time you level up, you gain a passive skill within a passive skill tree that in its entirety looks like this :



You get one little button per level and the level cap is 100, so the character diversity is just massive in this game. As you level up and your skills get better, you will encounter crazy monsters that would put the D1 catacombs to shame. Light radius actually plays a role in this game as most of the game you are in a dark dungeon crawling with monsters and demons. It brought back the old magic of killing demons and not giving a fuck.

The graphics are something else. It took the claymation-esque style that Diablo 1 and 2 were based on and literally just improved the shit out of it. Night is finally night, which is something that Blizzard just had a hard time doing. Honestly, it doesn't take a genius to find out that lack of light makes things black, not a bluish herpes color that puts Blue Waffle to shame (look that up I dare you). The world is gigantic and the landscaping is beautiful, which I think they call textures in programming but I honestly don't fucking now. Like its spiritual prequels, the maps are randomized and the map no longer feels linear and small.

Now onto the monsters themselves. From strange octopus/man hybrids to classic walking zombies, PoE has them all. You can definitely tell that they used their imagination in this game when it came to the enemies as I honestly am excited when I enter a new area just so I can see the new challenges I am going to face. The spiders actually look freaky in this game and the bad ass undead knights just look like Hellish badassery. Being the freak (not nerd) that I am, I would buy a sculpture of those weird crab things you see in the beginning of the game, as they are absolutely creepy.

Now onto the multiplayer. This is honestly why most people would play the game. The game operates in a sense that you have to have internet connection to play, kind of like WoW and Diablo 3. Yet there is no chat room or anything. You have your character select screen and when you pick a character you are thrust into the game. How do they make up for the chat room? By probably the most ingenious idea of multiplayer communication of all time.

When you start the game you are in a sense playing single player. You have no connection to the outside world except for your chat window which has the option of going global (which counts as the chat room) and/or local (which is in your current party). Now how do you join parties? Well before I get into that, let me tell you about the town. Outside of town, you are by yourself against Wraeclast's monsters, however when you're in town, everyone who is town in your league (a sub level of realms), can be seen in town. You can trade with them, talk to them, or just ignore them if you want. This is how you mostly meet other players. You can imagine it being a webbed tree where outside of town everyone is by themselves but everyone meets together when they're inside. This is a very good way to meet other players and I honestly think the system is amazing. To join parties, you put up your social window where you can join other public parties (which are in a sense separate games in D2) or private parties with your friends.

There is also PvP, which I have no yet experienced, but everyone who has fought in PvP told me it's amazing, but I won't review anything I won't do.

To finish my review, I'll talk about character classes. There are six character classes all of which I am not going to name because I don't remember and I don't want to take the time to check. Yet the way they are made is actually pretty simple. The game is based on three attributes: Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence. The way the class system works is very similar to the six dot color wheel, which means you have three classes that work purely on one attribute, and three other classes that work via hybridization, meaning there is a Strength-Dex class, a Intelligence-Strength class, etc. Each class starts at a different place on the Passive Skill Tree where their passive skills match more of their class. This does not mean you are stuck to one attribute forever. It means that your class works best under one but as you level up more and more you can actually merge some passive skills of other classes, which just adds to the diversity. So the moral of the story is that it's confusing but makes sense when you start playing.

As a conclusion, the game is amazing and it's only in closed beta. The developers know what they are doing and I am glad to call myself a fan of the game. On the Irrational scale I give it ten 4chan memes of out ten. GET IT!

Now to the true Diablo fans out there, here is a link to their website for you to start a new adventure:

Website: http://www.pathofexile.com/

If you aren't, then read this list of what a true Diablo fan is and take follow:


A true Diablo fan thinks WoW is gay.

A true Diablo fan knows how to deal with trolls.

A true Diablo fan played Diablo 1 before it was cool.

A true Diablo fan isn't fat or skinny, he just doesn't give a fuck.

A true Diablo fan tells 11 year old ragers to kill themselves and laughs about it.

