I think the question that needs to be pondered the most is, why was Baal set to corrupt the Soulstone, and what purpose would it fulfill?
I think there's a number of theories regarding this. My own (still having not read The Veiled Prophet, yet knowing the book was written way later) is that the Worldstone serves many purposes. Among them is to act as a kind of buffer between Heaven, Hell, and the mortal realm. I sort of think of it as a conduit in which demonic and angelic forces may flow, but to corrupt it the way Baal was, would cut off the feed of the High Heavens, and make only the Burning Hells have control (or influence) over its powers.
This idea I haven't thought out much. I have more ideas as to what the Worldstone's destruction means, but as for Baal corrupting it, since Baal is a very powerful demon, we can safely assume that his powers are vast enough to render such a powerful artifact into an instrument in which he could either harness or magnify his power. I might also assume that the Soulstones were chipped pieces of the Worldstone, but that's pure conjecture on my part.
Isn't it just as common as calling their young a calf? Like with most large, warm blooded mammals. Even whales will give birth to a calf. Though I don't know if a male whale is referred to as a bull male.
Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I don't think game developers take their lore seriously enough. Don't they know there will always be deranged fans like us picking apart all the details and/or contradictions in their games?
It may sound facetious of me, but I'm actually rather serious. I do take that stuff pretty seriously.
Yeah, well it was just a theory. We're trying to figure out why there is the Warlord of Blood in the first Diablo and then Bartuc the Bloody in LoD.
And I just figured since his armor is so significant as seen in the Legacy of Blood, perhaps his soul was fractured and half remained in his body, the other half bound to his armor. Just a theory.
It could very well be that whoever came up with Bartuc the Bloody was just scrolling through the list of Diablo names at Blizzard and thought, "Yeah, let's just call him that."
either Baal ressurected him to surround himself with powerful demons, or the one is d1 is like a an incarnation of him in his armor or something.
That's actually an interesting theory. Since we know his armor was capable of doing that. Perhaps it is this: once he was defeated, there was the earthly remains of him as well as his essence contain within his armor. When separated, neither were very powerful as a resurrected fighting force, but had flesh and armor come together, then Bartuc would've been as he once was before in all his glory.
Did you mean to say Bartuc was the Warlord of Blood? Cause I was under the impression that he was that. However, I was never really certain that the Warlord of Blood you slay is Diablo is Bartuc himself. Bartuc seemed long gone by that time. Except of course his incarnation within his armor.
Hopefully there is a cinematic in Diablo 3 which involves travelling into inarius' chamber of mirrors, with the awesome graphics that blizzard allways has in their cinematics that would be amazing
That would be great wouldn't it? I picture the mirrors all reflecting a lot of glaring light just to really illuminate Inarius so he can see himself all the better. That would be a chilling cutscene.
I sometimes wonder if it was all of his followers or just some of his top ranking followers that were turned into the Overlords. Cause perhaps the Overlords themselves were the higher ranking members of Inarius' religion, while the lesser one were the ones that became the Mud Men, Toad Demons, and Flayed Ones.
Is he actually now an Overlord though? Cause I thought it was his followers that became the Overlods. But Inarius himself, he's really just a mutilated and chained up angel, stripped of his powers.
This passage I've been finding more and more interesting lately. It makes me think that Diablo was contained in more than just a stone. Perhaps some kind of Horadric artifact that largely masked the stone's presence from would-be adventurers? I mean, if Baal's soulstone was being wrestled over with Tal Rasha, and Mephisto was supposedly being guarded within the Horadric tower (later to become the Temple of the Zakarum), then what other precaution for Diablo besides his Soulstone was there to keep him contained and unfounded?
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well that gets us to the end of Diablo 1, but the exact timeline for Diablo 2 is still up for debate, esp. with the fact that Marius have "aged" conciderably, between what he looks like in the flashbacks and what he looks like whe nhe is retelling his story
In the game with the expansion installed, you could argue that you go straight from killing Diablo, to venture to the Barbarian homelands to defeat Baal. But I actually liked to think that there was a brief period of peace in the lands while Baal was regaining his strength and mustering his army. And then the last thing he would do before beginning his metamorphisis, would be to retrieve his Soulstone from Marius.
So assuming maybe a standard year had passed in between that time, as well as what many believe were the effects of carrying the Soulstone, those factors could certainly account for Marius' rapid aging. For a third factor, you could even consider what living in an insane asylum would do to a person after a long period of time. Even in today's moder asylums where patients are treated relatively well, they can still age faster than the normal person. But considering the kind you see in Diablo that are similar to the medieval ones on Earth, where you are simply locked up and constrained all of the time withouth any therapy or treatments, that could wreak havoc on one's appearance and state of mind.
