If something is the primary focus of your game, you're probably going to want to implement and start adjusting it as soon as possible. Not tacking it on as an afterthought while the coop game is very playable and rapidly developed.
^^nobody's talking about bind-on-pick-up, it's bind-on-equip.
and to everybody that is against BoE because it will (supposedly) ruin PvP: blizzard representatives have already stated that PvM (in particular, co-op PvM) will be the main focus of D3. you can either accept that, or you can continue to bitch about it.
See thats the problem with guys like you. Early on in the thread, you came in pretending to give partial and fair comments
But in reality, your just another snotty nosed PVE'er who doesn't care if such a crucial aspect of what Diablo PVP is about is ruined for a such a huge fanbase and the Diablo PVP community
What boggles the mind is why you must be so selfish.
If blizzard implemented a system where you could complete as series of hard quests, or farm a certain amount of Gold in order to unbind a particular item, why are you against it?
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
The whole "only items over level 85" is rediculous. PVP doesn't begin until you are max level anyway. Unless you aer some kind of twink pvp'er who wants to fight only at lvl 50, for 99% of the PVP community, they play through the campagin, enjoy the game, level up their character, and then when they hit level 99, they start the amazingly enjoyable process of wheeling an dealing in trades for better items.
A VITAL part of D2 PVP is TRYING the friggen item first. Thats the whole enjoyment of PVP. Trial and Error. You trade your sword/axe whatever to some guy who has a nice looking kris knife because you heard on the forum it is better with your build. You try out the kris knife, and if you don't like it, you trade it away to some other dude who wants it. And so the endless cycle of improvement continues.
In a hack-and-slash game the whole point is tweaking and matching gear to your hearts content. That DOESN'T WORK if you don't want to try on the weapon/gear because as soon as you do it is forever bound to you and you cannot trade it, and all the value it holds is out the window
PVE is BOOORING to me. The first or second playthough is enjoyable because the content is fresh and new. The lore, the quests, the experience of it all. PVE after a few months is BORING to me.
But thats MY opinion. I'm not going to say Blizzard should make Diablo 3 an open world of PVP so that I can go gank PVE'ers any time I want. Because that would ruin a lot of what PVE'ers find fun. IE minding their own buisness and taking down NPC bosses and finding loot. More power to ya.
But PVE'ers like you don't have the same respect. You selfishly want something as pivotal as end-game trading to be butchered by this BOE crap just because it serves your own selfish PVE needs
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations. That cannot happen when items which players have used can no longer be traded, or because you are too scared to try on an item you found b/c it will forever be bound to you
I think I said it before. I do not care for either way if it is BoE or not. I do think making a quest to unbound an item to be not in the cards for Blizzard to do since that will defeat the purpose of the BoE. They maybe able to add a special binding in process that the item is not bound right away. There would have to some sort of restrictions in order for it not to be abused. I think maybe a few minutes and only in town.
We do not know how the items are going to be like and how the drop rate is going to be for the items yet. I think many of the items are going to be worked towards the end when they start to balance everything together.
They may decide that some of the quests may reward some high end items just like D1 had. If they decide to are likely going to be random side quests and they should be difficult to complete.
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We do not know how the items are going to be like and how the drop rate is going to be for the items yet. I think many of the items are going to be worked towards the end when they start to balance everything together.
They may decide that some of the quests may reward some high end items just like D1 had. If they decide to are likely going to be random side quests and they should be difficult to complete.
What I don't understand is why accommodations cannot be made.
Example: Why do they want to introduce Bind on Equip gear? Because over time, Rare items become more and more abundant, and their value goes down.
Fair point.
So if you don't want to have hard quests or high gold prices which allow players to unbind gear, why not have the binding of the gear on a simple delayed timer?
When an item designated for soul binding is found or crafted, it will bind to the whichever character has it after 1 year and a half. (18 months)
What this means is that for 18 months, that item can get traded around freely, even if it has been tried on by someone. But after the 18 months is up, it binds to the account of whoever was wearing it, or had it in their bags
This would allow some decent flexibility for the PVP community so that trade is not butchered, whilst solving the problem of rare items building up.
