There is so much misinformation garbage floating around the community right now. I'd like to clear the waters and make some very important points about the direction of PvP in Diablo 3
Jay Wilson makes a couple of key points in this interview:
1) E-sports will not be encouraged by the Diablo 3 design team (in fact he made it sound like he would actively thwart any attempts)
2) The system for relegating ability effects for PvP and PvE only is already in place, yet at one point in the interview he says "over his dead body" would he let the PvP game alter design decisions. Funny thing is it wouldn't have to affect PvE whatsoever with a system in place that separates the two completely.
3) A ladder system has already been designed (although they're going out of their way to keep it invisible and un-competitive)
I think a couple of things need to be cleared up.
1) The term "casual" in the context of this interview is apparently synonymous with "non-competitive." It appears to me that Jay Wilson sees no middle ground between Diablo 3 as an E-Sport and having absolutely no ranking system with mindless zerg PvP. Is it just me or does this seem like 2 extremes? Why can't we just have a respectable PvP system without "turning the game into an e-sport?" Why the hell is this guy so adamant about not allowing a competitive scene to take hold in Diablo 3?
2) Again, with a system already in place for relegating PvP and PvE abilities, why is this guy such a crusader against a respectable competitive PvP system? It doesn't have to affect PvE in any way. It could only benefit the game and bring in a broader player base when done correctly.
3) Apparently there is already a match-making system implemented. Why go out of your way to keep it hidden?
Would it really be that difficult to appease the players who desire some competitive PvP flavor alongside their PvE in Diablo 3? Would the game REALLY suffer?
I personally think this guy's prejudice against competitive PvP is insanely ridiculous and unfounded, and that there is absolutely no reason that Diablo 3 can not maintain it's strong PvE basis with some fabulous PvP flavoring included.
I'm just hoping it's not to late for the devs to realize their mistake and allow competitive PvPers the opportunity to enjoy Diablo 3 like everyone else.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
Read my post again.
"expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp"
You want them to make some skills act differently in PVP then in PVE, this creates a problem for casual players that play the game very little to adjust, if it was that easy they would have done this is WoW a long time ago, there are other limitations then just the technical ones to get a system to work, and in many cases its the players them self.
Maybe they will make PVP more serious down the line but i somehow doubt it since they have WoW and SC2 for that, its probably not worth the headache for them.
If it's too difficult for someone THEY DON'T HAVE TO PvP!
PROBLEM SOLVED!
The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game. I.e. the rune system is "too complicated" for casuals. Would you like to do away with that as well?
(Obviously a rhetorical question to illustrate the point.)
It's actually mildly irritating that you would suggest that because there is a portion of the player base (even if it is a fictitious population in your head) that would have some slight difficulty understanding some new abilities for PvP that EVERYONE'S gameplay should be limited to what we currently have (team deathmatch, yuck). Do you not realize the insulting nature of your point to those of us who desire a respectable PvP system?
I've made some fairly lengthy posts in other thread, but it really comes down to a few very simple points:
1. Give us options. Team Death Match is simply not going to cut it, devs. We need competition. We need risk. We need rewards. We need goals to obtain. You really should know this, and I believe you do. It should not be THAT difficult to design a respectable PvP system that coincides with PvE. Make us a great well-rounded game that both PvP and PvErs can enjoy. We have faith in you.
2. Separate PvE from PvP. This is a key point, and must be done. There really is no valid argument (in my view) against separating PvP and PvE abilities. Have a designated design team for PvE, and one for PvP. That way balance changes don't have unintended consequences that pit "PvErs" against "PvPer's. We're all interested in the same thing. A great game.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
If the Diablo 3 "PvP team" has one tenth as much design talent as the other developers I have a tremendous amount of confidence that PvP in Diablo III has the potential to be absolutely fantastic, while maintaining every bit of it's PvE integrity.
The 2 points that I have come across so far as to why a respectable PvP system can not be implemented alongside PvE are:
1) Because Jay Wilson wants Diablo 3 to be a "PvE driven" game
2) Because it would be too complicated to implement a respectable PvP system alongside PvE.
Let's address both points:
1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with Diablo 3 being "PvE driven." I would actually (personal note here) prefer D3 being PvE driven. I.e. obtaining items from PvE and using them in PvP. This points hits directly at the heart of this post. Why does PvE and PvP have to be at odds? Why can't we have the best of both worlds and achieve an amazing well rounded game.
