Quote from GladHeHasBeta
1. a sense of progression from forcing to re-lvl? you mean a sense of redundancy?
It would only be redundant if you level with the exact same build/skills as you had done so previously which is not at all what I was referring to. If they want to make the claim that new skill builds are like new play experiences, then I would say being consistent with that then NO, it would not have a sense of redundancy. And in that there would still be progression inherently from re-leveling. No one says you HAVE to re-level a new build (after having a max level class of one type of build), but it adds depth and replay-ability long term.
Quote from GladHeHasBeta
2. you obviously have not spent much time on the skill calc. i have spent hundreds of hours with it and i can say without a doubt there are at least hundreds of possible builds that are a lot different for each class. 100x more then D2 had. considering how much fun and time ive spent just on the skill calc alone, actually using these builds will make it last infinitely longer.
While I can see your point here, and it is a good one, its still speculation. You don't know how well any of those builds will really transfer over into the game at release. In relation to a point I was making before, there may be some more diverse and interesting ways to play, but that may give the player an inherent disadvantage or "not full maximization" depending on your point of view. They may also just not really be as much fun in practice as they are on paper. And again this point was in relation to hardcore and avid players, people who will be concerned with something like this. However again, I can see where you are coming from as I have done something similar (albeit to a much lesser extent) it's just still to be foreseen how it will actually translate.
Quote from GladHeHasBeta
3. his response doesnt side step anything. he gives the exact response he should because its the truth.
This is again where we disagree. He does sidestep the issue because he does not address the concerns the OP brings up, rather he offers his opinion on the consequences. He does not directly address or give a response to the OP and therefore nothing was really answered. I am still left wondering "how does this new system function long term?" If I am still left wondering anything, than to be fair, the blue post has not answered constructively enough.
Quote from GladHeHasBeta
4. gear has always been the main point of longevity in diablo, and then ppl complain when its the same thing in the sequal? lol?
The one thing I would appreciate is to not put words in my mouth. I never said that at all, the reason I've played D2 since release is I enjoy the item hunt. However its the variety of ways in which you approach it that makes D2 great. If it was really all about the item hunt can you say you'd have fun with only 1 class and many more items? No of course not, because some diversity will always be better and give you an opportunity to, as I said, do the same thing but differently. I know that they have some ways to do this with the current system, but I feel as though they could have (and almost did) go a much better route in doing it. Even without the locked in skill builds I thought it was ok because of the skill rune hunt, but that is removed too which re-raises some concerns for me.
Quote from GladHeHasBeta
5. there is absolutely nothing stopping you from replaying or recreating a character. D2 FORCED you to do this which was bogus and they finally added respecs a little bit ago which made it way better. people are brain washed into thinking the permanancy of D2 was a good thing when it added nothing but an inconvenience. why? because it took a whole 3 hours to get a new char from 1-80 to test out your new build n equip all the gear you farmed from your other guy. so again i say, it added nothing. all thats changed is now people have a choice to re-level a new char to test new builds or use the same one.
people complain hard about how D3 took away choices, took away the choice of skill points and the choice of attributes. then they rage hardcore about given a choice to re-lvl or not? lol....
Finally, I do agree with you somewhat there. Again I'll ask not to put words in my mouth because I was fine with the removal of attributes, granted I still would like to have seen skill points in because even incremental increases give a sense of progression and accomplishment. I've toyed with that notion many times, there is nothing stopping you from making a new character so why not just add self imposed restrictions, stick with a build and if you want another one then make a new character? But obviously I won't do that because I'll just respec. I'm not detracting at all from the convenience or positives it brings, but I think in the long term it harms the replay-ability and integrity of the game. There really isn't a reason to re-level a character of the same class anymore and because of that I doubt I will do so. I know I will be able to but I have no incentive to do so because I can change builds on a whim, and that saddens me. Again as a hardcore player myself most of this is catered to my opinion and needs, but as I've said before; "Inevitably all new players will become experienced players, experienced players will not revert back to being new players." With this mindset blizzard should be catering the majority of the game to experienced players (in my opinion). Experienced players will do some research on a build before committing to it fully, and probably wouldn't level all the way up to 80 if they don't anticipate liking the build. That was also all after many years of the game being out and no longer supported avidly, I suspect it will be a long time before having to deal with issues like that in D3.
I look forward to seeing your responses to the questions I have brought forth.
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This is a build made to have a good balance between damage and survivability. It takes advantage of arcane synergies. Temporal Flux for a slow, Disruption Arcane Torrent for weakness, Then most other skills are modified in a way to have them regenerate arcane power or pass through enemies to give more slow. Ray of frost is also added for extra survivability and because I think it looks awesome.
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Define people who are deserving? Just because you want to try the beta SOOOO bad makes you more deserving than anyone else who also wants to try the beta? I'm so sick of posts like this, get over yourself.
