I don't understand having Golden Frenzy + Cleave. You already have a reliable stun, so the unreliable stun of Frenzy is kinda odd...and you claim you wana be spamming cleave...so where's the time for Frenzy?
Also, as a tank you're probably 1handing it, so cleave damage will be lower overall, and killing enemies with a team lobbing big arse spells into your surrounding pile will lead to few kills to proc Alabaster effect.
I'd say to either drop one of these skills for another utility (Revenge, Ignore Pain, or Ground Stomp) and swap the other to Indigo (Cleave) to stack mobs better (Frenzy) for added incidental AoE damage, or Crimson (Frenzy) to increase your overall damage output.
Furthermore, Alabaster is superior to Crimson war cry IMO...armor does little for spell damage and you will take some of that. Superstition is nice, but health works for ALL damage overall. Also, you should take Inspiring Presence over Brawler, this will synergize with the extra health from Alabaster War Cry nicely.
You can easily make up the damage from Brawler with a 5 stack crimson Frenzy (120% damage) and stun crap a ton with Seismic Smash (reliably) still.
A. What Mac said...rage with hard breaks in your post so we can read it.
B. None of the builds listed on this thread have Overpower.
C. None of these builds are relying on either of these skills for damage
D. As a tank, being hit a lot is going to proc Revenge a lot, so using it for healing is perfectly viable...if the 10% proc rate is not enough you can go for 30-something with the change of a rune.
E. My favorite build so far is based on Overpower/Revenge, and it will have a near 100% uptime on Overpower, and in most occasions same with Revenge. It's called synergy, more crit allows Overpower to proc enough to keep it up indefinitely barring mathematical freak accidents. And a 10% proc rate on Revenge is probably better than you think...especially in a horde focused game.
F. You should rage in the proper thread, plenty of Overpower/Revenge (the actual thing you are talking about) builds in threads, but NOT this one.
Perhaps more as a support role it would be effective? Having more spirit on hand when you need it, since you won't be spamming your support skills but you will save them for when needed.
I was going to say with Beacon of Ytar and all those expensive attacks, but that'd be easier to spend spirit as you got it haha.
Or, perhaps, it sounds sub-par in theory, but will turn out to be good in practice.
I feel, though, that Cleave isn't necessarily the go-to base attack though. You're going to be getting a ton of Fury taking all those hits, so likely you will be using your spender more than your generator skill. As such I came up with this:
Similar, but I took Bash over Cleave. Indigo runed allows you to use bash to buff Rend and Revenge (and I suppose Leap too). +80% damage is nothing to scoff at...that's almost as much as a crit, it'll be perma (if you don't mess up) and it can crit still for further damage.
Rend, this could go indigo, or crimson, but I think with taunt you will be fine with the 9yrd range that Crimson allows, with the ~30% damage boost. Alternatively, in really hard situations you can just go with Golden for the added heals.
Revenge I was thinking about Indigo for more uses, but less + free Fury would be better so you can spam the crap outa Rend while using a Bash every 3 or 4 seconds to maintain buff.
The rest I pretty much agree with! You need Crimson Threatening Shout for obvious reasons. Tough as Nails, and Inspiring Presence again...pretty no-brainer (Inspiring slightly less so still). As for the 3rd one, I think Bloodthirst would be preferable to 30% damage most of the time. I don't know that Revenge will be able to keep you alive by itself, but I suppose it depends on how hard you're getting hit and if you have emergency heals (monk or w/e) just in case.
Frenzy might even be nice if it allows you to get Rend off faster too, depending on just how high incoming damage generates Fury...and that would be 120% damage and 75% faster Rend swings.
Go dat! Knockback from bash is meh (in fact, I think bash is rather crap unless you have a damage build that uses 2hander and wants 13 rage per basic hit) as a tank. All attacks are based off weapons damage, so I'm assuming weapon speed is how fast all attacks go off. So with massive fury coming from damage, take attack speed buff to help spend that fury and be sure you can hammer out Revenge (might wana go Indigo revenge at this point depending on incoming Fury).
