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Do not trust whatever humans have to say about probability in an immersed context in which they have an interest in the outcome. The fallacies are everywhere, even apparent paradoxes. Graduate students in statistics are easily stumped if you transpose the problem into a practical context. It's part of how our brain works. At the most general level, the problem here is the change in perspective that comes when you've gotten the first rush of upgrades. Considering this, the drop rates are in my opinion way too high. When starting the season, all of us had a workable build within the second night (on hardcore even, where you take things more slowly).

From the perspective of getting the rudimentary gear required to enable a build, i.e. all set pieces with any roll, the drop rates are such that it doesn't feel like an accomplishment but rather something you are entitled to upon reaching 70. From the perspective of getting that exact item you so desperately want, with the roll you require, after the rest of your gear is already in the 98th percentile of quality, they will always and necessarily feel hopelessly low. You're not getting anything else to comfort you while waiting either, since you've got all but that one thing. And so you will look for ways to better your odds, and suddenly some fool claiming that the ancient furnace will drop from a particular weapon rack on a particular night of the week will start to seem like something you shouldn't dismiss off hand.

Twoflower: RiF exists because rifts are a better place to farm than bounties once you have the RoRG. Therefore, not having to do bounties to open rifts speeds up the process. Now that you have to do bounties anyway (albeit not as much), RiF cannot contribute. Illustration in solo play:

I want to farm t3 rifts, and I have 6 keys. I finish the rift in 5 minutes, and now I'm out of keys. I then do bounties for 15 minutes because I can't find the "#¤ exit to caverns of aranae until I've explored the entire map. Then I get enough keys to open another 5 minute rift. The efficiency of this is zero, obviously.

Enter RIF: I do the 5 minute rift, spend 1-2 minutes inviting 2-3 people to open the next one once they get their shards, and do another 5 minute rift. This should be roughly 3 times as efficient, and is also the reason Rift it Forward exists. So that we can farm continously were it is the most rewarding, and because a lot of us find bounties, split or otherwise, to be a waste of time.

Without the need for someone else to open your rifts for you, in order that you can save the time you are otherwise wasting in bounties, there can be no rift it forward. It would be illogical for me to spend the 1-2 minutes inviting 3 more people in.

Anyway, I like this change. As it is now, my group always keeps a spot open so we can invite someone else to open the next rift. Now we can play 4man again, and will at least have to spend slightly less time doing bounties.

I got Zuni chest and Manajuma knife after reset, before killing diablo. All it takes is one black swan. =)

I support this petition, as I'm struggling with the same thing now that I play melee. Force move and shift aren't solutions, in my opinion; having to use them to begin with is precisely the problem. Currently I'm holding shift whenever I fight, since the teleport on my spirit generator allows this. High APS and thunderclap with shift solve the problem, but whenever I use groupbuilds with quickening I end up with 20 blue items in my inventory. This, for me, is supremely annoying.

But finding the demonic essence behind the line of 5 blue items, three Aegis and a two-hander is equally frustrating. There should also be a toggle for "show blue items".

Edit: I'm also using combostrike, and have to put the other generator on "1" to avoid what the OP is talking about. Took a while to get used to counter-intuitive setups. Shouldn't be necessary.

Galice/Galiks here. Long-time WoW raider (US-Azgalor, now Kil'jaeden), former GM of Rehabilitation Clinic, etc... nerded some stuff out thought I'd share if it helps anyone out.

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1. Introduction

The enigma shrouding the drop rate of legendary items in Diablo 3 is a center of debate and mass confusion for the most efficient methods to obtain them. The choice of whether it's worth it to increase the difficulty level for an increase in finding legendary items, and the resulting quantitative gain associated with an increase in difficulty, is still unclear. For example, is it worth the massive time increase to suffer through Torment 6 (t6) monsters for a higher drop rate? Many would say of course not (and it turns out they're right).

It seems obvious that higher difficulty levels are just not worth it as all Torment difficulties drop the same items, but supposedly at a different rate. The aim of this report is to provide a quantitative analysis of the drop rates for torment difficulties, and provide a recommendation in farming through comparing drop rates in and outside of rifts. Additionally, magic find (MF) will be factored into the consideration as an extra factor.

