@Silfury
I said he needed some sort of sustain to stay alive. You said I was wrong and listed your stats which include 600 LoH and 750 lps regen. That's a decent amount of sustain and that's exactly what I said the OP needs to be successful.
13k dps is on the low side for a3. Your def stats are good enough if you play careful, but the problem is that your champ fights are going to take awhile and you have basically no sustain. All the def stats and hp in the world aren't going to do you any good if you don't have a way to refill your globe.
The reason no one is interested is because of no main stat (i.e. str/dex/int). That ammy would be a downgrade for a 150 mainstat + 7% crit blue quality item. Basically you were one roll off from an amazingly good item.
I think people are forgetting about another route Blizzard could take with the set. If you read the post you'll notice how they said they are not changing the set bonus for the current drops:
We are working on Legendary item changes for a future patch, as I'm sure you know, which could change the set in any variety of ways. I don't know what those changes could be yet. But regardless those changes will only affect items that drop after that patch. They aren't retroactive. Any Natalya's items that drop before that patch (ie the ones dropping now), and the set bonus, will remain unchanged regardless of future Legendary item updates.
My guess is that when they buff legendaries they will nerf the set bonus. You won't be able to mix/match the old and new sets and then you'll be torn between a reduced set bonus vs a large increase in stats. This way they don't screw over the people that dropped a lot of gold on the old set, but as long as they don't nerf the 4pc into the ground the new set will still have value.
Also while in a team with another monk, I consider MoC+Overawe pretty much mandatory. However, I fail to see what MoH brings to the table in this particular case. It gives the other monk a negligable 310lps and a shield, which if spammed, takes away the active component of MoC (remember, active components of mantras don't stack).
I guess my TL;DR would be: the DR granted by ToN doesn't outperform Hard target by nearly as much as some people are lead to believe, and there seems to be many miconceptions of what can and can't be dodged. Just because some effects seemingly can't be dodged, doesn't rule out dodge as an important mitigation stat.
I don't get why everyone thinks 310 lps is garbage. Here's how I look at it (and I could be wrong). Dodge is the superior mitigation choice because a dodged hit is no damage. However this isn't an mmo and your job isn't just to tank damage, being able to have more uptime on your target (especially if that target is molten/plague) is also something you need to consider because a dead mob deals no dps. If you have enough gear that staying alive is not longer the issue and you want to increase your time on target then there is something to be said about regen mechanics that people are overlooking. Here's an example to explain my logic:
Let's say plague ticks on your character for 3,000 per second (made up number) after all your mitigation is figured in. If you have 310 lps coming in then in reality you are only taking 2,790 damage per second which is a reduction of 10.3%. If you throw on a few more pieces of regen gear and get up to say 700 life per second you reduce that incoming damage to to 2,300 which is a reduction of 23%. To get that kind of mitigation via resist/armor is going be basically impossible if you already have decent gear.
I'm not trying to argue that Dodge isn't better because it is. If you are having trouble staying alive then Mantra of Evasion is hands down the better choice. If you are solo and can stay alive then you should be running Mantra of Conviction for the massive damage bonus. However in a scenario where there are two geared monks and you are looking to maximize your killing speed then Conviction + Healing is going to allow you do to more damage and play more aggressive.
Sorry if I didn't make this clear, I typically run with another monk so I'm always looking at things from a two mantra perspective which probably isn't common for most people. I'll stop derailing the thread.
Can we get a mod in here to stop this forum from turning into trade chat?
@skuzzzy
You do realize that an item is only worth what people are willing to pay, and a big factor in determining what people are willing to pay is the current AH price for gear that has similar stats to what you are selling. Thus even if someone says "hey that stuff is worth 20 million" you are not going to get 20 million for it if the AH is flooded with similar items for 1 million buyout. So here's what you do: You go on the AH and you look for your item via the filters and you see what other people are listing the gear for. It's pretty silly to come here and expect people to do that work for you so you can make gold.
Spoiler alert: Your suggested prices are "slightly" over what the AH is offering.