I don't see why you'd want cleave with Frenzy, personally. To me, Frenzy is important to accomplish one thing:
MASS numbers of attacks (my preferred playstyle heh) that benefit from flat bonuses due to the sheer number of attacks.
With this in mind, what do we have to benefits from each attack by itself as opposed to, say, % bonuses that matter not what your atk speed is?
Well, first off we have Weapon Master: +1 fury per hit with our signature weapons type. What barb wont use Mighty weapons? Probably none, so Frenzy builds benefit (almost exclusively in fact) from this bonus. Who cares if you add 1 fury gain to your 13 fury bash or 11 Fury Cleave after all? Not as much as 1 per hit every quarter second
The second thing we have is criticals! Sure, crits double damage (2.5 with Ruthless, i'll get to that) so all weapons are good; however, check out some of our runes:
Battle Rage - Golden (Into the Fray) 7 Fury per crit
Battle Rage - Obsidian (Swords to Ploughshares) 20% chance of stuff or globes dropping per crit
Hammer of the Ancients - Golden (Birthright) 55% stuff or globes per crit (And I think this is per mob, AoE attack)
Sure, 2/3 of these are for something...non-optimal...for damage. But for farming, it is quite strong to say the least.
I'm guessing 100% crit on Hammer is easy to get, all you need is 22% crit from items...this is as long as Overpower and Revenge buff's are always up (Overpower is easy, revenge is the only real X-factor, but shouldn't be hard as a barb in the thick of it).
And your basic attacks would be critting nonstop...this either gives you amazing chances for drops while farming (Not to mention these two skills double as heals due to globes popping outa the monsters) or ridiculous Fury generation while you do a combat build like so:
This build, however, is rather squishy without the globes or any real defense...though one of the strongest Berserker builds I can think of; Rend being one of the best Fury dumps I can see that is also an AoE attack. This synergizes with Frenzy being single-target, and buffing your damage while generating insane levels of Fury.
Which brings me back to my first point: With Frenzy, Battle Rage w/ Golden rune, and crit stacking...you should outproduce bash or cleave in fury by leaps and bounds. Each hit generates 3 fury base at 60. Weapon Master increases that to 4. Animosity either increases that to 5, or 4.4 (more likely). And every crit adds a whopping 7! That almost doubles the rage gen per hit...and you are attacking at ridiculous speeds meaning that flat 7 bonus per crit is going to count for tons of Fury generation over the other two options.
Then, you get to find a fun skill to dump that Fury on! There is actually a number of choices...but I feel Rend is best for pure damage (switching to Crimson Hammer on bosses w/o adds perhaps). There are, then, a number of choices to add survival if you need. Dropping damage output from rend for Life gain would work...especially since you can just use Rend so much you would start to get massive ticks of healing coming in.
Revenge and Overpower are also AoE attacks, that are Fury free! Overpower will be spammable, but Crimson Rend will do far more damage, etc.
Lots of choices in this game...I'm adoring it as i've said in other posts (sorry if you've read this a few times ). I just can't wait to get my hands on this game.
If you are going without a fury dump, you might as well take Berzerker Rage. +20% damage for "free" you might as well take it. Inspiring Presence is the obvious candidate to swap it for...I suppose the question could be: is 20% more DPS > 1% of 60% of your total health (the amount that IP is healing you for, the extra length is rather moot since you can just war cry followed by Battle Rage. Of course...there is a lot to be said for not having to refresh shouts every 30 seconds.
This whole 6 skill limit system is really interesting, I must say.
I would say something like this would be better for farming.
You have Frenzy with Weapon master (Hopefully a Mighty Axe in mainhand)
I don't see how people say this is bad fury gen: you attack mighty fast and it synergizes well with Frenzy due to +1 fury per HIT. Flat bonus is superior with high attack speed...it might be a little less than say Bash with the +fury rune giving it 13 per attack with a fast set of weapons is nice; however, Battle Rage with Obsidian gives you % item on each crit! Again, favoring masses of attacks.
