The current situation is not acceptable. As it is, Magic Find is the definition of selfishness. By sacrificing damage for magic find you penalize your team's killing speed/item drop rate in favor of increasing your own item drop rate. The most ideal situation is to sacrifice as much damage as possible for magic find, and to have party members who sacrifice as little damage as possible for magic find. It's disturbingly similar to the Prisoner's Dilemma.
Casting speed/weapon speed (the same thing right now. I think Blizzard will remove casting speed since they want to go to weapon speed to effect casting speed.
Casting speed will still have a limited effect on channeling skills since there is likely a start up and finishing casting animation. But during the channeling it has no effect.
That's the exact opposite of what I heard. I was under the impression that the tick speed on channeled spells was dependent on attack speed.
Why would they do this? Before, Impale sounded like the Javelin gun from Deadspace 2 which would go straight through enemies, carrying both enemy and projectile to the other side of the room where the javelin would land embedded in the wall. I was super hyped for it, but now one of the art geniuses in charge has decided that was too cool and replaced it with a dinky dagger throw. A dinky PINK dagger throw. If this weren't totally serious I'd swear it was an April Fool's joke.
Sorry I couldn't follow your Basic Attack DPS calculation in the excel sheet, but I'd like to make a note on a possible pitfall when calculating the DPS contribution from damage and attack speed for dual wield.
The top equation is wrong. The bottom one is correct. They're the same if the attack speeds on each weapon are equal however, which makes them easy to mistake for one another.
Looks cool! I've added calculations for optimal gem distribution and wrote an article on EHP. The Defense vs Vitality calculations are very widely applicable, but the Attack vs Precision ones less so. Hopefully it'll be useful as a starting point for more general calculations.
They give a VERY in-depth explanation about 1h vs 2h weapon balance for the Wizard. Very interesting stuff and it's nice to finally hear an intelligent well-thought out explanation on what Blizzard's thought process is.
Notable facts: DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING FACTS ARE PRESENTED IN THE CONTEXT OF CURRENT INTERNAL ITEM BALANCE, AND WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY CHANGE
Overkill is significant
2h weapons do 15~25% more DPS than 1h weapons
1h + orb matches 2h weapon DPS, and adds lots of extra stats on top of that
2h weapons have much better Arcane Power efficiency than 1h weapons, so long as all your arcane power comes from regen over time (i.e. +x arcane power / second)
After all equipment stat bonuses are taken into consideration, 1h+orb almost always has better character sheet DPS than 2h.
1h weapons are better at "fishing for procs" i.e. +x resource on crit
1h weapons provide better mobility due to less time spent standing still
Blizzard currently doesn't think the arcane power efficiency on 2h weapons makes up for the statistical DPS and proc fishing advantages of 1h weapons, and thinks 1h weapons are OP.
That comment on 1h weapons being better for mobility seems strange though. If hypothetically a 2h and 1h weapon setup had the same DPS (they don't, I know), a shot with a 1h would take less time, and deal proportionally less damage. So you would expect overall damage to be proportional to time spent standing still and to be the same regardless of weapon. I suspect that it may be possible to cancel attacks by moving. If it's possible to cancel attacks after a flat amount of time, then that would indeed favor 1h weapons, but without that kind of cancelling, 2h weapons wouldn't really have a problem. So for example, if you used a 2h over a 1h, you'd just need to spend longer amounts of time running away from enemies, longer amounts of time standing still, and deal larger amounts of damage.
So overall, I would expect both to have the same mobility, moving and standing still for the same amounts of time regardless of weapon. I would just expect 1h users would switch between moving and standing still more often. You could say 2h weapon users would require more foresight, while 1h weapon users would require more clicks.
You can't make a comparison until you know how common +APS and flat +damage bonuses are. If there's a disparity between how common those bonuses are, it completely changes the relative power of each weapon type.
The data i use is for basic items, the mods doesn't count.
