UPDATE2: Apparently, paragon starts scaling exponentially again - after level 2250. Updated chart at the bottom of this post. However, paragon 750 to 2250 are still unchanged and relatively easy to get, and provide a ridiculous benefit; and even beyond it's not super crazy scaling, though much more difficult than on PTR and pre-2.3. Despite this small bandaid fix to insanely high paragon levels, all the issues (and potential solutions) of this thread are still valid.
UPDATE: Some of the issues in this thread have been addressed as paragon continues to scale linearly after 2000. Nevertheless, paragon is still an issue and, depending on how long season 4 will last, will be an even larger issue as it was in season 3 due to the fact that XP gain will even be more inflated. The core issues are still relevant, and the solutions proposed should still work. Note that CAPPING paragon is not really a solution - better would be to either 1) let it continue to scale exponentially after 750 (best solution), or 2) remove XP gear (it's the same as MF gear in D3V), or 3) lower the benefits paragon gives after level 800 (probably the best overall and feasible solution as it also works retroactively on non-season).
Yay, catchy title! Sorry for the buzzfeed style, but at least I got your attention now. I previously made a thread about my concerns regarding paragon. There was also a nice thread on Reddit by Xabster highlighting an issue with paragon scaling. However, since yesterday we have new data as Kalmah raced to paragon 10000 on PTR using the GR glitch (live on Empyrian's stream). As it turned out, that changed the game once again - because the paragon XP charts we used so far (including Xabster in his post) were off. After reaching paragon 2000, every level requires exactly the same amount of XP - approx. 170 billion. Yep - paragon level 2000 to 2001 takes exactly as much XP as 9999 to 10000.
Edit: If you don't like to read text but prefer videos, watch Empyrian's great summary of the paragon issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llPluMsxE7M
Now, in all those paragon threads many people said "I don't care". If that's the case, and you don't like numbers or charts then just stop reading and don't bother replying, there will be nothing in here for you. Otherwise, hear me out and read on.
This is a chart displaying the race from paragon 1 to 750, how much XP you need for the next level. This is what most people are probably experiencing, or have experienced - in all Diablo games ever: as you acquire more power, acquiring *even more* power becomes more difficult. In one word, power creep is exponential. As it has always been, and as it should be. Now... after 750 this is not the case anymore. This is what it looks like once you reach paragon 750:
The amount of XP needed to reach the next level increases only linearly - by exactly 122.4 million per level. On this level you acquire several billions of XP per hour though - in 2.3 there might be scenarios of 200-250 billion per hour in a fast group - which makes this a minuscule increase. It's not like in D2 where the next level *feels* like it's going to take longer; instead of an hour it will only take an hour and a few seconds more (not even a few minutes), so not noticeable at all. That's the reason why paragon leveling at this point has become so rewarding: after 750 you make steady progress without a noticeable slowing down effect. However, after paragon 800 every level gives you 5 more main stat - which is a noticeable increase in power and something that you can't get easily through gear upgrades on that level. That's why people are hunting paragon like crazy. And the first few have reached 2000 already. That number will increase in season 4 when paragon farming becomes even easier (shared XP, power creep will let us farm 10-15 level higher). In non-season, where half the playerbase (including me) has found its home, it's going to be even worse: from the start we will have several 2000+ paragon players, and many many more just after a few weeks. Now, why is paragon 2000 such an interesting number? The answer can be found in this chart:
After level 2000, the paragon needed does not increase - as aforementioned. It will always be 170 billion. Now, why is this an issue? Simply because you will *increase your power* - more paragon, maybe occasionally even more gear, more DPS/toughness which allows for even more XP, higher GR clears which result in higher gem ranks. Paragon leveling will be faster and faster - but the paragon XP required will be the same. When you're paragon 2000, you need probably a bit more than one hour to get one level. When you're paragon 3000, you will have 5000 more main stat (!!!), which means 5000% more damage - granted, it's additive damage; but it will still make you much much stronger and let you farm faster. What that means: the higher paragon you are, the more powerful you are, and the more paragon you will acquire. "Paragon per time" (or "power per time) will not be an exponential curve anymore in Diablo - as it has always been - but it will be a bell curve. Once you're at paragon 2000, you are definitely on the lowering right slope of the bell curve, and you will acquire more power as you go on, and you will not slow down but actually get faster in acquiring this increased power.