Because every day rare items would be getting soul bound. (ie items which were found/crafted 18 months ago). This means rare items are continually and constantly being removed from the market, allowing the value of rare items for the PVE crowd to remain high.
It will have the EXACT same effects in terms of curbing build up of rares, than if items were binding immediately upon equip.
Imagine a girl walking down the street, dropping flowers on the ground. Under the current instant bind on equip, it just means that there is another guy walking directly behind her who is immediately cleaning up the flowers.
But if you give a 18 month delay, it just means that the guy who is cleaning up the flowers, will wait until the girl has walked a hundred feet befre before he starts picking up the flowers she is dropping
Under both systems, the build up of rare items will be controlled effectively.
But under the delayed system, it will also allow much greater trading and sampling of items than would otherwise be possible.
A compromise that would give the PVP community breathing room, while also addressing Blizzards main concerns regarding build up of rare items in Diablo 2
Watch the blizzcon 08 design panel. At the very beginning, Jay Wilson says the focus of Dibalo 3 is co-op.
Noone start to build a game like diablo through the PvP. It's not like diablo 3 will be a game like GW or WAR. But it doesn't mean they don't give a shit about PvP, it can be ignored and that D3 will survive 10 years due the PvM public. It doesn't mean D3 are being made to maintain the popularity through PvM, it means the game will be selled on stores under a coop pvm banner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhz3611u1rQ&feature=PlayList&p=5111E43E41B00677&index=13
At this video Jay Wilsom cleary says that in long terms they want D3 to be a competitive PvP game. Thats what i'm talking about. Long term, years after the release, high end.
D1 high end = PvP.
D2 high end = PvP.
D3 high end = we don't know, but w/o regular wow-like updates it's surely PvP.
And we don't really know how they plan to handle PvP. They can even come up with a e-sportive arena were all players must compete using the same gear like in WoW. I don't like this idea but...
If i could choose i would choose regular and official tornaments and leagues. Players would compete and the winners would gain rare drops and gold as prize. The loosers would have to go back to PvM until they farm enough to handle a PvP season.
I'm sorry Michal, but I really can't see your point. You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?
Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
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The problem here is that D3 is a Hack'n slash...if you want people to keep on playing it, you need more and than adventure, you need competition.
Agreed. Its so much more challenging and random playing against peple then playing against the same lame ai over and over. Every rpg'ish type game has the same pvm. You need to beat a certain boss/area, you figure out a strategy that beats it, you can now beat it 100% of the time. Good luck doing that in pvp.
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations.
Lololz couldnt agree more:)
The alternative is when making a game, the game is either pvp enabled, or not.
The problem with this is then it kills pk. Everyone doing any type of pub level/mf runs is going to toggle it off.
I can understand some people don't want the type of gank and run that was allowable in D2, but guess what, plenty of people enjoyed the d2 anytime anywhere pk system(minus the tppk crap of course) enough that completely removing it is a rather stupid decision.
Why not just make 2 seperate servers? Instead of uswest and useast, have pk and nopk. Run them just like the current servers are. This leaves it at the best of both worlds for everyone. You want to pve, cool, have fun with that. Likewise, you shouldnt be able to drag all your characters you leveled/geared in the safe server to the pk server. If you want to participate in the gank and run goodness you need to be on both sides of the coin, the hunter and the hunted.
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
Thats what I'm wondering. The way I always operated each ladder reset in d2 was I'd pve like crazy until I had a good dueler set up, then I'd generally spend most of my time pk'ing random games and screwing around in duel games. I'd still mf and trade, but it was only to slowly build mor wealth to pimp out more duelers. Eventually when you get to the point where you have a couple characters niceley geared you don't really have a reason to pve anymore. Sure, I'd still spend some time pve'ing because it was amusing from time to time just to feel like a god pwning hordes of little trash monsters and the game always had a way of leaving you a little hope that your next drop will be the godly one...