With the information of weapon's base attack speed and base damage, it's possible to calculate the impact of any mod in all weapon types. So I can really assume stuff like "flat damage is better on bows".
Prove of that estatement:
i. Assuming theres no critical hits, just to simplify the model.
ii. DPS' means it's the DPS of an weapon with +x flat bonus damage.
The improvement is 1.4*x. I can do the same with Crossbows and find the improvement is just x, wich is smaller. In dual wielding: since the bonus only apply to half of the attacks (and since all pistol crossbow have the same speed) i can assume if one corssbow have +x fire damage, it will only affect (x/2)*APS the DPS. So a +x flat damage will increase my DPS by 1.035*x wich is lower the 1.4*x from bows.
If bows will be better because of this, totally depends on the size of x and on critical hits damage and frequency. Also, many skills doesn't proc the elemental flat bonus, another thing to have in mind.
The problem is that you also have APS bonuses. Therefore, the bow DPS would be
DPS' means the DPS of a weapon with +x flat bonus damage and +y APS.
You can't make any conclusions without knowing what at least one of these variables are. If, hypothetically, +APS bonuses vastly overshadow flat +damage bonuses, crossbows and bows will be better than dual wielding, while if flat +damage bonuses overshadow +APS bonuses, dual wielding will be better.
(x/2)*APS the DPS. So a +x flat damage will increase my DPS by 1.035*x wich is lower the 1.4*x from bows.
Most hand xbows have 1.8 APS base, for 0.9*x contribution from flat elemental damage. Don't forget though that flat +damage on rings has been established to affect both weapons, so that would provide 1.8*x contribution for dual wielding, which beats bows.
What does this mean? What does weapon choice have to do with mobility?
In combat mobility. The character's attack speed determines the animation time between using a skill (or a normal attack) and start moving again. I notice that while dual wielding (2.07 speed) i could easilly attack, move some yards and attack again (like playing Stalkers in Starcraft 2). This allowed me to keep damaging monsters and avoiding arrow for exemple. While using a bow, i had harder time doing that, because my character takes more time to attack, enough time to monster gets closer or a arrow hit me.
The only way this could be an advantage for dual wielding is if you're able to cancel the attack animation a flat number of seconds before it completes. If you cannot cancel, or if you can only cancel after some percentage of the animation is completed, then you could just move more often between each 2h attack and get the same net result as if you were dual wielding.
So, all in all, dualwielding is faster than one big weapon, but it does approximately the same DPS?
Big news.
No. 2h weapons are better for cooldown skills and dual wielding is better for utility (non-damaging) skills and skill effects. Also 2hs are better with +APS bonuses and dual wielding is better with flat +damage and other flat bonuses like +healing on hit.
First off, you cannot compare a default bonus for having an item equipped like the 15% bonus for dual crossbows to the best bonus on a legendary item. It's not comparable at all. On the legendary item you get that 12-13% bonus and a couple other random effects. On a level 60 set or legendary pistol crossbow you get things like +30% damage, +60% crit, etc. If your comparison is between the quiver or two legendary pistol crossbows, the biggest advantage of the quiver is already being nullifed by the default bonus of dual wielding and all the other bonuses on your weapons are gravy.
They are absolutely not gravy. We know that at the very least, +elemental damage bonuses only apply to the weapon they're on, and not your other weapon. If any other stats follow this pattern, it significantly weakens offhand pistols.
I also don't understand where you are getting your information that two handers have a higher base DPS, the highest level hand crossbow does ~168-190DPS by default whereas the highest level crossbow does 171-183 and the highest level bow does 164-181. How is that higher base DPS than the hand crossbow? Is there something I'm missing, or are you basing your numbers off different kinds of items? You wanted me to quote specifics, there are your specifics. The highest level item of each of those classes and the one with the highest base DPS is the hand crossbow.
I was basing that on the beta items. I guess the trend doesn't continue at high levels. Also, you should compare weapons of the same quality and same number of random properties. Right now hand xbows are only better because they're set items and there aren't any set bows or xbows listed.
