The kid beat his 2 year old brother to death, and is being charged with it. He's had a messed up childhood and a history of beating his brother. They're considering life in jail, rehab, and juvenile stuff.
Personally, I think most people try to hard to save people in bad situations. I'm almost positive that the amount of resources it would take to rehabilitate this creature into a normal, productive human being would outweigh the resources given back to society. I'm not typically for the death penalty, but anything else would just be silly. This kid's messed up hard, and will either OD or be dealing in no time at all. This wasn't an accidental death, he's had a history of attacking his brother. This will haunt him for rest of his life. I say we cut his short and call it a mercy, on society and him.
I don't mean to be so cold-hearted, but I really hate the inefficiency in the justice system.
There is a 12 year old boy who shot his parents and killed them. They're talking about trying him as an adult. I think they should. They should do the same with that kid who beat his brother to death. And that's my 2¢.
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I just read the article and it seems the kid needs serious rehabilitation. That is one of the worst situations a kid would be in. He was abused by a man physically, emotionally, and sexually. Then he saw the same man blow his head apart when the police came to arrest him for an incident involving Fernandez. I don't think anybody would be sane after seeing and experiencing that.
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Just as the Scorpion hunts...
Silently Lurking...
"Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted." ~ Ezio Auditore de Firenze
Exactly. He's broken. Society's already failed him and statistics say that he'll fail society, too. The rehab that they would give him should be given to less broken people. He's got all the markings of a beginning serial killer.
A minor should never be tried as an adult. Why? Because they are not adults. Their cognitive skills do not fully develop until late teens. And even then, it's still not fully developed. But teens especially, simply do not have a full understanding of themselves and the world they live in. A side effect often times, is a lack of understanding consequences and permanence. Especially a 12 year old. That would be wrong if they tried him as an adult.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
A minor should never be tried as an adult. Why? Because they are not adults. Their cognitive skills do not fully develop until late teens. And even then, it's still not fully developed. But teens especially, simply do not have a full understanding of themselves and the world they live in. A side effect often times, is a lack of understanding consequences and permanence. Especially a 12 year old. That would be wrong if they tried him as an adult.
Gonna call shennanigans on that shiz.
You think a 12 year old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Have you ever met a 12 year old? Kids learn to lie, cheat, and steal as soon as they can walk and talk, sometimes before. I have been around kids, and worked with and taught kids for the past decade.
They might not be able to smoke, drink, drive or buy lotto tickets legally, but that's not what defines an adult. I've seen plenty of 12 year old's display better reasoning skills than college age kids as well.
Is there something seriously wrong with a 12 year old that shoots someone to death? Yes. Is one of those things "he didn't know it was wrong" or "he didn't know what he was doing?" Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
We're not talking about a normal 12 year old either. We're talking about a neglected emotionally damaged one. I can't in good faith say that he knew the repercussions of what he was doing, or if he even knew it was wrong.
The mom is at fault here in my opinion, she knew he had problems and she let it continue. He broke the 2 year olds leg before. She thought it was okay to leave them alone together? He should have been put into an institution to receive help and treatment then, possibly earlier, not be left alone with his 2 year old brother.
We're not talking about a normal 12 year old either. We're talking about a neglected emotionally damaged one. I can't in good faith say that he knew the repercussions of what he was doing, or if he even knew it was wrong.
The mom is at fault here in my opinion, she knew he had problems and she let it continue. He broke the 2 year olds leg before. She thought it was okay to leave them alone together? He should have been put into an institution to receive help and treatment then, possibly earlier, not be left alone with his 2 year old brother.
There are very few true sociopaths in this world. I have taught kids that went through the same thing. Choice is the defining factor here. You can choose to give up, harm yourself or others, or you can choose to rise above it. But when you choose to harm others, you're taking their choices away from them, and that should carry consequences.
A minor should never be tried as an adult. Why? Because they are not adults. Their cognitive skills do not fully develop until late teens. And even then, it's still not fully developed. But teens especially, simply do not have a full understanding of themselves and the world they live in. A side effect often times, is a lack of understanding consequences and permanence. Especially a 12 year old. That would be wrong if they tried him as an adult.