A true Diablo fan read the Diablo 1 manual on the toilet.

A true Diablo fan watches porn while D2 is minimized.

A true Diablo fan lives with his mom because he doesn't care, not because he wants to.

A true Diablo fan wishes he could go to an Opeth concert, but can't afford it.

A true Diablo fan reads d2jsp arguments for fun.

A true Diablo fan makes jokes that his uncle mollests them... to strangers.

A true Diablo fan knows why Blizz made sojs the way to open up D-Clone.

A true Diablo fan looked up "effects of shrooms" at least four times in his life.

A true Diablo fan watches the D2 cinematics on Youtube.

A true Diablo fan considered firing Jay Wilson and replacing him as themself.

A true Diablo fan thought Leah was only positive from Diablo 3.

A true Diablo fan made racist jokes when he saw that Tyreal was black.

A true Diablo fan believes in white power because he thinks it's funny.

A true Diablo fan starts religious flame wars for fun.

A true Diablo fan knows how to change the world but is too lazy to do it.

A true Diablo fan knows why the D3 Butcher was gay.

A true Diablo fan hated Leah-Diablo.

A true Diablo fan isn't a hipster, he just doesn't give a fuck.

A true Diablo fan cannot be a woman (just kidding, don't ban me).

A true Diablo fan has made at least 10 hammerdins in his time.

Okay so I've been patrolling youtube videos, forums, and the game itself and a common theme is that people like to say that Diablo 3 is a very disappointing game and that the expectations it had were undeserved and all that usual nonsense.

What?

Diablo 3 is a very good game. First off, the gameplay is extremely well done. Just because it takes aspects of WoW, which is arguably the greatest multiplayer game ever made (coming from a guy who does not like WoW), does not make it a bad game. Just because the map is in the corner and not covering the whole fucking screen does not make it bad. The enemies are very enjoyable and the skills you have are also extremely fun and awesome. Like I finally decided to get a Wizard to Inferno and I realized how much freedom I had compared to all the other Diablo games.

I think that over the course of twelve years of waiting for this game, hardcore fans (don't worry I did this too) made their own Diablo 3 in their head and were very sad to not see their own ideas in the game. I think the story was extremely awesome. Yes I agree that Diablo's taunts were a bit cheesy and Magdha could have been a bit better done, but seriously, who cares? Maghda was a very interesting character and gave Belial a better name. I honestly just wished we could have faught against Imperius -___-

The music is also very good in the game.


The gameplay is very solid, the lore is awesome, and questing/multiplayer is very cool. I don't know why people hate on it so much, but like the old saying goes, haters gonna hate.

Diablo 3 = 9/10

2k people say no. -___-

Wtf???

I challenge you to to eat a fork with a soup.

Quote from ecutruin

@Irrational: I actually disagree. What kept D2 alive was that there was not a viable alternative to the game really. I personally am glad that Blizzard will be able to monitor activity easily and ban those that bot. It won't catch everyone, but it'll catch many of them.

No it's alive because the PvP system is a lot of fun, despite it being so flawed. People bot to get items, they sell them through d2jsp and they eventually get really really good characters. MFing and killing things gets tiring after a while.

Like it or not, botting keeps D2 alive.

So I'm getting bored as hell lately and I've wondering if you guys want to bring back this mini-game in Diablo 2. Everything you need to know is below. Let me know if you guys want to join. Also, if you want the main rules of the mini-game, skip down to the In-Game Rules.

Summary:

Juggernaut (sometimes called Ironman) is a mini-game to play Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction at the absolute hardest difficulty. I am not lying here, IT IS HARD and it is not meant for people who just started the game or you are getting used to it. You make a new account, so realm and ladder issues are a non issue. This requires nothing beforehand except being able to connect to battle.net and the ability to play the game at a reasonable level. You just hop on board. The main idea of Juggernaut is not only to play the game at its hardest, but to use only what the game provides you, and to use it to your full advantage. Please read the rules thoroughly and if you have any questions, please ask.