But the beauty of the system was I got sick of a particular character, I could trade all his gear off and do something else. If I had 50 hours worth of mf/trade time over the course of a month focused on gearing up a character, it was awesome knowing that time wasnt wasted when I got sick of that alt. Now if all the high end gear is bound on equip, guess what, I'm gonna grind out one character, do some pvp'ing, and probably start a second and think "my god I don't want to have to be forced to do all this sucky pve grinding again just because forcing all my previously acquired godlies to now be worthless somehow makes the game funner."
That's probably also about the time I uninstall, take the disc out of my computer, scratch it lightly in a few places with a pin so it no longer works, and go back to gamestop all pissed off they sold me a bad cd and demand my money back.
You realize that the PvE-ers aren't bitching and moaning about BoE items... because they get it. They understand how the game works, how PvE is integral to the entire game. I would highly recommend stepping off of the high horse and expecting a huge rework of the game just because you PvP.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
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I'm sorry Michal, but I really can't see your point. You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?
Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades. I remember in D2 I once spent 4 full hours in a game chatting with a guy until I'd convinced him to trade me the Cruel Mythical Sword of Lapmprey he had on his druid in exchange for a very rare ethereal 6 socketed warspike I had on my pally. I'd explained to him the mechanics of how it would give his druid a 4 frame attack. Then he'd haggle back asking if its so good why do I wan't to trade it. And i'd explain to him how pallys can hit 4 frames easily, and the lamprey is a better weapon for us, but the 6 socket warspike allows druids to socket it with mutiple attack speed gems and hit 4 frames, and how because it was etheral it had higher damage than other warspikes, and was very rare. ETC ETC ETC
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
You realize that the PvE-ers aren't bitching and moaning about BoE items... because they get it. They understand how the game works, how PvE is integral to the entire game. I would highly recommend stepping off of the high horse and expecting a huge rework of the game just because you PvP.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
Of-course their not. Because the one ore two percentage differences in gear which fuel what PVP is all about matter zero to a PVE'er. A pve'er couldn't care less if he or she has 18% life leech as opposed to 16% life leech. They don't care about balancing decisions between choosing a faster 4 frame attack weapon with lower damage as opposed to a 5 frame attack one with higher damage. They don't agonize about whether to socket with lethal strike runes or simply go pure attack speed and try to get that lethal strike from other pieces.
But these are the very issues which hack-and-slash pvp is all about. So of-course PVE'ers aren't going to give a crap about bind on equip. Sooner or later theyll get that rare bow or rare axe and that will be the end of it. But for a pvp'er there is no such thing as "the end of it". We are constantly trying to improve our character by trading back and forth until we find optimal gear combination.
And you butcher 90% of the fun part of what makes diablo 2 pvp so lovable and keeps people at it 10 years later when you try to introduce permanent bind on equips. It just can't work if pvp'ers are too scared to try on items because it will bind to you permanently. And if the only available items to trade for are so tiny b/c only unworn gear is available. And equally importantly because for a PVE'er, their in-game wealth grows every time they do what they love. IE pve. While a pvp'er cannot grow richer by pvp'ing. And tourneys or competitive pvp is simply not possible in a hack-and-slash game where gear dictates 90% of the fights outcome. PVP'ers grow richer with smart incremental trades over the career of their characters. When I quit the game for personal obligations, my paladin's full pvp set could have sold for $5000 on ebay if i cared about selling it. (Instead I gave various pieces of my items to pvp friends who id been playing with for years).
What I don't get is why PVE'ers are against suggestions which DO NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY. But are advocating suggestions which affect PVP'ers HUGELY. It is YOU pve'ers who are being incredibly selfish, and not the other way round
PVE and PVP are both vital aspects of the diablo community. The suggestions i've been giving try to find a middle-ground which addresses the concerns of both communities. Instead of this elitist pve attitude where they think they are the only ones that matter.
I really don't see the problem. I mean they said the game is more geared towards PvE and co-op. They said there is going to be BoE... What's the point of arguing? Doesn't matter how much you hate it, or I hate it, or the next guy.. they're not going to change it. naaww meeeen
The game is so far from being complete that I don't even see what the need to worry about something like BoE in this point in time. Blizzard has never released a game that they thought had something that geared toward the needs of other people. Also PvP CANNOT exist without PvE at least with regards to diablo. PvE'ers kill the monsters and through a long line of trades end up giving gear to people who just PvP.
