Please forgive them, for they know not what they speak. And please, oh lord, allow this thread and threads like it to wither away and die as they should.
Amen.
Service is over, BG has provided us with the ammo we need to tear his entire thread to the ground, please leave in an orderly fashion or go down with the ship.
@Bagstone: From all con comments I've read until now here, us forums and reddit, the logic of the low paragon player is the following: "I gain 3-4 levels today. I kill mobs faster tomorrow. I get more level. I get more power. I have something to play for." Seems like most of these people don't enjoy experimenting with new chars, setups, builds etc... And I won't blame them. When you know a build is optimal, you don't have to discover it yourself. You just copy it and you farm paragon. And if your only goal is to creep mobs faster, you aren't interested in completing achievements, conquests, pushing leaderboards etc., then you want the current system to stay and you to have fun enjoying it.
So by being unoriginal, you get bored faster? Hmmmm, logic. From your opening statement though, that's EXACTLY what paragon is SUPPOSED to be. You wanna see dedicated players flee the boat? Cap paragon and insert vanity items for playing 12+ hours a day. See how long it lasts.
The worst thing in this discussion is when people put words in the mouth of high paragon players. This is not something that some low paragon players made up to complain about other people playing more and gaining more. This is about high paragon players being dissatisfied and fed up with the current system. If you are world paragon #1, there is no one to be jealous of. Yet, both Vajet (combined paragon #1) and Ryu (current paragon #1) in their interviews said that this system is flawed:
(Their criticism of the current system can be found if you scroll down in both interviews, answers to the last question.)
The situation is so strange: Low-level paragon players are saying "the system is fine, high-level paragon players should get more power". High- level paragon players are saying "the system is flawed, we should not gain *that* much power". Sigh.
No, you see 'low level' paragons saying everything is fine. You have high level paragons saying 'I feel like I have to farm to compete.' or "I have to wear a hellfire ring because reason 13234".
I don't really understand the problem that keeps cropping up... All I keep hearing is "It's too powerful to ignore". Agreed. "It's broken" it's doing exactly what it's supposed to.
Also, Vajet's main concern didn't seem like it was paragons or farming them, but that botting and farming rift trials and using support builds sucks. Which ties directly to another issue that keeps cropping up, and that's that support builds allow DPS builds to push higher, but I'll leave that one alone.
You have yet to prove the point you're trying to make. and every single comparison that has been made has been at least 150-1000 paragon level differences. Nonsense basically.
So huh? The last few posted are about reducing the amount of exp earned in higher rifts? What kind of backwards logic is that? If you really wanted to go into exp modifiers, why not just say you get 10x more experience for clearing a new grift level, and 5x more for clearing your top 3. The point is the 1% is the 1% and until you quit your job, disown your family and retire your life to D3, you will NeVeR be good enough to pierce through the top 10. Never. Ever. And if blizzard makes that a possibility, I for see the end of D3.
Ugh, I think I'll just leave this thread alone and let you guys pat each others backs... Gem levels? With the removal of perm CC, those GR70 runs are going to implode... that's not even 1% runs. I do agree that the curve on gem levels is harsh, in the same grift hitting for 3 levels you drop from 90% to 60% if successful? Ouch, but that's not point.
Play longer, harder, don't eat, don't sleep, leave your wife, kill your kids, get a bedpan. You'll be the best of the best of the best, sir.
I am Paragon 1,012. I Still look like a joke compared to someone who is even Paragon 1100. It is 500 give or take more main stat.
So the difference between paragon 100 and 200 is inconsequent? or even 600 and 700? You're talking about 100 levels difference. if you were p1001 and looked like a joke to a p1010, then I could understand. However, 100? Good day sir.
The people that are ok with the current system are people that dont play much and/or not competitive. The problem is, you feel compelled you have to do mindless speed runs all day, every day, to keep up and be competitive. I'd rather spend my time pushing higher GRs, solo and group, but you can't do that without spending 95% of your in game time doing speed runs.
