I guess it depends what's constraining your build, if you are constantly running out of AP, you'll favor high damage low speed weapons like maces, and if you can't spend AP fast enough you'll favor faster weapons. I suspect people that take AP on hit runes will prefer fast weapons and people that go regen/sigless will prefer low speed high damage.
Wont comment on the second half of your post as i dont have enough understanding of talent trees etc to comment on the variations you have included in the specs, however something in the first point you make strikes me as inconsistant
Situation 1- Your attack speed is 1.0.
If you cast ray of frost you'll spend 20 arcane power every second.
But you also gain 10 arcane power every second.
The result is that you'll lose 10ap every second, so you can cast ray of frost for 10 seconds before getting out of ap.
Situation2- Your attack speed is 2.0
If you cast ray of frost you'll spend 40 arcane power every second.
But you still gain only 10 arcane power every second.
The result is that you'll lose 30 arcane power every second, so you can only cast ray of frost for 3.3 seconds before getting out of ap. Not 5 seconds.
This seems like an apples and oranges comparison, Situation 1 (S1) has spent 200 AP over 10 seconds while Situation 2 (S2) has spent 130 over 3.3?
Whats not taken into account is the Additional 70 AP that S2 will continue to generate over the 6.7 seconds, and more importantly the added damage and AP S2 can gain by casting thier signiture in the 6.7 seconds gained.
In both cases Damage per AP should be the same, but a faster weapon will allow more Signiture filler, and therefore additional damage and AP return (which means even more damage).
Whats not taken into account is the Additional 70 AP that S2 will continue to generate over the 6.7 seconds, and more importantly the added damage and AP S2 can gain by casting thier signiture in the 6.7 seconds gained.
In both cases Damage per AP should be the same, but a faster weapon will allow more Signiture filler, and therefore additional damage and AP return (which means even more damage).
We already proved a few posts ago that dps is a lot lower when you fill cast time with signature. Please read the whole thing.
We already proved a few posts ago that dps is a lot lower when you fill cast time with signature. Please read the whole thing.
What do you do after your 10 Seconds of casting RoF is up? Fast and Slow weapon speeds will have down time which needs to be accounted for in both scenarios.
The thing is that if you are going to use RoF its almost surely going to be with the 0 cost skill rune, as a regen tool with AP on crit, and a fast atk speed. If it has 0 cost then it doesn't matter. If you were going to use a channeled ability for damage, not regen you would go with disintegrate which has vastly more utility in most situtations. I just don't see there being a reason to use RoF outside of as a regn. It has the slow true, but you can use disintigrate and slow multiple enemies with a passive that will proc off more skills as well.
It does slightly less damage but does AoE damage instead, and outside of boss fights AoE is king. While there are more boss fights it seems in this game than in D2 (Havent counted so that could be wrong) it will still be the majority of our time is spent fighting large hordes of enemies. A single target channeled spell just isn't as efficient when it will cost AP and only slow one target, even if it does more damage.
Take into account that you will be moving quite a bit, and that even if you have a lower attack speed and are able to cast it longer, you still have to regen somehow. So this whole topic is a bit of a waste of time. Numbers are fun and all, but only if they have a practicle use. What's the practicality of this besides showing a design flaw in the way channeled abilites work.
Even using the zero cost skill rune, it does more single target damage then any other ability in the game including runes. (Purely singe target Arcane Orb can be runed to do more, but I'm talking straight up one target only.) And since it doesn't do AoE it's kinda pointless to use it as anything but a regen tool.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tired of the same regurgitated blue posts? Want more in depth coverage of
the aspects of the game you want to know about? Check us out!
I really think you are making this harder to understand than it has to be.
Seeing as this is a problem of the base mechanic of the wizard vs other classes. i am going to ignore a couple of issues.
I will ignore the use of specific runes or passives. Some of these change the problem for some skills depending of the build. But they dont change the main issue.
For classes the have both generators and spenders for their ressources, The attack speed doesn't matter as much for there overall damage. a faster weapon will mean less damage on spenders but faster regen due to faster attack on generators.
The wizard has no direct result over his regen. it is fixed.
if we can agree on the fact that the abilities that uses AP does more damage than signature spells, we can agree that the more you can use your spenders the better.
An ability does X weapon damage for Y AP. it doesn't matter if its channeled or singlecast. the faster your weapon the faster you can attack again.