Now you could turn PvP into what WoW has and have arena's and battlegrounds and be able to get PvP only gear from doing this these things. But then that would be the most un diabloish thing ever. Yes BoE can be annoying (I know because I played WoW for a short amount of time and the biggest thing I hated was BoE and BoP stuff) But if Blizz thinks that having certain things that are BoE will make the economy less like a wave that is high at one point and comes crashing down at the next. We should just trust them and wait till the game comes out. And if something is wrong that shouldn't be then you can guarantee that they will come out with a patch that will fix it.
Someone can explain to me why BoE ruin PvP ?????? It's the worst comment I ever heard !! I just don't understand why !!! you still be able to change gear.... And if you absolutly want trade it, just don't wear it and stop to cry !!!
A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
In a sense it does. Ladder only items cannot be used on non-ladder characters, and vice versa. Every time a ladder resets, everyone must start from scratch and level again. Doesn't this sound like what'll have to happen anyway? BoE or no?
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
By making items even more scarce, you're creating a high demand for it. Yes, we love to trade and haggle for our items too, but we also don't mind going out and farming them. I personally thing you're worrying about something trivial and small. If only the top 1% of items are BoE, it doesn't mean you won't see them on the market, it just means you'll have to be that much better at haggling.
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades.
You're missing the point, and nitpicking my words. Nobody's asking you to bust out five hours a night MF grinding. Nobody's asking you to play 40 hours a week to get the items you need to be a good trader. What Blizzard is saying, though, is "For the rarest of rare, you'd better be a good charmer, or a good farmer. One way or another, those items be rare."
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
For PvE'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with PvE buddies in games, going over new build strategies with different weapon setups, dungeon crawling, MFing, rushing friends, questing, and haggling for bigger and better. THAT is what is fun for us. The hard-work part comes in during the fact that we do ALL of the above, and still enjoy PvP every now and then.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about.
Yes, I mock it because it's ridiculous. BoE Delayed one year? Are you reading what you type? That means, in economical terms, that the items value will degrade exponentially (roughly 1/(x^1/2) if I remember my economics class correctly) because of the item now having a decay time. Nobody will want the item if it has three days left (unless they're desperate). I think that the one year delay does nothing more than complicates things. Think about it... essentially, you're not really relieving the situation, and might as well just remove BoE instead (Because in essence, that's what you're doing).
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
Selfish? Really? Look kid, I'm not going around pissing and moaning about PvE stuff. I'm not bitching and complaining about changing mechanics of a game to better suit what I want. I understand that; I'm a consumer. If the game doesn't live up to my expectations, I don't have to buy it. - Blizzard makes great games that last a long time. They listen to the mature community, and take all rational and feasible suggestions into consideration. - To hold judgement on a game until after release. Current design is not final production.
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Well, true... but that's because you have overlapping non-ladders. As soon as a ladder resets, all ladder characters become non ladder characters, combining previous non-ladder characters. This increases the amount of tradable items by a ton, watering down the prices due to a spike in supply.
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If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
You're a PvE player and want to kill monsters.
I"m a PvP player and want to kill players. The problem here is that i wll need to play PvE even more then any PvE player existent since i'll have to farm all my gear whenever i have to change it. And in PvP some times had to change my weapon 3 times in one day (i only wish i had a AH for that :/).
Can you imagine the effort of farming THREE high end weapons ? It takes years. And thats what we're talking about, how Blizz will manage to solve this problem? Will PvP not be based uppon changing gear to seek the perfect formula? Will PvP gear easy to get like in WoW?
My point is: there is a paradox between the announced D3 systems, and maybe (problably) we only see it as a paradox because we don't have all the info. But thats the question: what they have in mind to avoid this gameplay shock ? Simply saying that theres no problem, screw PvPers they will have to live with that is rude... If they announced something that would make your PvE experience less enjoyable would you like to hear a bunch of PvP elitist saying "whos cares" ?
As far as I'm concerned, it's not a problem. If we want to try a different build, or go a different way, we'll have to do the same thing. Our way just happens to be more in line with what the developers want.
