It's the Auction House that's killing it for most people, any item you want is readily available to buy which wasn't the point of Diablo. The point was to trade with other people to acquire better gear, not have it be ready and buy it. I will miss Diablocast because it was my number 1 podcast to watch and listen to.
You do understand that gold merely facilitates trade, herf derf, just like real currencies do for the world. It makes an economy efficient. So what you are complaining about is economic efficiency. As for the RMAH, I think thats BS, but guess what, I just dont use it. No problem as the gold house has plenty of items on it still.
Case and point, I found these shoulders that I didndt need but they sold for 20m gold, well, I used that gold to get a high DPS bow... wait I think I just made some sort of trade... not sure though.
One problem with this idea is that the AH makes it so much easier to trade, that it's possible for the average person to "trade" up to the best item without ever getting a worthwhile drop. In D2, you either need an awesome drop, or to put together an awesome string of trade ups. Both of which was outside of most people.
In other words, it lowered the barrier of trading so much, that it became almost trivial. This has good aspects (I can use it with out having to find that one person who needs my mediocre upgrade for a wizard, and has a mediocre upgrade for my WD). But there are downsides, such as people actually get the gear so much faster that they clear content before they "should" and the game seems shorter. Or they get gear before they "should" and the game seems to easy. But elitests also use it to complain. Just like they do anytime an annoyance gets removed in such a way that it looks like it is casualizing the game (so many people where upset that WC3 had auto-casts, or that SC2 workers would auto split among minerals).
Let be honest here, Force was also being cautious in saying that "It feels like, its not necessary, but it feels like" the AH is needed. Its absolutly is needed for most people. Force was being safe to save flames from trolls, but I'll say it for him, the AH is for most people necessary to advance. It would take too long and be way too boaring to build yourself an A3/4 set of gear all by youself. Im sure people have done it, but Im sure more people would rather see day light again this year.
The fact is that the AH and the money that Blizzard saw they could make from it has ruined the game for the majority of people who play. Like Force said, we all knew people bought gold and blackmarket items, but it wasnt something at was coded for into the game. Now, the drops are effected by the AH. The drops are so low on purpose to force you towards the AH. Its central to the experience and has ruined it.
I bold the part that makes your statement incorrect. It makes the AH a convenience, not a requirement. I'd be crazy bored with out my main hobby of video games, but that doesn't make them a requirement, now does it?
Put it another way - is driving to the movie theater a necessity when you can take the bus? It only became a "necessity" because people are impatient. Nothing in the game will stop working if you don't beat Inferno in time. Yes, it will take a LONG time, but it's possible. In fact, Kripp got most of the way through Inferno on a barbarian without the AH, RMAH, or getting gear donated.
Oh, and the drops are NOT affected by the AH. This is just BS that has been spread around, only backed up by anecdotal evidence. This is OT, so I won't bother going on about it. But unless you can come up with hard evidence, then please stop gabbing on about that.
Anyway, what this comes down to is that Blizzard gave people a shortcut, because they wanted it (if you used the AH or RMAH, you wanted it). It turns out that what you really had was a shortcut to not playing the game (because the only point to leveling up is to get more gear, and the only point of getting more gear is to kill monsters faster to get you more gear).
This is absolutely where my mind went. Oh, crap, is it that timeout error again where if you quit the process in task manager the server still thinks you're logged in and you get locked out?
It's the Auction House that's killing it for most people, any item you want is readily available to buy which wasn't the point of Diablo. The point was to trade with other people to acquire better gear, not have it be ready and buy it. I will miss Diablocast because it was my number 1 podcast to watch and listen to.
what in the hell does the ah have to do with anything?? buying items was still availble in d2 via 3rd party sites and ALOT of ppl used said sites. all the ah does is make it safer for you to do what was already being done 10 years ago.
I've made $375 off Diablo 3 so far. Does that mean the game is fun? No, but it does mean I've made some cash from a video game!
