After running some numbers in Electric's Trash thread I got really interested as to how all the spells relate to each other damage wise with their new modifiers. The method I've come up with seems fairly solid so I'm going to go over it here with each spell.
These are my general assumptions with each spell:
1). 1000 base damage to be modified by the spells.
2). 1 second cast time for non-channeled spells, channeled spells deal damage every 1 second.
3). 7 second time window. (This is for Arcane spells to get Arcane Torrent's 120% increased damage before it has to be recast. It also seems like a realistic time period to expect monsters to die in.)
4). I will take what I assume to be the highest damage rune for the spell. (Requests for other runes an option.)
5). Only 2 spells per rotation. No Passives or Utility spells. (For example adding Crimson Familiar to any build would effect it equally, no need to add it to calculations.) The primary reason for this assumption is to reduce complexity. My hope is that people can take the numbers I come up with, and use them in builds they want and modify them based on their other spells.
6). Any Arcane spell will be coupled with Crimson Arcane Torrent to maximize damage. For other spells I'll say what they're combo'd with.
7). For Crimson Disintegrate and Ray of Frost I'm assuming 0 charge up time. (Meaning their actual numbers would be slightly lower).
8). Each build will assume a single target and that everything hits. (Obviously this assumption may seem odd in certain cases, just remember that in Diablo you're very, very rarely ever going to be fighting single mobs meaning that in certain cases these numbers are a lot lower than they would be. Using a single target provides an excellent baseline for the spells damage.)
9). Base Wizard AP stats. (100 AP, 12.5 regen/sec)
10). For duration spells such as Hydra and Blizzard when they are cast I'm going to calculate their full duration damage.
Signature Spells:
Indigo Magic Missile: (Just to re-state, yes, I know you couldn't hit a single target with all 8 missiles. Just think of this as spamming Fork MM and hitting with every bolt).
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2000 damage.
2 - MM: 550 * 8 = 4,400 + 120% Crimson AT boost = 9,680.
3 - MM: 9,680 damage.
4 - MM: 9,680 damage.
5 - MM: 9,680 damage.
6 - MM: 9,680 damage.
7 - MM: 9,680 damage.
Total Damage = 60,080.
Crimson Spectral Blade: (I'm assuming the bleed effect won't stack just refresh, if it does these numbers jump).
Special Case: I know I said no Utility spells, but anyone using Spectral Blade for damage will be using Magic Weapon as well. I'm going to assume Crimson Magic Weapon was cast before this rotation, and that the burn effect doesn't stack, just refreshes.
Base Damage 1000 +20% MW = 1200
1 - Spectral Blade: 420 * 3 = 5,850 damage + 540 bleed + 840 burn = 7,230 damage.
2 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
3 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
4 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
5 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
6 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
7 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
Total Damage = 50,610.
I'm going to skip Electrocute for now both because I'm not sure which rune to use and because we don't know if the damage is 1 - 150% weapon damage or just a flat 150%.
Offensive Spells:
Wave of Force - Cooldown too long to be used in this situation. As a side note, this belongs in Utility IMO.
Crimson Arcane Orb:
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2,000 damage.
2 - Arcane Orb: 4,950 + 120% Crimson AT boost = 10,890.
3 - Arcane Orb: 10,890 damage.
4 - Arcane Orb: 10,890 damage.
5 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
6 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
7 - Arcane Orb: 10,890 damage.
Total Damage = 45,560. (Higher regen or base AP will increase damage over 7 seconds).
Alabaster Energy Twister:
I used this in Electric's thread to try and show him Twister wasn't worthless. I picked Alabaster since it's very easy to understand the numbers on a singular stationary target. The key is to realize that each Twister lasts 7 - 10 seconds (not positive) and continues doing damage while it's active. A Crimson rune will do more damage assuming the Twister is always hitting something while it moves, I can do the numbers for it if someone wants. Keep in mind each Twister can hit multiple enemies as well. The need to stop for 2 seconds due to AP cuts back on the damage on this build, with other spells and passives to help offset this you can see it can do non-negligable damage (It WILL pass Disintegrate in damage).
With the duration modification this spell works slightly differently since we can't assume each twister will get +120% damage from Torrent for it's full duration. Of all the duration modifications, this spell is the least accurate since a recast of Torrent will greatly increase this spells damage.
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2,000 damage.
2 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 6 second duration + 840 * 1 remaining second = 11,928 damage.
3 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 5 second duration + 840 * 2 remaining seconds = 10,920 damage.
4 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 4 second duration + 840 * 3 remaining seconds = 9,912 damage.
5 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
6 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
7 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 1 seconds duration + 840 * 6 remaining seconds = 6,888 damage.
Total Damage = 39,648.
Alabaster Explosive Blast:
I'm going to assume that like Crimson the delay is removed for this rune since it will take time for all 8 explosions to go off.
1 - Explosive Blast: 910 * 8 = 7,280 damage.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Explosive Blast: 7,280 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Explosive Blast: 7,280 damage.
6 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
7 - Explosive Blast: 7,280 damage.
Total Damage = 32,420.
Hydra - I was going to skip this since we don't know how fast the heads attack, but I'll assume once a second. Alabaster combo'd with Crimson Torrent would be top damage, we need AP regen though, and with the 2 spell limit I'm going to go with Indigo.
Indigo Hydra:
1 - Hydra: 880 damage * 3 heads = 2,640 damage * 9 second duration = 23,760.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Hydra: 23,760 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
6 - Hydra: 23,760 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 75,680.
Crimson Ray of Frost:
1 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
2 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
3 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
4 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
5 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
6 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 44,000.
Crimson Meteor:
The burn effect afterwards states 143% OVER 3 seconds not per second over 3 seconds. This is a very low number and hopefully a mistake. I'm going with it here though.
