I feel that a good solution would be to combine both ideas somewhat.
In all reality, any player who is worth his salt in the problem solving department will likely deduce that maxing each Artisan only one time each on their account will save them trouble and gold. So then, when I want to craft a nifty staff for my lvl 2 Wizard, I won't start from the ground up, I will just log onto my lvl 60 Barbarian who has all Artisans maxed, and mule the item over with the shared stash.
However, it seems that Artisans are "unlocked" on characters via quests. In my ideal world, the way the system would work is that you have shared Artisans on account, but they are available to a character only after that character completes the quest. This way, if I find a really cool new recipe on my second character, I don't have to go through the trouble of muling the recipe to my main, crafting it, then muling the item back.
An "inspect" option is far too complicated for the average player to understand. You have to find a person, then right click them? Most Diablo players do not have the mental capacities to pull this off (in Blizzard's opinion anyways).
Beyond that, inpecting a player requires thought and the ability to read; two traits that Blizzard does not think we posses (if this were implemented, it would scare off the casual croud amirite Blizz).
It will be nice in some aspects (not having to get 237 Str to wear a freaking helmet), but this also means that Witch Doctors and Wizards will be vying for the same Plate Mail that a Barbarian does.
Inevitably, there will be some legendaries/uniques that are top tier and benefit ALL classes to a certain degree, and only having a level requirement means all classes will go after it.
Think like Stone Ring of Jordan, but there's also Stone Plate Mail of Jordan, Stone Wizard's Hat of Jordan, Stone Berserker Axe of Jordan, and Stone Leather Gloves of Jordan; all classes will be competing for the same exact armor pieces for several slots, instead of just rings and amulets.
"requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats"
Maybe he is on to something after all. Perhaps items should be removed from the game. After all, items are yet another type of item. Also, clicking on them, let alone managing them, is far too complicated a task to expect the target audience to carry out.
I would wager that player stats are on the chopping block as well, as to identify them, you need to posses the ability to read (ie: not in Diablo 3 target audience). Maybe instead of Attack, Defense, Willpower, etc, they could just use pictures of a sword, a shield, etc.
Wait, different pictures are complicated. Just use a big happy face to indicate player stats, and instead of using complex numbers, the happy face smile just gets bigger and bigger the more it increases.
Hi, I'm the RealVonDoom! You may remember me from such threads as "Number of skills capped?" and "Attribute point assignment."
Alright, enough with the Troy McClure impersonation. The Talisman is gone. I have been a fierce opponent of customization reduction since day 1 (though I only recently started a forum account). You know, for all this talk about huge customization potential that the Dev team keep spouting, I have noticed a fair amount of systems leaning the opposite way. I distinctly remember "customization" being a buzzword bandied about heavily during BlizzCon panels (over 96 billion character builds anyone?).
When I first heard about auto-stats, I was dismayed. There are pros and cons to the automating of attributes, but one thing is certain - it limits customization. This fact cannot be argued against. It may indeed prove to be a better system, but it definitively limits customization.
Oh well, right? We can compensate for that with Traits and the Talisman. Traits are sweet. There will likely be plenty of tension on where we spend our points (a good thing), and it gives us the opportunity to boost attributes if we so choose.
The Talisman is where it gets juicy though. A fully dedicated attribute modifier system. Say I want to boost Critical Rating, or Spell Power, or HP, but I could not spare enough Trait points to do that. Here's where I do that! Yey!
But alas, the Talisman has been killed. From what Bashiok says in the post, the removal of the Talisman was basically because it was "pretty boring," and "requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats."
I can't believe this. Sure, the Talisman might not be as exciting to a 3rd grader as runes that give all sorts of pretty lights and damage and bonuses to your spells. But it had a unique purpose. It allowed for characters to be diverse.
Blizzard keeps on dumbing this game down, as if they are designing it for the aforementioned 3rd grader. They have to realize that there are also hardcore fans out there as well, and they keep chipping away at Diablo mechanics that we hold dear.
If someone finds the Talisman boring, then they don't have to freaking use it. I would bet that a first time Action RPG player (Blizzard's seemingly target audience) would find the Blacksmith Artisan "pretty boring" when playing a Wizard, but that doesn't mean that Wizards should not get a Blacksmith... or does it Blizzard? I find the Monk to be boring, should I not get to roll Monks, or play with them online?