Game Requirements:

- Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction
- USWest
- HardCore
- Ladder

Account Requirements:

- A New Account Specifically for Juggernaut
- The account name: IRON-xxxxx

Character Requirements:

- Each character is designed for one juggernaut run only.
- There cannot be 2 character classes of the same type (unless it's 8 man. Talked about later)
- Each character must be Hardcore
- Each character must be Ladder


Pre-Game Rules:

- Meet in a designated channel (usually being "op juggernaut")
- Wait for every player to come.
- Answer any questions.
- Figure out who is the leader.
- Solve any problems.
- If there are 8 people, then have there be 2 sorceresses.

In-Game Rules:

- Party everyone and let everyone loot your corpse.
- Start when everyone is ready
- You cannot buy items from vendors.
- You cannot buy potions or any kind from vendors.
- You cannot repair any items from vendors.
- You cannot go to a healer to heal you.
- The only exception to those rules above is if you must talk to someone for a quest related topic.
- The HellForge hammer can be repaired.
- All quests must be done.
- All Waypoints must be taken.


System:

1. Act 1 (Normal)
2. Act 2 (Normal)
3. Act 3 (Normal)
4. Act 4 (Normal)
5. Act 5 (Normal)
6. Cows (Normal)
7. Act 1 (Nightmare)
8. Act 2 (Nightmare)
9. Act 3 (Nightmare)
10. Act 4 (Nightmare)
11. Act 5 (Nightmare)
12. Cows (Nightmare)
13. Act 1 (Hell)
14. Act 2 (Hell)
15. Act 3 (Hell)
16. Act 4 (Hell)
17. Act 5 (Hell)
18. Cows (Hell)
19. Ubers (Hell)
20. The Run of Death (Hell)

In-Game Strategies:

- Class-Specific Items go to that class.
- Class helping Items go to that class.
- Drop any unwanted items in town.
- Collect all the potions that you can, and save them.
- Be a team player
- If you lag and you're in a dangerous environment, you may quit the game and rejoin.
- If your window closes and you're in a dangerous environment, you may quit the game and rejoin.
- Listen to the leader.
- If one person needs to stop, wait for him.
- Hellforge can be done for every person in the team separately. Teammates are required to help that member get it, and they can unparty when that member is getting his forge.
- Don't do anything stupid. <---- I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!


Juggernaut FAQ's:



Q: You call this ironman a lot, is that the same thing as juggernaut?

A: Ironman used to be the official name for this mini-game, but because people did not want to quest all the way, they made ironman a game where you level up until level 9, and duel. Juggernaut is now the old ironman, where you quest.


Q: On Jsp, ironman is when you level up until level 9, and duel. WTF?

A: Just like above, ironman USED to be questing, but because of time, people did not want to play it as much. So they just made it so you dueled at level 9.


Q: Will I need anything before playing this?

A: Besides the ability to make an account on Battle.net, you don't need anything before playing this.


Q: Will I need a lot of time for this?

A: Yes. You will need around 3-4 hours minimum unless we all drop dead at the Raven, which probably won't happen. So we will find a time which will work for everyone, usually being nighttime.


Q: I don't have Diablo 2: LoD! WTF?!?!?

A: If you still have your CD-Key, Blizzard let's you download their games off of www.battle.net Go on that site and put in your CD-key and down load the game. If you don't then that's too bad. No juggernaut for you!


Q: I came late on the day of the juggernaut. What do I do?

A: Due to the fact that the time has been up for a week and you signed up for it with plenty of time to ask me to move the time so you can participate in this event, if you miss it, you will have to sign up for the next week's run. We will not wait for you. If it says 7 pm PST, then it means that time. If you are late 15 minutes, that is reasonable. But anything beyond that is ridiculous.


Q: So it's the middle of the run, and I have to go. What happens?