Okay, hold up... Now, I will agree that doing the same remedial tedious tasks over and over again gets boring. Season 2... 35's speed runs were the crazy thing to do, while pushing into the high 40's low 50's... Those were top tiered players. Now, how exactly would you propose to fix the problem you are having? More experience/kill on an exponential slope in higher GRs? That will just set the plateau of speed farming higher. Removing paragon (800+ at least)? Capping paragon caps your character, which is the opposite of what paragon was intended to do. Unlock the other trees and spread more paragons in more places? Sure, but that's just another dump...
The main thing I keep seeing is that the power creep is too strong to ignore... which keeps people playing... which is what everybody wants? If you skip just one day of speed farming, does that mean that you can never hit the top 10 on leaderboards? There is a lot of skill involved in clearing greater rifts 50+... a lot of white mobs can 1 shot you if you're not careful. While your 1000 extra mainstay may help you kill them faster, that doesn't mean if they touch you, you don't die.
I'm sorry for the wall of texts, but I can't get over how many people are talking about betting/paragons... It seems like the community is just shifting and incorporating everything into 1 hot button issue. Paragon is fine, be competitive, do 1/2 speed runs, 1/2 pushing? Last I checked you still get experience for pushing.
It's interesting how many low paragon people accuse me of being jealous of high paragon players, call this "whining", or talk about solo vs group or botting issues. None of this has anything to do with this thread.
Yes it does, a lot of people complain that high paragons are achieved via malicious methods, which is tied directly to your original point.
Empyrian said it on stream yesterday. Gabynator wrote it on Empyrian's Twitch chat. I think both raised this concern on the official forums/Reddit.
Both names you brought up are known cheaters/exploiters. The other 'not so well known high-paragon players' can be dissatisfied and proclaim it to the stars.
At paragon 800, it looked fine. But once I got close to paragon 1000 I realized how stupid and boring it is. I could be happy over the 1000 more main stat I have - but I'm not. Instead I feel that the only thing I have to increase my character's power is paragon. This is supposed to be a loot-based game, but it turned into a paragon-based game.
Of course the system 'seems boring'... after 16 billion experience earned, or "every hour you play" you gain 5 primary stat... it's a power creep, not a jump.
It is a loot based game. I'd love to see the paragon 1000+ that clears 50+ in yellows.
Paragon is the answer to "What do I do when I have the best gear?"
The group or groups of players who choose to farm/leech experience, usually band together for 8-12 hour blocks and constantly farm. Should this play style be rewarded? Absolutely.
I agree that time should reward player, but not in way paragon does (adding a flat stat bonus), rather having time to try difficult things again and again.
After I'm geared, I want to spent my time pushing the GR record, not farming paragon and get my record in few try thanks to my paragon...
I don't quite understand... for each power creep there is a new level of difficulty, it's an infinite tower of Grift levels... So 50 was hard? Gain some paragon levels, now 55 is hard? Keep going... Now 60 is hard? Wow... progression? I realize that a straight power gain seems like "OMG that guy who spends 10 more hours a day than I do is better than me" but, face facts, it's a dungeon grind, the more time spent the better you'll be. The stash space and currency idea sounds like a great idea on paper, but again, falls too far off the radar in actuality to even be considered an idea. The streamers, the hardcore, all of it is useless without power creep. Reducing the effectiveness of Paragon points? Sure... or they could even unlock the other trees so you could put 350 points in life%. The current system how it is works as a progression tree, and as such, only the strong (or in this case those with nothing better to do) survive. Does this sort of system breed illicit behaviour? Does baseball produce juice junkies? Of course it does. Difference is that you can do it in the comfort of your own home.
Face facts people, for box value on RoS, D3 has received much more in terms of content, patches, quality of life improvements, and with even more on the way... for FREE. Quit finding things to pick apart and enjoy your journey.