Thanks for the responses, although the systems looks to work as I feared. I was really hoping I could take like 10 skills, while only having 7 ACTIVE at a time. This really seems to create a rift between PvP and PvE builds/characters, which I am initially unsupportive of.
For instance, an interesting PvP build for a barb looks something like... Ground Stomp/Ignore Pain/Leap Attack/Sprint/Ancient Spear/Taunt/Ferocious Charge right off the top of my head.
You've got the Gap Closers in Leap, Sprint, Charge, Spear, and Ignore Pain to shrug off stuns and slows. Ground Stomp gives you AoE stun, and Taunt and Spear also give some CC effects, which we all know are good. We have no real numbers yet, but I imagine that like all arena games (DotA, LoL, WoW arenas) that movement spells/gap closers are at a premium, and CC is almost required to kill someone. The damage output seems sort of lite, as many of the spells don't deal damage, but let's just use this build as an example.
If I were to take this Barb into PvE... I would probably do terrible. Again, we don't have numbers, but I really cannot see how a build with 2 zero-damage move spells and single target chasing spells could hope to do as well against the endless hordes of Diablo as a build that were something like Whirlwind/Earthquake/Wrath of the Berserker/Seismic Slam/Rend/Cleave/Ground Stomp.
I would really much prefer having more diversity/customization in my characters. If I could take as many skills as a I want, and only have 7 at a time (maybe lock those 7 in during an arena battle), I could mix/max to my desires better. Maybe I only max Taunt/Ground Slam/Ignore Pain/Whirlwind, and put 1 point into Leap/Sprint/Spear/Charge/Earthquake/Seismic slam.
Once again I am sorely let down but the D3 dev team...
After browsing over the newfound screenshots from a Chinese website, I have a question regarding skills in D3. Hopefully someone who has played the game has some insight on this...
So I know that there will be a maximum of 7 hot-keyed skills available at any given moment. This is great, as 2 skills on the mouse was not enough (unless you had 12 fingers on your left hand to get all the F-keys) to make for diverse combat.
My question is, how many skills can a character acquire? Is a character limited to only taking 7 skills, or can you take as many as you want? There is this one screenshot in particular that seems to show an interface indicating that a character can select one tier 1 skill, one tier 2 skill, and so forth.
For example, I have just hit the level 3 with my Barbarian, and tier 2 skills have become available. I decide to take Ground Stomp because it's awesome. Soon after this, I hit level 4. Can I spend a point to take Ignore Pain, or will Ground Stomp be the only tier 2 skill that I will ever have?
I started playing D2 to pass the time and get back into the Diablo feel... but now I remember how ridiculously rare the good items are in that game (after about a month of playing I have two 85s, and some good donated gear but it's nearly impossible to find good items and runes).
That and Pallys and Sorcs really make you wonder why you are playing the other classes...
I really like how D3 is looking for the most part, but one thing that continues to irk me is how they seem to be oversimplifying some things.
Sure, it is good in some aspects, but sometimes it feels like Blizzard is treating us like autistic children. Don't let them spend their own stats because they will screw it up! Don't let them take Followers into MP because it's too chaotic! (They also cite voiceover repetition as a reason to not include them in MP... it is very easy to turn off their voice behavior...)
Too chaotic? Isn't this a Diablo game? Aren't we SUPPOSED to be exploding 12 monsters of varying roles at a time, dodging big hits, while leaping towards the Unactivated Vessels/Fallen Shaman before they cause bigger problems, all the while trying to juke the ice bolts that a group of magic monsters is spewing all over the screen?
I really don't think allowing Followers into the MP game is going to cause any mental overloads. The party size in D3 is four, and if we allowed followers it would skyrocket to eight (ZOMG! That's even moar then SEVEN!). Scary stuff, I know, but really eight is not as astronomically huge as it sounds at first. Most of us D2 veterans were able to do Hell Baal runs without getting too confused. Baal spawned between infinity and infinity (or was it between 8 and 12, oh well, Blizzard thinks we can't tell the difference anyways) minions at a time, but at least a few of us were able to apply our rocket scientist brains, and figure out a way to beat them (for those without PhDs, the secret is continue clicking your mouse like you have been for 10 hours).