2) The complication argument is completely subjective and should never be used in a game where there is something like (what's the latest numbers?) 6 trillion combinations of build possibilities? Complication, or what I would call OPTIONS, are what make this game great. And please don't speak for an entire group of people (i.e. "casuals") and say that they wouldn't be able to HANDLE a more complex system. I completely disagree and think anyone who would make such a generalization is simply ignorant of the player base of Diablo. Regardless, if casuals find the PvP abilities too complicated they will not be forced to participate. Anyone can simply choose to avoid PvP altogether!
Again, there is simply no reason a great PvP and PvE system can not coincide together to formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
Judging from my experience with Blizzard games (since diablo 1 and on), there has been 1 dominant trend that has really held back their overall enjoyment and, in my opinion, done a huge disservice to their fan community. That trend is the war between "PvP" and "PvE." Let me preface this by stating that I am an avid PvPer, and that is what I play Blizzard titles for. But before marginalizing me as another elitist PvPers who only cares about razor edge balance and maximum e-peen, I'll also say that I do enjoy PvE (or PvM for d2ers), especially in Diablo 2. Without PvM it would just suck, pure and simple. The game acquires it's flavor from a great mix of PvM and PvP.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
Would it really be that difficult to design a portion of the game for avid PvPers, and a portion of the game for avid PvMers? Wouldn't that add to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone? I understand that there are concerns. For example balance changes for PvP in World of Warcraft affecting PvE, or vice-versa. But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. For the above dilemma, simply adding different effects for abilities in PvE and PvP would be a simple design decision in extreme cases where certain abilities are simply blatantly overpowered in PvP, but balanced and fun in PvE.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're all interested in the same thing here. We all want the absolute best all-around game possible. Of course there are aspects of the game that are more important for each of us, and that is probably why PvPers are so upset right now because, let's be honest, the most recent info is less than promising. So instead of fighting each other, let's work together and brainstorm some ideas so that PvM and PvP can coincide and formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
Can it really be that difficult to design and maintain a respectable PvP system? Compared to, say, designing spell effects, evironment, characters, skills, etc etc. What does the PvP team actually do?
Let's say they:
Tweak current abilities to have "PvP only" effects (PvP team might not even be responsible for this).
Maintain a ladder system
Maintain class balance
Brainstorm new pvp ideas???
2 of these have already been firmly stated that they will not be implemented (ladder system and class balance).
I mean, honestly. Let's be real. What do these guys actually do?? Does this "PvP" team consist of 2 guys playing darts all day and getting paid? Obviously I'm being facetious, but it just doesn't seem that difficult (or threatening to PvMers for that matter) to maintain a respectable system for PvPers to enjoy.
To me it just seems like a logical way to design a great game.
1
If you haven't already, watch this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E452S_fJwA&feature=player_embedded
Jay Wilson makes a couple of key points in this interview:
1) E-sports will not be encouraged by the Diablo 3 design team (in fact he made it sound like he would actively thwart any attempts)
2) The system for relegating ability effects for PvP and PvE only is already in place, yet at one point in the interview he says "over his dead body" would he let the PvP game alter design decisions. Funny thing is it wouldn't have to affect PvE whatsoever with a system in place that separates the two completely.
3) A ladder system has already been designed (although they're going out of their way to keep it invisible and un-competitive)
I think a couple of things need to be cleared up.
1) The term "casual" in the context of this interview is apparently synonymous with "non-competitive." It appears to me that Jay Wilson sees no middle ground between Diablo 3 as an E-Sport and having absolutely no ranking system with mindless zerg PvP. Is it just me or does this seem like 2 extremes? Why can't we just have a respectable PvP system without "turning the game into an e-sport?" Why the hell is this guy so adamant about not allowing a competitive scene to take hold in Diablo 3?
2) Again, with a system already in place for relegating PvP and PvE abilities, why is this guy such a crusader against a respectable competitive PvP system? It doesn't have to affect PvE in any way. It could only benefit the game and bring in a broader player base when done correctly.
3) Apparently there is already a match-making system implemented. Why go out of your way to keep it hidden?
Would it really be that difficult to appease the players who desire some competitive PvP flavor alongside their PvE in Diablo 3? Would the game REALLY suffer?
I personally think this guy's prejudice against competitive PvP is insanely ridiculous and unfounded, and that there is absolutely no reason that Diablo 3 can not maintain it's strong PvE basis with some fabulous PvP flavoring included.