I'm confused... the OP mentions that the exponential growth rate of paragon experience needed caps out at ~170 billion. Yet this is farmable via group play speed farming in sub-difficult GRs in an hour (or so). First, let me propose this: The group or groups of players who choose to farm/leech experience, usually band together for 8-12 hour blocks and constantly farm. Should this play style be rewarded? Absolutely. You argue time spent vs reward, the 4 hr a day player will always be left in the dust due to the generic loot system that D3 holds regardless of paragon. Now, to your original point, paragon ep required from 1999 to 2000 and 2000+ is the same? Good. 170 billion per paragon seems grim, but solo farming non-stop T6 rifts you cap out at approx 2.5-3 billion exp/hour. The "faster" you speak of doesn't exist, if you've achieved paragon 2000, you've most likely gotten perfect rolls in every slot. The generic power creep of paragon does exist, but if you take that away, all blizzard will be left with is the casual mediocre players that are crying about not being able to hit the leaderboards. My suggestion is as follows:
Initiate a plan at season start: Form a group of 4 friends that play at roughly the same times/lengths you do, and decide who is filling what role for the majority of the beginning of the season, and play with them, even at 4 hours a day, you'll still be way out in front of the duos and the solos... Would you really enjoy it if they complained that you were ahead of them because you have group play?
The entire dynamic of threads like these are actually relieving, that even for solo players, there is a point where paragons become a steady earning, instead of an impossible mountain to climb.
As for botting... everybody screams bot, but without proof... Yea sure maybe they did... Maybe they didn't... Maybe they just had a better plan than you and achieved goals much more quickly than you did, and that head start has kept them ahead.
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Dear God,
Please forgive them, for they know not what they speak. And please, oh lord, allow this thread and threads like it to wither away and die as they should.
Amen.
Service is over, BG has provided us with the ammo we need to tear his entire thread to the ground, please leave in an orderly fashion or go down with the ship.
So by being unoriginal, you get bored faster? Hmmmm, logic. From your opening statement though, that's EXACTLY what paragon is SUPPOSED to be. You wanna see dedicated players flee the boat? Cap paragon and insert vanity items for playing 12+ hours a day. See how long it lasts.
No, you see 'low level' paragons saying everything is fine. You have high level paragons saying 'I feel like I have to farm to compete.' or "I have to wear a hellfire ring because reason 13234".
I don't really understand the problem that keeps cropping up... All I keep hearing is "It's too powerful to ignore". Agreed. "It's broken" it's doing exactly what it's supposed to.
Also, Vajet's main concern didn't seem like it was paragons or farming them, but that botting and farming rift trials and using support builds sucks. Which ties directly to another issue that keeps cropping up, and that's that support builds allow DPS builds to push higher, but I'll leave that one alone.
You have yet to prove the point you're trying to make. and every single comparison that has been made has been at least 150-1000 paragon level differences. Nonsense basically.
So huh? The last few posted are about reducing the amount of exp earned in higher rifts? What kind of backwards logic is that? If you really wanted to go into exp modifiers, why not just say you get 10x more experience for clearing a new grift level, and 5x more for clearing your top 3. The point is the 1% is the 1% and until you quit your job, disown your family and retire your life to D3, you will NeVeR be good enough to pierce through the top 10. Never. Ever. And if blizzard makes that a possibility, I for see the end of D3.
Ugh, I think I'll just leave this thread alone and let you guys pat each others backs... Gem levels? With the removal of perm CC, those GR70 runs are going to implode... that's not even 1% runs. I do agree that the curve on gem levels is harsh, in the same grift hitting for 3 levels you drop from 90% to 60% if successful? Ouch, but that's not point.
Play longer, harder, don't eat, don't sleep, leave your wife, kill your kids, get a bedpan. You'll be the best of the best of the best, sir.
So the difference between paragon 100 and 200 is inconsequent? or even 600 and 700? You're talking about 100 levels difference. if you were p1001 and looked like a joke to a p1010, then I could understand. However, 100? Good day sir.
Okay, hold up... Now, I will agree that doing the same remedial tedious tasks over and over again gets boring. Season 2... 35's speed runs were the crazy thing to do, while pushing into the high 40's low 50's... Those were top tiered players. Now, how exactly would you propose to fix the problem you are having? More experience/kill on an exponential slope in higher GRs? That will just set the plateau of speed farming higher. Removing paragon (800+ at least)? Capping paragon caps your character, which is the opposite of what paragon was intended to do. Unlock the other trees and spread more paragons in more places? Sure, but that's just another dump...