My question would be: how does animosity work with sub 10fury gains? Does it round up? If so, it's amazing as you always get 1 MORE fury per attack, but likely blizzard will have it track fractions behind the scenes and we gain, say 4.4 per hit, so every 3 hits will be 13 instead of 12.
The main thing with this build is the ridiculously high crit that synergizes with Birthright and Swords to Ploughshares. You'll have:
5% from Ruthless
5% (Idealy) from Weapon Master
4% from Battle Rage
22% from Overpower (once you get a crit, this should be up almost indefinitely from that point on with your number of attacks)
27% from Revenge. This should proc enough to keep it up being in the thick of it.
That's a flat +63% crit that you should be able to keep up nearly always! I think another 20 or 30 something crit from Precision shouldn't be hard by the time you have all these skills and runes setup, so you're looking at critting with almost every single hit: perma Overpower (free AoE damage) and lots of chances to proc Swords to Ploughshares (should help healing due to globes OR treasure).
Also; Hammer of the Ancients will have 100% crit if you can scrounge up a mere 22% crit on gear. This will be your fury dump, and give you a massive amount of extra drops! Globes and stuff both, limiting the need for, say Bloodthirst of Pound of Flesh (though PoF might be nice in higher difficulties with all the orbs you'll coax out of them with these drop procs).
As for concerns with killing speed in the OPs build: The rest is damage! Frenzy with Crimson rune for 120% damage boost. Battle Rage for the perma 30% damage, plus you have 3 AoE skills and likely at least 75% crit with +50% crit damage. This ammounts to a massive damage boost even for simple Frenzy attacks. Also, with such a high crit, you can probably just spam Overpower in AoE situations as needed, pushing Frenzies through to keep your stack up. Hammer is your fury dump, and will almost always crit, and does respectable damage as it's doing:
180% weapons damage x 2.5 ~ 450% weapon damage aoe hit in front of you!
Leap is there for utility and you can take Threatening Shout for survivablilty...but there is no point using an Obsidian rune since Hammer is also 20 Fury and will almost always crit and has 55% drop rather than 22%.
My thought was, taking this exact build for treasure hunting, and swapping out Hammer for Wrath of the Berserker with Crimson on a boss fight. Swapping Battle Rage to crimson as well...not set on my Leap Rune overall...all of em are kinda nice.
Basically, I'm loving the 6 skill + runes system a freakin TON.
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Also, as a tank you're probably 1handing it, so cleave damage will be lower overall, and killing enemies with a team lobbing big arse spells into your surrounding pile will lead to few kills to proc Alabaster effect.
I'd say to either drop one of these skills for another utility (Revenge, Ignore Pain, or Ground Stomp) and swap the other to Indigo (Cleave) to stack mobs better (Frenzy) for added incidental AoE damage, or Crimson (Frenzy) to increase your overall damage output.
Furthermore, Alabaster is superior to Crimson war cry IMO...armor does little for spell damage and you will take some of that. Superstition is nice, but health works for ALL damage overall. Also, you should take Inspiring Presence over Brawler, this will synergize with the extra health from Alabaster War Cry nicely.
You can easily make up the damage from Brawler with a 5 stack crimson Frenzy (120% damage) and stun crap a ton with Seismic Smash (reliably) still.
All in all:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#dXgZSf!Wec!ZZaZcZ
Looks better based off your build...imo of course
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B. None of the builds listed on this thread have Overpower.
C. None of these builds are relying on either of these skills for damage
D. As a tank, being hit a lot is going to proc Revenge a lot, so using it for healing is perfectly viable...if the 10% proc rate is not enough you can go for 30-something with the change of a rune.
E. My favorite build so far is based on Overpower/Revenge, and it will have a near 100% uptime on Overpower, and in most occasions same with Revenge. It's called synergy, more crit allows Overpower to proc enough to keep it up indefinitely barring mathematical freak accidents. And a 10% proc rate on Revenge is probably better than you think...especially in a horde focused game.
F. You should rage in the proper thread, plenty of Overpower/Revenge (the actual thing you are talking about) builds in threads, but NOT this one.
