@Jamoose So you say when you increase 100% damage with 500% you still get 500%? Explain how. You cant explain that. I used example where you buff 0% damage by 500% just to show you that you are wrong. I talked about gear for GR and not for trials if that is not obvious then I don't know what is.

This "With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon" is simply wrong. Where do you get that information from? And no, in trials with 0dog you don't run out of hatred and no elite damage in trials is useless. 0dog does not spawn more or less globes when fighting an RG so no, that's not true. the stat priority between ias, ad, ed, rcr on wepaon / gloves or whatever, is different for various setups. For 2 players (wd + dh) i found that you still need quite a lot of rcr. For 4 player groups (wd+crus+2dh) you can totally give up on rcr and rely only on the health globes. For any other setup that doesn't involve 0dog, you want as much rcr as possible.

My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.

@Jamoose So you say when you increase 100% damage with 500% you still get 500%? Explain how. You cant explain that. I used example where you buff 0% damage by 500% just to show you that you are wrong. I talked about gear for GR and not for trials if that is not obvious then I don't know what is.

[quote]This "With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon" is simply wrong. Where do you get that information from? And no, in trials with 0dog you don't run out of hatred and no elite damage in trials is useless. 0dog does not spawn more or less globes when fighting an RG so no, that's not true. the stat priority between ias, ad, ed, rcr on wepaon / gloves or whatever, is different for various setups. For 2 players (wd + dh) i found that you still need quite a lot of rcr. For 4 player groups (wd+crus+2dh) you can totally give up on rcr and rely only on the health globes. For any other setup that doesn't involve 0dog, you want as much rcr as possible.

My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.

------------

One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%.

"almost no one has that" is irrelevant, i was talking about a specific setup and with that setup, you don't run out of hatred in trials, period. I tried it, i got high keys with it and i also tried non 0dog trials and also got high keys with it. 58 was highest without 0dog iirc... didn't do enough trials with 0dog to see if we can break 58 tbh.

This: "0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR" is simply false.

My arguments are 100% valid and i'm talking from self experience. I am not top whatever in solo but i do have high gr clears in groups and on most classes over 40 in solo. Anyway "if you did not know" you can use wd in trials.

Just to add I made Excel spreadsheet for sentry damage clculation before patch. What I did was: record game play and play it over and over again 100 times. Then I get same numbers I see in video in my excel calculator. That was my main source of information. I spent about one week to figure out what type of buffs are additive and multiplicative. So I think I have good knowledge about basic game mechanics. How much time did you spent on research?

Just to add I made Excel spreadsheet for sentry damage clculation before patch. What I did was: record game play and play it over and over again 100 times. Then I get same numbers I see in video in my excel calculator. That was my main source of information. I spent about one week to figure out what type of buffs are additive and multiplicative. So I think I have good knowledge about basic game mechanics. How much time did you spent on research?

I can't say i spent time on research so to speak but i read forums and discuss with friends. I also play all classes so i'm not the most knowledgable in one specific class (especially not the dh). But that has nothing to do with this. I am telling you that you get 0 hatred issues in trials with a 0dog in group if done right. I tried it and it works, tell me i'm wrong now?

With 1 sentry up you have 200%, when it is 5 you have 600%, with 15% sentry damage you have 500*1.15+100= 675% damage

I wrote: "One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%." and it's the exact same thing. The damage increment is 500%.

TL;DR As you can see 15% sentry dmg on shoulders only does more dmg if its 2 or bellow targets

Maths on area dmg vs sentry dmg on shoulders

This was calculated as if Cluster arrow were to do 10 dmg

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%
if 10 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 2251.85
2 procs = 2799.95
3 procs = 3348.05
4 procs = 3896.15
5 procs = 4444.25
6 procs = 4992.35
7 procs = 5540.45
8 procs = 6088.55
9 procs = 6636.65
10 procs = 7184.75

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%
if 10 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 2204
2 procs = 2595.5
3 procs = 2987
4 procs = 3378.5
5 procs = 3770
6 procs = 4161.5
7 procs = 4553
8 procs = 4944.5
9 procs = 5336
10 procs = 5727.5