So for every attackspeed cycle. you do X damage and pay Y AP in Z amount of time.
So here is the core issue: Slower weapons deals more damage per spend AP then fast weapons. In other classes this gets balanced out by an equally slower regen. But not for wizards, they are stuck with base regen.
Wether or not this difference gets "fixed" by the extra damage from orbs, we have no idea of knowing yet. Some abilities can get around this issue with certain runes. but that doesn't really matter. This is the difference is the base mechanic between AP and the other classes.
Situation 1- Your attack speed is 1.0.
If you cast ray of frost you'll spend 20 arcane power every second.
But you also gain 10 arcane power every second.
The result is that you'll lose 10ap every second, so you can cast ray of frost for 10 seconds before getting out of ap.
Situation2- Your attack speed is 2.0
If you cast ray of frost you'll spend 40 arcane power every second.
But you still gain only 10 arcane power every second.
The result is that you'll lose 30 arcane power every second, so you can only cast ray of frost for 3.3 seconds before getting out of ap. Not 5 seconds.
assuming situation1 weapon does 100dmg for 1.0aps and situation2 does 50dmg for 2.0 aps:
with the slow weapon you get: 215% of 100dmg for 1 second = 215dps while losing 10ap/sec
with the fast weapon if using the signature spell magic missile(143% rune) for 2 seconds for every 1 second you use the RoF you end up losing 10 arcane per sec which would be the same for the slow weapon which comes out to:
215+143+143=501. 501/3=167(tick avg) 167*2(aps)=334(combined damage%/sec)
334% of 50 damage = 167dps while losing 10ap/sec
ITT: Bad arguments against flawed refutations of incorrect assumptions using inconsistent math.
Not sure even where to start...
Start showing any incorrect assumptions or any inconsistent math.
The only assumptions we based ourselves are:
1-Arcane power regenerate every second, this regeneration is not effected by attack speed.
2-When channeling a spell like Ray of Frost or Disintegration you spend Arcane Power every cicle, not every second. It is affected by attack speed.
The rest is a consequence.
Both "assumptions" have been tested over and over on beta. And confirmed. (Actually there are a few more interesting details about channeled spells that weren't mentioned)
The consequences also were tested and confirmed.
I'm really curious to hear. (So many really dumb people...)
Let's say you have two choices: Weapon A -100 damage, 1.0 attack speed ->100dps Weapon B-60 damage, 2.0 attack speed -> 120dps
If you chose weapon B you can make a proper build to maximize your Ray of Frost usage. If you have Familiar (Arcanot) and the passive Astral Presence your ap regen goes from 10 to 14 and your total ap goes from 100 to 120. You can also use Storm Armor (Power of the Storm) to reduce the cost of every skill by 3 ap.
Now for Ray of Frost you have two choices:
Snow Blast-increases damage to 280%, but the cost remain 20ap
Cold Blood-reduces ap to 12, but the damage remains 215%
Let's try Cold Blood. With this build your regen is 14 ap every second and you're spending 9ap every cicle, 18ap every second. The result is that you'll lose 4ap every second and you'll be able to cast ray of frost for 30 long seconds without interruption.
How much dps? 215% of 60 is 129, double that (speed) and you're doing 258 dps.
If you chose Snow Blast however you won't be able to sustain your cast. You'll spend 17ap per cicle, 34 per second, only recovering 14. You'll lose 20ap every second, being able to cast during 6 seconds.
Now let's think about weapon A. The weapon hits harder, but it's slower and offers less dps overall. With the exact same build we'll try to cast Snow Blast. We'll spend 17ap every second (1.0 attack speed, remember) and recover 14ap every second, losing only 3ap every second. You can cast that for 40 seconds.
Now let's check the dps. 280% of 100 is 280, this time the speed multiplier is 1x so the final dps is 280.
What does that mean? That means you'll do more damage if you chose a weaker weapon.
