by stating what the christans ive met beleive im disproving anything you said about the generalization of their belief. i never said i knew what they generally believed like you so ignorantly did, i was just pointing out how your wrong.
i was using that as a metaphor, not literal. lol... god created us and gave us free will, and by doing stuff to us he is essentially taking that away briefly each time he "does something" or if "everything happens for a reason" hes constantly doing stuff therefor there is NO free will. in the metaphor i used lets say the police is god, and the police originally gave you the right to walk on the street, then they said, nahh not anymore. there taking away your rights they gave you. just like if god impeded on your free will by effecting your life.
if you think "moving arms and legs" is your entire free will then i feel very sorry for you, lmao. free will is having the right to choose your own path in life without god directing it. if ultimately god has a "plan" then all your doing is making the choices god wanted you to make therefor its not free will. free will is choosing any path wither its to be a murderer or father or bum or anything. you are your own master, no one controls you.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
idk, that whole noah's ark thing sounds like "sending extreme weathers" to me. but im no bible scholar.
I specifically stated Catholics/Christians not Judaism, Islam, and the like.
Plus at the end of that story God vowed not to initiate any such event ever again.
a christian also includes the old testament. unless catholic bibles dont.
and then theres that whole Revelations thing with the seals and such...
No the Bible includes both Old and New Testament. But due to the New Testament being about Jesus, and the New Testament coming after the Old Testament, and the fact that Catholicism/Christianity is based on Jesus' teachings... in short the New Testament usually overrides the Old Testament in Catholicism/Christianity.
so, Christians do not follow the 10 commandments? i was raised christian and we read the old as much as the new.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
so, Christians do not follow the 10 commandments? i was raised christian and we read the old as much as the new.
Depends on on the denomination. Some believe the old testament (10 commandments and all) are cast aside by the teaching of Jesus. Some of them grandfather in the old testament laws as supported by the teachings of Jesus. There aren't really that many of the former though and the latter is so riddled with inconsistency that it's hard to really pin down what is and isn't a carry-over.
by stating what the christans ive met beleive im disproving anything you said about the generalization of their belief. i never said i knew what they generally believed like you so ignorantly did, i was just pointing out how your wrong.
i was using that as a metaphor, not literal. lol... god created us and gave us free will, and by doing stuff to us he is essentially taking that away briefly each time he "does something" or if "everything happens for a reason" hes constantly doing stuff therefor there is NO free will. in the metaphor i used lets say the police is god, and the police originally gave you the right to walk on the street, then they said, nahh not anymore. there taking away your rights they gave you. just like if god impeded on your free will by effecting your life.
if you think "moving arms and legs" is your entire free will then i feel very sorry for you, lmao. free will is having the right to choose your own path in life without god directing it. if ultimately god has a "plan" then all your doing is making the choices god wanted you to make therefor its not free will. free will is choosing any path wither its to be a murderer or father or bum or anything. you are your own master, no one controls you.
You're still not understanding how free will works.
Everyone has free will, we both agree on this.
Free will is the ability to make conscious decisions or voluntary decisions. If another person uses free will to harm or constrain you this does not override your free will. If someone points a gun at me and tells me not to move or I'll die, I still have free will in deciding to move or not. Sure one choice wouldn't be the most prudent one but I still have the option to do so.
Let's go back to the police/citizen example. If the police arrest me and I'm pinned down to be handcuffed, I still possess free will in deciding whether to fight back defensively (IE move around alot) or just stay still and wait to be handcuffed.
You're still not understanding how free will works.
Everyone has free will, we both agree on this.
Free will is the ability to make conscious decisions or voluntary decisions. If another person uses free will to harm or constrain you this does not override your free will. If someone points a gun at me and tells me not to move or I'll die, I still have free will in deciding to move or not. Sure one choice wouldn't be the most prudent one but I still have the option to do so.
Let's go back to the police/citizen example. If the police arrest me and I'm pinned down to be handcuffed, I still possess free will in deciding whether to fight back defensively (IE move around alot) or just stay still and wait to be handcuffed.
