I don't think anything that's measured in multiples of minutes fits into the gameplay of a Diablo game. I do believe they work and add strategic consideration and challenge, but x-minutes is far too much. We're talking about battles that last no more than a few heart-pounding seconds, in most cases. The cooldown on, say, Blizzard in Diablo II worked for me. Anything in ~minutes feels and seems like a holdover from the focus of the favored gaming genre for the last decade, the MMO.
This, I believe, is the logical thing to be worried about when it comes to cooldowns in Diablo.
Will it feel natural with something taking that long to CD? Will the skill even be viable if it takes that long to CD? Will it even be useful in regular combat since it takes so long to CD?
Those are all questions I can understand. I consider them concerns as well and think they could impact the game negatively when it comes out.
The whole "it's a terrible balancing technique" thing makes no sense to me though. CDs have been around a while and can be very effective. I don't know how effective they can be when set at two minutes in a Diablo style game though.
D2 had skill cooldowns, you couldn't call 50 meteors instantly. There was a reason for it back then, and there's a reason now for 2 min cooldowns. I have played the game on Blizzcon 2010 and I can assure you that cooldowns hardly affect the gameplay, if at all. They just made "x" skill feel that much more powerful.
To me, in a real time action-roleplaying game like Diablo, time is as much a resource as health or mana/magic/spirit. Learning to manage your "time" is extremely important, that's even true in most MOBA's (LoL, HoN, DotA - who imho were born out of this genre of game). Having some skills be limited by this resource isn't that bad.
It's also not like 10 minute or 60 minute WoW-style cooldowns, it's 2 minutes. It means you can probably use it dozens of times in a normal 30 minute dungeon, you just have to choose the best situations for it instead of just spamming it.
If you played D2 in any serious level, you should probably know that it was a 1-skill-spamfest. Some classes sometimes used more than this, but it was usually that one skill spammed over and over again. Bone Spirit? Hammerdin? D2 was almost not fun in the end-game, but getting there was so nice and the end-game loot was so elusive that people would often forget it and just enjoy the ride.
If cooldowns make the top-tier skills feel more powerful by all means I love it.
That's just not possible how can a spell you get at level 1 be as powerful as a skill you get at level 30? The level 30 skill has to be powerful enough at skill lvl 1 to kill the current monsters. The skill from lvl 1 will need to have it's level raised to be effective at clvl 30. With both skills at lvl 15, the one you got at lvl 30 will always be stronger.
Then why not just make every skill accessible at level 1 instead. That's true diversity right there. Having them do balanced damage with one another while choosing different paths is more rewarding then just using shitty spells in the meantime for a cool downed spell. I agree i love doing insane damage but to be fair it should be balanced. In making all skills accessible at lvl 1 you allow each player to define themselves the way they want allowing the game to have the customization it deserves to have. I don't want any cookie cutter build that says oh these skills complement this high end skill the best so lets all get these. And to everyone's point saying ridiculous costs of resources is horrible, it really is not. I'm not saying take away the whole globe, im saying take a large significant chunk so you can't use it more than once, while leaving some left for other skills. this works perfectly with wizards and Dh's at least im not sure how WD's mana refills so i'll have to look into it same with the monk resources, but fury if its like WoW were you have to charge it up by being hurt or attacking normally it will work the same as the wizard. I don't want to have built up all that arcane power or fury just to have to wait to use some ridiculously overpowered spell. I should be able to cast at my choosing when given the opportunity. I'm not saying spammable but more often then just 2 minutes, because honestly if it's like this then i'm probably not gunna get any tier 7 skills and just opt for better skills that can be used in conjunction with traits to give them equal damage. Their reasoning is honestly just retarded.
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I think people are missing the point and also keep fearing the WoW rotation build is what this is leading to. I first wanted to say that as far as we can tell most of everything here is just pure imagining. If you read the wiki on the abilities we assume are the ones with 2 minute cool downs it actually makes sense. You don't want to keep recasting summoned warriors, nor would it be fun to rely on just that ability. The earthquake ability probably is a great way to deal massive AoE damage but again would not want to over rely on it. The buff one, well of course you won't intend to spam that, so what is the point?
Oh wait here, Equinox, you can use your locust swarm at end game, who said it wasn't viable? Fom all I've read you get 7 skills, just that. If one of your skills is locust swarm then it will be at the end. That is the reason you get 7 button in the game. As long as you can have a use for it then use it. You uber WD ability won't take away your locust, just add something strategic.