I'm not saying you can't make a build that would exploit the benefits of having a crossbow instead of dual hand crossbows, but I just don't see any basis for saying it's better. It's just a matter of playstyle, just like everything else.
I have a basis for saying it's better because it has particular benefits, as you mention. Whether that requires a particular playstyle is beyond the issue. I'm just listing the relative advantages of each weapon. And like I said, 2h weapons get more benefit from passive resource regen than dual wielding at the very least.
You can't make a comparison until you know how common +APS and flat +damage bonuses are. If there's a disparity between how common those bonuses are, it completely changes the relative power of each weapon type.
Lowest combat mobility
What does this mean? What does weapon choice have to do with mobility?
I've compiled my own list of pros and cons here. We seem to be in agreement for most of them.
Slow weapon (3.0 AS) 100 damage per shot. Without +attacks from gear. 30 sec= 10 shots = 1000 damage
Slow weapon (3.0 AS) 100 damage per shot. Now +1 attack from gear. 30 sec= 20 shots = 2000 damage
Fast weapon (1.5 AS) 50 damage per shot. Without +attacks from gear. 30 sec= 20 shots = 1000 damage
Fast weapon (1.5 AS) 50 damage per shot. Now +1 attack from gear. 30 sec= 40 shots = 2000 damage
If I understand this correctly, dual wielding fast weapons with high dps would make that an insane stat (since the bonuses actually double per weapon)? I haven't seen the new items, but do the slow and fast weapons have the same dps (ie faster weapons have slower minimum and maximum damage that they make up for in attack speed)? If so, that is kinda insane is it not?
*Edit: Even if my calculations are totally wrong, but the principle behind the +1 attack stat is the same. Damn that's one insane stat ain't it?
The "+1 attack" stat you show there appears to be making it so that you deal damage twice whenever you attack. I know of no such stat.
Your Attack Speed ratings are also very different from how the game shows them. They appear to be attack delays, while attack speed ratings in Diablo 3 are measured in Attacks per Second.
Your understanding of dual wielding is also completely off. Dual wielding gives you a +15% Attack speed bonus. Your attack speed is not doubled. When dual wielding, the weapon with which your damage is calculated alternates between mainhand and offhand.
How it would work is:
Slow weapon (1.0 APS) 100 damage per shot. Without +APS from gear. 10 sec= 10 shots = 1000 damage
Slow weapon (1.0 APS) 100 damage per shot. Now +1 APS from gear. 10 sec= 20 shots = 2000 damage
Fast weapon (2.0 APS) 50 damage per shot. Without +APS from gear. 10 sec= 20 shots = 1000 damage
Fast weapon (2.0 APS) 50 damage per shot. Now +1 APS from gear. 10 sec= 30 shots = 1500 damage
I'm not sure whether the stat actually is a percentage, or instead really an arbitrary "% faster attack", which shows as more intuitive "+ attacks per second" user end. This is just guesswork, but it seems such a rookie math error to bias slow weapons with such a stat. So my guess (without any proper research) is that the stat scales on each weapon based on its speed.
+APS bonuses are not an error as long as flat +damage bonuses are just as prevalent since flat bonuses favor high attack speed weapons.
You can't really compare the base 15% bonus on dual wielding to a legendary quiver. If you have legendary or set hand crossbows, they have a significant increase in attack speed as well, so it's not something that "balances it out" unless you plan on only ever using crappy hand crossbows and using legendary everything else.
Equipping a 1h crossbow in mainhand and a 1h crossbow in the offhand gives you a +15% attack speed bonus. Equipping a legendary quiver along with your 2h weapon gives you a 12~13% attack speed bonus. They are very much comparable.
And if skill attack speed isn't directly related to weapon speed, that's just all kinds of screwed up. I cannot imagine that it wouldn't be linked, because if it's not and only auto-attacks are related to weapon speed, you'd either never use skills, or get the slowest weapon possible because it would do the most damage.