1 - Meteor: 9,900 damage + 1430 damage over 3 seconds = 11,330 damage.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Meteor: 11,330 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
6 - Meteor: 11,330 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 38,390.
And now in ranking from most to least damage: (Keep in mind this is single target damage over 7 seconds) Indigo Meteor - 127,040 Indigo Hydra - 75,680 Indigo Magic Missile - 60,080 Crimson Spectral Blade - 50,610 Crimson Arcane Orb - 45,560 Crimson Disintegrate - 45,560 Crimson Ray of Frost - 44,000 Crimson Shock Pulse - 40,950 Alabaster Energy Twister - 39,648 Indigo Blizzard - 39,300 Crimson Meteor - 38,390 Alabaster Explosive Blast - 32,420 Crimson Arcane Torrent - 28,400
Things I'm taking away from all this:
Indigo Meteor is godly. (As I've been stating over and over.)
Signature Spell spamming is shockingly effective. A Crimson Torrent + Indigo MM could work very well as a build.
Melee Wizards seem 100% viable.
Even needing to recast Crimson Torrent, Crimson Disintegrate seems to always be better than Crimson Ray of Frost (minus the slowing effect).
Arcane Torrent + Arcane Orb does much more damage than Arcane Torrent + Disintegrate assuming enough base AP and AP regen.
Keep in mind this is very limited, relatively un-realistic testing. My goal with this post was to at least help people get an idea of the damage of these spells over a short period of time unassisted by other spells that will only make them even more effective.
I really hope this is at least a bit helpful and I didn't just completely waste a ton of time. If people have better ideas of how to run this test or want other spell/rune combos let me know.
FULL BUILDS:
Rules:
1). Since we don't know much about Crimson Mirror Image don't include it for now. Armor Spells, Magic Weapon, and Familiar are in effect before your 7 seconds start, but nothing else. (Assuming you have them in your build.) In the case of Magic Weapon's 20% damage boost apply that to the 1000 base damage first, so you get 1,200 base damage. Then calculate base spell damage from that number.
2). All the assumptions from the above section are true minus spell limitations.
3). Since we don't know how Blizzard is going to apply % damage increases combine your percentages into one and apply that. (Familiar + Slow Time = 40% + 140% = 180%). As long as everyone follows the same method the numbers will be fair even if that's not how Blizz ends up doing it.
4). Need a link to the full build. Credit will of course be given to whoever posts the build.
5). Don't forget about AP!!!!
Crimson Ray of Frost:
1 - Crimson Frost Nova: 750 damage.
2 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
3 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
4 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
5 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
6 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
7 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage
Total Damage = 75,110.
Good post Arcane. However just a couple of questions:
1) Why 1000 base damage? (as opposed to say 100?) Is it for ease of calculation? Just trying to get a sense for the calculations and basis for comparisons.
5) Its a good start I think. However, a little limiting but I see the need for rules to follow.
For example, Procylon's use of Frost Nova (a utility) should be excluded because it is (1) a utility and given the time frame of 7 seconds, an excellent way to increase dmg by 110% for 4 seconds and applies to all damage spells.
Where do we go from here. Folks will inevitably want to start creating builds/combos, with more than just 2 spells and will want to add utility/passives. What rules should be restrict ourselves to?
I think a better assumption for Hydra is 1 attack/head/sec, so 3/sec for the Hydra overall (a substantial shift.) Golden (Brimstone) Hydra, which summons a single-headed Hydra that throws firewalls is the only one with what I expect to be a different (1/3) attack speed, but that one's damage in not yet calculable since we don't know the duration of the firewalls (although we could assume a duration and see what it's damage is then.)
We know the charge time for Ray of Frost, but not for Disintegrate, so comparing them to each other (or Disintegrate to anything) is going to be rather difficult.
Frost Nova can be used with anything unless freeze/chill effects are ended by non-frost damage.
Some of the spells (Hydra and Blizzard) receive crippled damage estimates within a 7-sec window, since they have short cast times but long durations. I would suggest assuming their full damage period's worth of damage simply applied within the assumed 1-sec cast time (in effect, this is equivalent to the real damage model for a sustained steady-state fight.)
Everything will do more damage with Crimson Frost Nova. Crimson Slow Time can be applied to everything here for 140% increased damage since it lasts 10 seconds and you could assume it was cast before the 7 seconds rotation. I can't edit these numbers into my original post since I'm not taking Utility spells into account for this base level of getting numbers.
Make a full build (6 actives, 3 passives) if you want to test with other spells and we'll get a section going for those.
Good post Arcane. However just a couple of questions:
1) Why 1000 base damage? (as opposed to say 100?) Is it for ease of calculation? Just trying to get a sense for the calculations and basis for comparisons.
5) Its a good start I think. However, a little limiting but I see the need for rules to follow.
For example, Procylon's use of Frost Nova (a utility) should be excluded because it is (1) a utility and given the time frame of 7 seconds, an excellent way to increase dmg by 110% for 4 seconds and applies to all damage spells.
Where do we go from here. Folks will inevitably want to start creating builds/combos, with more than just 2 spells and will want to add utility/passives. What rules should be restrict ourselves to?
The base number is completely irrelevant since all the spells use the same one. It isn't the end damage number that maters, it's how the spells end up relating to each other. 1000 is just a very easy number to do initial percents on. (292% is 2920)
Yes, Crimson Frost Nova or Crimson Slow Time are both excellent damage increases. The way I viewed it is that anyone planning on using an arcane spell as their primary damage will always be using Crimson Arcane Torrent to maximize their damage. In the case of utility spells they can be included in any build depending on the players preference.
The primary point of this post was to indicate while there may be some clear leaders in damage spells, everything should be viable since most of the spells are in the same damage range. Although Torrent on it's own is shockingly ineffective.
From here you can make a full build of 6 actives and 3 passives and run it over an optimal single target 7 seconds and compare it to another. If you post the 2 builds I can run the numbers, just remember that we don't know how some stuff works (Crimson Mirror Image).