Even when you had a party size of 12,000 (I mean 8, gosh they are both so high, sometimes I have trouble with numbers beyond 4) including a Summoner Necro, Summoner Druid, a Sorc that thew out hundreds of ice bolt orbs, an Hdin that tossed out endless hammers, and 4 other guys trying to steal your loot, along with 8 hirelings (all from Act 2 :D), I could understand what was going on. And this was in a sprite based game running at 800x600.
Yes, most people on the internet are retards (you probably think that of me, and I will think that of most people I encounter in D3 battle.net) but come on, Blizz. Our brains have the capability of registering eight friendly 3D models at a time. It won't be too chaotic. This is a freaking Hach N Slash.
We beat Golden Axe, even though it supported up to 3 players (admittedly, a gargantuan task at the time). When Turtles in Time came out, I bought a book and unraveled the mystery of the quantity of 4 (it almost killed me). It's been a few years, and I am ready for the next challenge (maintaining sanity with 4 WDs and 4 Followers on my screen)!
Pretty sure it will be Barb, with Wizard as a close second. I think this will be the case because they are so iconic (smashy smashy and pew pews) and so familiar to the Diablo crowd. After a while, I expect the diversity to even out, but upon the release of the beta as well as the retail release, I expect the population to look like this...
MOST COMMON
1st: Barb (Simple, sturdy, appealing)
2nd: Wizard (It's a wizard... familiar, powerful, SPELLZ!)
3rd: Demon Hunter (Dark and mysterious, I expect this to be the most popular amongst the younger age demographic)
4th: Witch Doctor (New class, cool spells, unfamiliar, but has pets! Not instantly visually appealing to everyone)
5th: Monk (Someone had to be in last place, and by process of elimination it is the monk.)
LEAST COMMON
After the initial wave of new characters created upon beta launch and then later retail release, I think it will even out, as far as mains go. After it evens out, I think the Wizard and WD will start pulling ahead, and for it to stay that way for a while. Several months after that, I think the most common will be whoever ends up being the best PvE loot gatherer (even with crafting and trading, someone is gonna have to go make dead monsters), and the 2nd most common will be the best PvPer. Note: There may not be a mathematical, always best, but there will definitely be a best that the community at large somewhat agrees upon.
Hid something in a public game out in the blood moor. He found it right before I got back to him. Tried futilely to hit him
I did give him a good old fashion tongue-lashing though. That felt good.
I have always done what I call a SafeTransfer. Make a game, WITH A PASSWORD, and stay in it for 5-10 mins. I usually host the game with a my top level and do a Meph/Baal run to occupy the time requirement (alternatively, you can host with a low level guy and do some quests, look for WPs, or do TristRuns).
Anywho, after 10 minutes I believe, the game becomes legit. You can drop items next to your stash in the Rogue Encampment, and since it's passworded (remember that password!), nobody will join, and the game will stay active with nobody in it. Log out, pick the character to transfer to, rejoin game, items are there!
I often do this with passwords as simple as "z" and nobody will ever join because pwed games don't show up on the game list.
I am on USWest, D2:LoD Expansion, Softcore LADDER.
I would like to obtain a Sigon's Visor (the Sigon's set Helm piece).
I do not have much of value to trade, some lv 40-60 gear uniques, a Necro Summoning +1 GC, no top tier stuff, but I do have plenty of Perfect Gems of all sorts. I have a few high end runes as well, and many pieces of other sets.
Anyone who has Sigon's Visor for trade, let me know!
Thank you for the replies, especially from those who actually read my post. I do understand that it isn't the end of the world for customization; like others and myself know, there are still lots of areas in the game that allow customization and even attribute boots and what not.
I guess my primary gripe is how it seems like Blizz is holding our hands on this one. The philosophy seems sound initially - don't LET the players screw up their attributes
(seems good), everyone will figure out a "best" that makes attributes sort of pushed into automatic builds anyways (seems reasonable), etc. However, I still am against it.