It's a matter of how we view the game. I look at it as a whole. If I want to play a PvP game, I'll buy a pvp game. I'm not going try and force the developers to change the game around how I want to play the game.
As I've said before, I honestly think that PvP in Diablo II was more of an afterthought rather than a decided design. My reasoning being the development path of Diablo III.
Edit: If they were to change the game to fully support PvPers in a way that is detrimental to PvE'ers, I have no qualms with reducing the amount of time I will spend playing the game. It's not the end-all be-all, or the end of the world for me. I'll end up playing a different game. It's that simple.
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So your point is that making end-game items BoE will mean that players need to play the game more to get items as opposed to not playing the game at all and just recycling the same crap. That might be a valid point for a game like D2 which lacks in content and really can't provide any thrills anymore and where getting gear through playing is nothing more than a repetitive grind.
If they want to promote playing and make it more rewarding (and then also exciting) by making the players experience content to get more gear rather than sit and trade, maybe that's actually not that bad...
It's simple as this: you get one end-game item and decide whether to equip it and use it or use it for trading purposes. You are not a child, you know exactly what your decision means. You decide to equip it, and then you find yourself without something that could otherwise be a trading good. What you do next is go and play the game more to try and get that item again. YOU GO AND PLAY THE GAME MORE DAMN IT. You don't just trade, trade, trade endlessly. Considering that you only need a very small and finite number of items on you, through your entire gameplaying span, you might actually keep about 20-50 end-game items you find (not trade for, find) and the rest you simply trade away. Once you get what you need, nothing is stopping you from trading the things you accumulate past that point.
But I can see how hard this can be to understand. It's so complicated, right?
See thats the problem with guys like you. Early on in the thread, you came in pretending to give partial and fair comments
But in reality, your just another snotty nosed PVE'er who doesn't care if such a crucial aspect of what Diablo PVP is about is ruined for a such a huge fanbase and the Diablo PVP community
What boggles the mind is why you must be so selfish.
If blizzard implemented a system where you could complete as series of hard quests, or farm a certain amount of Gold in order to unbind a particular item, why are you against it?
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
The whole "only items over level 85" is rediculous. PVP doesn't begin until you are max level anyway. Unless you aer some kind of twink pvp'er who wants to fight only at lvl 50, for 99% of the PVP community, they play through the campagin, enjoy the game, level up their character, and then when they hit level 99, they start the amazingly enjoyable process of wheeling an dealing in trades for better items.
A VITAL part of D2 PVP is TRYING the friggen item first. Thats the whole enjoyment of PVP. Trial and Error. You trade your sword/axe whatever to some guy who has a nice looking kris knife because you heard on the forum it is better with your build. You try out the kris knife, and if you don't like it, you trade it away to some other dude who wants it. And so the endless cycle of improvement continues.
In a hack-and-slash game the whole point is tweaking and matching gear to your hearts content. That DOESN'T WORK if you don't want to try on the weapon/gear because as soon as you do it is forever bound to you and you cannot trade it, and all the value it holds is out the window
PVE is BOOORING to me. The first or second playthough is enjoyable because the content is fresh and new. The lore, the quests, the experience of it all. PVE after a few months is BORING to me.
But thats MY opinion. I'm not going to say Blizzard should make Diablo 3 an open world of PVP so that I can go gank PVE'ers any time I want. Because that would ruin a lot of what PVE'ers find fun. IE minding their own buisness and taking down NPC bosses and finding loot. More power to ya.
But PVE'ers like you don't have the same respect. You selfishly want something as pivotal as end-game trading to be butchered by this BOE crap just because it serves your own selfish PVE needs
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations. That cannot happen when items which players have used can no longer be traded, or because you are too scared to try on an item you found b/c it will forever be bound to you
We do not know how the items are going to be like and how the drop rate is going to be for the items yet. I think many of the items are going to be worked towards the end when they start to balance everything together.
They may decide that some of the quests may reward some high end items just like D1 had. If they decide to are likely going to be random side quests and they should be difficult to complete.
What I don't understand is why accommodations cannot be made.