To me, skills being balance means that they all fill a niche. Some are better for AoE, some are better for single targets. Some are weaker but can be spammed for the smaller/weaker mobs, and some are powerful but have drawbacks (cooldowns). I understand that no-one wants to sit around for 2 minutes while a skill cools down, but you won't be sitting there doing nothing while you wait. If I cast Wrath of the Berserker, I'm probably going to want to get up close and personal with cleave, rend, ww etc. I'm not going to be pissed that I can't cast it again for 2 minutes or whatever. If the boost only lasts for 15 seconds, then I need to reevaluate my strategy when it wears off. Am I still doing enough damage after it wore off? If I am, keep at it, and if the cooldown ends while I'm still fighting, I'll cast it again. If I can't stand toe-to-toe with them after the buff ends, then I need to back off and try a different strategy, maybe using some stun moves, like ground stomp, or ranged skills, like seismic slam. I want to pick and choose which skill to use in different situations, and I think cooldowns help with that. And I trust blizzard to change the cooldowns from 2 minutes if they do end up being too long. That's what the beta is for anyways.
Oh wait here, Equinox, you can use your locust swarm at end game, who said it wasn't viable? Fom all I've read you get 7 skills, just that. If one of your skills is locust swarm then it will be at the end. That is the reason you get 7 button in the game. As long as you can have a use for it then use it. You uber WD ability won't take away your locust, just add something strategic.
I know this wasn't addressed to me but still i have to answer this one. Yeah it kinda does make it less viable. If you had locust swarm which deals 50 initial damage with an extra 10 for 10 seconds as DoT, Or Pit of fire, which may have no cd that does initial 500 damage or even parasite that deals 1k damage but has a 2 min cooldown, which do you use? obviously the tier 7 parasite and when not usable you use the other better skill that is pit of fire. Now explain how that's fair... and explores diversity, it's not and it doesn't. It denies the viability of lower tier skills during endagame. Which brings me to my point that we should be able to access all skills at level one, but again only choosing seven allows for diversity in what you want, not whats the "best" or most Op'ed
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Also keep in mind that we have no idea what those skills actually are. They might be something like complete invulnerability for 5 seconds. They can't exactly put that on a 15 second cooldown.
agreed but then we shouldn't have something like that in the game. I want every accessible at lvl 1 and equally balanced so i can choose any build I want and be successful just like everyone else. It offers more diversity and certainly more balance.
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Also keep in mind that we have no idea what those skills actually are. They might be something like complete invulnerability for 5 seconds. They can't exactly put that on a 15 second cooldown.
agreed but then we shouldn't have something like that in the game. I want every accessible at lvl 1 and equally balanced so i can choose any build I want and be successful just like everyone else. It offers more diversity and certainly more balance.
What?
Why can you not have a spell that needs a cooldown in a game? A spell like the one described above is perfectly viable for a Diablo game.
I think of COURSE we're going to have cooldowns. If you have powerful skills and actually want a balanced game, those skills have to be on cooldown. Otherwise everyone will min-max for the most powerful skill and spam it.
This is my issue. I want locust swarm to be as powerful as WD's level 7 skill, and I want freedom in how I spec. Not be forced to min-max for the most powerful skill (cooldown or not), there should be NO most powerful skills.
I understand your point of view. I personally disagree though. And I don't think cooldowns = horrible game design. Stating that anything other than your opinion is not only bad, but bad design, just isn't very convincing.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Ent1ty how do you know that spells don't scale? Are you saying that locust swarm is going to be the only spell that will not have a damage modifier? As long as spells and abilities are based on gear and level they can scale, that is something that we will likely see pass over from WoW. Also the reason players are given level limits to spells is two fold, 1st it helps direct you how you character works, 2nd it keeps you from using meteor strike a lvl 1. Your player is suppose to progress if you can just pick all the best spells from the beginning then you might as well nit have a leveling system.
Hey guys im just wondering what do you guys think about Skills with Cooldowns in PvE.
In my opinion CDs just dont fit in the Diablo play stile, also i think that 2 min CD is way too long for Diablo Skills, i cant see myself waiting 2 min for a VERY COOL skill to recharge,cool skills should be able to be cast often and i just keep forgetting to use spells with more than 30 sec CD, so what is teh point of having CD.
I just think if they want to fix a skill usage, like to fix the Teleport skill from Diablo 2, they should just increase the amount of resource spent to be able to use certain skill.
Well.....
Maybe im too damn sick of WoW and all those ^%$^%$ CDs.
D2, at first, didn't had cooldowns either, imagine 8 sorcs with fast cast gear spamming infinite forbs.
The game NEEDS cooldowns, period, but i agree on the 2 minute thing, thats bs.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
I also dont see the big deal with cooldowns, they have existed for a while in multiple rpg games. Im only glad they didn't add "casting time" that would really irk yall.