In this section, you are trying to make some sort of comparison, but change 3 variables between each example. This makes any result moot, since you don't have a controlled variable. To use controlled variables, only change one thing per example, I'll even make a weapon C that it 50 damage with 2 attack speed, and a couple transition weapons in between (arguably the same item level as weapon A, but with identical listed dps so we aren't comparing apples to oranges): Weapon A -100 damage, 1.0 attack speed ->100dps Weapon B-60 damage, 2.0 attack speed -> 120dps Weapon C -50 damage, 2.0 attack speed ->100dps Weapon D-50 damage, 1.0 attack speed -> 50dps
So at this point, the only conclusion that you can make is that the same 'item level' and stated dps weapons do identical dps, that the 'higher item level' weapon with higher stated dps does higher dps, and that doubling you attack speed doubles your dps. Gee, that's so unintuitive...
Well, just to check, lets try out your fictional Cold blooded (fictional because until the game goes live, the final source for abilities is the blizzard site, which lists it as 0 cost)(idk, maybe this post has old build numbers and didn't get updated)(moot point for sake of argument).
Well look at that at that, same relative results between weapons as with the other ability.
"But wait" you say, "What about the durations!? The slower weapons let you use your ability for longer!" And I say, "So what?". You don't have a model for what you do during filler time, you don't list what ability you would use, etc.
So in conclusion, the same thing Blues stated months ago: Attack speed increases the pace of you combat, increasing resource gains(typically), values certain stats (ex: flat damage buff) more heavily then slow AS builds, and is a dps gain.
TLDR: you don't provide enough modeling to make any sweeping statements about attack speed's 'goodness'.
So in conclusion, the same thing Blues stated months ago: Attack speed increases the pace of you combat, increasing resource gains(typically), and values certain stats (ex: flat damage buff) more heavily then slow AS builds.
So all this shit is to say attack speed makes combat faster, favors +dmg and resource gain? Really? I mean, REALLY? Are you...
You don't have a model for what you do during filler time, you don't list what ability you would use, etc.
In fact we did. If you actually read the posts it's there. I had the trouble of showing how much dps you do when you can't sustain RoF for long and have to fill with a signature.
"What about the durations!? The slower weapons let you use your ability for longer!" And I say, "So what?".
No. The slower the weapons the more sustainable is using a more expensive version. In this case a more expensive version means higher dps.
You didn't refute anything. You didn't refute the assumptions, you didn't even mentioned them. And you didn't refute the math. You just raised a point that was raised before (and in a more intelligent way), which is really a point of someone who could not understand really really simple concepts such as: if you can sustain a more expensive/more dps version you gain dps.
It's really pitiful when somebody dumb as hell tries to appear intelligent. Sir, using "sophisticated" words such as assumptions, modelling, controlled variable, etc, doesn't make your argument any more logical or intelligent. It just tries to cover that what you're saying is absolutely obvious or dumb.
So I show that attack speed has the same dps gains and scaling as base damage for your example, contradicting your premise that it behaves strangely or unfavorably, and you call it stupid and attack the messenger? So, this conversation is going nowhere. GL in your little world.
So I show that attack speed has the same dps gains and scaling as base damage for your example, contradicting your premise that it behaves strangely or unfavorably, and you call it stupid and attack the messenger? So, this conversation is going nowhere. GL in your little world.
And since when the whole discussion was about attack speed? It's about the relation between attack speed and arcane power for channeled spells.
I never took as a premise that attack speed behaves strangely or unfavorably, rather the relation we were discussing the whole time.
You didn't even understand it? Talk about strange little worlds.
I love reading your posts Maerlimi. Very informative, and they really make sense to me. Hell, even before you did all the math I was on board because it is so obvious I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it first.
Casting faster drains your resources faster. This has been around since... well, since the first person played a spellcaster in the first video game. The interesting part is that in D3 it is a lot more direct to choose between a fast cast but weaker spells, and slower cast but stronger spells. Simply change your weapon type (since same-level weapons have similar dps ratings) and you can sustain a higher dps for longer.
One nitpick: its spelled "cycle" not "cicle". Unless you were using a word I've never heard before, which is quite possible.
You're right. But I'm not sure how that is different. You have a static regen, and casting faster drains faster. Makes sense to me.
Unless you're arguing that it shouldn't be like this? Maybe I missed the point.
Maybe? You sure missed the point.
The expected behavior of 'cast faster lose resource faster' would be linear. That is, if you double your speed you're expending your resource twice as much. It's not what happens with channeled spells for the wizard tho, and that's what we're talking about. You double your speed you're spending your resource almost 3 times faster, due to how channeled spells work in correlation to how arcane power works. It's not always like that, the behavior can vary wildly. Is that the same as 'cast faster lose resource faster'? Not really. Is that important? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a fact about game mechanics, some like to know these kind of things.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This seems like an apples and oranges comparison, Situation 1 (S1) has spent 200 AP over 10 seconds while Situation 2 (S2) has spent 130 over 3.3?