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%
if 5 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 1095.475
2 procs = 1339.075
3 procs = 1582.675
4 procs = 1826.275
5 procs = 2069.875

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%
if 5 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(43.5x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 1080.25
2 procs = 1254.25
3 procs = 1428.25
4 procs = 1602.25
5 procs = 1776.25

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%
if 5 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 632.925
2 procs = 754.725
3 procs = 876.525

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%
if 3 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(43.5x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 630.75
2 procs = 717.75
3 procs = 804.75

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%
if 2 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 401.65
2 procs = 462.55

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%
total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%
if 2 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(43.5x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))
1 proc = 406
2 procs = 449.5

TL;DR As you can see 15% sentry dmg on shoulders only does more dmg if its 2 or bellow targets

@Jamoose So you say when you increase 100% damage with 500% you still get 500%? Explain how. You cant explain that. I used example where you buff 0% damage by 500% just to show you that you are wrong. I talked about gear for GR and not for trials if that is not obvious then I don't know what is.

This "With crusader AS buff and WD AS buff there is basicly no difference between AS weapon or no AS weapon" is simply wrong. Where do you get that information from? And no, in trials with 0dog you don't run out of hatred and no elite damage in trials is useless. 0dog does not spawn more or less globes when fighting an RG so no, that's not true. the stat priority between ias, ad, ed, rcr on wepaon / gloves or whatever, is different for various setups. For 2 players (wd + dh) i found that you still need quite a lot of rcr. For 4 player groups (wd+crus+2dh) you can totally give up on rcr and rely only on the health globes. For any other setup that doesn't involve 0dog, you want as much rcr as possible.

My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.

Sorry to be a party-pooper, but;

1) Completing 56 right now with a proper group is nothing to be really proud of, the cap where 0DOG starts making a difference is 57/58.

2) My group of 0Dog/Crusader/DH/DH gets 58 keys regularly, while also having attained 59's and even 60's (Arround 10 59's and 5 60's). Why you would take a second crusader there just for HG is beyond me when the WD gives you more globes, more dps via BBV and either mass confusion or haunt.

3) Crusader's law might spawn more HG's per click but it's also on a CD, whereas 0DOG is not, making 0DOG provide more globes per any timeframe that's superior to 5/6 seconds.

4) "0DOG WD does not spawn globes in GR". Im sorry to be offensive, but i've never read anything as retarded as this. What do you think they take 0DOG gear for in GRifts, show and tell? That's exactly what they do in GRifts: Spawn health globes.

Not too sure on what to say here. The fact that you're also stating that with certain AS buffs, having AS on weapon is the same as not having it is just...mindboggling. In your own words, a player with 2 APS will do the exact same dps as someone with 2,2 APS while under the effects of a chanelling pylon. Not too sure where you got this conclusion from (And if it's from your gameplay as you stated then do remind me never to run with you), but to each his own.

I wrote 0dog WD while I tought support WD that is the only problem here. Sorry but I only play DH so this weird names confuse me sometimes. I hope that clears missunderstanding. If you read what I wrote you would see that I also said that I don't take into account legacy items that almost no one has. IF you are telling me that you are getting 60 key in trials with WD that does not use legacy items I must say I don't trust you until you post video of it. Also post video of you clearing 59/60 GR while not using legacy items. What was your max GR with no legacy items on WD?

Support WD that does not use legacy items does not spawn globes in GR. Am I wrong about this???

The biggest advantage of 0dog WD is on boss fight.

Now if we don't take into account legacy items and we speak about regular support WD would you agree that on boss fight you lack HP globes and that RCR is good stat on weapon. AS does not metter in that case beacause it is not important if you spend your hatred 7% faster because CA costs much and it is gone fast anyway. With regular support WD RCR on weapon >>> of AS.

And yes all this comes from my game play because I don't have privilege to play with WD that is using legacy items but regular support WD that does not spawn globes in GR.

so if anyone looked and read through wudijo post on his 52 RG clear you will see he went for area dmg on shoulders and explaining that it is a dps gain over the sentry dmg affix but would prefer doping CDR for sentry dmg affix

My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.