Maybe your shield isn't as good as you think it is and people aren't going to get excited over average rolls on a 4 prop shield? The only good roll on that shield is the 19% base block (20% is perfect). 74 resist all actually works against the shield from a buyers perspective because you will try and demand a premium for it when in reality a smart monk will look for a worse resist all roll + random resist and end up with the same, or better, resistances (via One with Everything) and save a ton of gold.
Topics like this explain why you see slightly above average gear on the AH for 15 million gold (and why said item doesn't sell). As other people have already said the bracers are good, but not on the level that I would expect someone to come post on the monk forums...
Mantra of Evasion is far superior to Mantra of Healing in terms of mitigation.
It's true that Time of Need usually comes on top of Hard target, but the dodge component of MoE is so much better than 300lps (which you can get from a single gear piece), that whatever small benefit you get by using ToN over hard target gets dwarfed. Not saying lps is a bad stat by itself, contrary to popular belief, and as above poster mentioned, it's quite good actually, and a budgetary alternative to (or supplemtary to) loh in some situations.
Dodge isn't a mitigation stat that you are supposed to "rely" upon. I've seen far too many posts saying that it's an RNG stat, which is pure BS unless you are built like a glass cannon, in which case I agree; dodge isn't going to do anything for you. The way dodge should be thought of is as supplementary mitigation that works best when it sits upon an already comfortable damage reduction (especially when paired with a good block% shield); further reducing incoming damage thus making heals more effective, which brings me to my next point.
Pre-patch when everything hit a lot harder I would agree with you about the extra dodge because it is superior, but since the patch the things that feel the most annoying (to me at least) are unable to be avoided. Arcane beams, plague pools, molten and descration cannot be dodged and ToN gives you more bang for the buck in that regard. Also people seem to completely forget that you get a ~900 hp absorb everytime you activate the mantra. I'm not saying that 310 lps and a ~900 hp shield beats out the dodge from MoE for over-all mitigation, obviously it does not. However when compared against things that cannot be dodged in the first place then ToN wins by default.
Edit:
I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say these skills are annoying. Arcane beams, plague pools, molten, and desecration all force you to reposition your character which means a loss in dps. Post patch nothing feels super threatening anymore so rather that stack more mitigation I'm looking for ways to kill things quicker. When solo I wouldn't bother to run Evasion or Healing because if you can survive with MoC-Overawe you will kill things A LOT faster. When I'm grouped with another monk I prefer the ToN + Overawe combo because with the extra resists you are able to stand in things longer dpsing, and do less kiting/repositioning, which means mobs die faster.
MoE-Hard Target is hands down better mitigation that MoH, but if you can live without them (very doable post patch with decent gear) then there really isn't a point to either.
FoT teleporting can be quite annoying vs some champion affixes and thats why running it with DR is a life saver, and as a bonus you get an 18% damage buff via Foresight that is pretty easy to keep up. Also the FoT teleport can save you in certain situations because it will still teleport you while "jailed"; the debuff remains on you and you'll stay rooted but you will move via the teleport (I've tested this repeatedly). This is clutch if you are stuck and a champion drops a descrate under you or an arcane beam next to you and Serenity is on cooldown.
@Applemask
The reason people take the 1 extra second on Serenity vs the heal is because as long as you have decent LoH you will be at full life by the time it ends regardless of the heal. Thus if you are going to be topped off either way you might as well take the extra second. If your LoH is low then the heal is definately a viable (and possibly a better) choice.
Great guide! I read your initial thread on the EU boards and the idea to combo FoT with DR to handle bad champion affixes completely changed how my monk played in a3/a4. However I disagree with your choice of Mantras: 10 armor = 1 resist and both Hard Target and Time of Need give 20% to armor/resist. Thus at 5,000 armor and 500 resists they give equal amounts of mitigation, but it's much easier to push your resists to 800-900 than it is to get your armor to 8-9,0000. The only way to get your armor up that high is to use Keen Eye, but given the damage nerf to mobs I think that's a poor choice unless you are very undergeared.