I'm just hoping it's not to late for the devs to realize their mistake and allow competitive PvPers the opportunity to enjoy Diablo 3 like everyone else.
0
If it's too difficult for someone THEY DON'T HAVE TO PvP!
PROBLEM SOLVED!
The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game. I.e. the rune system is "too complicated" for casuals. Would you like to do away with that as well?
(Obviously a rhetorical question to illustrate the point.)
It's actually mildly irritating that you would suggest that because there is a portion of the player base (even if it is a fictitious population in your head) that would have some slight difficulty understanding some new abilities for PvP that EVERYONE'S gameplay should be limited to what we currently have (team deathmatch, yuck). Do you not realize the insulting nature of your point to those of us who desire a respectable PvP system?
0
1. Give us options. Team Death Match is simply not going to cut it, devs. We need competition. We need risk. We need rewards. We need goals to obtain. You really should know this, and I believe you do. It should not be THAT difficult to design a respectable PvP system that coincides with PvE. Make us a great well-rounded game that both PvP and PvErs can enjoy. We have faith in you.
2. Separate PvE from PvP. This is a key point, and must be done. There really is no valid argument (in my view) against separating PvP and PvE abilities. Have a designated design team for PvE, and one for PvP. That way balance changes don't have unintended consequences that pit "PvErs" against "PvPer's. We're all interested in the same thing. A great game.
0
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
If the Diablo 3 "PvP team" has one tenth as much design talent as the other developers I have a tremendous amount of confidence that PvP in Diablo III has the potential to be absolutely fantastic, while maintaining every bit of it's PvE integrity.
0
1) Because Jay Wilson wants Diablo 3 to be a "PvE driven" game
2) Because it would be too complicated to implement a respectable PvP system alongside PvE.
Let's address both points:
1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with Diablo 3 being "PvE driven." I would actually (personal note here) prefer D3 being PvE driven. I.e. obtaining items from PvE and using them in PvP. This points hits directly at the heart of this post. Why does PvE and PvP have to be at odds? Why can't we have the best of both worlds and achieve an amazing well rounded game.
2) The complication argument is completely subjective and should never be used in a game where there is something like (what's the latest numbers?) 6 trillion combinations of build possibilities? Complication, or what I would call OPTIONS, are what make this game great. And please don't speak for an entire group of people (i.e. "casuals") and say that they wouldn't be able to HANDLE a more complex system. I completely disagree and think anyone who would make such a generalization is simply ignorant of the player base of Diablo. Regardless, if casuals find the PvP abilities too complicated they will not be forced to participate. Anyone can simply choose to avoid PvP altogether!
Again, there is simply no reason a great PvP and PvE system can not coincide together to formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
0
Explain why.
0
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
Would it really be that difficult to design a portion of the game for avid PvPers, and a portion of the game for avid PvMers? Wouldn't that add to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone? I understand that there are concerns. For example balance changes for PvP in World of Warcraft affecting PvE, or vice-versa. But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. For the above dilemma, simply adding different effects for abilities in PvE and PvP would be a simple design decision in extreme cases where certain abilities are simply blatantly overpowered in PvP, but balanced and fun in PvE.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're all interested in the same thing here. We all want the absolute best all-around game possible. Of course there are aspects of the game that are more important for each of us, and that is probably why PvPers are so upset right now because, let's be honest, the most recent info is less than promising. So instead of fighting each other, let's work together and brainstorm some ideas so that PvM and PvP can coincide and formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
0
Let's say they:
Tweak current abilities to have "PvP only" effects (PvP team might not even be responsible for this).
Maintain a ladder system
Maintain class balance
Brainstorm new pvp ideas???
2 of these have already been firmly stated that they will not be implemented (ladder system and class balance).
I mean, honestly. Let's be real. What do these guys actually do?? Does this "PvP" team consist of 2 guys playing darts all day and getting paid? Obviously I'm being facetious, but it just doesn't seem that difficult (or threatening to PvMers for that matter) to maintain a respectable system for PvPers to enjoy.
To me it just seems like a logical way to design a great game.
0
0
How could you possibly equate an item grab system with e-sports? Are you delusional, sir?
Since when did providing options to the player base become a bad thing? You don't ever have to participate!
For those of us who may find this option compelling and fun, why not allow it?
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0
Winner takes all!
Thoughts?