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I was going to say with Beacon of Ytar and all those expensive attacks, but that'd be easier to spend spirit as you got it haha.
Or, perhaps, it sounds sub-par in theory, but will turn out to be good in practice.
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I feel, though, that Cleave isn't necessarily the go-to base attack though. You're going to be getting a ton of Fury taking all those hits, so likely you will be using your spender more than your generator skill. As such I came up with this:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#adZUVg!eca!YZZbZa
Similar, but I took Bash over Cleave. Indigo runed allows you to use bash to buff Rend and Revenge (and I suppose Leap too). +80% damage is nothing to scoff at...that's almost as much as a crit, it'll be perma (if you don't mess up) and it can crit still for further damage.
Rend, this could go indigo, or crimson, but I think with taunt you will be fine with the 9yrd range that Crimson allows, with the ~30% damage boost. Alternatively, in really hard situations you can just go with Golden for the added heals.
Revenge I was thinking about Indigo for more uses, but less + free Fury would be better so you can spam the crap outa Rend while using a Bash every 3 or 4 seconds to maintain buff.
The rest I pretty much agree with! You need Crimson Threatening Shout for obvious reasons. Tough as Nails, and Inspiring Presence again...pretty no-brainer (Inspiring slightly less so still). As for the 3rd one, I think Bloodthirst would be preferable to 30% damage most of the time. I don't know that Revenge will be able to keep you alive by itself, but I suppose it depends on how hard you're getting hit and if you have emergency heals (monk or w/e) just in case.
Frenzy might even be nice if it allows you to get Rend off faster too, depending on just how high incoming damage generates Fury...and that would be 120% damage and 75% faster Rend swings.
Whoa, in fact:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fdZUVg!eca!ZZZbZa
Go dat! Knockback from bash is meh (in fact, I think bash is rather crap unless you have a damage build that uses 2hander and wants 13 rage per basic hit) as a tank. All attacks are based off weapons damage, so I'm assuming weapon speed is how fast all attacks go off. So with massive fury coming from damage, take attack speed buff to help spend that fury and be sure you can hammer out Revenge (might wana go Indigo revenge at this point depending on incoming Fury).
Weeee! Fun theorycrafting, wtb game noa
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MASS numbers of attacks (my preferred playstyle heh) that benefit from flat bonuses due to the sheer number of attacks.
With this in mind, what do we have to benefits from each attack by itself as opposed to, say, % bonuses that matter not what your atk speed is?
Well, first off we have Weapon Master: +1 fury per hit with our signature weapons type. What barb wont use Mighty weapons? Probably none, so Frenzy builds benefit (almost exclusively in fact) from this bonus. Who cares if you add 1 fury gain to your 13 fury bash or 11 Fury Cleave after all? Not as much as 1 per hit every quarter second
The second thing we have is criticals! Sure, crits double damage (2.5 with Ruthless, i'll get to that) so all weapons are good; however, check out some of our runes:
Battle Rage - Golden (Into the Fray) 7 Fury per crit
Battle Rage - Obsidian (Swords to Ploughshares) 20% chance of stuff or globes dropping per crit
Hammer of the Ancients - Golden (Birthright) 55% stuff or globes per crit (And I think this is per mob, AoE attack)
Sure, 2/3 of these are for something...non-optimal...for damage. But for farming, it is quite strong to say the least.
Take a build like this:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fTUhbY!Ybd!ZbaZbc
I'm guessing 100% crit on Hammer is easy to get, all you need is 22% crit from items...this is as long as Overpower and Revenge buff's are always up (Overpower is easy, revenge is the only real X-factor, but shouldn't be hard as a barb in the thick of it).
And your basic attacks would be critting nonstop...this either gives you amazing chances for drops while farming (Not to mention these two skills double as heals due to globes popping outa the monsters) or ridiculous Fury generation while you do a combat build like so:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#fTUhbY!Ybd!ZbaZbc
This build, however, is rather squishy without the globes or any real defense...though one of the strongest Berserker builds I can think of; Rend being one of the best Fury dumps I can see that is also an AoE attack. This synergizes with Frenzy being single-target, and buffing your damage while generating insane levels of Fury.