I think a better assumption for Hydra is 1 attack/head/sec, so 3/sec for the Hydra overall (a substantial shift.) Golden (Brimstone) Hydra, which summons a single-headed Hydra that throws firewalls is the only one with what I expect to be a different (1/3) attack speed, but that one's damage in not yet calculable since we don't know the duration of the firewalls (although we could assume a duration and see what it's damage is then.)
We know the charge time for Ray of Frost, but not for Disintegrate, so comparing them to each other (or Disintegrate to anything) is going to be rather difficult.
Frost Nova can be used with anything unless freeze/chill effects are ended by non-frost damage.
Some of the spells (Hydra and Blizzard) receive crippled damage estimates within a 7-sec window, since they have short cast times but long durations. I would suggest assuming their full damage period's worth of damage simply applied within the assumed 1-sec cast time (in effect, this is equivalent to the real damage model for a sustained steady-state fight.)
Unfortunately that was how I ran the Hydra damage. (Sorry I wasn't clear enough.) I'll go over it in a bit more detail:
Indigo Hydra:
1 - Hydra: 880 damage * 3 heads = 2,640 damage. (880 damage per head, 3 heads, is 2,640 damage a second)
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage + 2,640 = 3190 damage. (Magic missile damage + damage from the Hydra you cast last second)
3 - Hydra: 5,280 damage. (2 hydras, 6 heads) (Now there's 2 hydras so 2,640 * 2)
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 + 5,280 = 5,830 damage. (MM + 2 hydras dps)
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 + 5,280 = 5,830 damage. (MM + 2 hydras dps)
6 - Hydra: 7,920 damage. (3 hydras, 9 heads) (3 hydras means 2,640 * 3)
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 + 7,920 = 8,470 damage. (MM + 3 hydras dps)
Total Damage = 41,360.
You are right about the duration spells, and I feel it's a valid enough point that I'm going to go back and modify how I record them just like you mentioned. On CAST I'm going to assume the spell does its full, maximum duration damage. So Indigo Hydra would do 880 damage per head * 3 heads * 9 seconds = 23,760.
The build you requested for your last simulation on the first post is impossible!
Passives work out, but actives do not:
Passive 1: Glass Cannon
Passive 2: Astral Presence
Passive 3: Conflagration
Active 1: Obsidian Magic Weapon
Active 2: Indigo Energy Armor (not sure if you prefer Golden Storm Armor)
Active 3: Crimson Familiar
Active 4: Crimson Slow Time
Active 5: Crimson Frost Nova
Active 6: Indigo Meteor ACTIVE 7: MAGIC MISSLE
The build you requested for your last simulation on the first post is impossible!
Passives work out, but actives do not:
Passive 1: Glass Cannon
Passive 2: Astral Presence
Passive 3: Conflagration
Active 1: Obsidian Magic Weapon
Active 2: Indigo Energy Armor (not sure if you prefer Golden Storm Armor)
Active 3: Crimson Familiar
Active 4: Crimson Slow Time
Active 5: Crimson Frost Nova
Active 6: Indigo Meteor ACTIVE 7: MAGIC MISSLE
ruh roh rooby roo...
What? There's a link to the build and I never said anything about Magic Weapon......
Rules:
1). Since we don't know much about Crimson Mirror Image don't include it for now. Armor Spells, Magic Weapon, and Familiar are in effect before your 7 seconds start, but nothing else.
2). All the assumptions from the above section are true minus spell limitations.
3). Since we don't know how Blizzard is going to apply % damage increases combine your percentages into one and apply that. (Familiar + Slow Time = 40% + 140% = 180%). As long as everyone follows the same method the numbers will be fair even if that's not how Blizz ends up doing it.
4). Need a link to the full build. Credit will of course be given to whoever posts the build.
5). Don't forget about AP!!!!
EDIT1: Changed Blizzard, Hydra, Crimson Meteor, and Energy Twister to more accurately reflect their damage.
EDIT2: Added the Full Build section!
You asked for a build based on this, and all of these skills do add damage to the combination (save for the shield, but that adds extra cast). Mentioned above are Armor spells, Magic Weapon, Familiar, Slow Time, Frost Nova, Meteor, MM. I did not bring this up to say HAHA U MESSED UP U WRONG, I only brought it up to say that we have to make a choice based on Magic Weapon in our builds now, since Weapon Damage boosts spell damage
You asked for a build based on this, and all of these skills do add damage to the combination (save for the shield, but that adds extra cast). Mentioned above are Armor spells, Magic Weapon, Familiar, Slow Time, Frost Nova, Meteor, MM. I did not bring this up to say HAHA U MESSED UP U WRONG, I only brought it up to say that we have to make a choice based on Magic Weapon in our builds now, since Weapon Damage boosts spell damage
Right.... I asked people to post their builds if they wanted to compare numbers to other builds. I don't want to just post a ton of builds, community contribution would be nice.
I posted a build. The numbers I calculate are only using the spells in the link to the build.
I state that you can assume Armor spells, Familiar, and Magic Weapon are cast before the 7 second window so you don't have to waste time casting them in your calculations.
So with the build I posted instead of going:
1 - Energy Armor: 0 damage.
2 - Familiar: 0 damage.
3 - Slow Time: 0 damage.
4 - Frost Nova: 750 damage.
etc....
I'm assuming that I've already cast Energy Armor and Familiar. IF my build had Magic Weapon (which it doesn't) I would assume that it had been cast before hand as well.
Hey guys! We have an extra buff to our damage through Magic Weapon! I believe this should be taken into consideration, as you will only need to cast it every 60 seconds instead of Frost Nova every 12, etc. Will this become one of our best DPS increasing buffs? It is obviously second to Crimson Familiar, but when fighting solo can it beat out Crimson Slow Time and Crimson Frost Nova? Does it help our burst to the extent that it beats out Indigo Energy Shield? These are questions I pose to all!