In all seriousness, here are my sincere thoughts about the RMAH and it's implications on the game (taken directly from Penny Arcade):
So, as those who have mostly left the bulding already, Diablo 3’s Real Money Auction House is double mysterious and we don’t know what it’s for. Well, okay: we know know. The “moneys.” What I’m saying is that getting new shit actually is the game. For us, anyway. Getting and, crucially, equipping new loot. The whole AH thing short-circuits the entire idea: the game is, functionally speaking, a pinata. Right? Obviously, you could just go buy candy at the store. It’s not about having candy. It’s about getting candy.
Source (I still can't post urls...): penny-arcade.com/2012/06/27
He actually explained pretty well what happens to a lot of people.
Once you realize that it's more efficient to buy the items you want rather than farm for them (this applies to SC only) the game feels pointless. This affects people who actually have money to spend more than those who are totally broke.
This problem will grow considerably as items become cheaper on the RMAH.
Once you realize that it's (personally) more rational for you to buy the item you want rather than spend 8 hours grinding for it, there's no point in playing the game really.
People don't seem to understand that even though it's a choice, people are naturally drawn to the most rational decision. Someone like Force has enough money that it makes sense for him to buy a few items off the AH rather than farm endlessly for inferior items.
That's the instant where the game becomes pointless, because it makes more sense (based on your income, etc) for you to earn more real money to buy items than it does for you to spend time farming in the game.
Essentially, you'll get better items by NOT playing the game than you will by playing it.
The AHs have really hurt D3. However, things have improved recently because of the nerfs to gold farming. Gold Find is actually pretty bad now. It doesn't make more sense to farm gold than items, which is a positive change Blizzard has made.
Still though, the RMAH is the real problem. When the prices drop significantly over the next few months, the game is going to have a lot of trouble holding SC player's interest.
I've made $375 off Diablo 3 so far. Does that mean the game is fun? No, but it does mean I've made some cash from a video game!
In all seriousness, here are my sincere thoughts about the RMAH and it's implications on the game (taken directly from Penny Arcade):
So, as those who have mostly left the bulding already, Diablo 3’s Real Money Auction House is double mysterious and we don’t know what it’s for. Well, okay: we know know. The “moneys.” What I’m saying is that getting new shit actually is the game. For us, anyway. Getting and, crucially, equipping new loot. The whole AH thing short-circuits the entire idea: the game is, functionally speaking, a pinata. Right? Obviously, you could just go buy candy at the store. It’s not about having candy. It’s about getting candy.
Source (I still can't post urls...): penny-arcade.com/2012/06/27
Normally I'm right on board with the PA guys, but I think this one really misses the mark. Even their analogy fails. If I want candy, maybe I'll go to the store... but sometimes I prefer to make my own (yes, I have a sugar thermometer). If I want to get some, I don't have to buy it... and it's more fun to make my own (and, usually, has a better result... but that's off-topic ).
Buying gear was possible but optional in D2, and is still possible but optional in D3. The question was never "RMAH or no RMAH", it was "Blizzard RMAH or 3rd-party RMAH".
It's the Auction House that's killing it for most people, any item you want is readily available to buy which wasn't the point of Diablo. The point was to trade with other people to acquire better gear, not have it be ready and buy it. I will miss Diablocast because it was my number 1 podcast to watch and listen to.
what in the hell does the ah have to do with anything?? buying items was still availble in d2 via 3rd party sites and ALOT of ppl used said sites. all the ah does is make it safer for you to do what was already being done 10 years ago.
It has lots to do with everything, what kept MY interest in Diablo 2 for so long was trying to find those rare things people wanted or myself and trading and saving said items to get better gear that I wanted, I didn't use 3rd party sites and I never wanted to. It's hard to trade in this game when people just sell the stuff for real money or gold. As I said before, the Auction House makes anything and everything readily available. Trading and trying to farm items to do said trades did not.