Free will is constant not variable.
put it this way
so God is: omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent.
if he truly is omnipotent and omnipresent, then there is no such thing as free will. everything is decided by fate, because he knows what will happen and has the power to change it on a whim or for some greater purpose.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
so God is: omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent.
if he truly is omnipotent and omnipresent, then there is no such thing as free will. everything is decided by fate, because he knows what will happen and has the power to change it on a whim or for some greater purpose.
this.
thank you, i was having a hard time explaining it to him, lol.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
You're still not understanding how free will works.
Everyone has free will, we both agree on this.
Free will is the ability to make conscious decisions or voluntary decisions. If another person uses free will to harm or constrain you this does not override your free will. If someone points a gun at me and tells me not to move or I'll die, I still have free will in deciding to move or not. Sure one choice wouldn't be the most prudent one but I still have the option to do so.
Let's go back to the police/citizen example. If the police arrest me and I'm pinned down to be handcuffed, I still possess free will in deciding whether to fight back defensively (IE move around alot) or just stay still and wait to be handcuffed.
Free will is constant not variable.
i know how free will works. you clearly dont lol.
what apples said + were talking about GOD, not another human being with free will. your creator, not another creation. completely different.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
idk, that whole noah's ark thing sounds like "sending extreme weathers" to me. but im no bible scholar.
I specifically stated Catholics/Christians not Judaism, Islam, and the like.
Plus at the end of that story God vowed not to initiate any such event ever again.
a christian also includes the old testament. unless catholic bibles dont.
and then theres that whole Revelations thing with the seals and such...
No the Bible includes both Old and New Testament. But due to the New Testament being about Jesus, and the New Testament coming after the Old Testament, and the fact that Catholicism/Christianity is based on Jesus' teachings... in short the New Testament usually overrides the Old Testament in Catholicism/Christianity.
The Old Testament, from the Christians I've met, is treated as a history book. "The Flood happened, and everything was wiped off the planet except an old man, his wife, and his three sons." This is viewed as fact, because it's in the Old Testament. They don't view the "laws" as laws anymore (Except to hate gays, that's still a law. You know how it goes.) but they do view the "history" as true.
so God is: omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent.
if he truly is omnipotent and omnipresent, then there is no such thing as free will. everything is decided by fate, because he knows what will happen and has the power to change it on a whim or for some greater purpose.
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
what apples said + were talking about GOD, not another human being with free will. your creator, not another creation. completely different.
You brought up the example of associating "free will" with "free rights" thus bringing in the variable of another human being with free will, not just God/Human relationship.
Also I'd appreciate it if you strengthen your own arguments instead of "piggy-back riding" onto others. It's really annoying and makes this discourse seem, well frankly stupid if you can't support your own stance by yourself.
someone else pointed out a good point on what i was trying to get through to you, so obviously im going to praise what they said. der.
what you replied to apples is complete non-sense and your talking out your ass now. its ok to admit your wrong you know? lol.
this is VERY simple and you dont get it:
either: A. god controls everything and there is no free will and everything DOES happen for a reason, or B. god controls nothing and free will exists and everything is random (real life)
either of those intersecting contradicts itself and cannot co-exist. period.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
this will be the 5th time? this has been explained to ana, but he is apparently very thick headed and continues to argue. ive explained it so many ways im done. the simple way you put it is nice. and i dont see how he could possibly argue back. but im sure he will... <_<
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
I don't see the reasoning behind this, if anyone is to follow a plan they would have to know that the plan consists of AKA telling them what to do. What I see in Catholicism/Christianity is that they know God has a grand plan (as told by Jesus) said plan will be beneficial to all (IE getting into Heaven). Anything beyond this is all speculation and teachings from Jesus.
this will be the 5th time? this has been explained to ana, but he is apparently very thick headed and continues to argue. ive explained it so many ways im done. the simple way you put it is nice. and i dont see how he could possibly argue back. but im sure he will... <_<
I argue to gain knowledge. This is why I prefer people back up there own opinions/arguments by themselves so the discourse can be mutually beneficial to all parties involved. If one party decides to piggyback upon another there is no benefit to either party as it will become a stale argument of repetition of points.
And 'sides, the purpose of a forum is to read and express opinions no?