Your assumption that there will be a single enemy is a bad one IMO because it affects a lot of skills differently. For example, Meteor with Indigo is assumed to hit the enemy every time. This is fine if you are really thinking about a mob because you are looking at total potential damage. However, Meteor with Crimson will do your damage calculated to a good number of enemies in a mob. It only takes 3 enemies in the AoE to do roughly the same amount of damage. 4 puts you ahead by a good amount. If you actually do think about a single target, then Indigo will not strike every time. Let's say it strikes 4 times (which would be high IMO), you would be doing around 35k, which is less than meteor with crimson.
I think that it's good to look at some of this stuff, but I think potential damage against a single target is misleading your results.
The build you requested for your last simulation on the first post is impossible!
Passives work out, but actives do not:
Passive 1: Glass Cannon
Passive 2: Astral Presence
Passive 3: Conflagration
Active 1: Obsidian Magic Weapon
Active 2: Indigo Energy Armor (not sure if you prefer Golden Storm Armor)
Active 3: Crimson Familiar
Active 4: Crimson Slow Time
Active 5: Crimson Frost Nova
Active 6: Indigo Meteor ACTIVE 7: MAGIC MISSLE
ruh roh rooby roo...
Okay. Well when you make a post like this you come off as extremely condescending. It would be more constructive to simply state what you mean in the first place.
Come up with a build involving Magic Weapon that you want me to run the numbers on if you don't want to do it yourself. I'll swap out Familiar for MW in the build I posted later when I have time and run the numbers on that.
crimson (Bone Chill) Frost Nova 110% damage increased for 4 sec on a 12 sec cooldown
1.1*4/12 ~ 36.67% net damage increase w/o Evocation
1.1*4/9.6 ~ 45.83% net damage increase w/ Evocation
FN also deals 75% weapon damage and chills on hit.
This increase can be expected to add together with other general damage increasing debuffs (namely Time Warp and Conflagration), and multiply together with all other damage buffs.
crimson (Time Warp) Slow Time 140% damage increased for 10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown
1.4*10/30 ~ 46.67% net damage increase w/o Evocation
1.4*10/24 ~ 58.33% net damage increase w/ Evocation
ST also slows by 35%.
This increase can be expected to add together with other general damage increasing debuffs (namely Bone Chill and Conflagration), and multiply together with all other damage buffs.
In the case of resource-abundance, the alabaster (Stretch Time) Slow Time rune may have an equivalent or superior effect by increasing cast/attack rate by 140% (superior for the reason that creatures must enter the Slow Time field, whereas the caster, and possibly the caster's allies, will start in it immediately.)
crimson (Mirror Mimic) Mirror Image 70% x2 images of your damage for 15 sec on a 25 sec cooldown
0.7*2*15/25 ~ 84% net damage increase w/o Evocation
0.7*2*15/20 ~ 105% net damage increase w/ Evocation
This ought to be modified by how survivable they are expected to be, and how efficiently they will chain spells; assume they manage to do 1/2 as well as a player, and we modify these numbers to:
1/2*0.7*2*15/25 ~ 42% and 1/2*0.7*2*15/20 ~ 52.5%
This increase can be expected to multiply together with all other sources of damage increase.
Passive: Evocation
cooldowns reduced by 20%
This can be expected to add together with other cooldown reduction.
constant increases:
non-obsidianMagic Weapon 20% damage increase
Presumably, no other effects from this ability would carry into spells....
This can be expected to multiply with all damage increases except spell buffs to weapon damage.
obsidian (Force Weapon) Magic Weapon 34% damage increase
This can be expected to multiply with all damage increases except spell buffs to weapon damage.
crimson (Sparkflint) Familiar 40% damage increase
This can be expected to multiply together with all damage increases except spell buffs to general damage.
Passive: Glass Cannon 20% damage increase
This can be expected to multiply together with all other known forms of damage increase.
active attack skill debuffs:
crimson (Disruption) Arcane Torrent 120% damage increased from arcane spells for 6 sec
Also deals 200% weapon damage per second.
This can be expected to multiply together with all other known forms of damage increase.
Passive: Conflagration 15% damage increased for 3 sec
Results from any of the Wizard's fire damage (Meteor, Hydra, crimson Shock Pulse.)
This increase can be expected to add together with other general damage increasing debuffs (namely Bone Chill and Time Warp), and multiply together with all other damage buffs.
Bone Chill, Time Warp, and Conflagration should increase damage from sources other than the Wizard as well. If Magic Weapon does indeed apply its bonus to most spells, then there are 6 active and 2 passive skills (excluding Arcane Torrent, Conflagration, and Conflagration-activating fire spells) which increase damage directly. This is probably an unwieldy number of non-attacks to try and run in a build imo... let alone the lack of resource management.
Indigo Meteor is no way better than crimson... Did you add the 990% weapon dmg from the impact? Just take the best wand (think it has 156 attack on it).
I included Frost Nova in my 2 examples because it isn't a simple matter of adding 110% damage, it changes the rotations quite a bit.
Something like 40% from Familiar is on all the time, but Frost Nova requires planning and greatly increases burst damage.
You could also include it in your Arcane Torrent/Arcane twists. It won't be a simple "Add 110% at the end", you will have to work it out and come up with the rotation.
Indigo Meteor is no way better than crimson... Did you add the 990% weapon dmg from the impact? Just take the best wand (think it has 156 attack on it).
Did you take 292% and multiply it by 14? Cause that is the % weapon damage that Indigo Meteor does base.
Indigo Meteor is no way better than crimson... Did you add the 990% weapon dmg from the impact? Just take the best wand (think it has 156 attack on it).