Purchasing from a 3rd party in D2 is not the same as using the RMAH in D3. This is especially true when Blizzard does something to discourage buying items. The bottom line is that most people who played D2 did not use 3rd party sites to buy items because it wasn't rolled into the actual game. Most people assumed there was some degree of risk involved when dealing with 3rd party sites, there's 0 risk involved with the RMAH.
The same idea could be said about something like botting in D3. There are bots out there (not suggesting you use them) you could use to get gold faster, but do most people use bots? No. What if you could buy a bot off the RMAH? The game would be a total joke.
The ease of which you can access something is really important, and whether Blizzard does anything to stop it is important as well.
He actually explained pretty well what happens to a lot of people.
Once you realize that it's more efficient to buy the items you want rather than farm for them (this applies to SC only) the game feels pointless. This affects people who actually have money to spend more than those who are totally broke.
This problem will grow considerably as items become cheaper on the RMAH.
Once you realize that it's (personally) more rational for you to buy the item you want rather than spend 8 hours grinding for it, there's no point in playing the game really.
People don't seem to understand that even though it's a choice, people are naturally drawn to the most rational decision. Someone like Force has enough money that it makes sense for him to buy a few items off the AH rather than farm endlessly for inferior items.
That's the instant where the game becomes pointless, because it makes more sense (based on your income, etc) for you to earn more real money to buy items than it does for you to spend time farming in the game.
Essentially, you'll get better items by NOT playing the game than you will by playing it.
The AHs have really hurt D3. However, things have improved recently because of the nerfs to gold farming. Gold Find is actually pretty bad now. It doesn't make more sense to farm gold than items, which is a positive change Blizzard has made.
Still though, the RMAH is the real problem. When the prices drop significantly over the next few months, the game is going to have a lot of trouble holding SC player's interest.
Please don't take offense to this, but D2 had item and gold-selling services supplied by 3rd parties. The assertion that the RMAH has "killed" the game is stupid and absolutely ridiculous. The people who use the RMAH, buy all the best items, then wonder why the game lasted them far less time than it's lasted other people brought it upon themselves. Everyone who bought the best of the best off the RMAH knew full well that there wasn't more to the game than the item hunt, especially at this point. Blizzard was very clear that the game wasn't shipping with PvP.
Yeah again, third party sites are not the same as the RMAH. That's not a good argument.
When something becomes sanctioned like the RMAH is, more people use it. And it's officially part of the game. It's not the same as buying item illegitimately.
You know, if 75% of the people who played D3 and quit and went back to D2 I bet they would drastically change D3 somehow but maybe that's my wishful thinking.
you know how many people have been using the rmah? i must have missed where blizzard released the figures on that. if the rmah is killing d3 then that means everyone is buying from the rmah, right?
Yeah again, third party sites are not the same as the RMAH. That's not a good argument.
When something becomes sanctioned like the RMAH is, more people use it. And it's officially part of the game. It's not the same as buying item illegitimately.
I assume you have actual datum that would show that a higher percentage of people are using the RMAH than were using D2JSP...
Otherwise, why would you present that as fact?
EDIT
If you can actually prove that a higher percentage of people are using the RMAH than D2JSP (et. al.) then I'll gladly say you're right. But simply assuming that because it's "sanctioned" that more people are automatically doing it doesn't really make that fact.
Nor does it change the fact that anyone who buys the best items off the RMAH is purposefully destroying their gaming experience.
I don't know who you're talking about because I can't view vids here at work but I assume it's Athene or Kripp or whatever their names are. They apparently play games purely for the launch hype and finishing them as quickly as possible, so it is 100% predictable that they would quit shortly after release. They got what they wanted right? I assume. Seems like a crap way to play games to me.
*EDIT*
Oh the guy's name was actually Force. Never heard of him. Where do you people even read about this stuff?
2) once you buy gear off it, what's left to do with that gear? I haven't used it but I beat Inferno a few weeks ago and really don't see a point to continue playing. Idk, what do you guys think about this whole thing and the current state of endgame?