Gonna call shennanigans on that shiz.You think a 12 year old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Have you ever met a 12 year old? Kids learn to lie, cheat, and steal as soon as they can walk and talk, sometimes before. I have been around kids, and worked with and taught kids for the past decade.They might not be able to smoke, drink, drive or buy lotto tickets legally, but that's not what defines an adult. I've seen plenty of 12 year old's display better reasoning skills than college age kids as well.Is there something seriously wrong with a 12 year old that shoots someone to death? Yes. Is one of those things "he didn't know it was wrong" or "he didn't know what he was doing?" Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
Yeah, we're not talking about knowing "right" and "wrong." Or, at least, Umpa isn't. Humans brains (specifically the parts dealing with long term consequences) do not develop until late teens. There is even some research showing that the male brain does not fully mature until they are in their 20's. As such, the idea is that the individual can not judge the consequences of their action (they might know it is "wrong" to do what they are doing, but they literally are not able to grasp the results of their action on the fly). This is why teenagers (especially males) have a reputation for doing stupid and/or risky things, they simply can not make those decisions the same way a fully matured adult can.
Sure, if you sit them down they can work it out, but for snap judgement, like if you are in the heat of the moment, they just don't do so well.
All that said, I am in favor of "do the crime, do the time." In the perfect world jail would be working towards rehabilitating the inmate, but I don't think that happens too often (not enough money in many cases). I am okay with them getting reduced sentences, but not the massively reduced that typically come with not being tried as an adult.
Btw, my dear friends, I will remind you that "right" and "wrong" are artificial concepts that people need to acquire. It has very little to do with age. A person who was abused will have his own version of "right" and "wrong", which probably has little to do with yours.
And brain maturation has nothing to do with it. I met plenty of young males who were not idiots. It's a parenting issue, nothing else. In fact, this whole talk of male brains lets them get away with too many things. "Boys will be boys" ugh. Ugh. Ugh.
A minor should never be tried as an adult. Why? Because they are not adults. Their cognitive skills do not fully develop until late teens. And even then, it's still not fully developed. But teens especially, simply do not have a full understanding of themselves and the world they live in. A side effect often times, is a lack of understanding consequences and permanence. Especially a 12 year old. That would be wrong if they tried him as an adult.
Gonna call shennanigans on that shiz.You think a 12 year old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Have you ever met a 12 year old? Kids learn to lie, cheat, and steal as soon as they can walk and talk, sometimes before. I have been around kids, and worked with and taught kids for the past decade.They might not be able to smoke, drink, drive or buy lotto tickets legally, but that's not what defines an adult. I've seen plenty of 12 year old's display better reasoning skills than college age kids as well.Is there something seriously wrong with a 12 year old that shoots someone to death? Yes. Is one of those things "he didn't know it was wrong" or "he didn't know what he was doing?" Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
Yeah, we're not talking about knowing "right" and "wrong." Or, at least, Umpa isn't. Humans brains (specifically the parts dealing with long term consequences) do not develop until late teens. There is even some research showing that the male brain does not fully mature until they are in their 20's. As such, the idea is that the individual can not judge the consequences of their action (they might know it is "wrong" to do what they are doing, but they literally are not able to grasp the results of their action on the fly). This is why teenagers (especially males) have a reputation for doing stupid and/or risky things, they simply can not make those decisions the same way a fully matured adult can.
Sure, if you sit them down they can work it out, but for snap judgement, like if you are in the heat of the moment, they just don't do so well.
All that said, I am in favor of "do the crime, do the time." In the perfect world jail would be working towards rehabilitating the inmate, but I don't think that happens too often (not enough money in many cases). I am okay with them getting reduced sentences, but not the massively reduced that typically come with not being tried as an adult.
This. Ty.
Eq- Right and wrong are concepts that are Dependant upon the maturation of the brain. I don't care how many bright young people you have met. The brain takes time to mature, and 12 years is simply not enough to try them as an adult. They do not think like adults. Maybe you are an exception, I have no clue. But I can speak for myself and I certainly didn't think like an adult.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
But a 12 year old boy who goes and gets the gun, then walls into the room where the parents are sleeping then kills them, has planned it out and should be tried as an adult.
Now the other boy, not sure if he got help after his abuse, probably showed signs of violence after all of that happened. Does it justify what he did? "Well, he was a troubled boy who was abused." Doesn't change the fact that he beat a defenseless 2 year old to death. And it doesn't make it something that shouldn't be punishable.
