Well, one thing that normal PvP games do is create 2 sets of rules: one for PvE, one for PvP. Double balancing is usually too hard and too pointless to do. And if there is a PvP ruleset, stuff like Slow Time is a joke to balance. Which is why discussing imbalances is fruitless. The skill could be nerfed for PvP, or not even be available in PvP.
Also, the bad balancing in WoW is there on purpose. If Blizzard wanted to balance that game, they would, just as they have balanced StarCraft.
And, again, usually balancing gaps are in the numbers.
I have a feeling the 'balance' in PvP is going to be heavily dependent on your gear as usual. Taking the bubble out of the equation for PvP would be unfortunately sad but I can see a slowing penalty of some kind - perhaps just not as effective as it would be versus mobs.
They just want us to have a fun game, we're all looking forward to seeing how the PvP system plays out! We haven't even seen what the other unannounced classes are bringing to the table.
Well, one thing that normal PvP games do is create 2 sets of rules: one for PvE, one for PvP. Double balancing is usually too hard and too pointless to do.
100% right.
Add 1x1 (duel pvp) in the equation and it is not just hard, it's impossible to balance. The only possible option is separate 100% the skill trees (every class have a PVP tree, a PVE solo tree and a PVE group tree) so they can formulate one separate equation for every tree. So it's like every class are 3 separte ones, so creat a balance involve different areas of gameplay is possible (still very hard).
1x1 PvP is really what I'm looking at (everything else is crap in my opinion). I don't think it's that hard to balance without the gear. There are only 5 classes, meaning about 25 matchups? The gear complicates things, but that's a separate matter.
If they balance it 1x1 that's basically all they have to do. It won't be perfect, but it will be manageable.
Well, one thing that normal PvP games do is create 2 sets of rules: one for PvE, one for PvP. Double balancing is usually too hard and too pointless to do. And if there is a PvP ruleset, stuff like Slow Time is a joke to balance. Which is why discussing imbalances is fruitless. The skill could be nerfed for PvP, or not even be available in PvP.
Also, the bad balancing in WoW is there on purpose. If Blizzard wanted to balance that game, they would, just as they have balanced StarCraft.
And, again, usually balancing gaps are in the numbers.
99% agree.....I dont think trying to balance pvp and pve at the same time is pointless...there both important parts of the game.
*wishes people would stop agreeing with her when they don't even really understand what she's saying*
I'm going to re-explain everything:
A game that intends to provide a feasible PvP experience needs to balance PvE and PvP separately. It's faster and it's easier (hence, it will be better). They will both be balanced, just with rules for each, like it was in DII.
*wishes people would stop agreeing with her when they don't even really understand what she's saying*
I'm going to re-explain everything:
A game that intends to provide a feasible PvP experience needs to balance PvE and PvP separately. It's faster and it's easier (hence, it will be better). They will both be balanced, just with rules for each, like it was in DII.
Well next time explain it better in your first post about it!!!!!!!!!!!!
But yeah your right things need to be balanced separately.....god how many times was a PVP nerf in wow made that seriously pissed off that class for the ones who raided and it wasnt OP in PVE at all.....hopefully we dont see that in D3...but w/e its blizz they know what there at
Attempting to balance things as you go is limiting to the creative process. Designers first go all out and create extremely overpowered classes and only worry about balancing later on.
Attempting to balance things as you go is limiting to the creative process. Designers first go all out and create extremely overpowered classes and only worry about balancing later on.
This is true...and makes total sence...I doubt anyone will listen tho
How does faster and easier make something better? Taking steroids makes the person's muscles bigger a lot faster and with a lot less effort, but it makes the muscles worse, and is damaging to the person.
Because this is game development, and that's sports.
Quote from "Illuvatar" »
Balancing the two seperately might be easier, but it won't turn out for the better
You do realize how subjective that is?
Quote from "Illuvatar" »
becuase if you intend to have a set of rules or boundaries limiting the classes in PvP, then the character that people have developed is not the same
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Quote from "Illuvatar" »
and many people will simply not do PvP
Well, in the alternative case, I would not PvP, because PvP will be utter crap (see WoW or DII). PvP needs to be balanced to be good.
Quote from "Illuvatar" »
Say, for example that someone was using the "slow time" spell and got a good tactic for it, and then they went into some PvP and found out that it was disabled or nerfed heavily, I think that the person whose character this is would be very pissed off and possibly won't go into PvP with that character again.
It's called knowing things. I'm sure many people in DII had no clue that putting extra points into curses is totally pointless, and they were also very pissed about it afterwards.