Whats not taken into account is the Additional 70 AP that S2 will continue to generate over the 6.7 seconds, and more importantly the added damage and AP S2 can gain by casting thier signiture in the 6.7 seconds gained.
In both cases Damage per AP should be the same, but a faster weapon will allow more Signiture filler, and therefore additional damage and AP return (which means even more damage).
We already proved a few posts ago that dps is a lot lower when you fill cast time with signature. Please read the whole thing.
What do you do after your 10 Seconds of casting RoF is up? Fast and Slow weapon speeds will have down time which needs to be accounted for in both scenarios.
It does slightly less damage but does AoE damage instead, and outside of boss fights AoE is king. While there are more boss fights it seems in this game than in D2 (Havent counted so that could be wrong) it will still be the majority of our time is spent fighting large hordes of enemies. A single target channeled spell just isn't as efficient when it will cost AP and only slow one target, even if it does more damage.
Take into account that you will be moving quite a bit, and that even if you have a lower attack speed and are able to cast it longer, you still have to regen somehow. So this whole topic is a bit of a waste of time. Numbers are fun and all, but only if they have a practicle use. What's the practicality of this besides showing a design flaw in the way channeled abilites work.
Even using the zero cost skill rune, it does more single target damage then any other ability in the game including runes. (Purely singe target Arcane Orb can be runed to do more, but I'm talking straight up one target only.) And since it doesn't do AoE it's kinda pointless to use it as anything but a regen tool.
Tired of the same regurgitated blue posts? Want more in depth coverage of
the aspects of the game you want to know about? Check us out!
Seeing as this is a problem of the base mechanic of the wizard vs other classes. i am going to ignore a couple of issues.
I will ignore the use of specific runes or passives. Some of these change the problem for some skills depending of the build. But they dont change the main issue.
For classes the have both generators and spenders for their ressources, The attack speed doesn't matter as much for there overall damage. a faster weapon will mean less damage on spenders but faster regen due to faster attack on generators.
The wizard has no direct result over his regen. it is fixed.
if we can agree on the fact that the abilities that uses AP does more damage than signature spells, we can agree that the more you can use your spenders the better.
An ability does X weapon damage for Y AP. it doesn't matter if its channeled or singlecast. the faster your weapon the faster you can attack again.
So for every attackspeed cycle. you do X damage and pay Y AP in Z amount of time.
So here is the core issue: Slower weapons deals more damage per spend AP then fast weapons. In other classes this gets balanced out by an equally slower regen. But not for wizards, they are stuck with base regen.
Wether or not this difference gets "fixed" by the extra damage from orbs, we have no idea of knowing yet. Some abilities can get around this issue with certain runes. but that doesn't really matter. This is the difference is the base mechanic between AP and the other classes.
assuming situation1 weapon does 100dmg for 1.0aps and situation2 does 50dmg for 2.0 aps:
with the slow weapon you get: 215% of 100dmg for 1 second = 215dps while losing 10ap/sec
with the fast weapon if using the signature spell magic missile(143% rune) for 2 seconds for every 1 second you use the RoF you end up losing 10 arcane per sec which would be the same for the slow weapon which comes out to:
215+143+143=501. 501/3=167(tick avg) 167*2(aps)=334(combined damage%/sec)
334% of 50 damage = 167dps while losing 10ap/sec
CD damage skills really get the shaft cuz they only do less dmg with faster weapons but equal dps.
And skills like arcane orb and meteor deplete your ap really fast anyways, so might as well do more dmg.
Not sure even where to start...
Start showing any incorrect assumptions or any inconsistent math.
The only assumptions we based ourselves are:
1-Arcane power regenerate every second, this regeneration is not effected by attack speed.
2-When channeling a spell like Ray of Frost or Disintegration you spend Arcane Power every cicle, not every second. It is affected by attack speed.
The rest is a consequence.
Both "assumptions" have been tested over and over on beta. And confirmed. (Actually there are a few more interesting details about channeled spells that weren't mentioned)
The consequences also were tested and confirmed.