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But a 12 year old boy who goes and gets the gun, then walls into the room where the parents are sleeping then kills them, has planned it out and should be tried as an adult.
Now the other boy, not sure if he got help after his abuse, probably showed signs of violence after all of that happened. Does it justify what he did? "Well, he was a troubled boy who was abused." Doesn't change the fact that he beat a defenseless 2 year old to death. And it doesn't make it something that shouldn't be punishable.
Does that boy who planned it out have the cognitive skills of an adult? A smart 5 year old can kill parents in their sleep the same way. It doesn't mean they understand exactly what they are doing. A 12 year old is not an adult. Nor is their mind developed like an adult. When you were 12 did you think like you do now? Regardless of whether it's fair because he killed someone, it doesn't matter what the crime is. You don't try them as an "adult" because they are not an "adult". We have these distinctions between adult and minor for a reason.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I know when I was 12 I didn't really fully grasp the concept of death. Death just meant someone went away forever. Basically on the same level of moving to another state.
You think a 12 year old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Have you ever met a 12 year old? Kids learn to lie, cheat, and steal as soon as they can walk and talk, sometimes before. I have been around kids, and worked with and taught kids for the past decade.
They might not be able to smoke, drink, drive or buy lotto tickets legally, but that's not what defines an adult. I've seen plenty of 12 year old's display better reasoning skills than college age kids as well.
Is there something seriously wrong with a 12 year old that shoots someone to death? Yes. Is one of those things "he didn't know it was wrong" or "he didn't know what he was doing?" Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
The question wasn't whether he could recognize right or wrong, it was whether he understood how long forever is. At that age, most kids get in trouble for things that effectively go away with a sum of cash to pay for damages. They can't imagine something wrong that lasts forever; someone somewhere will pay the fine for them (and possibly punish them accordingly) and eventually everything goes back to normal, right? Yes, they can reason and they understand right and wrong and the basic principle of 'forever' but they don't really recognize how long that is. The longest time they have ever experienced is just over 10 years, and most of that they can't even remember, so forever is completely inconceivable to them. This, in my opinion, is the reason you can't try kids as an adult. However, what distinctions you make based on this don't have to be as extreme as we normally treat minors when trying them, since I get the impression we reduce a lot of sentences since minors are at an age where they can learn (and therefor rehabilitate) much quicker than an adult, and it would be a greater cost to society to not allow them to have a chance to be productive during their prime years (even if the chance is not the best).
So in summary, we should evaluate why each distinction exists between minor and adult trials and then try them as an adult (or more specifically, remove any restrictions legally mandatory when trying a minor) but with the consideration and mercy due to them based on the distinctions still present between themselves and a mature adult. This lifting of restrictions, however, should be used very sparingly, and only in the most extreme of cases, such as in the case of murder or when a child is unable to mature properly (such as when forced to endure a persistent or exceptionally severe trauma or hardships).
But a 12 year old boy who goes and gets the gun, then walls into the room where the parents are sleeping then kills them, has planned it out and should be tried as an adult.
Now the other boy, not sure if he got help after his abuse, probably showed signs of violence after all of that happened. Does it justify what he did? "Well, he was a troubled boy who was abused." Doesn't change the fact that he beat a defenseless 2 year old to death. And it doesn't make it something that shouldn't be punishable.
Does that boy who planned it out have the cognitive skills of an adult? A smart 5 year old can kill parents in their sleep the same way. It doesn't mean they understand exactly what they are doing. A 12 year old is not an adult. Nor is their mind developed like an adult. When you were 12 did you think like you do now? Regardless of whether it's fair because he killed someone, it doesn't matter what the crime is. You don't try them as an "adult" because they are not an "adult". We have these distinctions between adult and minor for a reason.
Are you equating the cognitive skills of a five year old with that of a 12 year old...? Sure sounded like it. A 12 year old understands death, I'm sorry but they do. A five year old playing with a gun? I might could see that argument. But when a 12 year old goes and gets the gun, chambers a round, walks up to someone else, and pulls the trigger, you can't tell me that the only thing they didn't comprehend was what was gonna happen when that bullet struck the person. That's total fallacy. And as to conceptualizing "right" and "wrong". That is done even before you learn to speak, so whether or not they experience the "big picture, what is the meaning of life" implications of what they just did, they know what they did was wrong.