"Not proportional to" does not mean "is not affected by".
And last I heard, testing on one of the Barbarian's attacks indicated that its speed had some constant attack speed modifier, making it not proportional to weapon attack speed.
I don't think your conclusion that 2 handed weapons do more damage is accurate.
Mind giving any factual reasons? I have plenty in my post. Higher base DPS on 2h weapons, more damage from cooldown attacks, as well as greater opportunity cost for using resources on utility skills. All these make 2h weapons favor damage over utility.
It's not that simple to determine whether dual wield or 2h weapons are better, or in which cases one is better. There's actually quite a few factors to consider even with the Hatred Generator/Spender system.
Here I've made a pretty comprehensive list.
1h Weapons:
PRO:
Flat +damage favors 1h weapons.
Flat +life on hit (and other flat bonuses) favor 1h weapons.
Less Overkill
Dual Wielding gives +15% Attack Speed
Higher base attack speed means more utility skills.*
CON:
Attack speed improves Active resource regen, but not passive resource regen.**
Attack speed does not change skill cooldowns, which means high cooldown attacks will contribute less DPS.
Dual Wielding a bad offhand weapon lowers your dps
2h Weapons:
PRO:
+APS bonuses favor 2h weapons.
Legendary Offhand Quivers give +12~13% Attack Speed, offsetting the Dual Wield bonus, at least for Demon Hunters.
High base damage improves the damage resulting from both active and passive resource regen, unlike high attack speed.
High Cooldown attacks deal more damage
Only need to get one weapon with perfect stats
CON:
More Overkill
Less attack speed means fewer utility skills
*Assuming that skill attack speed is proportional to weapon attack speed
**Passive resource regen is resources you get over time. Active resource regen is resources you get from using skills.
CONCLUSION:
ASSUMING that skill attack speed is proportional to weapon attack speed...2h weapons do more damage, while dual wielding gets you more flat healing/resource regen on hit bonuses, and more utility skills (heals, snares, etc...)
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http://i.imgur.com/NV9lJ.jpg
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The top equation is wrong. The bottom one is correct. They're the same if the attack speeds on each weapon are equal however, which makes them easy to mistake for one another.
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They give a VERY in-depth explanation about 1h vs 2h weapon balance for the Wizard. Very interesting stuff and it's nice to finally hear an intelligent well-thought out explanation on what Blizzard's thought process is.
Notable facts:
DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING FACTS ARE PRESENTED IN THE CONTEXT OF CURRENT INTERNAL ITEM BALANCE, AND WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY CHANGE
That comment on 1h weapons being better for mobility seems strange though. If hypothetically a 2h and 1h weapon setup had the same DPS (they don't, I know), a shot with a 1h would take less time, and deal proportionally less damage. So you would expect overall damage to be proportional to time spent standing still and to be the same regardless of weapon. I suspect that it may be possible to cancel attacks by moving. If it's possible to cancel attacks after a flat amount of time, then that would indeed favor 1h weapons, but without that kind of cancelling, 2h weapons wouldn't really have a problem. So for example, if you used a 2h over a 1h, you'd just need to spend longer amounts of time running away from enemies, longer amounts of time standing still, and deal larger amounts of damage.
So overall, I would expect both to have the same mobility, moving and standing still for the same amounts of time regardless of weapon. I would just expect 1h users would switch between moving and standing still more often. You could say 2h weapon users would require more foresight, while 1h weapon users would require more clicks.
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The problem is that you also have APS bonuses. Therefore, the bow DPS would be
DPS' means the DPS of a weapon with +x flat bonus damage and +y APS.
You can't make any conclusions without knowing what at least one of these variables are. If, hypothetically, +APS bonuses vastly overshadow flat +damage bonuses, crossbows and bows will be better than dual wielding, while if flat +damage bonuses overshadow +APS bonuses, dual wielding will be better.