I hope some more people start to understand now why there's something wrong with paragon. There are several issues - and relatively "easy fixes", though they might hurt. Note, I am not crying for nerfs or anything - I am almost 1000 myself, so I can see the "benefits of the bell curve" for me as well soon. But I just don't think that running low-level Greater Rifts non-stop every day is the best that this game can offer. Here are my main issues with the paragon system and how I believe it can be fixed:
Problem 1: Paragon leveling becomes slower and slower until 750, stays at approximately a steady pace from 750 to 2000, and becomes even faster after that.
Solution: It should continue to be exponential after 750, and especially after 2000. It cannot be that the power creep is even exacerbated by a bell curve - that simply has to be a design flaw. It doesn't necessarily need to be as crazy exponential as before 750, but as players gain more power it should be harder to get *even more* power.
Problem 2: Paragon levels after 800 are more rewarding than any before.
Solution: After paragon 800, each additional level should only grant 2 main stat (instead of 5). After paragon 1000 - up until 10000 - each additional level should only grant 1 main stat. That would still mean a paragon 1000 player has 400 more main stat than a paragon 800 player, and a paragon 2000 player has 800 more. On this level, those differences matter - especially in season 4/era 4, where top-level players will all have very similar gear thanks to the cube. But at least with a bit of skillful play and luck in GR RNG you can make up for it, and aren't straight out of the competition.
Alternative solution by Skelos_bg: "Cap the bonus from stats at P800. Turn the points after P800 in a currency: With this currency the dedicated players who reach P1k, P1.5k, P2k etc can buy special cosmetic rewards, more stash space etc..."
I love this idea - I would kill for stash space. The option to have one more stash tab every 200 or 500 or 1000 levels or whatever would just sound amazing and, although I dislike paragon leveling, would have me leveling like a mad man. Plus, it wouldn't break the game for anyone else if I'm paragon 5000, but at least I don't have to re-farm all gear when I want to experiment new builds. Thanks!
Problem 3: Greater Rifts, especially low GRs for speed runs in 2-4 minutes, are too rewarding and pigeonhole competitive players into a very specific, tedious, time-consuming, and (in many people's opinion) boring gameplay.
Solution: Make XP gained similar in all aspects of the game. This low GR speed madness only started after the XP was changed to be multiplicative in GRs. I guess this was done because T6 was more effective for XP than GRs (I don't really remember, but I think that was the case), and it gave people a gearing choice (Hellfire Ring or Stone of Jordan? Diamond or Ruby?). However, this means that you want to run GRs only (as it currently yields about 10 times more XP!), and you want to run approximately 20-25 levels below your "real power level", as you can afford to give up DPS for XP gear on at least some characters in the group and run this at an insane speed which yields the best XP/hour. Basically, if this game's rules would apply to football, it would mean that Champions League players would have to practice 10-16 hours a day against mediocre low-league teams to become the best players. I'm not sure that would be fun for either side. The concrete solutions here would be to reverse the multiplicative bonus XP change - or even better, get rid of XP bonuses on gear (just like you did the absolutely right decision by basically removing magic find).
Thanks for reading everyone. If you want to see the complete 1-10000 XP plot, here it is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MIVWYG18yayYU52xFPIH2iT-N_Yap3_UoQh_ZSHndlY/
(Last change in 2.3, accurate as of October 2016 (2.4.2/S8), thanks to <ZE> Vajet for data and Diablo3Ladder.com for publishing them)
Gotta try that ^^
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Thanks for the info, Bagstone.
This is getting out of hand. The power difference of a P1000 and a P600 today is already bad enough, and the grinding is boring enough to make a lot of people quit or bot.
Blizzard should address this, or the environment for competitive players will become toxic (if it's not toxic already) soon enough.
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A week ago me and a friend (DAC#1815) did a small XP ladder for D3, where you can add your char and compare how much XP you have in the moment along other players.
That's purely e-peen and ladder, and serves only to track XP, nothing more. For gear, builds, and items we already have D3UP, D3Rawr and Dprog, and that's not what's our site is about.