If you don't even know what spells are in and what are not, maybe it's too early for PvP and you need to get to know the game better.
Quote from "Illuvatar" »
Also, if they remove or nerf the skill from one class in PvP, all the other classes will have to have nerfs too, to avoid people thinking that since only that class was nerfed for PvP then it is the best one.
All nerfings and whtaever are there to make the classes balanced. They don't really need to be symmetric. And if people think that some class is the best one, maybe Blizzard needs to learn how to balance things. You play the class for a bit, you'll realize it's not better. It's like saying since somebody nerfed the Zerg queen 4 years ago everyone is going to play Zerg now, that's retarded. After tons upon tons of nerfings and changes in StarCraft, people agree that all 3 races are balanced. If Blizzard does its job well, people will agree that all DIII classes are relatively balanced. And if someone is going to think something stupid for a brief period, that's the factor of human confusion we'll just have to survive, and it will exist regardless of the manner of balancing used.
Also, if they remove or nerf the skill from one class in PvP, all the other classes will have to have nerfs too, to avoid people thinking that since only that class was nerfed for PvP then it is the best one.
ummmm no.....if there nerfing a classes ability or something its to balance shit out....people do not think like this...at least i hope not
It's always been that way though, if you aren't good at playing your class in PvE (IE when this game comes out and you're part of the first wave of players who just rip through to Hell Difficulty) you don't stand a chance at PvP - you'll get trumped by players who have dealt with worse.
The skills for avoiding attacks/dishing out unreal damage come with experience in sticky situations like the encounters we've seen in the videos released so far.
The good guilds, the good players; will all be full of those who pride themselves on dominating the trade market (items, trading them to benefit them and their guild)
For all we know this game even incorporates an enchanting-type system. The guilds with the best player-buffs will blow through the final Difficulty of this game and be rewarded for it.
The majority of the time spent in this game until you reach the level cap will be playing with CLOSE friends (Guildmates) who have the gear and the experience to make the co-op amazingly fun and easy.
How can something be overpowered? The characters are not "fully" developed and neither are their skills. To say something is overpowered at this stage in development is just strange. Wait until the game is out, then we can talk about this issue.
Equinox mentioned how WoW PvP is imbalanced for a purpose. Well, the PvP is based on the idea of each class having a counter-class of sorts, or, the paper-rock-scissors system. That is because proper WoW PvP occurs between 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 players and that is where the game becomes balanced as it can be. In Diablo, I believe the paper-rock-scissors system is out of the question since they need to balance the game for 1v1 as well. That means that all classes need to have pretty much equally powerful slowing and sapping abilities, and abilities that make other players loose control over their character for a limited amount of time. Then all classes will also have countering spells on cooldowns, or abilities that can prevent or prepare you for those.
We know that the Wizard has a simple AoE slowing effect, the Witchdoctor has a fearing ability and the Barbarian has a stunning ability. They all have their tricks. Even those skills that appear in the Barbarian demo have tricks that can easily coutner the time slow bubble. You find yourself in the middle of a bubble, you use Furious Charge, you stun the Wizard, giving you a couple of blows to charge up your Fury, the rest is hirstory. Another option is to use Enrage as soon as the fight starts. It recharges your Fury at a rate of 100%, so you can use Leap Attack several times to jump out of the bubbles and force the Wizard to spend a substantial amount of mana. If he stops casting them, use Leap Attack to actually attack and not evade. The Witchdoctor can Terrify the Wizard buying him time to escape the slowing area effect. His pets have physical attacks that I am 100% sure will have a really great chance on attack to interrupt Wizard's beam thing, since it is a channeled spell. As you can see, all the essentials are already there, and they didn't even begin to balance things.
And no, Blizzard didn't balance PvE and PvP separately in WoW. They first and foremost made extremely diverse classes in every possible respect with a huge number of PvE-useful spells and abilities. Then they proceeded to boost them further in order to balance them so that all classes are useful for team PvE content and that they don't outperform each other (ie, that they are all equally useful and that they all have valid roles), and THEN comes the second round of balancing where they tone down the classes by adding PvE-useful abilities that counter, prevent or balance out other spells that would be overpowered in PvP. It is an extremely complicated process but they didn't go the easier way, and do what, for example, WH: Online did - make all classes exactly the same with all the same spells and powers, and only change the names and graphical effects to create an illusion of diversity.