As for a 2 minute cooldown, Im quite confident you will understand why its that long, once you see the skill in action. They are not putting a 2 minute cooldown on "flare" or some crap skill. They are putting it on a truly epic, destructive, colorful, legendary-like skill. Its supposed to be your "Ace in the hole" its going to "knock their socks off" its your "last stand strike" the "knock-out punch" your "ultimate weapon" it is supposed to change the tide of battle!
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Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
There's still people around who think the skills aren't going to be balanced?
get with the times people,
I like your idea of all skills unlocked at level 1, but its not going to happen
but that doesn't mean the skills aren't balanced, that skill you get at level 1 will still be viable in the end game, and will be balanced even with the level 26 skills etc.
Your already forgetting all of the things that effect skills, and i cant believe i have to explain this, and yes, im not capitalizing my i's because im trying to type fast
those things are:
* Items, items will effect skill damage, especially for melee users
* traits, a lot of traits effect skills buy something insane like 300%, you really think that level 1 skill is going to be useless with bonuses like that?
* skill runes, effecting skills in ways we still dont even know
* Curve, ya that level 26 skill at level 1 might be better than the level 1 skill at level 1 ( did i confuse you yet?) but it could have a completely different damage curve per level ,and maxed will still be balanced
* Tactical uses, ie single target AOE, buffs, mana/resource regen,especially with unknown rune effects. special damage type etc
Sure maybe we get the big boomy ones that nuke the entire screen with slow cooldown later on, but thats for the better, if you started off with that that's the only skill you'd have and you would be SOL while waiting for the cooldown
the level 1 skills are still viable because they probably cast faster XD
and the cooldown is part of the balance, I just think 2 minutes is overkill.
so in short, all skills will be balanced and viable, and 2 minutes is too long of a cool down.
There's still people around who think the skills aren't going to be balanced?
get with the times people,
I like your idea of all skills unlocked at level 1, but its not going to happen
but that doesn't mean the skills aren't balanced, that skill you get at level 1 will still be viable in the end game, and will be balanced even with the level 26 skills etc.
Your already forgetting all of the things that effect skills, and i cant believe i have to explain this, and yes, im not capitalizing my i's because im trying to type fast
those things are:
* Items, items will effect skill damage, especially for melee users
* traits, a lot of traits effect skills buy something insane like 300%, you really think that level 1 skill is going to be useless with bonuses like that?
* skill runes, effecting skills in ways we still dont even know
* Curve, ya that level 26 skill at level 1 might be better than the level 1 skill at level 1 ( did i confuse you yet?) but it could have a completely different damage curve per level ,and maxed will still be balanced
* Tactical uses, ie single target AOE, buffs, mana/resource regen,especially with unknown rune effects. special damage type etc
Sure maybe we get the big boomy ones that nuke the entire screen with slow cooldown later on, but thats for the better, if you started off with that that's the only skill you'd have and you would be SOL while waiting for the cooldown
the level 1 skills are still viable because they probably cast faster XD
and the cooldown is part of the balance, I just think 2 minutes is overkill.
so in short, all skills will be balanced and viable, and 2 minutes is too long of a cool down.
Except you forget the fact that those buffs will buff the better skills as well essentially keeping locust swarm with less damage than the tier 6 skills which is a load of crap. I wanna be doing K's with Locust swarm and ray of frost, and I understand that all these things will boost the power, but if its gonna generally boost all my spell power then it still isn't as viable as say pit of fire or hydra. I also understand that my theory will never happen unless people realize that all they'd have to do is balance spells and play styles and the game would be 100 times better which no one wants, because in the end you either a won't see those K's of damage or B will see them too early. The only good point you brought up is the tactical uses of each skill. Sure you have all these different types of spells, DoT AoE single Target buffs, but if i want to mainly use locust swarm or ray of frost i should be able to do so without having to suffer from doing less damage then that tier 6 skill.
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I mean, if it's strong enough, it probably needs a longer cooldown. I would think that this also encourages players to use other skills then just one really strong skill that they can wait 10-15 seconds to use. Otherwise it's every spell basically does the same amount of damage.
Except you forget the fact that those buffs will buff the better skills as well essentially keeping locust swarm with less damage than the tier 6 skills which is a load of crap. I wanna be doing K's with Locust swarm and ray of frost, and I understand that all these things will boost the power, but if its gonna generally boost all my spell power then it still isn't as viable as say pit of fire or hydra. I also understand that my theory will never happen unless people realize that all they'd have to do is balance spells and play styles and the game would be 100 times better which no one wants, because in the end you either a won't see those K's of damage or B will see them too early. The only good point you brought up is the tactical uses of each skill. Sure you have all these different types of spells, DoT AoE single Target buffs, but if i want to mainly use locust swarm or ray of frost i should be able to do so without having to suffer from doing less damage then that tier 6 skill.