A: It really depends. If we are killing everything in the Den of Evil, and you have to leave to Japan, we won't wait for you and just continue onward. However, if it is a in depth juggernaut and we have been playing for a while, we respect that real life comes first and the game second. We will stop for you, and arrange a time later.


Q: What happens if we don't finish the juggernaut run in one day?

A: An arrangement of time will be set that will fit all the surviving members to continue that run. We hope to finish all the runs we do, and not forget about them.





So let me know if you guys are interested. THIS WILL TAKE SOME TIME, so keep that in mind. We would do it at a time where everyone is happy since I know a lot of people are busy.

If you are going to join, fill out this form:



DiabloFans User:
New BNet Account Name: Iron-
Character Class:
Run Number:
Character Type (optional):
Character Name (optional):


RUN NUMBER ONE:

Leader: Irrational - Sorceress - Cold
Member 2: Periculm - Assassin - Melee (kicksin)
Member 3: Lt. Venom - Paladin - Ice Zealot
Member 4: Flobbernoggin - Druid - Fire/Summon
Member 5: GangsterSheep - Barbarian - Howl
Member 6:
Member 7:
Member 8:

7/10

It's supposed to be Irrational, get it?

Jay had some pretty weird visions for Diablo that not many people agreed with, so probably the best for him to move on.

Quote from shaggy

That's absolutely ridiculous.

D2 had stats, except that the only right way to spend your stat points 99% of the time was get enough str & dex to use the gear you wanted then dump the rest into vitality. There was no choosing, your choices were an outright illusion.

As for talent points those were again canned. Pick a few abilities you felt you wanted to max, pick a main damage spell and max it. It became even less of a choice when they introduced synergies because you basically picked a main damage spell, maxed it, then maxed any abilities with gave a synergy to it. That's not choice. That's not difficult.

D3 is dumbed down because it doesn't have scrolls? Really. That sounds like you're grasping for straws. What measure of complexity or difficulty did carrying 20 scrolls around in a tome add to the game that wasn't completely outweighed by the fact that between Identify and Town Portal tomes you wasted 4 slots in you inventory? What was so awesome about that mechanic?

As for D3 being a game that even grandma can play, my guess is that grandma would have a far easier time making a toon that can farm for gear in D2 than in D3. Did you know that D2 was actually so easy that they actually had to buff monsters at least once? Check out 1.10 patch notes. D2 took about the same mental power as that of a grasshopper to play, yet it was still a goddamned awesome game that tons of people played for an absurdly long time. Yet, somehow while having a huge hardon for what D2 was you're going to sit here with a straight face and attempt to tell me that games aren't good unless they're complex and difficult. Final Fantasy VII was not exactly that difficult, yet it remains one of my absolute favorite games ever. Super Mario 64 wasn't exactly complex, but I still replay that game with great joy. I seriously wonder how Nintendo ever made money based on your standards.

You clearly love Path of Exile. I hear Kripparian has a man-crush on the game too. Maybe you can go annoy them instead of trolling. You are here holding D3 to standards that you'd never hold any other game to, and you're entirely misinformed about the Diablo series. You make statements that no one in their right mind could agree with because it's simply a skewed view of reality.

But, hey, I hear that picking +10 to a stat or +6% attack speed in Path of Exile are the MOST EXCITING CHOICES EVER. Oh wait, the only exciting choices in their talent system are the 1-in-100 interesting choices that aren't some flat modifier to a stat or attack speed or damage with <weapon type>. Sounds absolutely exhilirating. Hypocrite.

Quote from Irrational

Haha what? Don't you mean you have to living underneath a rock to overplay this game to the point of hating it? Sorry bud, try again

It's a known fact? Decent? -____- You can hate on it as much as you want, but your thesis kind of sucks without some supporting arguments.

He's probably referring to all the cut out material such as the mystic, death scenes, and no initial PvP etc... A lot of people live in a dream world of LoD 1.10 where everything was duped and easy to obtain OP gear that face rolled an easy game and expected the same experience.