Of course I did, did you look at the numbers? Indigo will always out damage any other Meteor rune assuming all 14 hit. Even if only half hit it's still better.
all of this means very little when we dont know the area effects and the average cluster ratio of enemies you would expect. for all we know, indigo meteor could have an area of 40ft with each meteor crashing randomly covering a 5ft radius. while crimson could cover 20ft and have no impact cooldown (have to wait for the spell to finish before you cast another). im pretty sure that most spells we are expecting to be op have a built in down side. In d2 how overpowered would orb have been if it had the same cast rate are fireball?
It is true that many of the calculations are somewhat pointless(yet fun) at this time. The calculator and items reflect what is currently in the game. It seems to me like they changed Wizard spells to weapon damage without much tinkering. Probably just converted it straight across without taking into account the current weapon damage.
Probably the single biggest even that pushed release back a month or two. They have to rebalance the entire system now
all of this means very little when we dont know the area effects and the average cluster ratio of enemies you would expect. for all we know, indigo meteor could have an area of 40ft with each meteor crashing randomly covering a 5ft radius. while crimson could cover 20ft and have no impact cooldown (have to wait for the spell to finish before you cast another). im pretty sure that most spells we are expecting to be op have a built in down side. In d2 how overpowered would orb have been if it had the same cast rate are fireball?
There are some actual videos showing Indigo Meteor and it falls in a pretty tight radius. I saw one where the Wizard used it on a door and they all went through the door. Old video though, so maybe the upped the radius and increased the meteor count.
uhhh, sorry, I'm only posting in regard to your Hydra scenario. I watched a couple videos, and another fellow DFan and I counted 18 missiles in 9 seconds.
Given how incomplete things are at this point in Beta (they just changed fixed damage to weapon damage, and there are several spells that haven't even been implemented/revealed yet) it seems nearly pointless to compute maximum DPS rotations. Everything will change before release.
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These are my general assumptions with each spell:
1). 1000 base damage to be modified by the spells.
2). 1 second cast time for non-channeled spells, channeled spells deal damage every 1 second.
3). 7 second time window. (This is for Arcane spells to get Arcane Torrent's 120% increased damage before it has to be recast. It also seems like a realistic time period to expect monsters to die in.)
4). I will take what I assume to be the highest damage rune for the spell. (Requests for other runes an option.)
5). Only 2 spells per rotation. No Passives or Utility spells. (For example adding Crimson Familiar to any build would effect it equally, no need to add it to calculations.) The primary reason for this assumption is to reduce complexity. My hope is that people can take the numbers I come up with, and use them in builds they want and modify them based on their other spells.
6). Any Arcane spell will be coupled with Crimson Arcane Torrent to maximize damage. For other spells I'll say what they're combo'd with.
7). For Crimson Disintegrate and Ray of Frost I'm assuming 0 charge up time. (Meaning their actual numbers would be slightly lower).
8). Each build will assume a single target and that everything hits. (Obviously this assumption may seem odd in certain cases, just remember that in Diablo you're very, very rarely ever going to be fighting single mobs meaning that in certain cases these numbers are a lot lower than they would be. Using a single target provides an excellent baseline for the spells damage.)
9). Base Wizard AP stats. (100 AP, 12.5 regen/sec)
10). For duration spells such as Hydra and Blizzard when they are cast I'm going to calculate their full duration damage.
Signature Spells:
Indigo Magic Missile: (Just to re-state, yes, I know you couldn't hit a single target with all 8 missiles. Just think of this as spamming Fork MM and hitting with every bolt).
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2000 damage.
2 - MM: 550 * 8 = 4,400 + 120% Crimson AT boost = 9,680.
3 - MM: 9,680 damage.
4 - MM: 9,680 damage.
5 - MM: 9,680 damage.
6 - MM: 9,680 damage.
7 - MM: 9,680 damage.
Total Damage = 60,080.
Crimson Shock Pulse:
1 - Shock Pulse: 1,950 * 3 = 5,850 damage.
2 - Shock Pulse: 5,850 damage.
3 - Shock Pulse: 5,850 damage.
4 - Shock Pulse: 5,850 damage.
5 - Shock Pulse: 5,850 damage.
6 - Shock Pulse: 5,850 damage.
7 - Shock Pulse: 5,850 damage.
Total Damage = 40,950.
Crimson Spectral Blade: (I'm assuming the bleed effect won't stack just refresh, if it does these numbers jump).
Special Case: I know I said no Utility spells, but anyone using Spectral Blade for damage will be using Magic Weapon as well. I'm going to assume Crimson Magic Weapon was cast before this rotation, and that the burn effect doesn't stack, just refreshes.
Base Damage 1000 +20% MW = 1200
1 - Spectral Blade: 420 * 3 = 5,850 damage + 540 bleed + 840 burn = 7,230 damage.
2 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
3 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
4 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
5 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
6 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
7 - Spectral Blade: 7,230 damage.
Total Damage = 50,610.
I'm going to skip Electrocute for now both because I'm not sure which rune to use and because we don't know if the damage is 1 - 150% weapon damage or just a flat 150%.
Offensive Spells:
Wave of Force - Cooldown too long to be used in this situation. As a side note, this belongs in Utility IMO.
Crimson Arcane Orb:
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2,000 damage.
2 - Arcane Orb: 4,950 + 120% Crimson AT boost = 10,890.
3 - Arcane Orb: 10,890 damage.
4 - Arcane Orb: 10,890 damage.
5 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
6 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
7 - Arcane Orb: 10,890 damage.
Total Damage = 45,560. (Higher regen or base AP will increase damage over 7 seconds).
Alabaster Energy Twister:
I used this in Electric's thread to try and show him Twister wasn't worthless. I picked Alabaster since it's very easy to understand the numbers on a singular stationary target. The key is to realize that each Twister lasts 7 - 10 seconds (not positive) and continues doing damage while it's active. A Crimson rune will do more damage assuming the Twister is always hitting something while it moves, I can do the numbers for it if someone wants. Keep in mind each Twister can hit multiple enemies as well. The need to stop for 2 seconds due to AP cuts back on the damage on this build, with other spells and passives to help offset this you can see it can do non-negligable damage (It WILL pass Disintegrate in damage).