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2. Equation Basis
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12413271220?page=13#241 This is 1.15^N as confirmed in this blue post, where N = torment difficulty level.
This was edited. Before there was an equation here that I had manipulated and used this as another reference as comparison to the 1.15^N in case either were right, but alas, 1.15^N was confirmed 3 days ago after I had done any work so only that will be shown. If for whatever reason the previous equation that was here that linked known monster health percent versus difficulty (which also can be thought of as increasing time to kill a mob - a logical way to warrant a drop rate increase), and the blue is just agreeing to release a critical piece of information that has never been released before so whimsically, then that information is no longer public. Your standard 1.15^N formula is shown, as was all along before alongside a separate approach. Nonetheless, the two were similar.

Everything taken into consideration is just looking at the legendary drop rate factor increase for varying parameters. It is in no way explaining the most effective place to farm, as that is left up to the player skill level, gear, speed in clearing, and density/type of monsters/chests in your exclusive rift or outside location. Under the assumption that there is no clear choice/multiple options, these graphs can help lead you in a certain direction.


3. Rifting versus Non-Rifting and Magic Find
Using these values, one can make a comparison against the legendary drop rate factor inside a rift (1.25x multiplier) versus outside of a rift. As one can see below, certain points can be made.

• Torment 1 rifting is slightly worse than drop rates from Torment 3 non-rifting.
• Torment 2 rifting is slightly worse than Torment 4 non-rifting.
• Torment 3 rifting is between Torment 4/Torment 5 non-rifting.
• Torment 4 rifting is near Torment 6 non-rifting

More conclusions can be drawn based on self-inquiries.

The question of magic find (MF) and its effectiveness in Reaper of Souls usually ends with 'MF NOT WORTH IT!' Below shows varying MF inside of a rift (assuming MF is multiplicative and legendaries receive 10% of their MF towards legendary drop rates [i.e. 150 MF contributes to 15%] i.e. 1.15*1.25*base_torment_droprate). The plot is shown below.

• Wearing no MF inside a Torment 2 rift is slightly less than Torment 4 farming outside of a rift
• Wearing 50 MF inside a Torment 2 rift is equivalent to Torment 4 farming outside of a rift
• Wearing 150 MF inside a Torment 2 rift is slightly less than Torment 5 farming outside of a rift
• Wearing 300 MF inside a Torment 2 rift is almost equivalent to Torment 6 farming outside of a rift

Therefore, as a recommendation for actual possible MF values (Nagelring 50%, Topaz in helm 41%, Cain's set 50%), we can say that for 150 MF farming a Torment 3 rift, we are about the same as Torment 6 outside of rifts. Since Torment 3 speed runs with 150 MF seem much more plausible with the current player/state of the game, this seems to grant the biggest bang for the buck if done consistently and at a proper pace. Comparisons for outside of rift for varying MF are omitted as most interest will likely fall upon the inside-rift scenario due to the 1.25x multiplier (which inherently acts like 250 MF as legendaries receive 10% of the MF value). Nonetheless, other conclusions can be drawn, and these graphs can be used to quantify other questions for varying player skill levels and character capabilities. Choices should be made based upon your own capabilities to optimize speed, location (possible dense area of chests outside rifts), and individual skill.


Battletag is Galice#1533 for questions/inquiries. Galice/Galiks/Galrosh @US-Kil'jaeden (retired for now) Feel free to join my diablo clan <Arch Druid> for a feisty environment and anyone looking for a full-clear heroic WoW guild check out http://www.archdruidguild.com/.

Quote from Dimebog

daisychopper: the point is that if you are geared/specced well enough to complete the event solo in a given difficulty, why would you even play that difficulty and not the next one since the rest of the content is obviously going to be beyond faceroll? Now I still don't know if that's even true (I don't even think all classes have an option to spec optimally for this) but I'm just trying to make you see the point of the OP which you are completely missing.

I assure you, I understand the OP's point completely.

