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Hmmmm, so far I have been doing straight up damage/sec to one target to give us some starting base line of "this combination does more damage' and 'this combination is more sustainable' blah blah blah.

Playing out scenarios?...like hit'em with Frost Nova, lay down a Hydra, use Arcane Torrent-Crimson...

Thats very, very hard to work out. I've been trying to think of an accurate, reliable way to depict that. Its hard, because I can hit a like 3 keyboard buttons in 1 sec, so I can cast Hydra, Frost Nova, or another spell in 1 second. But does everyone have that reaction time? Will everyone play as frantic as I do? (banging keyboard/twitchy/animated)

I just don't know those things. Maybe I'll throw something together. But I will be up front with you, the result of a session like that will vary between player!

To oneoftheorder :
I watched a video of Hydra. It got off 12 missles in 9 seconds. For best case scenario, lets assume all 12 of these missiles hit.

I crunched some numbers:

Over that same 40 second time period, you can cast Hydra once, and the rest if mainly damage from AT-Crimson. You can only cast once because you have base AP pool of 100 without Astral Presence. Again, this is sustained casting over 40 seconds. You could stop and wait to fill up on AP to use Hydra again, but Hydra (with AT-Crimson dmg boost) does ~967.68 damage over its 9 second life. You do 4354.56 damage with AT-Crimson alone in that same 9 seconds. It wouldn't be worth it to wait to recast Hydra. Anyway, these are you numbers for 40 seconds-
You'll do ~20321.28 damage

I understand, by the looks of it, you appreciate a little battlefield control? You chose Temporal Flux as a passive to slow down enemies when you damage them with Arcane.

I would, if you wanted, run some damage numbers on a build that utilized Astral Presence instead of Temp Flux.

Quote from oneoftheorder

I have no video or Blue post to back this up, but I am certain that if you maintain Arc Torrent, you will maintain the 120% debuff. Personally, I am at the moment leaning toward a http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#kRShgO!ZbV!ZaZZbZ build for that reason; I don't expect you will be able to gain much from swapping into Disintegrate for up to 5 seconds, esp since it will have a ramp-up time (which I think we can assume will be at *best* 1.5 sec a la Ray of Frost, but may be slower), and since that will possibly require a careful timing of spell switching to avoid spending extra AP/sec during the switch, or losing out on some of your damage for that sec.

The probably less-optimal, but more-fun builds I may go for are really only slight variants of that: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#URShgO!ZbV!ZbZZbZ, or this with something (probably Slow Time) swapped for golden MM.

Note: a 1:6 (or 1:5) Arc Torrent:Disintegrate rotation is probably going to be very sensitive to the exact cast time and buff placement/counting/tracking mechanics. Whether you can pull off 1:6 rather than 1:5, or whether you can even cheese out something greater by taking advantage of timing like 1:6.5 or 1:7 will be very sensitive, and is likely to change from one patch to another if it affects any of these attributes.

I don't know how often Hydra will shoot, so I can't give you any numbers. I do know that if you switched Hydra with RoF-Crimson, used that until exhaustion,then held down Arcane Torrent-Crimson on an enemy, that for 40 seconds you would do ~21890.56 damage.

EDIT : I watched a video of Hydra. It got off 12 missles in 9 seconds. For best case scenario, lets assume all 12 of these missiles hit.

I crunched some numbers:

Over that same 40 second time period, you can cast Hydra twice, and the rest if mainly damage from AT-Crimson.
You'll do ~20805.12 damage

Oh wow. Look at these fun numbers. If you've read any of my other posts both here and other threads, you notice this *looks like its the best DPS combination (that I've found SO FAR)

-12.5 Regeneration rate plus 2 from Astral Presence and 20AP to pool = 120AP & 14.5 regeneration rate
-Gl.Cannon and Familiar Crimson - 60% damage increase
-Storm Armor - 7 AP reduction is skill costs
-40 second time period.
-Using Arcane Torrent and Disintegrate. (I'm bowing down to this combo)
-Method - Hit target with Arcane Torrent-Crimson. Then cast Disintegrate-Crimson on them for 6 seconds to take advantage of the 120% dmg increase. *Note, with this setup, your AP pool never dips below the starting amount of 120. Its a constant 120 AP available for the entirety of the session.

Over 40 seconds, you can do - 26634.88 damage.

VERY impressive. My self-proclaimed highest-damage/sec Ray of Frost build is weeping somewhere right now.