In summary then, one theory could be that Diablo was defeated, then some considerable time passes (maybe a year, maybe even more). That time combined with living in a wretched asylum as well as possessing the Soulstone of the Lord of Destruction seem good enough reasons we see Marius in his current state.
I don't have too much to support that a lot of time had passed after Diablo's defeat except to suggest that even Baal, after being imprisoned for a long time and battling wits with Tal Rasha for hundreds of years, needed to regain his strength. Why then does he go back for his Soulstone? He might not have felt the urgency of retrieving it before since initially neither of his brothers had yet been defeated in combat. What purpose does it serve for him? Several things probably. But I actually believe that his own Soulstone was somewhat necessary in order to begin his metamorphosis. I don't have much to back that up either except that I don't think it's a coincidence that after getting his Soulstone back he is suddenly this wicked looking multi-appendaged, powerful spell-casting demon.
so basically, you were saying the Barbarians were nothing more than a collection of xenophobic warrior-clans?
Mm, basically, yeah. I mean, it talks about that in the manuals and several NPCs at Harrogath make comments eluding to their distrust of outsiders.
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it starts to make sense now. Deckard Cain thought of them legendary maybe because of their secrecy and dislike for outsiders.
And I'm not saying they're not legendary. Sure they are legendary. They are just not beyond powers of the average mortal. But they still have amazing attributes as a people that makes the more stalwart than other peoples. And just living in the more extreme enviroment that they do makes them more resilient on many levels.
I kind of wish there had been a class that was based out of the desert regions. Kind of like the Fremen in Dune.
so this means we don't know anything about the Worldstone other than that it's some sort of a gate to keep out the Nephalem from infesting the world?
Um, well I guess the Nephalem were technically still in the world. They just wouldn't have their powers. Does that make sense?
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then how come the Ancient Ones existed in Sanctuary? i don't think i get it (sorry for being nub), but it seems that the Worldstone has a double standard. "keep out mama's boys, but never mind papa's." is that it?
Well it's not like the Ancients (Nephalem) weren't around before the Worldstone was supposedly created.
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or, as you said, the Nephalem forsook their hybrid powers to become full-fledged human, but still retaining the physical strength of their lineage.
Are you talking to me? Cause I don't think I said that at all.
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if this is the case, then Baal has nothing to fear from them (or has cause not to), since demons generally treat mortals with scorn. or maybe he doesn't really know it (which i doubt)...
As I said before, the Nephalem in the past gave the Prime Evils a good run for their money. Baal is just wise not to underestimate the Nephalem. And why not avoid a fight if you can? Obviously Nihlathak was easy to manipulate, at least, easier than fighting the Ancients. And besides, gameplay wise, the Nephalem by the time you fight Hell difficulty are far more difficult to defeat than Baal is in my opinion.
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i also don't think the tales of Barbarians having legendary strength is exaggerated.
I think for you they are exaggerated. Since you seem to think they are more than human.
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Harrogath wouldn't really be besieged that long if Barbarians were just like ordinary humans;
Not beseiged that long as in instead of being beseiged they merely be finally conquered? That sentence is a little confusing.
Quote from "kittikai" »
what they lacked in formal training (like the Paladins of Westmarch) they compensated for their raw power.
I'm sure the Barbarians have some form of formal training. It's probably just not as structured and rigid as that of the Paladins.
Quote from "kittikai" »
true that Harrogath is merely a thorn on Baal's foot, but it was a thorn nonetheless and he wanted it removed--which, of course, the Barbarian ward on the city refused to do so.
Harrogath was the last place of resistance against Baal. It wasn't Baal that besieged the city directly, but his horde. This way he could proceed unheeded toward Mt. Arreat. Plus, he knows that the hero (you) who killed his other two brothers is pursuing him. So to burn everything in his path, making it all the more difficult for you to reach him, makes obvious sense.
Also, it is important to remember that the ward erected around Harrogath was the product of a Druidic spell, not a Barbarian one. In other words, I still don't think the Barbarians are as more powerful than other mortals as you think. All mortals who exist on Sanctuary share the demon/angelic bloodline of Lilith and Inarius, not just the Barbarians.
hi guys my first post here; the discussion is too irresistible not to join in.
Great first post. Welcome to the forums. Well, I'll take a few moments and to to address some of your thoughts on this topic.
Quote from "kittikai" »
it makes sense that the Ancient Ones ("We are the spirits of the Nephalem, the Ancient Ones") became the guardians of the Mount Arreat's summit as they were said to be the offspring of the Angel Inarius and the Demoness Lilith. according to what i read from Wikipedia, the Nephalem were polarized in their allegiance to either parent, and Inarius constructed the Worldstone to limit their powers in Sanctuary. it would go with the Nephalem being its guardians, those Nephalem loyal to their father instead of their demonic mother.
