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It never ceases to surprise me that people still aren't aware there are no immunities in D3.

It's been posted on this section of the forums alone at least 10 times.

Why Prodigy? The build uses 0 AP.

Also, what are you talking about with "silenced"?

Here's my anti-wizard build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#dkbPeY!aWb!aZZZbZ

I'm just going to provide one of the many explanations why you can't compare Meteor to Disintegrate:

Circle AoE vs Line.

To blindly claim that Disintegrate is superior to Meteor based off base damage numbers of the spell is naive. Are there some cases Disintegrate is going to do more damage? Sure. The reverse is true as well.

Hyrda is in the Beta (Arcane Enchanted monsters spawn Alabaster Hydra) and it attacks disgustingly fast and seems to be the lead cause of deaths in the beta (AKA it's the only thing I've seen streamers die to).

Spells have trade-offs. Look at the Sig Spells. Shock Pulse does the most damage of the 4 of them because you have no control over it. You shoot out the bolts and hope they hit something. Now you can increase the chance of that by getting closer to the enemy, but you have to remember the Wizard is the most frail of the 5 classes. Trade off. The tradeoff for Disintegrate, Ray of Frost, and Arcane Torrent is that you have to stand in place to channel. Yes they do a lot of damage, but they also make you extremely vulnerable at the same time.

As I keep saying: channel builds are great for non-Hardcore multiplayer.

Quote from oneoftheorder

On a flip side of that, Electrocute says it can jump, hitting "up to [2] enemies;" if we go by that wording, it is not saying it jump to 2 enemies after the first for a total of 3 hits, but that it hits a total of 2 enemies. If you can hit with all of them, I think Shock Pulse is going to be better (assuming golden runes), and if there are more than 3 to hit and you're willing to get up close, golden Spectral Blade will probably take the cake.

Yah, I brought this up in another post, but Electrocute does actually hit 3 targets. Someone had a great video of the beta showing it (no runes in beta so it must be base effect).

Quote from Hycoolio

Quote from ArcaneWeapon

Why Frost Nova? If enemies are frozen in place all your knock-back effects are pointless.

Good question. My thoughts were that they get pushed back even if they are frozen, but if im wrong i guess i should swap it out for something, hmmm... Still need something reliable as frost nova to survive in the harder parts of the game. Maybe just add lower cooldown on wave of force and add another skill instead of frost nova. Tips?

Yah, it'd work if you can push frozen enemies, I can't imagine that would be the case though. I'm not sure you need Wave and the MW + Spectral Blade combo. It seems like you'd use one or the other, but together they fill exactly the same role. I dunno, this really needs testing more than anything.

Why Frost Nova? If enemies are frozen in place all your knock-back effects are pointless.

Quote from emyln

Quote from ArcaneWeapon

Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.

Hmmm I guess it could work that way too. But I've got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that it works the way I envision it to, all 8 will hit the same target

Quote from DKR_87

I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.

EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?

Glad that I've at least generated some curiosity into Magic Missile. Have I mentioned I love the spell? (Visions of D&D 1st edition, 1 missile every 2 levels).

I have been eyeing Arcane Torrent, and I interpret it as calc damage, add Attack attribute Dmg, multiply by 1.6, and multiply again by 2.2 But then again that's a lot of damage, and I don't quite understand if AT does area dmg? casting delay? Or does it deal dmg at the precise point the mouse is over, and instead of a ray it just... does damage.

Totally random side note:

Yes, I love Magic Missile from D&D. In 3.5 I built an Epic Spell with MM as the seed. Upped the missile count to 20 and the damage from d4s to d20s. Yah. 20d20, no save, no attack role, guaranteed damage. Called it Missile Storm. It was sick.

Quote from emyln

Darn, you're right. I thought it was saying we could not get the +50% damage more than once every 1.5 sec. Darn, that passive has really dropped in value.

I am assuming that MM will always hit a target as it does at level 1, the only difference is there are now 8 missiles. So when faced with mobs that block attacks (like the skeleton minons that Leroic summons) even having some missiles blocked would be better than having an entire attack blocked. But only time will tell for sure.

Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.

Quote from emyln

1 mistake DKR_87, your final scenario, adding Familiar with Golden rune, also means the total damage is *1.2 not *1.6. Meaning the dmg is actually lower in your last scenario, it would be 19272 dmg.

Wow lots of calculations but I had to prove a point to myself. Crimson MM is not the way to go IMO, it just doesn't make sense to me why you would use signatures for AP regen only, when you can use it for regen + dmg.
I got roughly the same calculations you had then changed it to an Indigo Rune MM. And yes I know it uses up an additional Passive so some might deem that unworthy but I think it is worth the passive. At the very least, its worth considering. The numbers speak for themselves.