Concerning your comment about including AT to the rotation, RoF was used until AP was exhausted, then MM was utilized to recoup all AP. At the end of that RoF exhaustion, thats it. I have no AP to even cast AT.

UNLESS, you were taking advantage of Storm Armor-Golden's 7 AP reduction in skill costs. IMO, this is probably has the highest DPS over any time period. I keep discovering new things!

Now at the end of the day, I'll discover something else beats this. ha

Quote from Mooch_

What I am wondering is at what point is the damage of the signature spell secondary to its AP regenerative effects? Is Golden Electrocute with Prodigy the best spell to cast in an AoE pull (3+ monsters), with your damaging rotation being AT debuffed enemies getting disintegrated?

Also, DKR, I believe AT Crimson debuff needs to be in the rotation, as it seems to be quite a big buff to damage, but only arcane. Does AT need to be cast before MM spam, since it will increase that damage by 20%, and does this make MM better than the other sig spells?

There is much math to be done...

I think it was ElectricEel (i think) that brought up, or at least gave me the thought, of hitting a target with AT then blasting them with Disintegrate with that 120% additional damage boost. After 6 seconds, you'd hit them again with AT and proceed with Dis.

I have yet to work out the numbers in terms of how much damage you can do over X amount of seconds, but I value your suggestion to add Arcane Torrent to the rotation. Let me work something out. Let me pose this question to you, because this is where I was having difficulty:

Hit enemy for a quick second with AT gives them %120 damage. WHat if you continue hitting them with AT? Does the 6-second timer expire? or stay forever 120% damage boosted as long as you AP can support AT casting?

oooooooo my head is spinning.

You know what hasn't be said since the D3 calculator arose?

"there's no build customization!"

Look at us debate and discuss damage vs regen vs diverse utility skills. Badass!

Quote from Mooch_

Also, DKR, do you think the use of Prodigy with MM Golden outweighs the convenience given by using Galvanizing ward?

I'm not sure what you mean. Galv Ward double armor spell time, Prodigy is an AP-regen passive. Please explain

He's spamming MM. I'd say even more than 1/sec. He gets in 10 magic missiles in 7 seconds.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13-3BJBaFNI



And here, again, is Shock Pulse being spammed right at 1/sec. Start at 0:40 seconds



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IegSDRqb-fA


Yea, those figures I put up are using that same 'scheme' you suggested. All AP is exhausted, then regenerated by Sig spells, then repeat. Over a certain time period I can total up the damages to see which method/rune is more effective.

Hey emyln,

I just wondered...concerning our conversation about MM-Indigo vs MM-Crimson and all that...

Is MM-Crimson/Indigo the highest damaging Sig skill? <<<<< I thought to myself.

Shock Pulse-Crimson looks awfully attractive.

If all 8 missile from Fork hits a target, you'll do 204 avg damage. (not calculating in passives/buffs) Hitting all 8 might prove to be difficult!

If only 2 Fire bolts hit a target, you can do 210. While only 1 may hit, (110.5 dmg), you do have the possibility of doing 331.5 dmg if all 3 hit. PLUS getting the 5 AP from Prodigy but doing more damage!.

I'll try to remember to work out some numbers to see if Shock Pulse-Crimson has an edge of MM-Indigo. It does over MM-Crimson for sure.

DKR

For his build, without Storm Armor - Golden, or even Energy Armor-Indigo I believe, I was incorrect. He does ~3000 more damage over 40 seconds with Familiar-Crimson versus Familiar-Golden. I thought he might be able to cast a weaker Meteor so many more times that it would 'out-damage' Crimson.

FYI, 40 seconds of time with your build/regen rates/and best case scenario you regen 14 AP from every Electrocute cast, you can do ~16175.7 damage with Meteor.

EDIT : I'll calculate human error into my figures and say "take them with a grain of salt". However, what I do know, is that your Meteor is more beneficial with Familiar-Crimson versus Golden. But you didn't need me to tell you that.

Since you posted those scenarios, I've been working on some of my own. Not to question your methods, but I was trying to see if I could come up with the numbers myself as well. And I did! (cue confetti) I did several scenarios actually, and found the total damage over 40 seconds for them all. If you wish, I will show you the math, but for here, I'll show you what my result were.

All of the following used Prodigy, Astral Presence,and Storm Armor-Golden 7 AP cost reduction. They are to compare Magic Missile rune effects when using Prodigy to gain 5 AP each MM cast. Over 40 second time period.