My information comes from actual game play. Iam top 30 DH EU right now and I have compleated 56 in 4 man. It looks to me I know what I am doing. If you did not know you dont use WD for trials. You go there with 2 crusaders one for globes one for damage buff. In that setup we where able to get GR 58 key. And yes we still lack globes almost each trials run. 0dog WD can spawn globes fast if he is using legacy mojo and almost noone has that. Elite damage for trials is useless agreed but I did not talk about trials. Crusader spawns more globes if there are more monsters and RG is single target. 0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR. I did not read rest of the post because so far you dont use valid arguments.

------------

One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%.

"almost no one has that" is irrelevant, i was talking about a specific setup and with that setup, you don't run out of hatred in trials, period. I tried it, i got high keys with it and i also tried non 0dog trials and also got high keys with it. 58 was highest without 0dog iirc... didn't do enough trials with 0dog to see if we can break 58 tbh.

This: "0dog WD does not spawn globes in GR" is simply false.

My arguments are 100% valid and i'm talking from self experience. I am not top whatever in solo but i do have high gr clears in groups and on most classes over 40 in solo. Anyway "if you did not know" you can use wd in trials.

I can't say i spent time on research so to speak but i read forums and discuss with friends. I also play all classes so i'm not the most knowledgable in one specific class (especially not the dh). But that has nothing to do with this. I am telling you that you get 0 hatred issues in trials with a 0dog in group if done right. I tried it and it works, tell me i'm wrong now?

I wrote: "One sentry is out, it increases your damage by 100%. 5 sentries out, they increase your damage by 500%." and it's the exact same thing. The damage increment is 500%.

TL;DR As you can see 15% sentry dmg on shoulders only does more dmg if its 2 or bellow targets## Maths on area dmg vs sentry dmg on shoulders

This was calculated as if Cluster arrow were to do 10 dmg60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%

if 10 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 2251.85

2 procs = 2799.95

3 procs = 3348.05

4 procs = 3896.15

5 procs = 4444.25

6 procs = 4992.35

7 procs = 5540.45

8 procs = 6088.55

9 procs = 6636.65

10 procs = 7184.75

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%

if 10 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 2204

2 procs = 2595.5

3 procs = 2987

4 procs = 3378.5

5 procs = 3770

6 procs = 4161.5

7 procs = 4553

8 procs = 4944.5

9 procs = 5336

10 procs = 5727.5

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%

if 5 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 1095.475

2 procs = 1339.075

3 procs = 1582.675

4 procs = 1826.275

5 procs = 2069.875

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%

if 5 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(43.5x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 1080.25

2 procs = 1254.25

3 procs = 1428.25

4 procs = 1602.25

5 procs = 1776.25

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%

if 5 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 632.925

2 procs = 754.725

3 procs = 876.525

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%

if 3 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(43.5x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 630.75

2 procs = 717.75

3 procs = 804.75

60.9 area dmg (70%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 83.375 per target with Sentry skill scale of 15%

if 2 targets (87x(number of targets))+(83.375x(number of targets))+(60.9x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 401.65

2 procs = 462.55

43.5 area dmg (50%) if CA dmg is 87 with CA skill scale of 45%

total sentry dmg is 94.25 per target with Sentry skill scale of 30%

if 2 targets (87x(number of targets))+(94.25x(number of targets))+(43.5x(number of targets -1)x(number of procs))

1 proc = 406

2 procs = 449.5

TL;DR As you can see 15% sentry dmg on shoulders only does more dmg if its 2 or bellow targetsSupport WD that does not use legacy items does not spawn globes in GR. Am I wrong about this???

The biggest advantage of 0dog WD is on boss fight.

Now if we don't take into account legacy items and we speak about regular support WD would you agree that on boss fight you lack HP globes and that RCR is good stat on weapon. AS does not metter in that case beacause it is not important if you spend your hatred 7% faster because CA costs much and it is gone fast anyway. With regular support WD RCR on weapon >>> of AS.

And yes all this comes from my game play because I don't have privilege to play with WD that is using legacy items but regular support WD that does not spawn globes in GR.