But what YOU forgot is what arsonal3 said, that locust swarm could scale completely different than higher tier skills. A lvl 10 locust swarm could scale up to the same amount of damage as a lvl 10 Pit of Fire, we don't know. I personally hope that it doesn't, though. I hope that while Pit of Fire may do a little more damage, Locust swarm spreads faster and farther. That way they are both usable, they fill different needs at different times, but they are not just the same spells with different animations.
The fact is is that no one who isn't a developer really knows how each skill works and we won't until the beta. Everything is just speculation. Once the beta starts we will have a far better view of how the cooldowns effect play, and how each skill is balanced. Til then there is really no reason to get upset.
Oh, and btw, having every skill available at lvl 1 would be ridiculous. That would be like having every weapon in the game available for purchase from the NPCs of Act 1. There would be nothing to look forward to. You should be striving to lvl up so you can unlock that next skill. If all that happens when you lvled up was that you did more damage, that would be pretty lame.
This, I believe, is the logical thing to be worried about when it comes to cooldowns in Diablo.
Will it feel natural with something taking that long to CD? Will the skill even be viable if it takes that long to CD? Will it even be useful in regular combat since it takes so long to CD?
Those are all questions I can understand. I consider them concerns as well and think they could impact the game negatively when it comes out.
The whole "it's a terrible balancing technique" thing makes no sense to me though. CDs have been around a while and can be very effective. I don't know how effective they can be when set at two minutes in a Diablo style game though.
To me, in a real time action-roleplaying game like Diablo, time is as much a resource as health or mana/magic/spirit. Learning to manage your "time" is extremely important, that's even true in most MOBA's (LoL, HoN, DotA - who imho were born out of this genre of game). Having some skills be limited by this resource isn't that bad.
It's also not like 10 minute or 60 minute WoW-style cooldowns, it's 2 minutes. It means you can probably use it dozens of times in a normal 30 minute dungeon, you just have to choose the best situations for it instead of just spamming it.
If you played D2 in any serious level, you should probably know that it was a 1-skill-spamfest. Some classes sometimes used more than this, but it was usually that one skill spammed over and over again. Bone Spirit? Hammerdin? D2 was almost not fun in the end-game, but getting there was so nice and the end-game loot was so elusive that people would often forget it and just enjoy the ride.
If cooldowns make the top-tier skills feel more powerful by all means I love it.
Then why not just make every skill accessible at level 1 instead. That's true diversity right there. Having them do balanced damage with one another while choosing different paths is more rewarding then just using shitty spells in the meantime for a cool downed spell. I agree i love doing insane damage but to be fair it should be balanced. In making all skills accessible at lvl 1 you allow each player to define themselves the way they want allowing the game to have the customization it deserves to have. I don't want any cookie cutter build that says oh these skills complement this high end skill the best so lets all get these. And to everyone's point saying ridiculous costs of resources is horrible, it really is not. I'm not saying take away the whole globe, im saying take a large significant chunk so you can't use it more than once, while leaving some left for other skills. this works perfectly with wizards and Dh's at least im not sure how WD's mana refills so i'll have to look into it same with the monk resources, but fury if its like WoW were you have to charge it up by being hurt or attacking normally it will work the same as the wizard. I don't want to have built up all that arcane power or fury just to have to wait to use some ridiculously overpowered spell. I should be able to cast at my choosing when given the opportunity. I'm not saying spammable but more often then just 2 minutes, because honestly if it's like this then i'm probably not gunna get any tier 7 skills and just opt for better skills that can be used in conjunction with traits to give them equal damage. Their reasoning is honestly just retarded.
Oh wait here, Equinox, you can use your locust swarm at end game, who said it wasn't viable? Fom all I've read you get 7 skills, just that. If one of your skills is locust swarm then it will be at the end. That is the reason you get 7 button in the game. As long as you can have a use for it then use it. You uber WD ability won't take away your locust, just add something strategic.