I'm gonna play a little devil's advocate here, but bear with me. Does this mean that Blizz should ask you if you are playing a DPS monk or Support monk, and then automatically level traits, stats, and auto-sell items that it doesn't deem necessary? Should the game take note that you are a Wizard with Staff Specialization and then automatically sell/salvage Wizard wands that you find, because it doesn't want you to "screw up"? Obvsiouly, most people would say no, that's a terrible idea, and they would be right.
Anywho, I feel like I'm a one man army against Blizzard and Diablo 3 fans, so I won't keep this thread alive any longer. Still, it sort of irks me seeing one of the traditional systems of Diablo being taken out, even though it's probably not as impactful as I think it looks right now.
0
In all reality, any player who is worth his salt in the problem solving department will likely deduce that maxing each Artisan only one time each on their account will save them trouble and gold. So then, when I want to craft a nifty staff for my lvl 2 Wizard, I won't start from the ground up, I will just log onto my lvl 60 Barbarian who has all Artisans maxed, and mule the item over with the shared stash.
However, it seems that Artisans are "unlocked" on characters via quests. In my ideal world, the way the system would work is that you have shared Artisans on account, but they are available to a character only after that character completes the quest. This way, if I find a really cool new recipe on my second character, I don't have to go through the trouble of muling the recipe to my main, crafting it, then muling the item back.
0
Beyond that, inpecting a player requires thought and the ability to read; two traits that Blizzard does not think we posses (if this were implemented, it would scare off the casual croud amirite Blizz).
0
It will be nice in some aspects (not having to get 237 Str to wear a freaking helmet), but this also means that Witch Doctors and Wizards will be vying for the same Plate Mail that a Barbarian does.
Inevitably, there will be some legendaries/uniques that are top tier and benefit ALL classes to a certain degree, and only having a level requirement means all classes will go after it.
Think like Stone Ring of Jordan, but there's also Stone Plate Mail of Jordan, Stone Wizard's Hat of Jordan, Stone Berserker Axe of Jordan, and Stone Leather Gloves of Jordan; all classes will be competing for the same exact armor pieces for several slots, instead of just rings and amulets.
0
It takes time to REMOVE features that are already in place. It DOES NOT take time to leave it as it is...
0
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/177442/status-of-company-wide-testing/
"requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats"
Maybe he is on to something after all. Perhaps items should be removed from the game. After all, items are yet another type of item. Also, clicking on them, let alone managing them, is far too complicated a task to expect the target audience to carry out.
I would wager that player stats are on the chopping block as well, as to identify them, you need to posses the ability to read (ie: not in Diablo 3 target audience). Maybe instead of Attack, Defense, Willpower, etc, they could just use pictures of a sword, a shield, etc.
Wait, different pictures are complicated. Just use a big happy face to indicate player stats, and instead of using complex numbers, the happy face smile just gets bigger and bigger the more it increases.
0
Alright, enough with the Troy McClure impersonation. The Talisman is gone. I have been a fierce opponent of customization reduction since day 1 (though I only recently started a forum account). You know, for all this talk about huge customization potential that the Dev team keep spouting, I have noticed a fair amount of systems leaning the opposite way. I distinctly remember "customization" being a buzzword bandied about heavily during BlizzCon panels (over 96 billion character builds anyone?).
When I first heard about auto-stats, I was dismayed. There are pros and cons to the automating of attributes, but one thing is certain - it limits customization. This fact cannot be argued against. It may indeed prove to be a better system, but it definitively limits customization.
Oh well, right? We can compensate for that with Traits and the Talisman. Traits are sweet. There will likely be plenty of tension on where we spend our points (a good thing), and it gives us the opportunity to boost attributes if we so choose.
The Talisman is where it gets juicy though. A fully dedicated attribute modifier system. Say I want to boost Critical Rating, or Spell Power, or HP, but I could not spare enough Trait points to do that. Here's where I do that! Yey!
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/177442/status-of-company-wide-testing/
But alas, the Talisman has been killed. From what Bashiok says in the post, the removal of the Talisman was basically because it was "pretty boring," and "requires a lot of the player to invest time and energy into finding and storing yet another type of item just to add player stats."
