DiabloFans

UPDATE2: Apparently, paragon starts scaling exponentially again - after level 2250. Updated chart at the bottom of this post. However, paragon 750 to 2250 are still unchanged and relatively easy to get, and provide a ridiculous benefit; and even beyond it's not super crazy scaling, though much more difficult than on PTR and pre-2.3. Despite this small bandaid fix to insanely high paragon levels, all the issues (and potential solutions) of this thread are still valid.

UPDATE: Some of the issues in this thread have been addressed as paragon continues to scale linearly after 2000. Nevertheless, paragon is still an issue and, depending on how long season 4 will last, will be an even larger issue as it was in season 3 due to the fact that XP gain will even be more inflated. The core issues are still relevant, and the solutions proposed should still work. Note that CAPPING paragon is not really a solution - better would be to either 1) let it continue to scale exponentially after 750 (best solution), or 2) remove XP gear (it's the same as MF gear in D3V), or 3) lower the benefits paragon gives after level 800 (probably the best overall and feasible solution as it also works retroactively on non-season).

Yay, catchy title! Sorry for the buzzfeed style, but at least I got your attention now. I previously made a thread about my concerns regarding paragon. There was also a nice thread on Reddit by Xabster highlighting an issue with paragon scaling. However, since yesterday we have new data as Kalmah raced to paragon 10000 on PTR using the GR glitch (live on Empyrian's stream). As it turned out, that changed the game once again - because the paragon XP charts we used so far (including Xabster in his post) were off. After reaching paragon 2000, every level requires exactly the same amount of XP - approx. 170 billion. Yep - paragon level 2000 to 2001 takes exactly as much XP as 9999 to 10000.

Edit: If you don't like to read text but prefer videos, watch Empyrian's great summary of the paragon issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llPluMsxE7M

Now, in all those paragon threads many people said "I don't care". If that's the case, and you don't like numbers or charts then just stop reading and don't bother replying, there will be nothing in here for you. Otherwise, hear me out and read on.

This is a chart displaying the race from paragon 1 to 750, how much XP you need for the next level. This is what most people are probably experiencing, or have experienced - in all Diablo games ever: as you acquire more power, acquiring *even more* power becomes more difficult. In one word, power creep is exponential. As it has always been, and as it should be. Now... after 750 this is not the case anymore. This is what it looks like once you reach paragon 750:

The amount of XP needed to reach the next level increases only linearly - by exactly 122.4 million per level. On this level you acquire several billions of XP per hour though - in 2.3 there might be scenarios of 200-250 billion per hour in a fast group - which makes this a minuscule increase. It's not like in D2 where the next level *feels* like it's going to take longer; instead of an hour it will only take an hour and a few seconds more (not even a few minutes), so not noticeable at all. That's the reason why paragon leveling at this point has become so rewarding: after 750 you make steady progress without a noticeable slowing down effect. However, after paragon 800 every level gives you 5 more main stat - which is a noticeable increase in power and something that you can't get easily through gear upgrades on that level. That's why people are hunting paragon like crazy. And the first few have reached 2000 already. That number will increase in season 4 when paragon farming becomes even easier (shared XP, power creep will let us farm 10-15 level higher). In non-season, where half the playerbase (including me) has found its home, it's going to be even worse: from the start we will have several 2000+ paragon players, and many many more just after a few weeks. Now, why is paragon 2000 such an interesting number? The answer can be found in this chart:

After level 2000, the paragon needed does not increase - as aforementioned. It will always be 170 billion. Now, why is this an issue? Simply because you will *increase your power* - more paragon, maybe occasionally even more gear, more DPS/toughness which allows for even more XP, higher GR clears which result in higher gem ranks. Paragon leveling will be faster and faster - but the paragon XP required will be the same. When you're paragon 2000, you need probably a bit more than one hour to get one level. When you're paragon 3000, you will have 5000 more main stat (!!!), which means 5000% more damage - granted, it's additive damage; but it will still make you much much stronger and let you farm faster. What that means: the higher paragon you are, the more powerful you are, and the more paragon you will acquire. "Paragon per time" (or "power per time) will not be an exponential curve anymore in Diablo - as it has always been - but it will be a bell curve. Once you're at paragon 2000, you are definitely on the lowering right slope of the bell curve, and you will acquire more power as you go on, and you will not slow down but actually get faster in acquiring this increased power.