Inferno was then announced they promised it was hard and only the elite could complete it, now everyone complains that it isn't as farmable as it should be. Inferno obviously wasn't tested and the "end game content" does not allow very much flexibility in character builds. Most of these fixes will come out in future patches but people expect it from release even though no Blizzard game has been perfect from day 1 in over 15 years.

Itemization is terrible and the problem is this game purely revolves around items, again this should be addressed. The carrot on the stick incentive is bad because uniques dropped like candy (whether they were godly or not) in D2 and in D3 legendaries suck the big one (again fix in future patch). The itemization approach for D3 has made all low level uniques and sets useless which makes me sad.

Most people didn't know about 3rd party sites and now the fact the AH has made it a common practice people have "gear progressed" quickly and are wondering why farming has become useless. Overall farming in D2 also took forever but again most people are used to the LoD days of rune-words. People also don't realize that trade channels are now a simple click on the AH.

Economy and inflation are an issue but they were in D2 as well, the only saving grace was a ladder. In D3 the economy check is hardcore mode, beyond that there is nothing else.

People expected a fully finished game that compared to a product of multiple years of patches, fixes, and an expansion. D2 vanilla vs. D3 vanilla = D3 wins easy. The most butthurt people are PvPer’s / greifers and I agree that since there is no PvP at the moment there is a lot less to do at “end game”. Griefing will never happen in this get over it and move on (yay). It’s hard to tell where PvP will go, arena’s is an okay approach but player dictation of PvP rules is always most exciting.

Since there is no mindless grinding to out-level content people again don’t know what else to do. Leveling may have been “trivial” but it’s a tangible aspect for people to feel like they are progressing. It also seems a lot of players are WoW players and have no idea what the Diablo series is about. People also seem to have the idea of WTF game dying but every Diablo has a massive decrease in activity considering 90% of sales are usually casuals. Every patch and or content update always brings people back; there is no dying (just temporary inactiveness).

Random maps are terrible; the game is missing some old nostalgic sounds, the socket system is simplistic and boring, cow level (ponies) is just plain sad, and overall I think the music is not as good. Over the game has improved on so many aspects but people are negative and bitch. Many of us are guilty of nostalgic aspects no game will influence you more than when you were kid/teenager (influential age) compared to be a rational adult who has experienced many things. A lot of people are also burnt out of 2 weeks to 2 months of 600+ hours of doing the same thing... and your surprised?

TL;DR

A lot of people wanted Diablo 2.5; this isn’t it (thank god). Blizzard never puts out a finished product from release and they drastically improve the game over time. Usually to the point of being an epic game, every release has been like this. People forget things over time, it will be fine.

My Diablo 3 Computer Mod!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLTXzqdnogo&feature=youtu.be

Worthy of a front page post?

Meat is murder.

Murder is DELICIOUS!!!

Loading Screens - Act 1 through 4!
The loading screens for the 4 Acts of Diablo 3 have been added to the game files in the latest beta patch, see below.



Wiki Digest #2 (by PhrozenDragon)


What's New?
Mephisto has received his lore article update, bringing him up to speed with his brothers and the rest of the Lesser Evils.

Last week I reported that we'd redone the structure behind all Diablo II items. That was not entirely true, as set bonuses had not been accounted for. That has now been fixed by Apoc however. He's also added a new Achievements page. It's currently very basic but will be updated with fancier graphics.

The quests available in the beta have been updated to reflect the new amounts of experience the player received upon completing them.

Lastly, the various follower skill changes recently revealed have all been added to the wiki and the old ones removed, see Templar, Scoundrel and Enchantress. Those pages have also been updated to use the standard skill template that is used for the five classes, thus bringing a more uniform look to the wiki.

What's Being Discussed?
A suggestion was raised that we redo how we display items on item pages (see: The Grandfather) and instead opt for a display method closer to what is seen in-game. Talkerst has begun on an example (do remember that this is a sandbox, and thus may look funky at present) of what we could shoot for.

Azmodan's Generals have finally been revealed!!