I'm really curious to hear. (So many really dumb people...)
Weapon A -100 damage, 1.0 attack speed ->100dps
Weapon B-60 damage, 2.0 attack speed -> 120dps
Weapon C -50 damage, 2.0 attack speed ->100dps
Weapon D-50 damage, 1.0 attack speed -> 50dps
Weapon A, Snow blast, full build listed:
100 damage * 280% (for 40 seconds) = 280 DPS
Weapon B, Snow blast, full build listed:
60 *280% *2 (for 6 seconds) = 336 DPS
Weapon C, Snow Blast, full build listed:
50 *280% *2 (for 6 seconds) = 280 DPS
Weapon D, Snow Blast, full build listed:
50 *280% (for 40 seconds) = 140 DPS
So at this point, the only conclusion that you can make is that the same 'item level' and stated dps weapons do identical dps, that the 'higher item level' weapon with higher stated dps does higher dps, and that doubling you attack speed doubles your dps. Gee, that's so unintuitive...
Well, just to check, lets try out your fictional Cold blooded (fictional because until the game goes live, the final source for abilities is the blizzard site, which lists it as 0 cost)(idk, maybe this post has old build numbers and didn't get updated)(moot point for sake of argument).
Weapon A, Cold blooded, full build listed:
100 damage * 215% (For ever) = 215 DPS
Weapon B, Cold blooded, full build listed:
60 *215% *2 (For 30 seconds) = 258 DPS
Weapon C, Cold blooded, full build listed:
50 *215% *2 (For 30 seconds) = 215 DPS
Weapon D, Cold blooded, full build listed:
50 *215% (For ever) = 107.5 DPS
Well look at that at that, same relative results between weapons as with the other ability.
"But wait" you say, "What about the durations!? The slower weapons let you use your ability for longer!" And I say, "So what?". You don't have a model for what you do during filler time, you don't list what ability you would use, etc.
So in conclusion, the same thing Blues stated months ago: Attack speed increases the pace of you combat, increasing resource gains(typically), values certain stats (ex: flat damage buff) more heavily then slow AS builds, and is a dps gain.
TLDR: you don't provide enough modeling to make any sweeping statements about attack speed's 'goodness'.
So all this shit is to say attack speed makes combat faster, favors +dmg and resource gain? Really? I mean, REALLY? Are you...
...special?
In fact we did. If you actually read the posts it's there. I had the trouble of showing how much dps you do when you can't sustain RoF for long and have to fill with a signature.
No. The slower the weapons the more sustainable is using a more expensive version. In this case a more expensive version means higher dps.
You didn't refute anything. You didn't refute the assumptions, you didn't even mentioned them. And you didn't refute the math. You just raised a point that was raised before (and in a more intelligent way), which is really a point of someone who could not understand really really simple concepts such as: if you can sustain a more expensive/more dps version you gain dps.
It's really pitiful when somebody dumb as hell tries to appear intelligent. Sir, using "sophisticated" words such as assumptions, modelling, controlled variable, etc, doesn't make your argument any more logical or intelligent. It just tries to cover that what you're saying is absolutely obvious or dumb.
I never took as a premise that attack speed behaves strangely or unfavorably, rather the relation we were discussing the whole time.
You didn't even understand it? Talk about strange little worlds.
Casting faster drains your resources faster. This has been around since... well, since the first person played a spellcaster in the first video game. The interesting part is that in D3 it is a lot more direct to choose between a fast cast but weaker spells, and slower cast but stronger spells. Simply change your weapon type (since same-level weapons have similar dps ratings) and you can sustain a higher dps for longer.
One nitpick: its spelled "cycle" not "cicle". Unless you were using a word I've never heard before, which is quite possible.
Learn to read. Learn to understand.
Unless you're arguing that it shouldn't be like this? Maybe I missed the point.
Maybe? You sure missed the point.
The expected behavior of 'cast faster lose resource faster' would be linear. That is, if you double your speed you're expending your resource twice as much. It's not what happens with channeled spells for the wizard tho, and that's what we're talking about. You double your speed you're spending your resource almost 3 times faster, due to how channeled spells work in correlation to how arcane power works. It's not always like that, the behavior can vary wildly. Is that the same as 'cast faster lose resource faster'? Not really. Is that important? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a fact about game mechanics, some like to know these kind of things.