You say you can make a slow time bubble and stab the Barbarian in the neck. In WoW, the Rogue can sneak up your behind while you would never expect it and you can't see it. It then completely saps you in place preventing you to move for two seconds, after which he uses another sapping ability to incapacitate you for another 4 seconds. A Rogue can kill a cloth-wearing class in a couple of blows. Now THAT seems overpowered? Well, it's like that on purpose. And PvP functions perfectly well with it. If Blizzard can balance that, I am pretty sure they can balance a puny movement-slowing AoE effect! After all, neither PvE or PvP can be interesting if they don't give players any interesting abilities. Time slow bubble is like the most basic PvP-useful ability I could imagine a class to have.
To Dimebog
Rock-Paper-Scissors is lame lazy balancing and for me it's automatic crap and I don't really understand any purpose in such a system besides laziness. It eliminates the 1v1 duel which is the only important PvP matchup out there anyway.
Yet, rogues are overpowered and have been overpowered for ages and Blizzard did nothing about it.
To Illuvatar
Go play Nox please.
Quote from "Sodalas" »
It's always been that way though, if you aren't good at playing your class in PvE (IE when this game comes out and you're part of the first wave of players who just rip through to Hell Difficulty) you don't stand a chance at PvP - you'll get trumped by players who have dealt with worse.
PvE and PvP are not related. Killing monsters is one thing, killing players is another. They will correlate (it's the same game) but that's about it. Not sure what you're trying to say here.
I don't get the problem. PvP was always very strange in DII to begin with because of items. You still need PvP specific chars, and PvP is still end-game, and PvP has its own rules (just because skills are not nerfed or removed doesn't mean every single skill is going to be useful anyway).
Quote from "Sodalas" »
The skills for avoiding attacks/dishing out unreal damage come with experience in sticky situations like the encounters we've seen in the videos released so far.
No, not with proper PvP they don't. But we didn't see proper PvP in DII so you got nothing to bring up, really.
Quote from "Sodalas" »
The good guilds, the good players; will all be full of those who pride themselves on dominating the trade market (items, trading them to benefit them and their guild)
That has to do what with PvP? And the rest of your post...
To Dimebog
Rock-Paper-Scissors is lame lazy balancing and for me it's automatic crap and I don't really understand any purpose in such a system besides laziness. It eliminates the 1v1 duel which is the only important PvP matchup out there anyway.
Yet, rogues are overpowered and have been overpowered for ages and Blizzard did nothing about it.
The system exists because the whole world doesn't revolve around PvP. And WoW PvP is not designed for 1v1 either way.
Equinox, before I overstep my speculation-meter here and maybe I do sometimes - we don't know how this is going to pan out when the full game is released.
I think Blizzard has learned something about how to properly implement a PvP system after adjusting the balance in WoW for so long. Maybe the original point was a bit vague for you but advancing your character will always involve a certain level of skill in PvE, so it's a given.
As for that final point, the trading community will always circulate the best items for PvP and PvE - there won't be anything like an arena system for item-rewards as far as we know - thankfully.
The demand on top-tier Hell-Difficulty gear for PvP or PvE will be a massive market. That's the line I'm drawing through PvE and PvP in terms of how they are related.
You have your own view of how Diablo 2 worked which is fine. The game changed by leaps and bounds from patches like 1.03 to 1.08 to post 1.08. Duping used to be wide-spread on Closed Battle.net (Carrion Song and Occulus Rings anybody?) so you can't look to Diablo II's model in terms of how we'll see Diablo III evolve.
PvP Characters and Seperate PvE characters should be a thing of the past if they implement the much-demanded ability to re-allocate your skill points to suit a different environment.
As for "WoW Rogues" the class was never overpowered - the mage and warlock were the "Magic Rock" to the rogues scissors. Frost novas/Ice Blocks/Seduce/Death Coil/Howl of Terror/Fear/Water Elemental
Balance is just that, something that needs to be maintained. We'll see how it plays out. No reason for negativity.
this thread to me is meaningless in my opinion blizzard does a fairly well job in balancing characters. i actually think its a really cool skill it has many applications, and who knows it has the same chance of sucking as it does being OP
this thread to me is meaningless in my opinion blizzard does a fairly well job in balancing characters. i actually think its a really cool skill it has many applications, and who knows it has the same chance of sucking as it does being OP
with that said, rumor has it that the wizard will be able to become super saiyan uppon reaching level 99 and has a whole skill tree including Kamehameha and destructive disks of death. but they might put it off until the expansion: Diablo 3: Myth of the Dragon, apparently focusing on the nation of Xiansai.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
----------------------- "What man, anywhere under Heaven's high arch, has fought in such darkness, endured more misery or been harder pressed?" -Beowulf
Nt sure if mentioned before but I think the wizards beam is overpowered, over colored and too fast.