Azmodan, Inc.
We Sin because we care!

Hey!

Levelcap.se (Swedish Blizzard fansite) had a beta key contest recently where you could enter with any kind of art, picture, song or whatever as long as it related to Diablo in some way.

I have always wanted to do something from Diablo within minecraft so I figured I would go ahead and give it a shot.

I decided to recreate the town of New Tristram from the beta.

Disclaimer: The project is not really completed, it's only part of the town (although the most important part I may say). The contest was due for today so I had to upload this anyway. I will likely continue this project (hopefully if I win a key I can get some better looks at the environments).

Some things I had to improvise a bit with since it's hard to recreate everything, but I tried to be as accurate as possible.

This was all done in creative mode by hand. Texture pack is DokuCraft Dark.

Disclaimer 2: Sorry for the loud rain noise, didn't expect it to pick up that much. Also the rendered video got a bit dark, but it kinda fits the Diablo theme anyway :).

Without further ado:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DpfHJBRQ3M

Enjoy

im gonna say most people on this forum, and most likely the entire internet, are atheists or agnostic/dontgiveafck.

so. goodluck

After some reflection to my invitation for a thread about the merits of religious supersitions (thank you Umpa!), it occured to me that a catchy title would do me no good if it set about from the wrong side of the coin. This is a mistake many debating atheists and anti-theists make and one that almost always sees them waste undue time explaining his own position. With that in mind, I spout not the renunciation of Yaweh or Allah (or Zeus, Ra, Seth, Zaroaster, Shiva, Vishnu, Thor, Ananzi, etc.) from my title, but request that those living in the certitude of such a being explain why they suppose their God(s) to exist. As an atheist, I make no such claim to knowledge.

I freely admit that my knowledge has limits in the physical world as well as to the realm of what scientists can currently experiment and observe. I fully acknowledge that there will be new ideas, new postulaions, and even new religions long after my life has ended. I expect many would argue that science is dispensed with, having admitted these limitations, but to that I must push the question: what makes anything else more plausible? What makes a many-millenia old work of creative non-fiction (or historical fiction, take your pick) any more a useful tool to seek truth?

I must be careful to caveat on several points, again, in the hopes that we will have as little grandstanding and unnecessary derailing from the central issue:

1. Atheists do not maintain there is no god, they maintain there has never been convincing evidence for a god. While this distinction seems flippant, it is not. The former is a claim that would make atheists no more rational than a strident theist.

2. Atheists do not (all) contend that religious texts are entirely useless, morally bankrupt, or request their destruction. Many of us, myself included, oblige the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, etc. as works of literature worth reading. They may be windows into iron/bronze age society, common literary experiences that enrich the reader just as much as The Illiad, works of Shakespear, or (perhaps more modern context) a classic film series like The Godfather.

3. What then, seperates the agnostic from the Atheist? Good question. There is some debate on this, but my take is this: Agnostics just don't care about the question and Atheists have pursued the question and found all answers wanting. If you are a professed agnostic and find a problem with my diffirentiation, please let me know how you see yourself. I am quite interested in this dichotomy.

4. "The universe," is not proof of the existence of a god or gods. Infinite-regression arguments for first-cause (flying in the face of quantum physics and the concept of space-time) do not provide proof either. Appeals to authority on the matter of quantum physics proving a deist position would be interesting to hear (though i've yet to hear a good one).

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With that out of the way I would like to make the small request that posters identify (at least in their first post) themselves as Theist, Deist, Agnostic, or Atheist. This is not to typecast or mock anyone I view as holding an indefensible position, but rather to help me (and anyone else who wants to contribute) understand the context of what is being said by way of position.

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In deference to our gracious moderation team I will also request that ad hominem and useless trolling be kept at a cordial level. I'm well aware that most of these discussions don't "convert," or "englighten," anyone and that the prospect of this thread charging into the flaming abyss of crap are high: therefor, let us do our best to maintain a civil discourse.

So: Prove to me your God exists!