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
I don't see the reasoning behind this, if anyone is to follow a plan they would have to know that the plan consists of AKA telling them what to do. What I see in Catholicism/Christianity is that they know God has a grand plan (as told by Jesus) said plan will be beneficial to all (IE getting into Heaven). Anything beyond this is all speculation and teachings from Jesus.
And nice to see you again Link
So...they know it's a plan..and that it's a really swell, awesome plan...but they don't know what the plan is...and thus cannot follow said plan...
So, considering nobody knows what the plan is, and thus cannot follow the plan, the plan is completely and utterly useless? That sounds...very religious...
And thanks, nice to see you too Anathemic.
(Now people realize why I didn't apply for modship again, I like to disappear! Lol.)
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
I don't see the reasoning behind this, if anyone is to follow a plan they would have to know that the plan consists of AKA telling them what to do. What I see in Catholicism/Christianity is that they know God has a grand plan (as told by Jesus) said plan will be beneficial to all (IE getting into Heaven). Anything beyond this is all speculation and teachings from Jesus.
And nice to see you again Link
So...they know it's a plan..and that it's a really swell, awesome plan...but they don't know what the plan is...and thus cannot follow said plan...
So, considering nobody knows what the plan is, and thus cannot follow the plan, the plan is completely and utterly useless? That sounds...very religious...
And thanks, nice to see you too Anathemic.
(Now people realize why I didn't apply for modship again, I like to disappear! Lol.)
Yes you have the gist of it, this is part of the Catholic/Christian faith.
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
I don't see the reasoning behind this, if anyone is to follow a plan they would have to know that the plan consists of AKA telling them what to do. What I see in Catholicism/Christianity is that they know God has a grand plan (as told by Jesus) said plan will be beneficial to all (IE getting into Heaven). Anything beyond this is all speculation and teachings from Jesus.
And nice to see you again Link
So...they know it's a plan..and that it's a really swell, awesome plan...but they don't know what the plan is...and thus cannot follow said plan...
So, considering nobody knows what the plan is, and thus cannot follow the plan, the plan is completely and utterly useless? That sounds...very religious...
And thanks, nice to see you too Anathemic.
(Now people realize why I didn't apply for modship again, I like to disappear! Lol.)
Yes you have the gist of it, this is part of the Catholic/Christian faith.
So then A) There is an awesome, amazing plan that nobody is following or We have no free will?
This is part of the reason the Christian faith annoys me...
Edit:
Those sunglasses emoticons are supposed to be B ) not actual emoticons...
Presumably we don't have to know, it's just designed to unfold.
Unfortunately, that's a fairly hard nail in the coffin of free-will. If everything operates on predetermined parameters, nobody is actually choosing to do anything and only exudes the illusion of free will as they "choose," the programmed response each and every time.
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i was using that as a metaphor, not literal. lol... god created us and gave us free will, and by doing stuff to us he is essentially taking that away briefly each time he "does something" or if "everything happens for a reason" hes constantly doing stuff therefor there is NO free will. in the metaphor i used lets say the police is god, and the police originally gave you the right to walk on the street, then they said, nahh not anymore. there taking away your rights they gave you. just like if god impeded on your free will by effecting your life.
if you think "moving arms and legs" is your entire free will then i feel very sorry for you, lmao. free will is having the right to choose your own path in life without god directing it. if ultimately god has a "plan" then all your doing is making the choices god wanted you to make therefor its not free will. free will is choosing any path wither its to be a murderer or father or bum or anything. you are your own master, no one controls you.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Depends on on the denomination. Some believe the old testament (10 commandments and all) are cast aside by the teaching of Jesus. Some of them grandfather in the old testament laws as supported by the teachings of Jesus. There aren't really that many of the former though and the latter is so riddled with inconsistency that it's hard to really pin down what is and isn't a carry-over.
You're still not understanding how free will works.
Everyone has free will, we both agree on this.
Free will is the ability to make conscious decisions or voluntary decisions. If another person uses free will to harm or constrain you this does not override your free will. If someone points a gun at me and tells me not to move or I'll die, I still have free will in deciding to move or not. Sure one choice wouldn't be the most prudent one but I still have the option to do so.
Let's go back to the police/citizen example. If the police arrest me and I'm pinned down to be handcuffed, I still possess free will in deciding whether to fight back defensively (IE move around alot) or just stay still and wait to be handcuffed.