Example: Why do they want to introduce Bind on Equip gear? Because over time, Rare items become more and more abundant, and their value goes down.
Fair point.
So if you don't want to have hard quests or high gold prices which allow players to unbind gear, why not have the binding of the gear on a simple delayed timer?
When an item designated for soul binding is found or crafted, it will bind to the whichever character has it after 1 year and a half. (18 months)
What this means is that for 18 months, that item can get traded around freely, even if it has been tried on by someone. But after the 18 months is up, it binds to the account of whoever was wearing it, or had it in their bags
This would allow some decent flexibility for the PVP community so that trade is not butchered, whilst solving the problem of rare items building up.
Because every day rare items would be getting soul bound. (ie items which were found/crafted 18 months ago). This means rare items are continually and constantly being removed from the market, allowing the value of rare items for the PVE crowd to remain high.
It will have the EXACT same effects in terms of curbing build up of rares, than if items were binding immediately upon equip.
Imagine a girl walking down the street, dropping flowers on the ground. Under the current instant bind on equip, it just means that there is another guy walking directly behind her who is immediately cleaning up the flowers.
But if you give a 18 month delay, it just means that the guy who is cleaning up the flowers, will wait until the girl has walked a hundred feet befre before he starts picking up the flowers she is dropping
Under both systems, the build up of rare items will be controlled effectively.
But under the delayed system, it will also allow much greater trading and sampling of items than would otherwise be possible.
A compromise that would give the PVP community breathing room, while also addressing Blizzards main concerns regarding build up of rare items in Diablo 2
Noone start to build a game like diablo through the PvP. It's not like diablo 3 will be a game like GW or WAR. But it doesn't mean they don't give a shit about PvP, it can be ignored and that D3 will survive 10 years due the PvM public. It doesn't mean D3 are being made to maintain the popularity through PvM, it means the game will be selled on stores under a coop pvm banner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhz3611u1rQ&feature=PlayList&p=5111E43E41B00677&index=13
At this video Jay Wilsom cleary says that in long terms they want D3 to be a competitive PvP game. Thats what i'm talking about. Long term, years after the release, high end.
D1 high end = PvP.
D2 high end = PvP.
D3 high end = we don't know, but w/o regular wow-like updates it's surely PvP.
And we don't really know how they plan to handle PvP. They can even come up with a e-sportive arena were all players must compete using the same gear like in WoW. I don't like this idea but...
If i could choose i would choose regular and official tornaments and leagues. Players would compete and the winners would gain rare drops and gold as prize. The loosers would have to go back to PvM until they farm enough to handle a PvP season.
Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Agreed. Its so much more challenging and random playing against peple then playing against the same lame ai over and over. Every rpg'ish type game has the same pvm. You need to beat a certain boss/area, you figure out a strategy that beats it, you can now beat it 100% of the time. Good luck doing that in pvp.
Lololz couldnt agree more:)
The problem with this is then it kills pk. Everyone doing any type of pub level/mf runs is going to toggle it off.
I can understand some people don't want the type of gank and run that was allowable in D2, but guess what, plenty of people enjoyed the d2 anytime anywhere pk system(minus the tppk crap of course) enough that completely removing it is a rather stupid decision.
Why not just make 2 seperate servers? Instead of uswest and useast, have pk and nopk. Run them just like the current servers are. This leaves it at the best of both worlds for everyone. You want to pve, cool, have fun with that. Likewise, you shouldnt be able to drag all your characters you leveled/geared in the safe server to the pk server. If you want to participate in the gank and run goodness you need to be on both sides of the coin, the hunter and the hunted.
Thats what I'm wondering. The way I always operated each ladder reset in d2 was I'd pve like crazy until I had a good dueler set up, then I'd generally spend most of my time pk'ing random games and screwing around in duel games. I'd still mf and trade, but it was only to slowly build mor wealth to pimp out more duelers. Eventually when you get to the point where you have a couple characters niceley geared you don't really have a reason to pve anymore. Sure, I'd still spend some time pve'ing because it was amusing from time to time just to feel like a god pwning hordes of little trash monsters and the game always had a way of leaving you a little hope that your next drop will be the godly one...