I can't believe this. Sure, the Talisman might not be as exciting to a 3rd grader as runes that give all sorts of pretty lights and damage and bonuses to your spells. But it had a unique purpose. It allowed for characters to be diverse.
Blizzard keeps on dumbing this game down, as if they are designing it for the aforementioned 3rd grader. They have to realize that there are also hardcore fans out there as well, and they keep chipping away at Diablo mechanics that we hold dear.
If someone finds the Talisman boring, then they don't have to freaking use it. I would bet that a first time Action RPG player (Blizzard's seemingly target audience) would find the Blacksmith Artisan "pretty boring" when playing a Wizard, but that doesn't mean that Wizards should not get a Blacksmith... or does it Blizzard? I find the Monk to be boring, should I not get to roll Monks, or play with them online?
/rant
0
For instance, an interesting PvP build for a barb looks something like... Ground Stomp/Ignore Pain/Leap Attack/Sprint/Ancient Spear/Taunt/Ferocious Charge right off the top of my head.
You've got the Gap Closers in Leap, Sprint, Charge, Spear, and Ignore Pain to shrug off stuns and slows. Ground Stomp gives you AoE stun, and Taunt and Spear also give some CC effects, which we all know are good. We have no real numbers yet, but I imagine that like all arena games (DotA, LoL, WoW arenas) that movement spells/gap closers are at a premium, and CC is almost required to kill someone. The damage output seems sort of lite, as many of the spells don't deal damage, but let's just use this build as an example.
If I were to take this Barb into PvE... I would probably do terrible. Again, we don't have numbers, but I really cannot see how a build with 2 zero-damage move spells and single target chasing spells could hope to do as well against the endless hordes of Diablo as a build that were something like Whirlwind/Earthquake/Wrath of the Berserker/Seismic Slam/Rend/Cleave/Ground Stomp.
I would really much prefer having more diversity/customization in my characters. If I could take as many skills as a I want, and only have 7 at a time (maybe lock those 7 in during an arena battle), I could mix/max to my desires better. Maybe I only max Taunt/Ground Slam/Ignore Pain/Whirlwind, and put 1 point into Leap/Sprint/Spear/Charge/Earthquake/Seismic slam.
Once again I am sorely let down but the D3 dev team...
0
So I know that there will be a maximum of 7 hot-keyed skills available at any given moment. This is great, as 2 skills on the mouse was not enough (unless you had 12 fingers on your left hand to get all the F-keys) to make for diverse combat.
My question is, how many skills can a character acquire? Is a character limited to only taking 7 skills, or can you take as many as you want? There is this one screenshot in particular that seems to show an interface indicating that a character can select one tier 1 skill, one tier 2 skill, and so forth.
Here's the Barbarian skills on the wiki http://www.diablowiki.com/Barbarian_(Diablo_III)#Skills
For example, I have just hit the level 3 with my Barbarian, and tier 2 skills have become available. I decide to take Ground Stomp because it's awesome. Soon after this, I hit level 4. Can I spend a point to take Ignore Pain, or will Ground Stomp be the only tier 2 skill that I will ever have?
0
0
That and Pallys and Sorcs really make you wonder why you are playing the other classes...
0
Sure, it is good in some aspects, but sometimes it feels like Blizzard is treating us like autistic children. Don't let them spend their own stats because they will screw it up! Don't let them take Followers into MP because it's too chaotic! (They also cite voiceover repetition as a reason to not include them in MP... it is very easy to turn off their voice behavior...)
Too chaotic? Isn't this a Diablo game? Aren't we SUPPOSED to be exploding 12 monsters of varying roles at a time, dodging big hits, while leaping towards the Unactivated Vessels/Fallen Shaman before they cause bigger problems, all the while trying to juke the ice bolts that a group of magic monsters is spewing all over the screen?
I really don't think allowing Followers into the MP game is going to cause any mental overloads. The party size in D3 is four, and if we allowed followers it would skyrocket to eight (ZOMG! That's even moar then SEVEN!). Scary stuff, I know, but really eight is not as astronomically huge as it sounds at first. Most of us D2 veterans were able to do Hell Baal runs without getting too confused. Baal spawned between infinity and infinity (or was it between 8 and 12, oh well, Blizzard thinks we can't tell the difference anyways) minions at a time, but at least a few of us were able to apply our rocket scientist brains, and figure out a way to beat them (for those without PhDs, the secret is continue clicking your mouse like you have been for 10 hours).