I sense these clarificationson the Nephalem are discussed in the second Sin War book, and even though that has spoiled things a little for me, it would certainly go a long way to explaining the purpose of the Worldstone. A purpose which most of us have never been able to fully ascertain.
Quote from "kittikai" »
also, the Barbarians of Mount Arreat were legendary for their fearsome battle abilities and such. this would point to them as a bit more than humans, maybe owing to their angelic-demonic lineage. Larzuk says the Ancient Ones were not only their ancestors, but also their "gods" ("Every night I pray to the Ancients... And now you are going to fight them. Tell me... who do I pray to now?"), so this means that the Ancient Ones were indeed the product of Inarius and Lilith's unholy union then this would precisely mean that Barbarians were of a different breed than mundane humans.
It is no mystery that the Ancient Ones are merely another term for the Nephalem, or that the Barbarians worship them as demigods. But it is important to keep in mind the power of myth when it comes to the Barbarians. I don't think by the time you find them in Harrogath, they are any more or less human than everyone else. But because they are so secretive and do not appreciate outsiders, the aura of mystery around them would make people tell tales of their fighting prowess to the point of exaggeration. I'm not saying Barbarians aren't great warriors, but even Anya admits that they have fallen far from what they (mortals) used to be.
It's just like the myth of the Necromancers. Often misunderstood, people perceive them as evil. But the myth of who and what they are proliferates due to their secretive society.
Quote from "kittikai" »
as for Baal fearing the Ancient Ones, i believe he did. Anya said "Now Baal will not be tested!" This would mean that the Ancients possessed some kind of potential that could rival Baal's sheer destructive power. Inarius was said (I dunno where I read this) to have envied the Nephalem their power, or else he saw the need to limit them or they would run rampant throughout Sanctuary, and thus erected the Worldstone. if that was that important,
Demons and angels alike were jealous and fearful of the Nephalem. They were especially intrigued by mortal's ability to make their own choices and side with either Heaven or Hell.
Quote from "kittikai" »
it makes sense that his guardians would probably have enough power to keep off intruders--especially that the Worldstone's natural enemies are demons. maybe the Ancient Ones were an exception to the Worldstone's effects (as they're dead--this also means that the Nephalem are mortal, or alternatively, they can choose a mortal shell, just like Diablo and his brothers could).
But the demons suffered a lot by the powers of the Nephalem as well. Demons could just as easily have benefited from the Worldstone's presence, since the Nephalem were running amok, killing Triune minions.
Quote from "kittikai" »
i dunno how to put this together, but it seems that being in close proximity to a Soulstone (or the Worldstone) grants inhabitants of the nether regions, i.e. Heaven and Hell, temporary boost in abilities. like for example, Tyrael had much more majestic wings before the Worldstone, and that Baal only assumed his true form after taking the last shard of his Soulstone from Marius.
I disagree with you here. Whether intentional or not, Tyraels wings in the last cinematic appear faded and in flux. They are not bold, solid, or as bright as they appear in the scene in after Act II. And Baal was merely metamorphisizing into his new form as he was growing in power. It would make sense that he was rather weak right after Marius pulled the stone out of him. And as he regained his strength, he would simply leave behind his old form for one of a more demonic likeness.
This idea I haven't thought out much. I have more ideas as to what the Worldstone's destruction means, but as for Baal corrupting it, since Baal is a very powerful demon, we can safely assume that his powers are vast enough to render such a powerful artifact into an instrument in which he could either harness or magnify his power. I might also assume that the Soulstones were chipped pieces of the Worldstone, but that's pure conjecture on my part.
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It may sound facetious of me, but I'm actually rather serious. I do take that stuff pretty seriously.
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And I just figured since his armor is so significant as seen in the Legacy of Blood, perhaps his soul was fractured and half remained in his body, the other half bound to his armor. Just a theory.
It could very well be that whoever came up with Bartuc the Bloody was just scrolling through the list of Diablo names at Blizzard and thought, "Yeah, let's just call him that."
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In the game with the expansion installed, you could argue that you go straight from killing Diablo, to venture to the Barbarian homelands to defeat Baal. But I actually liked to think that there was a brief period of peace in the lands while Baal was regaining his strength and mustering his army. And then the last thing he would do before beginning his metamorphisis, would be to retrieve his Soulstone from Marius.