So, please feel free to add your battle tags if you like and let me know about any suggestions / bugs.
http://www.diablo3xp.com
The site looks only to your character level and your paragon level, as there's no clear way to track your characters XP between paragon levels.
And you must update it manually if you want to keep the graphs up-to-date.
Here's an example of the ladder, updated just now (2013-Oct-25):
Here's an example of my profile, updated today (2013-Oct-25):
That's a small/shrunk version for the post, you can check the original here: http://diablo3xp.com...us/machado-1633
Thanks and enjoy!
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Console will not be "grind forever" like PC for me. It's a different experience, much more casual than the PC version, much less "serious".
I get both Zero and Ruksak arguments. But, in the end of the day, this is just a game. A nice one, and one that we invest part of our lifes on it, but it's just a game. If you don't agree with Blizzard, vote with your wallet, and don't buy the game.
But local coop with my friends on the couch, without the endless paragon/item grinding that the PC version requires should be a different experience. At least that's what I'm betting right now. I may lose the bet, but, if I do, I can resell the game without great harm done. No-DRM-always-online has this advantage.
And loot 1.5 makes sense on a console point-of-view. I'm thinking that Blizzard is using console version to lure more players to the PC platform, where the biggest revenue should be. [citation needed - I don't have the numbers. :)]
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http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Melisandre-2747/hero/3943460
http://d3up.com/b/507995
Wiz, with enough DPS, MagiWeapon / Blood Magic is enough. I particularly am fond of the "one bigger upgrade" rather several small ones, unless the small ones are really cheap (1~2 mil).
All of your gear can have changes. Your build is good, but your gear does not help your build. For instance: Shock Pulse + Living Lighting is very effective with high attack speed and critical chance. You have a fairly good amount of critical chance (on the 40ish), but lacks attack speed.
Your Tyrael Might lacks "Damage to Demons". That's what you should look on those plate.
Your Andariels Visage takes much fire damage (more than 10%).
With your current gear, I'd stay on MP1, and would not think of buying a Buriza right now. A Buriza would help you more on higher MP's, on lower MP with 150k DPS you can blast through everyone without the need to freeze them.
For Archon you want to stock Int, Critical Chance, Critical Damage. On higher-end gear, you'll need to stock attack speed also, to help you eliminate archon's cooldown.
Take a look at my wizard: The plate, chest and boots were inexpensive (I bought them for less than 10mil all, on US servers), and they helped my EHP a lot. Than you can focus your other gear on DPS.
My 2 cents. Jaetch, Loroese and Bagstone are better on advice then me.
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It's because they like this:
(runs away really fast...)
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I actually don't like to move a lot with my DH, mainly because I still feel that the Manticore is slow, even with 50% more attack speed. I like to tank.
So, on MP7~10 I (usually) stay where I am, pop all my damage reduction stuff ([Shadow Power: Gloom] + [Sentry: Guardian Turret]) granting me 50% more damage reduction and start spamming Bola Shot with Stun.
Obviously I do have to move sometimes, if an elite has some nasty affixes, like arcane (all arcanes end up below me, so I have to run).
Molten / Dessecrators are bad, but if I'm hitting and damaging the monsters than I'm getting my life back.
The real problems are arcane (and their freaking lasers) and poison. They seem to stack somehow and I can't stand on the poison spots more than 2 or 3 seconds.
Anyway, on the topic: I do have more fun with the DH than the CMWW or Archon Wiz. The resource management, the tanking and moving habilities and the looks (she is beautiful to see) are great.
If i'm tired, and just want to faceroll all the monsters, I low the MP to 0 or 1, and it's a no-brainer. Even when I only had 100K DPS.
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If (and this is a BIG if) you are aiming at the CM+WW build, please take Loroese's advice (and http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4Ud6NiYUy7c
Thanks! I've leeched this forum so hard on the last months, that I feel I can contribute a little now.
Yep, from Rio de Janeiro!
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At least 200 damage, 150+ INT, 100+VIT. That alone would giv you a ton of DPS.
I ran some simulations for you on D3UP ( http://d3up.com/b/360509 ), and even a bad triumvirate would giv you a HUGE boost on DPS and a small boost on EHP.
Stop your reading. Stop what you are doing. Go buy it now. And I mean it, NOW.