For some reason, I was under the impression that there was a distinction between adult and minor for a reason. Looks like I was wrong. 12 year olds are adults now people!
And yes, I was saying that a 5 year old has the same cognitive skills as a 12 year old. You did a great job of interpreting what I wrote, correctly. Despite my best efforts to give a false example of the capabilities of a child versus their understanding of the actions in light of adult understanding, you were able to see that I was just saying that 5 year olds think like 12 year olds. Thats really my whole argument here.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The brain takes time to mature, and 12 years is simply not enough to try them as an adult. They do not think like adults. Maybe you are an exception, I have no clue. But I can speak for myself and I certainly didn't think like an adult.
I do not support trying kids as adults, or I would demand that all other adult things are bestowed upon them, and they are treated as adults otherwise. Treating them as adults in court of law but not in other aspects is bullshit.
But, I do not support the notion that people are not able to make important decisions until their brain matures. I think that's just silly. I haven't seen this to be true at all, especially in my home country when kids aren't treated like imbeciles all the time.
I don't even know what you mean by "thinking like an adult". I haven't noticed any drastic changes in my thinking over the years. Perhaps the topics changed, perhaps the method became more complexed, but still all the same.
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http://www.dreamindemon.com/2011/06/05/boy-12-charged-with-beating-his-brother-to-death/
The kid beat his 2 year old brother to death, and is being charged with it. He's had a messed up childhood and a history of beating his brother. They're considering life in jail, rehab, and juvenile stuff.
Personally, I think most people try to hard to save people in bad situations. I'm almost positive that the amount of resources it would take to rehabilitate this creature into a normal, productive human being would outweigh the resources given back to society. I'm not typically for the death penalty, but anything else would just be silly. This kid's messed up hard, and will either OD or be dealing in no time at all. This wasn't an accidental death, he's had a history of attacking his brother. This will haunt him for rest of his life. I say we cut his short and call it a mercy, on society and him.
I don't mean to be so cold-hearted, but I really hate the inefficiency in the justice system.
Recruiting for East Realm
Also recruiting for Sc2 on both EU and NA servers
Bod home Page
He needs lots and lots of tender, loving... medication, heavy medication.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Gonna call shennanigans on that shiz.
You think a 12 year old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Have you ever met a 12 year old? Kids learn to lie, cheat, and steal as soon as they can walk and talk, sometimes before. I have been around kids, and worked with and taught kids for the past decade.
They might not be able to smoke, drink, drive or buy lotto tickets legally, but that's not what defines an adult. I've seen plenty of 12 year old's display better reasoning skills than college age kids as well.
Is there something seriously wrong with a 12 year old that shoots someone to death? Yes. Is one of those things "he didn't know it was wrong" or "he didn't know what he was doing?" Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
The mom is at fault here in my opinion, she knew he had problems and she let it continue. He broke the 2 year olds leg before. She thought it was okay to leave them alone together? He should have been put into an institution to receive help and treatment then, possibly earlier, not be left alone with his 2 year old brother.
There are very few true sociopaths in this world. I have taught kids that went through the same thing. Choice is the defining factor here. You can choose to give up, harm yourself or others, or you can choose to rise above it. But when you choose to harm others, you're taking their choices away from them, and that should carry consequences.
Yeah, we're not talking about knowing "right" and "wrong." Or, at least, Umpa isn't. Humans brains (specifically the parts dealing with long term consequences) do not develop until late teens. There is even some research showing that the male brain does not fully mature until they are in their 20's. As such, the idea is that the individual can not judge the consequences of their action (they might know it is "wrong" to do what they are doing, but they literally are not able to grasp the results of their action on the fly). This is why teenagers (especially males) have a reputation for doing stupid and/or risky things, they simply can not make those decisions the same way a fully matured adult can.
Sure, if you sit them down they can work it out, but for snap judgement, like if you are in the heat of the moment, they just don't do so well.
All that said, I am in favor of "do the crime, do the time." In the perfect world jail would be working towards rehabilitating the inmate, but I don't think that happens too often (not enough money in many cases). I am okay with them getting reduced sentences, but not the massively reduced that typically come with not being tried as an adult.