Even when you had a party size of 12,000 (I mean 8, gosh they are both so high, sometimes I have trouble with numbers beyond 4) including a Summoner Necro, Summoner Druid, a Sorc that thew out hundreds of ice bolt orbs, an Hdin that tossed out endless hammers, and 4 other guys trying to steal your loot, along with 8 hirelings (all from Act 2 :D), I could understand what was going on. And this was in a sprite based game running at 800x600.
Yes, most people on the internet are retards (you probably think that of me, and I will think that of most people I encounter in D3 battle.net) but come on, Blizz. Our brains have the capability of registering eight friendly 3D models at a time. It won't be too chaotic. This is a freaking Hach N Slash.
We beat Golden Axe, even though it supported up to 3 players (admittedly, a gargantuan task at the time). When Turtles in Time came out, I bought a book and unraveled the mystery of the quantity of 4 (it almost killed me). It's been a few years, and I am ready for the next challenge (maintaining sanity with 4 WDs and 4 Followers on my screen)!
0
MOST COMMON
1st: Barb (Simple, sturdy, appealing)
2nd: Wizard (It's a wizard... familiar, powerful, SPELLZ!)
3rd: Demon Hunter (Dark and mysterious, I expect this to be the most popular amongst the younger age demographic)
4th: Witch Doctor (New class, cool spells, unfamiliar, but has pets! Not instantly visually appealing to everyone)
5th: Monk (Someone had to be in last place, and by process of elimination it is the monk.)
LEAST COMMON
After the initial wave of new characters created upon beta launch and then later retail release, I think it will even out, as far as mains go. After it evens out, I think the Wizard and WD will start pulling ahead, and for it to stay that way for a while. Several months after that, I think the most common will be whoever ends up being the best PvE loot gatherer (even with crafting and trading, someone is gonna have to go make dead monsters), and the 2nd most common will be the best PvPer. Note: There may not be a mathematical, always best, but there will definitely be a best that the community at large somewhat agrees upon.
0
I have always done what I call a SafeTransfer. Make a game, WITH A PASSWORD, and stay in it for 5-10 mins. I usually host the game with a my top level and do a Meph/Baal run to occupy the time requirement (alternatively, you can host with a low level guy and do some quests, look for WPs, or do TristRuns).
Anywho, after 10 minutes I believe, the game becomes legit. You can drop items next to your stash in the Rogue Encampment, and since it's passworded (remember that password!), nobody will join, and the game will stay active with nobody in it. Log out, pick the character to transfer to, rejoin game, items are there!
I often do this with passwords as simple as "z" and nobody will ever join because pwed games don't show up on the game list.
0
I am on USWest, D2:LoD Expansion, Softcore LADDER.
I would like to obtain a Sigon's Visor (the Sigon's set Helm piece).
I do not have much of value to trade, some lv 40-60 gear uniques, a Necro Summoning +1 GC, no top tier stuff, but I do have plenty of Perfect Gems of all sorts. I have a few high end runes as well, and many pieces of other sets.
Anyone who has Sigon's Visor for trade, let me know!
0
I guess my primary gripe is how it seems like Blizz is holding our hands on this one. The philosophy seems sound initially - don't LET the players screw up their attributes
(seems good), everyone will figure out a "best" that makes attributes sort of pushed into automatic builds anyways (seems reasonable), etc. However, I still am against it.
I'm gonna play a little devil's advocate here, but bear with me. Does this mean that Blizz should ask you if you are playing a DPS monk or Support monk, and then automatically level traits, stats, and auto-sell items that it doesn't deem necessary? Should the game take note that you are a Wizard with Staff Specialization and then automatically sell/salvage Wizard wands that you find, because it doesn't want you to "screw up"? Obvsiouly, most people would say no, that's a terrible idea, and they would be right.
Anywho, I feel like I'm a one man army against Blizzard and Diablo 3 fans, so I won't keep this thread alive any longer. Still, it sort of irks me seeing one of the traditional systems of Diablo being taken out, even though it's probably not as impactful as I think it looks right now.