Mantra of Healing also gives 310 life per second, something that you scoffed at but I think you are vastly underestimating life per second. You are right that 310 lps isn't going to do much, but then again neither is 310 LoH. The idea is to stack it up a point where you do notice a difference. With a little bit of luck/patience/AH scouting I was able to find gear that contained dex/vit/my resist/resist all/lps and I currently have 1000 lps (1310 with mantra) and the difference is very noticable. LoH is great, but the catch is you actually have to be hitting things to regen which isn't always possible. Obviously I'm not asserting that LoH isn't as good as lps, I have both and LoH definately accounts for more of my healing. However LoH is extremely expensive and to get any higher (my weapon has 753 LoH) I would have to spend at least 30 million to increase my sustain. I was able to swap in life per second regen on most of my gear, for very little to no stat loss, for much much less gold and the difference was dramatic.
Act 1 inferno is not a great place to be testing builds because the difference between a1 and a2 is massive (as is the jump from a2 to a3). For example I was able to make a melee wizard build that could clear all champion packs in a1, and face tank the butcher with no issues. Act 2 is the real proving grounds for if a build is going to be viable or not: my melee wizard build met a horrible death on the first few trash packs of a2; I struggled to the first champion pack before getting stomped into the ground. Recently I've read of some people being successful with a melee wizard in later acts, but their gear is so ridiculously good that I wouldn't say the build is viable for 99% of the playerbase.
Your build will not be viable at all in a2 and beyond. The reason being is personal experience, my monk is getting steamrolled in a3 and I tried a dodge centric build and it fell flat on its face. Sure rng can work in your favor and you'll seem invunerable for short spurts, but it only takes a few bad dice rolls and you'll get destroyed without the proper armor/resists, and consistiant midigation skills/passives that you are ignoring.
I'm hoping the reduction in mob damage that is supposed to happen in 1.0.3 will open up a lot more melee builds, but right now you need to be stacking midigation because the mobs hit so damn past a1.
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I said he needed some sort of sustain to stay alive. You said I was wrong and listed your stats which include 600 LoH and 750 lps regen. That's a decent amount of sustain and that's exactly what I said the OP needs to be successful.
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My guess is that when they buff legendaries they will nerf the set bonus. You won't be able to mix/match the old and new sets and then you'll be torn between a reduced set bonus vs a large increase in stats. This way they don't screw over the people that dropped a lot of gold on the old set, but as long as they don't nerf the 4pc into the ground the new set will still have value.
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I don't get why everyone thinks 310 lps is garbage. Here's how I look at it (and I could be wrong). Dodge is the superior mitigation choice because a dodged hit is no damage. However this isn't an mmo and your job isn't just to tank damage, being able to have more uptime on your target (especially if that target is molten/plague) is also something you need to consider because a dead mob deals no dps. If you have enough gear that staying alive is not longer the issue and you want to increase your time on target then there is something to be said about regen mechanics that people are overlooking. Here's an example to explain my logic:
Let's say plague ticks on your character for 3,000 per second (made up number) after all your mitigation is figured in. If you have 310 lps coming in then in reality you are only taking 2,790 damage per second which is a reduction of 10.3%. If you throw on a few more pieces of regen gear and get up to say 700 life per second you reduce that incoming damage to to 2,300 which is a reduction of 23%. To get that kind of mitigation via resist/armor is going be basically impossible if you already have decent gear.
I'm not trying to argue that Dodge isn't better because it is. If you are having trouble staying alive then Mantra of Evasion is hands down the better choice. If you are solo and can stay alive then you should be running Mantra of Conviction for the massive damage bonus. However in a scenario where there are two geared monks and you are looking to maximize your killing speed then Conviction + Healing is going to allow you do to more damage and play more aggressive.
Sorry if I didn't make this clear, I typically run with another monk so I'm always looking at things from a two mantra perspective which probably isn't common for most people. I'll stop derailing the thread.