You're approaching the problem as if it's binary - i.e., you're either good enough to get the bonus chest all the time (and the rest of the content is too easy) or never good enough to get the bonus chest (but the rest of the content is challenging) - and that's not the reality.

You can play on challenging content, fail to get the bonus chest most of the time (which is where it seems the OP is), rise in power over time until you can get it all the time, and then sure, you might decide to move on to the next difficulty and you'll be back to failing to get the bonus chest most of the time.

But that doesn't mean the bonus chest needs to be tuned down; it just means you have to keep working until you can handle it. That's called progression. It's the entire point of the game. Hence my response:

Don't ask to nerf the challenge; rise to it.

Quote from whorebeast

Whether or not the accounts should be rolled back is uninteresting to me, as it is a trivial sanction compared to bans. But so is the benefit of the exploit we are talking about here, chest farming, and the effects of an eventual backlash on general balancing should be, I would estimate, negligible. Of course, who knows.

Sorry to barge in, but I think this is a really interesting discussion.

I think a big part of the problem is the ultra-social gaming world we live in today; I fundamentally agree that a negligible exploit is, well, negligible, but that's so much more rare than it was in the past because today that shit gets downright *broadcast* the second it's discovered, and becomes widespread. It's much harder to say "live and let live" because there was a time when exploits would be relatively unknown and for the most part, people would just play the game.

As Bagstone points out, you get a couple of really influential members of the community who make a living playing the game, and a big chunk of the community follows in their footsteps. As an old man in terms of gaming culture, I'm shocked at how often I see streamers cited as some kind of authority on how the game should be played. I understand the mentality, but it's just way too pervasive.

And then those people turn around and pan the game for being broken. I used to watch Kripparian's videos and think to myself, "Well of course you have these complaints, you've played the game for several thousand hours. You need to go outside." But then you see other players with the same complaints, and they're like paragon 30. It's just toxic.

Quote from VTurth

If I could just make one main in D2 with access to all skills boredom would have settled in a lot quicker.

I think this is exactly what Overneathe (and Ruksak) were at least attempting to point out to you.

NOT EVERYONE finds rolling new toons to "try out new builds" an enjoyable way to spend their time. In fact, if it were a fact that people by and large did enjoy that, then Blizzard never would have touched that particular aspect of the game. But they did have lots of feedback and that feedback led them to believe that the majority of the players really didn't like that paradigm, so they changed it.

Just because YOU find it fun doesn't mean that EVERYONE finds it fun. I know I hated the fuck out of rerolling to be able to spend talent points in a different manner. I loathed it. The moment I started playing WoW I realized how much of a waste of my time it was to have to start a new Necromancer just to try out some different skills. It was like an epiphany when I realized just how much I had been wasting my time.

Besides, if EVERYONE wanted a game whereby you had to reroll to "reset" your character then PoE would surely have taken off by now since that's one of it's biggest features. Alas, PoE has even bigger playerbase issues than D3 has ever had. That should tell you that people who want a tough-as-nails hardcore experience are a minority.

There is actually evidence to suggest that MOST PEOPLE didn't actually like having to reroll their toons to try out new abilities. I'm not going to go so far as to say that's a fact, but there definitely is evidence that points to that particular conclusion.

I really wish people like you would stop acting like everything D2 did was perfect. We know, for a fact, that many people hated the fact that you couldn't "respec" your toon in D2. Why do we know that? Because eventually D2 added that feature. The fact that they implemented it means they had to have received quite a bit of feedback on the subject that pointed to the general dissatisfaction level. You can ignore this all you like, you can tell us how integral you feel it is to the ARPG genre, but it's pretty obvious that your opinion on the subject DOES NOT represent the majority.

Like I said... if being forced to reroll a new character to "respec" is something you feel is absolutely necessary then, please, vote with your actions and go play PoE. Show Blizzard. But, honestly, if everyone who felt that were the case left D3 today I'm betting it wouldn't even register on the "population" map because I sincerely doubt that anyone believes that feature is anywhere close to that important.

I could be wrong, though, and I urge everyone who thinks my hypothesis is wrong to put it to the test.