With the duration modification this spell works slightly differently since we can't assume each twister will get +120% damage from Torrent for it's full duration. Of all the duration modifications, this spell is the least accurate since a recast of Torrent will greatly increase this spells damage.
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2,000 damage.
2 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 6 second duration + 840 * 1 remaining second = 11,928 damage.
3 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 5 second duration + 840 * 2 remaining seconds = 10,920 damage.
4 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 4 second duration + 840 * 3 remaining seconds = 9,912 damage.
5 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
6 - (AP Regen): 0 damage.
7 - Energy Twister: 840 damage +120% arcane = 1,848 damage * 1 seconds duration + 840 * 6 remaining seconds = 6,888 damage.
Total Damage = 39,648.
Crimson Disintegrate:
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2,000 damage.
2 - Disintegrate: 7,260 damage.
3 - Disintegrate: 7,260 damage.
4 - Disintegrate: 7,260 damage.
5 - Disintegrate: 7,260 damage.
6 - Disintegrate: 7,260 damage.
7 - Disintegrate: 7,260 damage.
Total Damage = 45,560.
Alabaster Explosive Blast:
I'm going to assume that like Crimson the delay is removed for this rune since it will take time for all 8 explosions to go off.
1 - Explosive Blast: 910 * 8 = 7,280 damage.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Explosive Blast: 7,280 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Explosive Blast: 7,280 damage.
6 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
7 - Explosive Blast: 7,280 damage.
Total Damage = 32,420.
Hydra - I was going to skip this since we don't know how fast the heads attack, but I'll assume once a second. Alabaster combo'd with Crimson Torrent would be top damage, we need AP regen though, and with the 2 spell limit I'm going to go with Indigo.
Indigo Hydra:
1 - Hydra: 880 damage * 3 heads = 2,640 damage * 9 second duration = 23,760.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Hydra: 23,760 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
6 - Hydra: 23,760 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 75,680.
Crimson Ray of Frost:
1 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
2 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
3 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
4 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
5 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
6 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 44,000.
Crimson Arcane Torrent:
1 - Arcane Torrent: 2,000 damage.
2 - Arcane Torrent: 4,400 damage.
3 - Arcane Torrent: 4,400 damage.
4 - Arcane Torrent: 4,400 damage.
5 - Arcane Torrent: 4,400 damage.
6 - Arcane Torrent: 4,400 damage.
7 - Arcane Torrent: 4,400 damage.
Total Damage = 28,400.
Indigo Meteor:
1 - Meteor: 2,920 * 14 = 40,880 damage.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Meteor: 40,880 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
6 - Meteor: 40,880 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 127,040. HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Crimson Meteor:
The burn effect afterwards states 143% OVER 3 seconds not per second over 3 seconds. This is a very low number and hopefully a mistake. I'm going with it here though.
1 - Meteor: 9,900 damage + 1430 damage over 3 seconds = 11,330 damage.
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
3 - Meteor: 11,330 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
6 - Meteor: 11,330 damage.
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
Total Damage = 38,390.
Indigo Blizzard:
1 - Blizzard: 3,000 damage/sec * 3 seconds = 9000 damage.
2 - Blizzard: 9,000 damage.
3 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
5 - Blizzard: 9,000 damage.
6 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage.
7 - Blizzard: 9,000 damage.
Total Damage = 39,300.
And now in ranking from most to least damage:
(Keep in mind this is single target damage over 7 seconds)
Indigo Meteor - 127,040
Indigo Hydra - 75,680
Indigo Magic Missile - 60,080
Crimson Spectral Blade - 50,610
Crimson Arcane Orb - 45,560
Crimson Disintegrate - 45,560
Crimson Ray of Frost - 44,000
Crimson Shock Pulse - 40,950
Alabaster Energy Twister - 39,648
Indigo Blizzard - 39,300
Crimson Meteor - 38,390
Alabaster Explosive Blast - 32,420
Crimson Arcane Torrent - 28,400
Things I'm taking away from all this:
Indigo Meteor is godly. (As I've been stating over and over.)
Signature Spell spamming is shockingly effective. A Crimson Torrent + Indigo MM could work very well as a build.
Melee Wizards seem 100% viable.
Even needing to recast Crimson Torrent, Crimson Disintegrate seems to always be better than Crimson Ray of Frost (minus the slowing effect).
Arcane Torrent + Arcane Orb does much more damage than Arcane Torrent + Disintegrate assuming enough base AP and AP regen.
Keep in mind this is very limited, relatively un-realistic testing. My goal with this post was to at least help people get an idea of the damage of these spells over a short period of time unassisted by other spells that will only make them even more effective.
I really hope this is at least a bit helpful and I didn't just completely waste a ton of time. If people have better ideas of how to run this test or want other spell/rune combos let me know.
FULL BUILDS:
Rules:
1). Since we don't know much about Crimson Mirror Image don't include it for now. Armor Spells, Magic Weapon, and Familiar are in effect before your 7 seconds start, but nothing else. (Assuming you have them in your build.) In the case of Magic Weapon's 20% damage boost apply that to the 1000 base damage first, so you get 1,200 base damage. Then calculate base spell damage from that number.
2). All the assumptions from the above section are true minus spell limitations.
3). Since we don't know how Blizzard is going to apply % damage increases combine your percentages into one and apply that. (Familiar + Slow Time = 40% + 140% = 180%). As long as everyone follows the same method the numbers will be fair even if that's not how Blizz ends up doing it.
4). Need a link to the full build. Credit will of course be given to whoever posts the build.
5). Don't forget about AP!!!!
Indigo Meteor Build: (ArcaneWeapon)
1 - Slow Time: 0 damage.