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@skuzzzy
You do realize that an item is only worth what people are willing to pay, and a big factor in determining what people are willing to pay is the current AH price for gear that has similar stats to what you are selling. Thus even if someone says "hey that stuff is worth 20 million" you are not going to get 20 million for it if the AH is flooded with similar items for 1 million buyout. So here's what you do: You go on the AH and you look for your item via the filters and you see what other people are listing the gear for. It's pretty silly to come here and expect people to do that work for you so you can make gold.
Spoiler alert: Your suggested prices are "slightly" over what the AH is offering.
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Maybe your shield isn't as good as you think it is and people aren't going to get excited over average rolls on a 4 prop shield? The only good roll on that shield is the 19% base block (20% is perfect). 74 resist all actually works against the shield from a buyers perspective because you will try and demand a premium for it when in reality a smart monk will look for a worse resist all roll + random resist and end up with the same, or better, resistances (via One with Everything) and save a ton of gold.
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Pre-patch when everything hit a lot harder I would agree with you about the extra dodge because it is superior, but since the patch the things that feel the most annoying (to me at least) are unable to be avoided. Arcane beams, plague pools, molten and descration cannot be dodged and ToN gives you more bang for the buck in that regard. Also people seem to completely forget that you get a ~900 hp absorb everytime you activate the mantra. I'm not saying that 310 lps and a ~900 hp shield beats out the dodge from MoE for over-all mitigation, obviously it does not. However when compared against things that cannot be dodged in the first place then ToN wins by default.
Edit:
I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say these skills are annoying. Arcane beams, plague pools, molten, and desecration all force you to reposition your character which means a loss in dps. Post patch nothing feels super threatening anymore so rather that stack more mitigation I'm looking for ways to kill things quicker. When solo I wouldn't bother to run Evasion or Healing because if you can survive with MoC-Overawe you will kill things A LOT faster. When I'm grouped with another monk I prefer the ToN + Overawe combo because with the extra resists you are able to stand in things longer dpsing, and do less kiting/repositioning, which means mobs die faster.
MoE-Hard Target is hands down better mitigation that MoH, but if you can live without them (very doable post patch with decent gear) then there really isn't a point to either.
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@Applemask
The reason people take the 1 extra second on Serenity vs the heal is because as long as you have decent LoH you will be at full life by the time it ends regardless of the heal. Thus if you are going to be topped off either way you might as well take the extra second. If your LoH is low then the heal is definately a viable (and possibly a better) choice.
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Mantra of Healing also gives 310 life per second, something that you scoffed at but I think you are vastly underestimating life per second. You are right that 310 lps isn't going to do much, but then again neither is 310 LoH. The idea is to stack it up a point where you do notice a difference. With a little bit of luck/patience/AH scouting I was able to find gear that contained dex/vit/my resist/resist all/lps and I currently have 1000 lps (1310 with mantra) and the difference is very noticable. LoH is great, but the catch is you actually have to be hitting things to regen which isn't always possible. Obviously I'm not asserting that LoH isn't as good as lps, I have both and LoH definately accounts for more of my healing. However LoH is extremely expensive and to get any higher (my weapon has 753 LoH) I would have to spend at least 30 million to increase my sustain. I was able to swap in life per second regen on most of my gear, for very little to no stat loss, for much much less gold and the difference was dramatic.
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qft, just look at the name he picked. The guy has to be laughing his ass off at the number of replies he's getting.
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Your build will not be viable at all in a2 and beyond. The reason being is personal experience, my monk is getting steamrolled in a3 and I tried a dodge centric build and it fell flat on its face. Sure rng can work in your favor and you'll seem invunerable for short spurts, but it only takes a few bad dice rolls and you'll get destroyed without the proper armor/resists, and consistiant midigation skills/passives that you are ignoring.
I'm hoping the reduction in mob damage that is supposed to happen in 1.0.3 will open up a lot more melee builds, but right now you need to be stacking midigation because the mobs hit so damn past a1.