I know this wasn't addressed to me but still i have to answer this one. Yeah it kinda does make it less viable. If you had locust swarm which deals 50 initial damage with an extra 10 for 10 seconds as DoT, Or Pit of fire, which may have no cd that does initial 500 damage or even parasite that deals 1k damage but has a 2 min cooldown, which do you use? obviously the tier 7 parasite and when not usable you use the other better skill that is pit of fire. Now explain how that's fair... and explores diversity, it's not and it doesn't. It denies the viability of lower tier skills during endagame. Which brings me to my point that we should be able to access all skills at level one, but again only choosing seven allows for diversity in what you want, not whats the "best" or most Op'ed
There are still going to be a lot of instant and near-instant casts in the game.
agreed but then we shouldn't have something like that in the game. I want every accessible at lvl 1 and equally balanced so i can choose any build I want and be successful just like everyone else. It offers more diversity and certainly more balance.
What?
Why can you not have a spell that needs a cooldown in a game? A spell like the one described above is perfectly viable for a Diablo game.
I understand your point of view. I personally disagree though. And I don't think cooldowns = horrible game design. Stating that anything other than your opinion is not only bad, but bad design, just isn't very convincing.
-Thomas Jefferson
D2, at first, didn't had cooldowns either, imagine 8 sorcs with fast cast gear spamming infinite forbs.
The game NEEDS cooldowns, period, but i agree on the 2 minute thing, thats bs.
As for a 2 minute cooldown, Im quite confident you will understand why its that long, once you see the skill in action. They are not putting a 2 minute cooldown on "flare" or some crap skill. They are putting it on a truly epic, destructive, colorful, legendary-like skill. Its supposed to be your "Ace in the hole" its going to "knock their socks off" its your "last stand strike" the "knock-out punch" your "ultimate weapon" it is supposed to change the tide of battle!
get with the times people,
I like your idea of all skills unlocked at level 1, but its not going to happen
but that doesn't mean the skills aren't balanced, that skill you get at level 1 will still be viable in the end game, and will be balanced even with the level 26 skills etc.
Your already forgetting all of the things that effect skills, and i cant believe i have to explain this, and yes, im not capitalizing my i's because im trying to type fast
those things are:
* Items, items will effect skill damage, especially for melee users
* traits, a lot of traits effect skills buy something insane like 300%, you really think that level 1 skill is going to be useless with bonuses like that?
* skill runes, effecting skills in ways we still dont even know
* Curve, ya that level 26 skill at level 1 might be better than the level 1 skill at level 1 ( did i confuse you yet?) but it could have a completely different damage curve per level ,and maxed will still be balanced
* Tactical uses, ie single target AOE, buffs, mana/resource regen,especially with unknown rune effects. special damage type etc
Sure maybe we get the big boomy ones that nuke the entire screen with slow cooldown later on, but thats for the better, if you started off with that that's the only skill you'd have and you would be SOL while waiting for the cooldown
the level 1 skills are still viable because they probably cast faster XD
and the cooldown is part of the balance, I just think 2 minutes is overkill.
so in short, all skills will be balanced and viable, and 2 minutes is too long of a cool down.
Except you forget the fact that those buffs will buff the better skills as well essentially keeping locust swarm with less damage than the tier 6 skills which is a load of crap. I wanna be doing K's with Locust swarm and ray of frost, and I understand that all these things will boost the power, but if its gonna generally boost all my spell power then it still isn't as viable as say pit of fire or hydra. I also understand that my theory will never happen unless people realize that all they'd have to do is balance spells and play styles and the game would be 100 times better which no one wants, because in the end you either a won't see those K's of damage or B will see them too early. The only good point you brought up is the tactical uses of each skill. Sure you have all these different types of spells, DoT AoE single Target buffs, but if i want to mainly use locust swarm or ray of frost i should be able to do so without having to suffer from doing less damage then that tier 6 skill.
But it shouldn't be so op'ed that you need a 2 min cooldown to compensate.
But what YOU forgot is what arsonal3 said, that locust swarm could scale completely different than higher tier skills. A lvl 10 locust swarm could scale up to the same amount of damage as a lvl 10 Pit of Fire, we don't know. I personally hope that it doesn't, though. I hope that while Pit of Fire may do a little more damage, Locust swarm spreads faster and farther. That way they are both usable, they fill different needs at different times, but they are not just the same spells with different animations.
The fact is is that no one who isn't a developer really knows how each skill works and we won't until the beta. Everything is just speculation. Once the beta starts we will have a far better view of how the cooldowns effect play, and how each skill is balanced. Til then there is really no reason to get upset.
Oh, and btw, having every skill available at lvl 1 would be ridiculous. That would be like having every weapon in the game available for purchase from the NPCs of Act 1. There would be nothing to look forward to. You should be striving to lvl up so you can unlock that next skill. If all that happens when you lvled up was that you did more damage, that would be pretty lame.
Why not? If there isn't a cooldown or something to prevent it being spammed, THEN it would be overpowered. The cooldown prevents that.