2 - Frost Nova: 750 damage.
3 - Meteor: 2920 +310% (Familiar, Slow Time, Frost Nova, Glass Cannon) = 11,972 for first meteor which applies Conflagration, 2920 + 325% (old 310% + 15% from Conflagration) = 12,410 * 13 remaining meteors = 161,330 damage + 1st meteor = 173,320 damage.
4 - Meteor: 12,410 * 14 = 173,740 damage.
5 - Meteor: 2920 + 215% (I'm not going to include Frost Nova anymore) = 9,198 * 14 = 128,772 damage.
6 - Magic Missile: 1,100 damage + 200% (Familiar, Slow Time, Glass Cannon) = 3,300 damage.
7 - Magic Missile: 3,300 damage.
Total Damage = 483,164.
EDIT1: Changed Blizzard, Hydra, Crimson Meteor, and Energy Twister to more accurately reflect their damage.
EDIT2: Added the Full Build section!
Let me add a couple(with Frost Nova):
Crimson Ray of Frost:
1 - Crimson Frost Nova: 750 damage.
2 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
3 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
4 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
5 - Ray of Frost: 15,015 damage.
6 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage.
7 - Ray of Frost: 7,150 damage
Total Damage = 75,110.
Indigo Meteor:
1 - Crimson Frost Nova: 750
2 - Meteor: 2,920 * 14 = 85,848 damage.
3 - 0 damage.
4 - 0 damage.
5 - Meteor: 2,920 * 14 = 85,848 damage.
6 - 0 damage.
7 - 0 damage.
Total Damage = 172,446.
1) Why 1000 base damage? (as opposed to say 100?) Is it for ease of calculation? Just trying to get a sense for the calculations and basis for comparisons.
5) Its a good start I think. However, a little limiting but I see the need for rules to follow.
For example, Procylon's use of Frost Nova (a utility) should be excluded because it is (1) a utility and given the time frame of 7 seconds, an excellent way to increase dmg by 110% for 4 seconds and applies to all damage spells.
Where do we go from here. Folks will inevitably want to start creating builds/combos, with more than just 2 spells and will want to add utility/passives. What rules should be restrict ourselves to?
I think a better assumption for Hydra is 1 attack/head/sec, so 3/sec for the Hydra overall (a substantial shift.) Golden (Brimstone) Hydra, which summons a single-headed Hydra that throws firewalls is the only one with what I expect to be a different (1/3) attack speed, but that one's damage in not yet calculable since we don't know the duration of the firewalls (although we could assume a duration and see what it's damage is then.)
We know the charge time for Ray of Frost, but not for Disintegrate, so comparing them to each other (or Disintegrate to anything) is going to be rather difficult.
Frost Nova can be used with anything unless freeze/chill effects are ended by non-frost damage.
Some of the spells (Hydra and Blizzard) receive crippled damage estimates within a 7-sec window, since they have short cast times but long durations. I would suggest assuming their full damage period's worth of damage simply applied within the assumed 1-sec cast time (in effect, this is equivalent to the real damage model for a sustained steady-state fight.)
Everything will do more damage with Crimson Frost Nova. Crimson Slow Time can be applied to everything here for 140% increased damage since it lasts 10 seconds and you could assume it was cast before the 7 seconds rotation. I can't edit these numbers into my original post since I'm not taking Utility spells into account for this base level of getting numbers.
Make a full build (6 actives, 3 passives) if you want to test with other spells and we'll get a section going for those.
The base number is completely irrelevant since all the spells use the same one. It isn't the end damage number that maters, it's how the spells end up relating to each other. 1000 is just a very easy number to do initial percents on. (292% is 2920)
Yes, Crimson Frost Nova or Crimson Slow Time are both excellent damage increases. The way I viewed it is that anyone planning on using an arcane spell as their primary damage will always be using Crimson Arcane Torrent to maximize their damage. In the case of utility spells they can be included in any build depending on the players preference.
The primary point of this post was to indicate while there may be some clear leaders in damage spells, everything should be viable since most of the spells are in the same damage range. Although Torrent on it's own is shockingly ineffective.
From here you can make a full build of 6 actives and 3 passives and run it over an optimal single target 7 seconds and compare it to another. If you post the 2 builds I can run the numbers, just remember that we don't know how some stuff works (Crimson Mirror Image).
Unfortunately that was how I ran the Hydra damage. (Sorry I wasn't clear enough.) I'll go over it in a bit more detail:
Indigo Hydra:
1 - Hydra: 880 damage * 3 heads = 2,640 damage. (880 damage per head, 3 heads, is 2,640 damage a second)
2 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 damage + 2,640 = 3190 damage. (Magic missile damage + damage from the Hydra you cast last second)
3 - Hydra: 5,280 damage. (2 hydras, 6 heads) (Now there's 2 hydras so 2,640 * 2)
4 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 + 5,280 = 5,830 damage. (MM + 2 hydras dps)
5 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 + 5,280 = 5,830 damage. (MM + 2 hydras dps)
6 - Hydra: 7,920 damage. (3 hydras, 9 heads) (3 hydras means 2,640 * 3)
7 - Golden Magic Missile: 1,100 + 7,920 = 8,470 damage. (MM + 3 hydras dps)
Total Damage = 41,360.
You are right about the duration spells, and I feel it's a valid enough point that I'm going to go back and modify how I record them just like you mentioned. On CAST I'm going to assume the spell does its full, maximum duration damage. So Indigo Hydra would do 880 damage per head * 3 heads * 9 seconds = 23,760.
Passives work out, but actives do not:
Passive 1: Glass Cannon
Passive 2: Astral Presence
Passive 3: Conflagration
Active 1: Obsidian Magic Weapon
Active 2: Indigo Energy Armor (not sure if you prefer Golden Storm Armor)
Active 3: Crimson Familiar
Active 4: Crimson Slow Time
Active 5: Crimson Frost Nova
Active 6: Indigo Meteor
ACTIVE 7: MAGIC MISSLE
ruh roh rooby roo...