I hope some more people start to understand now why there's something wrong with paragon. There are several issues - and relatively "easy fixes", though they might hurt. Note, I am not crying for nerfs or anything - I am almost 1000 myself, so I can see the "benefits of the bell curve" for me as well soon. But I just don't think that running low-level Greater Rifts non-stop every day is the best that this game can offer. Here are my main issues with the paragon system and how I believe it can be fixed:

Problem 1: Paragon leveling becomes slower and slower until 750, stays at approximately a steady pace from 750 to 2000, and becomes even faster after that.

Solution: It should continue to be exponential after 750, and especially after 2000. It cannot be that the power creep is even exacerbated by a bell curve - that simply has to be a design flaw. It doesn't necessarily need to be as crazy exponential as before 750, but as players gain more power it should be harder to get *even more* power.

Problem 2: Paragon levels after 800 are more rewarding than any before.

Solution: After paragon 800, each additional level should only grant 2 main stat (instead of 5). After paragon 1000 - up until 10000 - each additional level should only grant 1 main stat. That would still mean a paragon 1000 player has 400 more main stat than a paragon 800 player, and a paragon 2000 player has 800 more. On this level, those differences matter - especially in season 4/era 4, where top-level players will all have very similar gear thanks to the cube. But at least with a bit of skillful play and luck in GR RNG you can make up for it, and aren't straight out of the competition.

Alternative solution by Skelos_bg: "Cap the bonus from stats at P800. Turn the points after P800 in a currency: With this currency the dedicated players who reach P1k, P1.5k, P2k etc can buy special cosmetic rewards, more stash space etc..."

I love this idea - I would kill for stash space. The option to have one more stash tab every 200 or 500 or 1000 levels or whatever would just sound amazing and, although I dislike paragon leveling, would have me leveling like a mad man. Plus, it wouldn't break the game for anyone else if I'm paragon 5000, but at least I don't have to re-farm all gear when I want to experiment new builds. Thanks!

Problem 3: Greater Rifts, especially low GRs for speed runs in 2-4 minutes, are too rewarding and pigeonhole competitive players into a very specific, tedious, time-consuming, and (in many people's opinion) boring gameplay.

Solution: Make XP gained similar in all aspects of the game. This low GR speed madness only started after the XP was changed to be multiplicative in GRs. I guess this was done because T6 was more effective for XP than GRs (I don't really remember, but I think that was the case), and it gave people a gearing choice (Hellfire Ring or Stone of Jordan? Diamond or Ruby?). However, this means that you want to run GRs only (as it currently yields about 10 times more XP!), and you want to run approximately 20-25 levels below your "real power level", as you can afford to give up DPS for XP gear on at least some characters in the group and run this at an insane speed which yields the best XP/hour. Basically, if this game's rules would apply to football, it would mean that Champions League players would have to practice 10-16 hours a day against mediocre low-league teams to become the best players. I'm not sure that would be fun for either side. The concrete solutions here would be to reverse the multiplicative bonus XP change - or even better, get rid of XP bonuses on gear (just like you did the absolutely right decision by basically removing magic find).

Thanks for reading everyone. If you want to see the complete 1-10000 XP plot, here it is:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MIVWYG18yayYU52xFPIH2iT-N_Yap3_UoQh_ZSHndlY/

(Last change in 2.3, accurate as of October 2016 (2.4.2/S8), thanks to <ZE> Vajet for data and Diablo3Ladder.com for publishing them)

I will lock this because this thread is zero constructive. Just two comments:

1) The PTR has been online for just a few days. Can you please stop assuming this is what 2.3 will look like on live? At some point during the last PTR a group of 4 barbs was clearing 70+ with ease, on live currently barbs aren't even used for GR60+. Stop assuming what you see on PTR is what you'll see on live.

2) If you have concerns about the balance of classes in the upcoming patch voice this POLITELY (i.e., watch your language) and CONSTRUCTIVE (i.e., say what can be changed and do not just threaten with "i F'n quit. fu .bliz"), and do so in the respective place where Blizzard asks for feedback - on the official forums.

It is called PTR, and the T stands for "testing". It's not a place to show you an instance of development that will resemble the final state of upcoming features and asks you to make a decision on what you're going to play (or not) in September. If you can't deal with what "testing" means, then please ignore the PTR and wait until 2.3 goes live.

Thanks.