This exactly. I've been lurking this website since the first episode of diablocast. It is really a shame how the elitist spirit has run rampant among most of the users. It's turning into elitist jerks 2.0. It's called a contest, not a "hook our long time users up with beta keys" event.
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You make a few valid points. The way the runes were most recently definitely would not have worked, however the original unattenuated rune system I feel is fine. Where I disagree with you is giving a player access to something to make it easier for them, which is essentially what you are saying. Just because it may take time to get a drop you want doesn't mean that it should just be given to you by default for playing (via leveling up) Diablo 2 is about itemization, working to hunt for a new rune to make one of your abilities more powerful was another very rewarding form of progression in a game where end game can become very tedious very fast without any raids like WoW. There were many ways in which you could acquire a rune without having it drop for you; either it drops for a friend and they give it to you, you trade for it, buy it on the AH. All of these elements have essentially been removed. Runes could have held valuable in the economy and possibly made you real money via the RMAH. Yes it may be frustrating hunting endlessly for an item but thats really what Diablo is about, and it makes it FEEL that much better when you are finally rewarded with it vs just being given it by default. This comes back to my other central point which is Blizzard neglects the psyche of their player in recent designs, in my opinion. I will always get feeling of much greater accomplishment having to work for and manipulate in some way (via farming or haggling in a trade) to get my item, vs just playing the game and having it automatically given to me. Leveling in Diablo isn't hard. Hell and Inferno might be much harder respectively vs the difficulties in D2, but hitting the level cap will not be a hard feat to accomplish, and in turn unlocking anything along the way will not be that hard either. To further relate it to your point, yes they may be making it more megaman-like, but the means by which they are doing so is not ideal. But then again, I also feel like learning it from a website isn't that big of a deal, its just when you short a player some experience to make it easier or spell it all out directly by giving it to them that irritates me.
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Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.
/rant
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This exactly. Without this it removes a huge feeling of progression. I don't care if it's "built in" with the new system, having to level up to unlock them. It doesn't feel as tangible or rewarding if you simply are given it by the game rather then having to work for it. It also further encourages play through harder difficulties.
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To everyone that IS happy about the change, would you be against having rune drops that were just arbitrary. That is 7 ranks of 5 runes that could drop, and work for every class and every skill. This leaves 35 total runes that could drop which is a completely manageable number. Apparently this is the way it was last summer, and I'm not sure why it was changed but if it was a tooltip issue as suggested I am almost positive there would have been a work around for that. I would have much rather had them take a little bit of time and solve a simple tooltip issue than to completely remove the system and thereby more itemization from the game. Even if it is an incremental increase, you all know that even finding something a LITTLE bit better feels awesome. Blizzard continually removes these changes to try to keep the mantra that they want fewer but more impacting changes upon leveling, etc. However in my opinion they fail to realize just how important these small improvements feel (ex, in WoW new the epic gems only gave you like +5 more to a stat and yet they were abhorrently expensive on the AH).
tl;dr: Given that runes used to drop for individual skills, I support the change. However I think it would be very easy to keep runes as arbitrary, having the drops work for any skill on any class and have a subjective purpose for each skill. 5 runes x 7 ranks = 35 items which is a very manageable number.
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Ah, thank you. That clears it up quite a bit. I still think that there would be a way to solve the tooltip issue without having to completely scrap the item idea entirely. Remember the days when you had to read the game manual to learn about the game? They could have payed homage to those archaic times, remove the need for a tooltip and just list the info there or on the website. I understand that you should be able to have all the info in game but I feel like there would be a simple way to remove the tooltip issue. For example, the skill builder they have online seems to do that pretty well. Even if it does take up a lot of screen, it isn't unreasonable to expect players to mess with runes while in a town and thus screen space wouldn't be that big of an issue.
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Edit: Never mind I understand now. I had no idea there were SPECIFIC rune drops for specific skills, thats a horrible system. Why not just keep it arbitrary like the way I had presumed them to work? Instead of having 7 ranks of alabaster runes drop for every skill for every class, just let them have their own individual effect per skill.
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D2 is pretty much all about farming barring pvp? What else is there to do at level 60? There are no raids like WoW. D2 is about itemization which inevitably comes via farming for better or worse. Spread it out, have rares/champions drop better loot than bosses, call it 'exploration' or whatever you like but at the core it's still farming. How can you not take that seriously or say otherwise?
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Bit of a departure from the vast array of computer science and military people here.
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Why do you think you are more entitled to be in the beta test than anyone else? The beta test is to test the game out and find bugs, not to appease their fans. That's what the retail game is for. No offense but I just don't get these egocentric perspective posts. I've played the game since original release, I haven't gotten beta yet, but that's sort of just what it is. It's random. In any case good luck.
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