Most hand xbows have 1.8 APS base, for 0.9*x contribution from flat elemental damage. Don't forget though that flat +damage on rings has been established to affect both weapons, so that would provide 1.8*x contribution for dual wielding, which beats bows.
The only way this could be an advantage for dual wielding is if you're able to cancel the attack animation a flat number of seconds before it completes. If you cannot cancel, or if you can only cancel after some percentage of the animation is completed, then you could just move more often between each 2h attack and get the same net result as if you were dual wielding.
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They are absolutely not gravy. We know that at the very least, +elemental damage bonuses only apply to the weapon they're on, and not your other weapon. If any other stats follow this pattern, it significantly weakens offhand pistols.
I was basing that on the beta items. I guess the trend doesn't continue at high levels. Also, you should compare weapons of the same quality and same number of random properties. Right now hand xbows are only better because they're set items and there aren't any set bows or xbows listed.
I have a basis for saying it's better because it has particular benefits, as you mention. Whether that requires a particular playstyle is beyond the issue. I'm just listing the relative advantages of each weapon. And like I said, 2h weapons get more benefit from passive resource regen than dual wielding at the very least.
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What does this mean? What does weapon choice have to do with mobility?
I've compiled my own list of pros and cons here. We seem to be in agreement for most of them.
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/31283-acting-faster-on-double-crossbow-wielders/page__view__findpost__p__698701
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The "+1 attack" stat you show there appears to be making it so that you deal damage twice whenever you attack. I know of no such stat.
Your Attack Speed ratings are also very different from how the game shows them. They appear to be attack delays, while attack speed ratings in Diablo 3 are measured in Attacks per Second.
Your understanding of dual wielding is also completely off. Dual wielding gives you a +15% Attack speed bonus. Your attack speed is not doubled. When dual wielding, the weapon with which your damage is calculated alternates between mainhand and offhand.
How it would work is:
Slow weapon (1.0 APS) 100 damage per shot. Without +APS from gear. 10 sec= 10 shots = 1000 damage
Slow weapon (1.0 APS) 100 damage per shot. Now +1 APS from gear. 10 sec= 20 shots = 2000 damage
Fast weapon (2.0 APS) 50 damage per shot. Without +APS from gear. 10 sec= 20 shots = 1000 damage
Fast weapon (2.0 APS) 50 damage per shot. Now +1 APS from gear. 10 sec= 30 shots = 1500 damage
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See this post.
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/31283-acting-faster-on-double-crossbow-wielders/page__view__findpost__p__698701
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"Not proportional to" does not mean "is not affected by".
And last I heard, testing on one of the Barbarian's attacks indicated that its speed had some constant attack speed modifier, making it not proportional to weapon attack speed.
Mind giving any factual reasons? I have plenty in my post. Higher base DPS on 2h weapons, more damage from cooldown attacks, as well as greater opportunity cost for using resources on utility skills. All these make 2h weapons favor damage over utility.
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Here I've made a pretty comprehensive list.
1h Weapons:
PRO:
- Flat +damage favors 1h weapons.
- Flat +life on hit (and other flat bonuses) favor 1h weapons.
- Less Overkill
- Dual Wielding gives +15% Attack Speed
- Higher base attack speed means more utility skills.*
CON:2h Weapons:
PRO:
- +APS bonuses favor 2h weapons.
- Legendary Offhand Quivers give +12~13% Attack Speed, offsetting the Dual Wield bonus, at least for Demon Hunters.
- High base damage improves the damage resulting from both active and passive resource regen, unlike high attack speed.
- High Cooldown attacks deal more damage
- Only need to get one weapon with perfect stats
CON:*Assuming that skill attack speed is proportional to weapon attack speed
**Passive resource regen is resources you get over time. Active resource regen is resources you get from using skills.
CONCLUSION:
ASSUMING that skill attack speed is proportional to weapon attack speed...2h weapons do more damage, while dual wielding gets you more flat healing/resource regen on hit bonuses, and more utility skills (heals, snares, etc...)