It should be a bit slower and sortof feel like it's ripping through walls maybe? but yeah just expressing opinion
Nt sure if mentioned before but I think the wizards beam is overpowered, over colored and too fast.
It should be a bit slower and sortof feel like it's ripping through walls maybe? but yeah just expressing opinion
Overpowered? Suuuure. Like you know that already. Overcolored. Okay. That seems relevant enough for this thread. Too fast? Well, you're wrong. It starts dealing damage really slow and then increases linearly the longer you channel it. Bet you didn't know that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I have a feeling the 'balance' in PvP is going to be heavily dependent on your gear as usual. Taking the bubble out of the equation for PvP would be unfortunately sad but I can see a slowing penalty of some kind - perhaps just not as effective as it would be versus mobs.
They just want us to have a fun game, we're all looking forward to seeing how the PvP system plays out! We haven't even seen what the other unannounced classes are bringing to the table.
100% right.
Add 1x1 (duel pvp) in the equation and it is not just hard, it's impossible to balance. The only possible option is separate 100% the skill trees (every class have a PVP tree, a PVE solo tree and a PVE group tree) so they can formulate one separate equation for every tree. So it's like every class are 3 separte ones, so creat a balance involve different areas of gameplay is possible (still very hard).
If they balance it 1x1 that's basically all they have to do. It won't be perfect, but it will be manageable.
99% agree.....I dont think trying to balance pvp and pve at the same time is pointless...there both important parts of the game.
I'm going to re-explain everything:
A game that intends to provide a feasible PvP experience needs to balance PvE and PvP separately. It's faster and it's easier (hence, it will be better). They will both be balanced, just with rules for each, like it was in DII.
Well next time explain it better in your first post about it!!!!!!!!!!!!
But yeah your right things need to be balanced separately.....god how many times was a PVP nerf in wow made that seriously pissed off that class for the ones who raided and it wasnt OP in PVE at all.....hopefully we dont see that in D3...but w/e its blizz they know what there at
This is true...and makes total sence...I doubt anyone will listen tho
You do realize how subjective that is?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Well, in the alternative case, I would not PvP, because PvP will be utter crap (see WoW or DII). PvP needs to be balanced to be good.
It's called knowing things. I'm sure many people in DII had no clue that putting extra points into curses is totally pointless, and they were also very pissed about it afterwards.
If you don't even know what spells are in and what are not, maybe it's too early for PvP and you need to get to know the game better.
All nerfings and whtaever are there to make the classes balanced. They don't really need to be symmetric. And if people think that some class is the best one, maybe Blizzard needs to learn how to balance things. You play the class for a bit, you'll realize it's not better. It's like saying since somebody nerfed the Zerg queen 4 years ago everyone is going to play Zerg now, that's retarded. After tons upon tons of nerfings and changes in StarCraft, people agree that all 3 races are balanced. If Blizzard does its job well, people will agree that all DIII classes are relatively balanced. And if someone is going to think something stupid for a brief period, that's the factor of human confusion we'll just have to survive, and it will exist regardless of the manner of balancing used.
ummmm no.....if there nerfing a classes ability or something its to balance shit out....people do not think like this...at least i hope not
It's always been that way though, if you aren't good at playing your class in PvE (IE when this game comes out and you're part of the first wave of players who just rip through to Hell Difficulty) you don't stand a chance at PvP - you'll get trumped by players who have dealt with worse.
The skills for avoiding attacks/dishing out unreal damage come with experience in sticky situations like the encounters we've seen in the videos released so far.
The good guilds, the good players; will all be full of those who pride themselves on dominating the trade market (items, trading them to benefit them and their guild)
For all we know this game even incorporates an enchanting-type system. The guilds with the best player-buffs will blow through the final Difficulty of this game and be rewarded for it.
The majority of the time spent in this game until you reach the level cap will be playing with CLOSE friends (Guildmates) who have the gear and the experience to make the co-op amazingly fun and easy.