RoF & MM-Golden & Familiar-Golden = 19272 damage
Super AP efficiency. 19/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 19 AP gained with MM hit.

RoF & MM-Golden & Familiar-Crimson = 20560.8 damage
Great AP efficiency with damage boost. 14.5/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 19 AP gained with MM hit.

RoF & MM-Crimson & Familiar-Crimson = 21520 damage
Good AP regen with higher damage overal. 14.5/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 5 AP gained with MM hit.

RoF & MM-Indigo & Familiar-Crimson = 22852 damage
Same AP stats as above, except this has the 'potential' for higher MM missile. Again, 'potential'

I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.

EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?

It says AT-Crimson enemies become disrupted and take 120% more arcane damage. So ArcTorrent is arcane damage, so right away, from the first hit of ArcTorr on the enemy they will take 120% more damage from ArcTorr immediately? for as long as you can cast it? It says 6 seconds, but if you continuously cast ArcTorr, they'll continuously take 120% more damage from it....?

Confusing?

If you switch Familiar-Crimson to Familiar-Golden you would be able to cast meteor more times, doing more damage even compared to a 40% increase in damage from Familiar-Crimson. Same with RoF.

Just suggestions,
DKR

Minus a couple, or few, anyone else a bit disappointed by the Passive abilities selection?

whoops! too many numbers going through my mind to be clear on ANYTHING lately. I double checked my data, and its accurate. (phew) /Edited-Corrected\

thanks bud

Yea I read it as X damage per second, for 3 seconds total. So I multiplied the damage by 3. I should have divided if I wanted the DPS. Didn't read it correctly.

Ya, guess it is just a perk. Regardless, although I'm hesitant to use it, I really...really want to see it in action.

(Good thing skills can be changed in D3!)

Okay, for example, (I can use any skill you want) I used Ray of Frost, just for discussion.

I left it at BASE regeneration (12.5/sec), I'm using 60% damage increase from Glass Cannon and Familiar-Crimson total. This example will be based over a 40 second time period. The Signature spell used to regenerate AP will, in this case be Magic Missile (+14 AP/hit). If you cast RoF until AP is exhausted, and hit 1 monster/sec with Magic Missile (best case scenario) until AP is full again, and resume RoF until it is exhausted again. Doing this over a 40 second time, there will be a total damage output over that time. Which combination of skills being the more powerful will be shown in the data.

Base regen/Sig spell regenerating AP/RoF - 15,417.6 damage.
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Now, take Astral Presence passive to bump AP pool by 20 and give us 2 AP/sec regeneration. We have 14.5 AP/sec regeneration, still 60% damage increase. Same method: Cast RoF until AP is exhausted, use MM until AP is full again, and resume/repeat over a 40 second time period.

14.5 regen/Sig Spell regenerating AP/RoF - 17987.2 damage.

The extra 2 AP regenerating every second increase damage output over time by lengthening your cast time before you AP is exhausted. When it finally is exhausted, AP regeneration is quicker, and you're able to start dealing damage again.
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Lets take it one step further and use Storm Armor-Golden Rune for a flat 7 AP reduction in costs. Still same 60% increase in damage, still Magic Missile regenerating 14 AP/hit, Astral Presence for that extra 20 AP and 2 AP/sec regen. Same method :

14.5 regen/Sig spel regen AP/RoF/St.Armor- 19914.4 damage

Again, AP regeneration is key to more damage over time.
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Take it one, LAST step.
You have the 7 AP reduction in skill costs from Storm Armor, now add Familiar with Golden rune to bump your regeneration rate up to 19 AP/sec. Your casting times will be longer, but your downtime regenerating AP will be shorter.

Over the 40 second time period, you actually will not have ANY downtime. You can cast Ray of Frost for 40 seconds straight with 7 AP reduction and 19 AP regen/sec. This will yield you - 25696 damage.

So basically, regeneration times/passives DO have a substantial affect on your stats. Signature spells for regenerating Arcane Power are definitely a necessity, IMO, or at least 1 signature spell per build for AP regeneration. Base regen, IMO, just won't bring these numbers. Passives are powerful necessities designed to be complimented with other skills. To answer you more directly, a regenerative passive or active (Familiar-Golden) coupled with a AP regenerating signature skill will bring the most damage.

Higher regeneration/Lower AP costs = More skill casts/more damage/shorter downtime

DKR