Which brings me back to my first point: With Frenzy, Battle Rage w/ Golden rune, and crit stacking...you should outproduce bash or cleave in fury by leaps and bounds. Each hit generates 3 fury base at 60. Weapon Master increases that to 4. Animosity either increases that to 5, or 4.4 (more likely). And every crit adds a whopping 7! That almost doubles the rage gen per hit...and you are attacking at ridiculous speeds meaning that flat 7 bonus per crit is going to count for tons of Fury generation over the other two options.
Then, you get to find a fun skill to dump that Fury on! There is actually a number of choices...but I feel Rend is best for pure damage (switching to Crimson Hammer on bosses w/o adds perhaps). There are, then, a number of choices to add survival if you need. Dropping damage output from rend for Life gain would work...especially since you can just use Rend so much you would start to get massive ticks of healing coming in.
Revenge and Overpower are also AoE attacks, that are Fury free! Overpower will be spammable, but Crimson Rend will do far more damage, etc.
Lots of choices in this game...I'm adoring it as i've said in other posts (sorry if you've read this a few times
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This whole 6 skill limit system is really interesting, I must say.
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I would say something like this would be better for farming.
You have Frenzy with Weapon master (Hopefully a Mighty Axe in mainhand)
I don't see how people say this is bad fury gen: you attack mighty fast and it synergizes well with Frenzy due to +1 fury per HIT. Flat bonus is superior with high attack speed...it might be a little less than say Bash with the +fury rune giving it 13 per attack with a fast set of weapons is nice; however, Battle Rage with Obsidian gives you % item on each crit! Again, favoring masses of attacks.
My question would be: how does animosity work with sub 10fury gains? Does it round up? If so, it's amazing as you always get 1 MORE fury per attack, but likely blizzard will have it track fractions behind the scenes and we gain, say 4.4 per hit, so every 3 hits will be 13 instead of 12.
The main thing with this build is the ridiculously high crit that synergizes with Birthright and Swords to Ploughshares. You'll have:
5% from Ruthless
5% (Idealy) from Weapon Master
4% from Battle Rage
22% from Overpower (once you get a crit, this should be up almost indefinitely from that point on with your number of attacks)
27% from Revenge. This should proc enough to keep it up being in the thick of it.
That's a flat +63% crit that you should be able to keep up nearly always! I think another 20 or 30 something crit from Precision shouldn't be hard by the time you have all these skills and runes setup, so you're looking at critting with almost every single hit: perma Overpower (free AoE damage) and lots of chances to proc Swords to Ploughshares (should help healing due to globes OR treasure).
Also; Hammer of the Ancients will have 100% crit if you can scrounge up a mere 22% crit on gear. This will be your fury dump, and give you a massive amount of extra drops! Globes and stuff both, limiting the need for, say Bloodthirst of Pound of Flesh (though PoF might be nice in higher difficulties with all the orbs you'll coax out of them with these drop procs).
As for concerns with killing speed in the OPs build: The rest is damage! Frenzy with Crimson rune for 120% damage boost. Battle Rage for the perma 30% damage, plus you have 3 AoE skills and likely at least 75% crit with +50% crit damage. This ammounts to a massive damage boost even for simple Frenzy attacks. Also, with such a high crit, you can probably just spam Overpower in AoE situations as needed, pushing Frenzies through to keep your stack up. Hammer is your fury dump, and will almost always crit, and does respectable damage as it's doing:
180% weapons damage x 2.5 ~ 450% weapon damage aoe hit in front of you!
Leap is there for utility and you can take Threatening Shout for survivablilty...but there is no point using an Obsidian rune since Hammer is also 20 Fury and will almost always crit and has 55% drop rather than 22%.
My thought was, taking this exact build for treasure hunting, and swapping out Hammer for Wrath of the Berserker with Crimson on a boss fight. Swapping Battle Rage to crimson as well...not set on my Leap Rune overall...all of em are kinda nice.
Basically, I'm loving the 6 skill + runes system a freakin TON.