I believe we called that Synergy in D2
We know that the Wizard has a simple AoE slowing effect, the Witchdoctor has a fearing ability and the Barbarian has a stunning ability. They all have their tricks. Even those skills that appear in the Barbarian demo have tricks that can easily coutner the time slow bubble. You find yourself in the middle of a bubble, you use Furious Charge, you stun the Wizard, giving you a couple of blows to charge up your Fury, the rest is hirstory. Another option is to use Enrage as soon as the fight starts. It recharges your Fury at a rate of 100%, so you can use Leap Attack several times to jump out of the bubbles and force the Wizard to spend a substantial amount of mana. If he stops casting them, use Leap Attack to actually attack and not evade. The Witchdoctor can Terrify the Wizard buying him time to escape the slowing area effect. His pets have physical attacks that I am 100% sure will have a really great chance on attack to interrupt Wizard's beam thing, since it is a channeled spell. As you can see, all the essentials are already there, and they didn't even begin to balance things.
And no, Blizzard didn't balance PvE and PvP separately in WoW. They first and foremost made extremely diverse classes in every possible respect with a huge number of PvE-useful spells and abilities. Then they proceeded to boost them further in order to balance them so that all classes are useful for team PvE content and that they don't outperform each other (ie, that they are all equally useful and that they all have valid roles), and THEN comes the second round of balancing where they tone down the classes by adding PvE-useful abilities that counter, prevent or balance out other spells that would be overpowered in PvP. It is an extremely complicated process but they didn't go the easier way, and do what, for example, WH: Online did - make all classes exactly the same with all the same spells and powers, and only change the names and graphical effects to create an illusion of diversity.
You say you can make a slow time bubble and stab the Barbarian in the neck. In WoW, the Rogue can sneak up your behind while you would never expect it and you can't see it. It then completely saps you in place preventing you to move for two seconds, after which he uses another sapping ability to incapacitate you for another 4 seconds. A Rogue can kill a cloth-wearing class in a couple of blows. Now THAT seems overpowered? Well, it's like that on purpose. And PvP functions perfectly well with it. If Blizzard can balance that, I am pretty sure they can balance a puny movement-slowing AoE effect! After all, neither PvE or PvP can be interesting if they don't give players any interesting abilities. Time slow bubble is like the most basic PvP-useful ability I could imagine a class to have.
Rock-Paper-Scissors is lame lazy balancing and for me it's automatic crap and I don't really understand any purpose in such a system besides laziness. It eliminates the 1v1 duel which is the only important PvP matchup out there anyway.
Yet, rogues are overpowered and have been overpowered for ages and Blizzard did nothing about it.
To Illuvatar
Go play Nox please.
PvE and PvP are not related. Killing monsters is one thing, killing players is another. They will correlate (it's the same game) but that's about it. Not sure what you're trying to say here.
I don't get the problem. PvP was always very strange in DII to begin with because of items. You still need PvP specific chars, and PvP is still end-game, and PvP has its own rules (just because skills are not nerfed or removed doesn't mean every single skill is going to be useful anyway).
No, not with proper PvP they don't. But we didn't see proper PvP in DII so you got nothing to bring up, really.
That has to do what with PvP? And the rest of your post...
And Rogue is not overpowered.
I think Blizzard has learned something about how to properly implement a PvP system after adjusting the balance in WoW for so long. Maybe the original point was a bit vague for you but advancing your character will always involve a certain level of skill in PvE, so it's a given.
As for that final point, the trading community will always circulate the best items for PvP and PvE - there won't be anything like an arena system for item-rewards as far as we know - thankfully.
The demand on top-tier Hell-Difficulty gear for PvP or PvE will be a massive market. That's the line I'm drawing through PvE and PvP in terms of how they are related.
You have your own view of how Diablo 2 worked which is fine. The game changed by leaps and bounds from patches like 1.03 to 1.08 to post 1.08. Duping used to be wide-spread on Closed Battle.net (Carrion Song and Occulus Rings anybody?) so you can't look to Diablo II's model in terms of how we'll see Diablo III evolve.
PvP Characters and Seperate PvE characters should be a thing of the past if they implement the much-demanded ability to re-allocate your skill points to suit a different environment.
As for "WoW Rogues" the class was never overpowered - the mage and warlock were the "Magic Rock" to the rogues scissors. Frost novas/Ice Blocks/Seduce/Death Coil/Howl of Terror/Fear/Water Elemental
Balance is just that, something that needs to be maintained. We'll see how it plays out. No reason for negativity.
with that said, rumor has it that the wizard will be able to become super saiyan uppon reaching level 99 and has a whole skill tree including Kamehameha and destructive disks of death. but they might put it off until the expansion: Diablo 3: Myth of the Dragon, apparently focusing on the nation of Xiansai.
"What man, anywhere under Heaven's high arch, has fought in such darkness, endured more misery or been harder pressed?"
-Beowulf
It should be a bit slower and sortof feel like it's ripping through walls maybe? but yeah just expressing opinion