What? There's a link to the build and I never said anything about Magic Weapon......
Right.... I asked people to post their builds if they wanted to compare numbers to other builds. I don't want to just post a ton of builds, community contribution would be nice.
I posted a build. The numbers I calculate are only using the spells in the link to the build.
I state that you can assume Armor spells, Familiar, and Magic Weapon are cast before the 7 second window so you don't have to waste time casting them in your calculations.
So with the build I posted instead of going:
1 - Energy Armor: 0 damage.
2 - Familiar: 0 damage.
3 - Slow Time: 0 damage.
4 - Frost Nova: 750 damage.
etc....
I'm assuming that I've already cast Energy Armor and Familiar. IF my build had Magic Weapon (which it doesn't) I would assume that it had been cast before hand as well.
Does that make sense?
Hey guys! We have an extra buff to our damage through Magic Weapon! I believe this should be taken into consideration, as you will only need to cast it every 60 seconds instead of Frost Nova every 12, etc. Will this become one of our best DPS increasing buffs? It is obviously second to Crimson Familiar, but when fighting solo can it beat out Crimson Slow Time and Crimson Frost Nova? Does it help our burst to the extent that it beats out Indigo Energy Shield? These are questions I pose to all!
I think that it's good to look at some of this stuff, but I think potential damage against a single target is misleading your results.
Okay. Well when you make a post like this you come off as extremely condescending. It would be more constructive to simply state what you mean in the first place.
Come up with a build involving Magic Weapon that you want me to run the numbers on if you don't want to do it yourself. I'll swap out Familiar for MW in the build I posted later when I have time and run the numbers on that.
with cooldowns:
crimson (Bone Chill) Frost Nova
110% damage increased for 4 sec on a 12 sec cooldown
1.1*4/12 ~ 36.67% net damage increase w/o Evocation
1.1*4/9.6 ~ 45.83% net damage increase w/ Evocation
FN also deals 75% weapon damage and chills on hit.
This increase can be expected to add together with other general damage increasing debuffs (namely Time Warp and Conflagration), and multiply together with all other damage buffs.
crimson (Time Warp) Slow Time
140% damage increased for 10 sec on a 30 sec cooldown
1.4*10/30 ~ 46.67% net damage increase w/o Evocation
1.4*10/24 ~ 58.33% net damage increase w/ Evocation
ST also slows by 35%.
This increase can be expected to add together with other general damage increasing debuffs (namely Bone Chill and Conflagration), and multiply together with all other damage buffs.
In the case of resource-abundance, the alabaster (Stretch Time) Slow Time rune may have an equivalent or superior effect by increasing cast/attack rate by 140% (superior for the reason that creatures must enter the Slow Time field, whereas the caster, and possibly the caster's allies, will start in it immediately.)
crimson (Mirror Mimic) Mirror Image
70% x2 images of your damage for 15 sec on a 25 sec cooldown
0.7*2*15/25 ~ 84% net damage increase w/o Evocation
0.7*2*15/20 ~ 105% net damage increase w/ Evocation
This ought to be modified by how survivable they are expected to be, and how efficiently they will chain spells; assume they manage to do 1/2 as well as a player, and we modify these numbers to:
1/2*0.7*2*15/25 ~ 42% and 1/2*0.7*2*15/20 ~ 52.5%
This increase can be expected to multiply together with all other sources of damage increase.
Passive: Evocation
cooldowns reduced by 20%
This can be expected to add together with other cooldown reduction.
constant increases:
non-obsidian Magic Weapon
20% damage increase
Presumably, no other effects from this ability would carry into spells....
This can be expected to multiply with all damage increases except spell buffs to weapon damage.
obsidian (Force Weapon) Magic Weapon
34% damage increase
This can be expected to multiply with all damage increases except spell buffs to weapon damage.
crimson (Sparkflint) Familiar
40% damage increase
This can be expected to multiply together with all damage increases except spell buffs to general damage.
Passive: Glass Cannon
20% damage increase
This can be expected to multiply together with all other known forms of damage increase.
active attack skill debuffs:
crimson (Disruption) Arcane Torrent
120% damage increased from arcane spells for 6 sec
Also deals 200% weapon damage per second.
This can be expected to multiply together with all other known forms of damage increase.
Passive: Conflagration
15% damage increased for 3 sec
Results from any of the Wizard's fire damage (Meteor, Hydra, crimson Shock Pulse.)
This increase can be expected to add together with other general damage increasing debuffs (namely Bone Chill and Time Warp), and multiply together with all other damage buffs.
Bone Chill, Time Warp, and Conflagration should increase damage from sources other than the Wizard as well. If Magic Weapon does indeed apply its bonus to most spells, then there are 6 active and 2 passive skills (excluding Arcane Torrent, Conflagration, and Conflagration-activating fire spells) which increase damage directly. This is probably an unwieldy number of non-attacks to try and run in a build imo... let alone the lack of resource management.
Something like 40% from Familiar is on all the time, but Frost Nova requires planning and greatly increases burst damage.
You could also include it in your Arcane Torrent/Arcane twists. It won't be a simple "Add 110% at the end", you will have to work it out and come up with the rotation.
Did you take 292% and multiply it by 14? Cause that is the % weapon damage that Indigo Meteor does base.
Of course I did, did you look at the numbers? Indigo will always out damage any other Meteor rune assuming all 14 hit. Even if only half hit it's still better.
Probably the single biggest even that pushed release back a month or two. They have to rebalance the entire system now
There are some actual videos showing Indigo Meteor and it falls in a pretty tight radius. I saw one where the Wizard used it on a door and they all went through the door. Old video though, so maybe the upped the radius and increased the meteor count.
Thats 2/sec