But the beauty of the system was I got sick of a particular character, I could trade all his gear off and do something else. If I had 50 hours worth of mf/trade time over the course of a month focused on gearing up a character, it was awesome knowing that time wasnt wasted when I got sick of that alt. Now if all the high end gear is bound on equip, guess what, I'm gonna grind out one character, do some pvp'ing, and probably start a second and think "my god I don't want to have to be forced to do all this sucky pve grinding again just because forcing all my previously acquired godlies to now be worthless somehow makes the game funner."
That's probably also about the time I uninstall, take the disc out of my computer, scratch it lightly in a few places with a pin so it no longer works, and go back to gamestop all pissed off they sold me a bad cd and demand my money back.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades. I remember in D2 I once spent 4 full hours in a game chatting with a guy until I'd convinced him to trade me the Cruel Mythical Sword of Lapmprey he had on his druid in exchange for a very rare ethereal 6 socketed warspike I had on my pally. I'd explained to him the mechanics of how it would give his druid a 4 frame attack. Then he'd haggle back asking if its so good why do I wan't to trade it. And i'd explain to him how pallys can hit 4 frames easily, and the lamprey is a better weapon for us, but the 6 socket warspike allows druids to socket it with mutiple attack speed gems and hit 4 frames, and how because it was etheral it had higher damage than other warspikes, and was very rare. ETC ETC ETC
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
Of-course their not. Because the one ore two percentage differences in gear which fuel what PVP is all about matter zero to a PVE'er. A pve'er couldn't care less if he or she has 18% life leech as opposed to 16% life leech. They don't care about balancing decisions between choosing a faster 4 frame attack weapon with lower damage as opposed to a 5 frame attack one with higher damage. They don't agonize about whether to socket with lethal strike runes or simply go pure attack speed and try to get that lethal strike from other pieces.
But these are the very issues which hack-and-slash pvp is all about. So of-course PVE'ers aren't going to give a crap about bind on equip. Sooner or later theyll get that rare bow or rare axe and that will be the end of it. But for a pvp'er there is no such thing as "the end of it". We are constantly trying to improve our character by trading back and forth until we find optimal gear combination.
And you butcher 90% of the fun part of what makes diablo 2 pvp so lovable and keeps people at it 10 years later when you try to introduce permanent bind on equips. It just can't work if pvp'ers are too scared to try on items because it will bind to you permanently. And if the only available items to trade for are so tiny b/c only unworn gear is available. And equally importantly because for a PVE'er, their in-game wealth grows every time they do what they love. IE pve. While a pvp'er cannot grow richer by pvp'ing. And tourneys or competitive pvp is simply not possible in a hack-and-slash game where gear dictates 90% of the fights outcome. PVP'ers grow richer with smart incremental trades over the career of their characters. When I quit the game for personal obligations, my paladin's full pvp set could have sold for $5000 on ebay if i cared about selling it. (Instead I gave various pieces of my items to pvp friends who id been playing with for years).
What I don't get is why PVE'ers are against suggestions which DO NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY. But are advocating suggestions which affect PVP'ers HUGELY. It is YOU pve'ers who are being incredibly selfish, and not the other way round
PVE and PVP are both vital aspects of the diablo community. The suggestions i've been giving try to find a middle-ground which addresses the concerns of both communities. Instead of this elitist pve attitude where they think they are the only ones that matter.
♣Strength and Honor♣
Now you could turn PvP into what WoW has and have arena's and battlegrounds and be able to get PvP only gear from doing this these things. But then that would be the most un diabloish thing ever. Yes BoE can be annoying (I know because I played WoW for a short amount of time and the biggest thing I hated was BoE and BoP stuff) But if Blizz thinks that having certain things that are BoE will make the economy less like a wave that is high at one point and comes crashing down at the next. We should just trust them and wait till the game comes out. And if something is wrong that shouldn't be then you can guarantee that they will come out with a patch that will fix it.
In a sense it does. Ladder only items cannot be used on non-ladder characters, and vice versa. Every time a ladder resets, everyone must start from scratch and level again. Doesn't this sound like what'll have to happen anyway? BoE or no?