Free will is constant not variable.
so God is: omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent.
if he truly is omnipotent and omnipresent, then there is no such thing as free will. everything is decided by fate, because he knows what will happen and has the power to change it on a whim or for some greater purpose.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
this.
thank you, i was having a hard time explaining it to him, lol.
i know how free will works. you clearly dont lol.
what apples said + were talking about GOD, not another human being with free will. your creator, not another creation. completely different.
The Old Testament, from the Christians I've met, is treated as a history book. "The Flood happened, and everything was wiped off the planet except an old man, his wife, and his three sons." This is viewed as fact, because it's in the Old Testament. They don't view the "laws" as laws anymore (Except to hate gays, that's still a law. You know how it goes.) but they do view the "history" as true.
Omnipotence and omnipresence have no affect on "fate" I believe the term your looking for is beneficence which deems God will use said omnipotence and omnipresence to care for his creations yes?
Going more into your point, Catholics/Christians deem that God has a "Grand Plan" for everything, there is no dispute to this. They believe even though he shows apathy today, even though he's omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent, everything still is in accordance with his "Grand Plan." Basically, God knows all but he doesn't dictate what people do in how they die. If a person dies by lightning bolt God knows, if that same person instead gets shot by a gun God knows. This is what Catholics/Christians refer to as "God cannot be understood by mere humans/mortals."
You brought up the example of associating "free will" with "free rights" thus bringing in the variable of another human being with free will, not just God/Human relationship.
Also I'd appreciate it if you strengthen your own arguments instead of "piggy-back riding" onto others. It's really annoying and makes this discourse seem, well frankly stupid if you can't support your own stance by yourself.
what you replied to apples is complete non-sense and your talking out your ass now. its ok to admit your wrong you know? lol.
this is VERY simple and you dont get it:
either: A. god controls everything and there is no free will and everything DOES happen for a reason, or B. god controls nothing and free will exists and everything is random (real life)
either of those intersecting contradicts itself and cannot co-exist. period.
If god had a grand plan, then either A) we would have to know about it to follow it or we have no free will.
This is also an issue I have with prayer. Why do christians pray and then say that it's god's plan? If it was his plan, and if he worked hard and came up with a good plan, then you prayed, you just fucked up his perfectly good plan. Either that or you were ignored. Either way, somebody is getting shafted, either you or god.
That second part is just me ranting, you can ignore it if you want.
this will be the 5th time? this has been explained to ana, but he is apparently very thick headed and continues to argue. ive explained it so many ways im done. the simple way you put it is nice. and i dont see how he could possibly argue back. but im sure he will... <_<
I don't see the reasoning behind this, if anyone is to follow a plan they would have to know that the plan consists of AKA telling them what to do. What I see in Catholicism/Christianity is that they know God has a grand plan (as told by Jesus) said plan will be beneficial to all (IE getting into Heaven). Anything beyond this is all speculation and teachings from Jesus.
And nice to see you again Link
I argue to gain knowledge. This is why I prefer people back up there own opinions/arguments by themselves so the discourse can be mutually beneficial to all parties involved. If one party decides to piggyback upon another there is no benefit to either party as it will become a stale argument of repetition of points.
And 'sides, the purpose of a forum is to read and express opinions no?
So...they know it's a plan..and that it's a really swell, awesome plan...but they don't know what the plan is...and thus cannot follow said plan...
So, considering nobody knows what the plan is, and thus cannot follow the plan, the plan is completely and utterly useless? That sounds...very religious...
And thanks, nice to see you too Anathemic.
(Now people realize why I didn't apply for modship again, I like to disappear! Lol.)
Yes you have the gist of it, this is part of the Catholic/Christian faith.
So then A) There is an awesome, amazing plan that nobody is following or We have no free will?
This is part of the reason the Christian faith annoys me...
Edit:
Those sunglasses emoticons are supposed to be B ) not actual emoticons...
Haha the A) option
Then why is there a plan if nobody knows what it is?...
Unfortunately, that's a fairly hard nail in the coffin of free-will. If everything operates on predetermined parameters, nobody is actually choosing to do anything and only exudes the illusion of free will as they "choose," the programmed response each and every time.