And brain maturation has nothing to do with it. I met plenty of young males who were not idiots. It's a parenting issue, nothing else. In fact, this whole talk of male brains lets them get away with too many things. "Boys will be boys" ugh. Ugh. Ugh.
This. Ty.
Eq- Right and wrong are concepts that are Dependant upon the maturation of the brain. I don't care how many bright young people you have met. The brain takes time to mature, and 12 years is simply not enough to try them as an adult. They do not think like adults. Maybe you are an exception, I have no clue. But I can speak for myself and I certainly didn't think like an adult.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Now the other boy, not sure if he got help after his abuse, probably showed signs of violence after all of that happened. Does it justify what he did? "Well, he was a troubled boy who was abused." Doesn't change the fact that he beat a defenseless 2 year old to death. And it doesn't make it something that shouldn't be punishable.
Recruiting for East Realm
Also recruiting for Sc2 on both EU and NA servers
Bod home Page
Does that boy who planned it out have the cognitive skills of an adult? A smart 5 year old can kill parents in their sleep the same way. It doesn't mean they understand exactly what they are doing. A 12 year old is not an adult. Nor is their mind developed like an adult. When you were 12 did you think like you do now? Regardless of whether it's fair because he killed someone, it doesn't matter what the crime is. You don't try them as an "adult" because they are not an "adult". We have these distinctions between adult and minor for a reason.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The question wasn't whether he could recognize right or wrong, it was whether he understood how long forever is. At that age, most kids get in trouble for things that effectively go away with a sum of cash to pay for damages. They can't imagine something wrong that lasts forever; someone somewhere will pay the fine for them (and possibly punish them accordingly) and eventually everything goes back to normal, right? Yes, they can reason and they understand right and wrong and the basic principle of 'forever' but they don't really recognize how long that is. The longest time they have ever experienced is just over 10 years, and most of that they can't even remember, so forever is completely inconceivable to them. This, in my opinion, is the reason you can't try kids as an adult. However, what distinctions you make based on this don't have to be as extreme as we normally treat minors when trying them, since I get the impression we reduce a lot of sentences since minors are at an age where they can learn (and therefor rehabilitate) much quicker than an adult, and it would be a greater cost to society to not allow them to have a chance to be productive during their prime years (even if the chance is not the best).
So in summary, we should evaluate why each distinction exists between minor and adult trials and then try them as an adult (or more specifically, remove any restrictions legally mandatory when trying a minor) but with the consideration and mercy due to them based on the distinctions still present between themselves and a mature adult. This lifting of restrictions, however, should be used very sparingly, and only in the most extreme of cases, such as in the case of murder or when a child is unable to mature properly (such as when forced to endure a persistent or exceptionally severe trauma or hardships).
Are you equating the cognitive skills of a five year old with that of a 12 year old...? Sure sounded like it. A 12 year old understands death, I'm sorry but they do. A five year old playing with a gun? I might could see that argument. But when a 12 year old goes and gets the gun, chambers a round, walks up to someone else, and pulls the trigger, you can't tell me that the only thing they didn't comprehend was what was gonna happen when that bullet struck the person. That's total fallacy. And as to conceptualizing "right" and "wrong". That is done even before you learn to speak, so whether or not they experience the "big picture, what is the meaning of life" implications of what they just did, they know what they did was wrong.
For some reason, I was under the impression that there was a distinction between adult and minor for a reason. Looks like I was wrong. 12 year olds are adults now people!
And yes, I was saying that a 5 year old has the same cognitive skills as a 12 year old. You did a great job of interpreting what I wrote, correctly. Despite my best efforts to give a false example of the capabilities of a child versus their understanding of the actions in light of adult understanding, you were able to see that I was just saying that 5 year olds think like 12 year olds. Thats really my whole argument here.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I do not support trying kids as adults, or I would demand that all other adult things are bestowed upon them, and they are treated as adults otherwise. Treating them as adults in court of law but not in other aspects is bullshit.
But, I do not support the notion that people are not able to make important decisions until their brain matures. I think that's just silly. I haven't seen this to be true at all, especially in my home country when kids aren't treated like imbeciles all the time.
I don't even know what you mean by "thinking like an adult". I haven't noticed any drastic changes in my thinking over the years. Perhaps the topics changed, perhaps the method became more complexed, but still all the same.