By making items even more scarce, you're creating a high demand for it. Yes, we love to trade and haggle for our items too, but we also don't mind going out and farming them. I personally thing you're worrying about something trivial and small. If only the top 1% of items are BoE, it doesn't mean you won't see them on the market, it just means you'll have to be that much better at haggling.
You're missing the point, and nitpicking my words. Nobody's asking you to bust out five hours a night MF grinding. Nobody's asking you to play 40 hours a week to get the items you need to be a good trader. What Blizzard is saying, though, is "For the rarest of rare, you'd better be a good charmer, or a good farmer. One way or another, those items be rare."
For PvE'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with PvE buddies in games, going over new build strategies with different weapon setups, dungeon crawling, MFing, rushing friends, questing, and haggling for bigger and better. THAT is what is fun for us. The hard-work part comes in during the fact that we do ALL of the above, and still enjoy PvP every now and then.
Yes, I mock it because it's ridiculous. BoE Delayed one year? Are you reading what you type? That means, in economical terms, that the items value will degrade exponentially (roughly 1/(x^1/2) if I remember my economics class correctly) because of the item now having a decay time. Nobody will want the item if it has three days left (unless they're desperate). I think that the one year delay does nothing more than complicates things. Think about it... essentially, you're not really relieving the situation, and might as well just remove BoE instead (Because in essence, that's what you're doing).
Selfish? Really? Look kid, I'm not going around pissing and moaning about PvE stuff. I'm not bitching and complaining about changing mechanics of a game to better suit what I want. I understand that; I'm a consumer. If the game doesn't live up to my expectations, I don't have to buy it. - Blizzard makes great games that last a long time. They listen to the mature community, and take all rational and feasible suggestions into consideration. - To hold judgement on a game until after release. Current design is not final production.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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You're a PvE player and want to kill monsters.
I"m a PvP player and want to kill players. The problem here is that i wll need to play PvE even more then any PvE player existent since i'll have to farm all my gear whenever i have to change it. And in PvP some times had to change my weapon 3 times in one day (i only wish i had a AH for that :/).
Can you imagine the effort of farming THREE high end weapons ? It takes years. And thats what we're talking about, how Blizz will manage to solve this problem? Will PvP not be based uppon changing gear to seek the perfect formula? Will PvP gear easy to get like in WoW?
My point is: there is a paradox between the announced D3 systems, and maybe (problably) we only see it as a paradox because we don't have all the info. But thats the question: what they have in mind to avoid this gameplay shock ? Simply saying that theres no problem, screw PvPers they will have to live with that is rude... If they announced something that would make your PvE experience less enjoyable would you like to hear a bunch of PvP elitist saying "whos cares" ?
It's a matter of how we view the game. I look at it as a whole. If I want to play a PvP game, I'll buy a pvp game. I'm not going try and force the developers to change the game around how I want to play the game.
As I've said before, I honestly think that PvP in Diablo II was more of an afterthought rather than a decided design. My reasoning being the development path of Diablo III.
Edit: If they were to change the game to fully support PvPers in a way that is detrimental to PvE'ers, I have no qualms with reducing the amount of time I will spend playing the game. It's not the end-all be-all, or the end of the world for me. I'll end up playing a different game. It's that simple.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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If they want to promote playing and make it more rewarding (and then also exciting) by making the players experience content to get more gear rather than sit and trade, maybe that's actually not that bad...
It's simple as this: you get one end-game item and decide whether to equip it and use it or use it for trading purposes. You are not a child, you know exactly what your decision means. You decide to equip it, and then you find yourself without something that could otherwise be a trading good. What you do next is go and play the game more to try and get that item again. YOU GO AND PLAY THE GAME MORE DAMN IT. You don't just trade, trade, trade endlessly. Considering that you only need a very small and finite number of items on you, through your entire gameplaying span, you might actually keep about 20-50 end-game items you find (not trade for, find) and the rest you simply trade away. Once you get what you need, nothing is stopping you from trading the things you accumulate past that point.
But I can see how hard this can be to understand. It's so complicated, right?
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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