The main thing I keep seeing is that the power creep is too strong to ignore... which keeps people playing... which is what everybody wants? If you skip just one day of speed farming, does that mean that you can never hit the top 10 on leaderboards? There is a lot of skill involved in clearing greater rifts 50+... a lot of white mobs can 1 shot you if you're not careful. While your 1000 extra mainstay may help you kill them faster, that doesn't mean if they touch you, you don't die.
I'm sorry for the wall of texts, but I can't get over how many people are talking about betting/paragons... It seems like the community is just shifting and incorporating everything into 1 hot button issue. Paragon is fine, be competitive, do 1/2 speed runs, 1/2 pushing? Last I checked you still get experience for pushing.
Yes it does, a lot of people complain that high paragons are achieved via malicious methods, which is tied directly to your original point.
Both names you brought up are known cheaters/exploiters. The other 'not so well known high-paragon players' can be dissatisfied and proclaim it to the stars.
Of course the system 'seems boring'... after 16 billion experience earned, or "every hour you play" you gain 5 primary stat... it's a power creep, not a jump.
It is a loot based game. I'd love to see the paragon 1000+ that clears 50+ in yellows.
Paragon is the answer to "What do I do when I have the best gear?"
Your points are all invalid.
I don't quite understand... for each power creep there is a new level of difficulty, it's an infinite tower of Grift levels... So 50 was hard? Gain some paragon levels, now 55 is hard? Keep going... Now 60 is hard? Wow... progression? I realize that a straight power gain seems like "OMG that guy who spends 10 more hours a day than I do is better than me" but, face facts, it's a dungeon grind, the more time spent the better you'll be. The stash space and currency idea sounds like a great idea on paper, but again, falls too far off the radar in actuality to even be considered an idea. The streamers, the hardcore, all of it is useless without power creep. Reducing the effectiveness of Paragon points? Sure... or they could even unlock the other trees so you could put 350 points in life%. The current system how it is works as a progression tree, and as such, only the strong (or in this case those with nothing better to do) survive. Does this sort of system breed illicit behaviour? Does baseball produce juice junkies? Of course it does. Difference is that you can do it in the comfort of your own home.
Face facts people, for box value on RoS, D3 has received much more in terms of content, patches, quality of life improvements, and with even more on the way... for FREE. Quit finding things to pick apart and enjoy your journey.
I'm confused... the OP mentions that the exponential growth rate of paragon experience needed caps out at ~170 billion. Yet this is farmable via group play speed farming in sub-difficult GRs in an hour (or so). First, let me propose this: The group or groups of players who choose to farm/leech experience, usually band together for 8-12 hour blocks and constantly farm. Should this play style be rewarded? Absolutely. You argue time spent vs reward, the 4 hr a day player will always be left in the dust due to the generic loot system that D3 holds regardless of paragon. Now, to your original point, paragon ep required from 1999 to 2000 and 2000+ is the same? Good. 170 billion per paragon seems grim, but solo farming non-stop T6 rifts you cap out at approx 2.5-3 billion exp/hour. The "faster" you speak of doesn't exist, if you've achieved paragon 2000, you've most likely gotten perfect rolls in every slot. The generic power creep of paragon does exist, but if you take that away, all blizzard will be left with is the casual mediocre players that are crying about not being able to hit the leaderboards. My suggestion is as follows:
Initiate a plan at season start: Form a group of 4 friends that play at roughly the same times/lengths you do, and decide who is filling what role for the majority of the beginning of the season, and play with them, even at 4 hours a day, you'll still be way out in front of the duos and the solos... Would you really enjoy it if they complained that you were ahead of them because you have group play?
The entire dynamic of threads like these are actually relieving, that even for solo players, there is a point where paragons become a steady earning, instead of an impossible mountain to climb.
As for botting... everybody screams bot, but without proof... Yea sure maybe they did... Maybe they didn't... Maybe they just had a better plan than you and achieved goals much more quickly than you did, and that head start has kept them ahead.