So assuming maybe a standard year had passed in between that time, as well as what many believe were the effects of carrying the Soulstone, those factors could certainly account for Marius' rapid aging. For a third factor, you could even consider what living in an insane asylum would do to a person after a long period of time. Even in today's moder asylums where patients are treated relatively well, they can still age faster than the normal person. But considering the kind you see in Diablo that are similar to the medieval ones on Earth, where you are simply locked up and constrained all of the time withouth any therapy or treatments, that could wreak havoc on one's appearance and state of mind.
In summary then, one theory could be that Diablo was defeated, then some considerable time passes (maybe a year, maybe even more). That time combined with living in a wretched asylum as well as possessing the Soulstone of the Lord of Destruction seem good enough reasons we see Marius in his current state.
I don't have too much to support that a lot of time had passed after Diablo's defeat except to suggest that even Baal, after being imprisoned for a long time and battling wits with Tal Rasha for hundreds of years, needed to regain his strength. Why then does he go back for his Soulstone? He might not have felt the urgency of retrieving it before since initially neither of his brothers had yet been defeated in combat. What purpose does it serve for him? Several things probably. But I actually believe that his own Soulstone was somewhat necessary in order to begin his metamorphosis. I don't have much to back that up either except that I don't think it's a coincidence that after getting his Soulstone back he is suddenly this wicked looking multi-appendaged, powerful spell-casting demon.
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And I'm not saying they're not legendary. Sure they are legendary. They are just not beyond powers of the average mortal. But they still have amazing attributes as a people that makes the more stalwart than other peoples. And just living in the more extreme enviroment that they do makes them more resilient on many levels.
I kind of wish there had been a class that was based out of the desert regions. Kind of like the Fremen in Dune.
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Well it's not like the Ancients (Nephalem) weren't around before the Worldstone was supposedly created.
Are you talking to me? Cause I don't think I said that at all.
As I said before, the Nephalem in the past gave the Prime Evils a good run for their money. Baal is just wise not to underestimate the Nephalem. And why not avoid a fight if you can? Obviously Nihlathak was easy to manipulate, at least, easier than fighting the Ancients. And besides, gameplay wise, the Nephalem by the time you fight Hell difficulty are far more difficult to defeat than Baal is in my opinion.
I think for you they are exaggerated. Since you seem to think they are more than human.
Not beseiged that long as in instead of being beseiged they merely be finally conquered? That sentence is a little confusing.
I'm sure the Barbarians have some form of formal training. It's probably just not as structured and rigid as that of the Paladins.
Harrogath was the last place of resistance against Baal. It wasn't Baal that besieged the city directly, but his horde. This way he could proceed unheeded toward Mt. Arreat. Plus, he knows that the hero (you) who killed his other two brothers is pursuing him. So to burn everything in his path, making it all the more difficult for you to reach him, makes obvious sense.
Also, it is important to remember that the ward erected around Harrogath was the product of a Druidic spell, not a Barbarian one. In other words, I still don't think the Barbarians are as more powerful than other mortals as you think. All mortals who exist on Sanctuary share the demon/angelic bloodline of Lilith and Inarius, not just the Barbarians.
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I sense these clarificationson the Nephalem are discussed in the second Sin War book, and even though that has spoiled things a little for me, it would certainly go a long way to explaining the purpose of the Worldstone. A purpose which most of us have never been able to fully ascertain.
It is no mystery that the Ancient Ones are merely another term for the Nephalem, or that the Barbarians worship them as demigods. But it is important to keep in mind the power of myth when it comes to the Barbarians. I don't think by the time you find them in Harrogath, they are any more or less human than everyone else. But because they are so secretive and do not appreciate outsiders, the aura of mystery around them would make people tell tales of their fighting prowess to the point of exaggeration. I'm not saying Barbarians aren't great warriors, but even Anya admits that they have fallen far from what they (mortals) used to be.
It's just like the myth of the Necromancers. Often misunderstood, people perceive them as evil. But the myth of who and what they are proliferates due to their secretive society.
Demons and angels alike were jealous and fearful of the Nephalem. They were especially intrigued by mortal's ability to make their own choices and side with either Heaven or Hell.
But the demons suffered a lot by the powers of the Nephalem as well. Demons could just as easily have benefited from the Worldstone's presence, since the Nephalem were running amok, killing Triune minions.
I disagree with you here. Whether intentional or not, Tyraels wings in the last cinematic appear faded and in flux. They are not bold, solid, or as bright as they appear in the scene in after Act II. And Baal was merely metamorphisizing into his new form as he was growing in power. It would make sense that he was rather weak right after Marius pulled the stone out of him. And as he regained his strength, he would simply leave behind his old form for one of a more demonic likeness.
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