Scenario 1: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Prodigy]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 100
AP Regen = 12.5/sec
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max
= 16710.4 dmg
*************************** 24 sec RoF / 16 sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 100
AP Regen = 12.5/sec
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max
= 19376 dmg
*************************** 20 sec RoF / 20 sec MM

Scenario 2: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM + Astral Presence] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Astral Presence + Prodigy]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 18956.8 dmg
*************************** 28 sec RoF / 12 sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 20640 dmg
*************************** 24 sec RoF / 16 sec MM

Scenario 3: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM + Astral Presence + Crimson Storm Ar] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Astral Presence + Prodigy + Crimson Storm Ar]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-22AP) [Crimson Rune + Storm Armor Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 21203.2 dmg
*************************** 32 sec RoF / 8 Sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-22AP) [Crimson Rune + Storm Armor Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 23168 dmg
*************************** 32 sec RoF / 8 sec MM

PS. We are assuming a casting of 1 MM per sec. If arcane dynamo is anything to go by, we should with +casting gear achieve 8 signatures every 1.5 seconds.

Very interesting on the Indigo MM with Prodigy. Of course the numbers assume that all 8 hit. There's a vid of rank 1 indigo MM so it seems like with all 8 it'll be a full frontal cone. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to hit with them all.

I think you're a little confused on Dynamo. The 1.5 restriction is to ensure that no mater how fast you cast sig spells, it will always take 12 seconds to get a dynamo charge. It's there to prevent the passive from being 'okay' to 'amazing'. In my opinion they could afford to lower it to 1 from 1.5, it's not a terribly attractive pick as it stands.

Quote from DKR_87

If you switch Familiar-Crimson to Familiar-Golden you would be able to cast meteor more times, doing more damage even compared to a 40% increase in damage from Familiar-Crimson. Same with RoF.

Just suggestions,
DKR

There has to be a cutoff where Golden would equal more damage right? Cause Crimson will give more damage for 1 - 2, but Golden ends up giving more damage after a set amount of time for chain casting. Any idea of an approximation on how many seconds it takes for Golden to pass Crimson?

Quote from DKR_87

Minus a couple, or few, anyone else a bit disappointed by the Passive abilities selection?

VERY much so. Especially after looking at other class's passives. It's okay though, they can't drop massive flaming balls from the heavens.

Just for clarity you say Astral Presence gives 2.5 regen when it only gives 2. Your math uses 2 so it's fine. Seems like just a typo.

Quote from Lanthazer

I'm the only one to read that indigo drops smallers meteors as in they won't cover the whole area of a normal meteor meaning that they won't hit 100% of the time.
Without even saying that indigo tends to also increase the width of AoE on a lot of other skills don't you think the spread is increased here too ?

Exactly why this is all theory.

DKR, you multiplied the burn damage by 3, wasn't that assuming dps over 3 seconds? I wouldn't say it's super weak. Meteor has never really been about the burn damage (even in D2, it's more of a perk), it's all about that initial massive burst.

Quote from Hypernova

Indigo Meteor is not better than Crimson. Indigo does that damage per target hit not in an AoE. The Crimson Meteor does that damage in an AoE.

Also, your math does not include the fire damage over time. You have to realise that burn damage will be amplified not only by the 60% but also by your gear. This eventually puts Meter well above Arcane Orb.

Right, first off without it to test we have no idea how it works. Anyways I'll run you through my logic on this:

1). I think we both agree that base, un-runed Meteor hits a circle area and does it's initial damage to everything in that area (an AoE spell). It then leaves a 3 second wall of fire effect in that area.

2). The description of Indigo reads "Unleash a volley of 14 smaller meteors that strike for 139 - 185 Fire damage." So instead of dropping one meteor, you're pretty much dropping 14 instead. There's likely no burn effect and there doesn't need to be.

3). The spell is still an AoE. It's going to hit the exact same area, just multiple times.

Basically you claim "Indigo does that damage per target hit" which just makes no sense whatsoever. Instead of 1 meteor, you drop 14. Nowhere does it state that each mini meteor can only hit one target or anything like that. Every Meteor rune is an AoE, the base spell is an AoE, why would the Indigo rune alone NOT be an AoE???

The trade off between Crimson and Indigo is that Crimson does all of it's damage in one blast and leaves a fire patch. Indigo, ASSUMING ALL 14 HIT, will do more damage.

Also, something that could be a wording issue, the description of the aftereffect burn says x - x damage OVER 3 seconds, not per second for 3 seconds. There's a huge difference. (It means your math is wrong DKR).

Crimson - 469 - 641 initial damage, 63 - 94 damage over the next 3 seconds. That's a total of 532 - 735 BASE damage.
Indigo - 139 - 189 initial damage times 14 meteors = 1,946 - 2,646 BASE damage. (Assuming all 14 hit)

Pretty obvious which is doing more damage right? Even if you only hit with half of the 14 meteors you still do 973 - 1,323 BASE damage, more than Crimson.

Quote from DKR_87

Yea, I was thinking that. I appreciate it.

Concerning that video, perhaps that one of what looked like several meteors hitting a doorway,maybe that was Meteor-Indigo?

Did you say that? Was that point? Sorry if it was, I got lost the last couple of posts. Regardless, I got all this cool data and stuff, so Id be more than happy to crunch some numbers for you if I can for a build of yours

Yah, that's what I was thinking, but now it seems like it might just be an older version of Torrent. I'm unsure.

The problem there is that there's so many awesome builds I couldn't even really give you my favorite to run numbers on. Especially since most of them use spells like Blizzard, Meteor, and Hydra coupled with Crimson Mirror Image.

I do appreciate the offer though, I'll get back to you if I come up with something.