Here's a thought: if you want there to be things left to do in the game don't buy gear off the AH that basically means you've finished the game. It's your own damn fault.
People who are still playing Diablo 3 are mostly lying themselves. Some are pretending that they are having fun and the other half is playing to earn money on RMAH (such is me).
Quit trying to put words in my mouth. Quit it right now. I'm still having tons of fun when I actually have time to play. I didn't rush for Inferno Diablo, hell, I'm still in Nightmare with the characters that I'm levelling at an enjoyable pace instead of embracing the "OMG MUST BEAT EVERYTHING NOW!" mentality that's taken over too much of gaming.
Speak for yourself, and don't take these and the D3 forums as the voice of everyone playing. Unhappy people are always louder than the happy people.
That is the point though; D2 was made specifically for the hardcore grinders. Diablo 3 was made for you and those who share the same casualness. That is why you have such things like non-permanent characters, an official auction house (with the use of real money too), no skill points, no progression at the end game. Dude, to be honest, and I've seen it myself for quite a few players, you will more than likely not want to play the game after you beat Nightmare. There is absolutely nothing different but more affixes (no new affixes, just an additional 1 added to elites), and better loot. You can use the skills you used in nightmare in inferno and still be completely fine for the most part. The game is so gear dependent that a level 5 with whites could kick your level 60 ass if you were wearing no gear. There isn't any sort of permanent, unique power that you had with D2. While D2 was also gear dependent, there was such a HUGE gap from a level 1 to 99.
You know, if 75% of the people who played D3 and quit and went back to D2 I bet they would drastically change D3 somehow but maybe that's my wishful thinking.
LOL, they'd vomit in horror at how primitive, awkward and restrictive that game was. Not to mention how easymode and completely destroyed by bots it is.
I played it for years and loved it but come on, serious rose tinted glasses there buddy.
we don't know what blizzard knows, obviously. the last article i read about spending money on games was related to farmville. ten percent of their players spend money and only one percent account for almost half their revenue.
that may not be what d3 does, we don't know. but, i would be shocked if it was much higher than that. maybe 10-20% have spent 5 or 10 bucks of money they actually deposited...not counting whatever they earned from selling that went into blizzard bucks. i imagine a very small number of people have spent hundreds of their money.
unless blizzard comes out and says that their entire player base has used the rmah, i'd have a hard time believing the rmah has ruined anything about the game. it was only a few weeks ago that blizzard reported only 1.9% of players (accounts?) even had a character in inferno. most of the bitching people do on forums is because of their experience with inferno and getting upgrades there.
as usual, a very small portion of the player base is doing most of the bitching on forums. same thing with WoW. i have two character in inferno, but i play more than most people. my real life friend that also plays games is more casual. she doesn't even have a character in hell yet because she's trying all the classes and taking her time while still taking care of real life responsibilities. i imagine the vast majority of d3 owners are closer to her than me.
they don't get burned out and quit because they didn't spend 100+ hours playing d3 the first week it came out like i'm guessing a lot of people on this forum did. if you add up the hours that Force played d3 beta, d3 release, and making videos or doing podcasts about d3...how many hours do you think that would be? 1,000? 3,000? it's a shit ton i'm sure. i'm guessing it doesn't matter how good a game is. if you spend that kind of time on it you're gonna have a problem.
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One problem with this idea is that the AH makes it so much easier to trade, that it's possible for the average person to "trade" up to the best item without ever getting a worthwhile drop. In D2, you either need an awesome drop, or to put together an awesome string of trade ups. Both of which was outside of most people.
In other words, it lowered the barrier of trading so much, that it became almost trivial. This has good aspects (I can use it with out having to find that one person who needs my mediocre upgrade for a wizard, and has a mediocre upgrade for my WD). But there are downsides, such as people actually get the gear so much faster that they clear content before they "should" and the game seems shorter. Or they get gear before they "should" and the game seems to easy. But elitests also use it to complain. Just like they do anytime an annoyance gets removed in such a way that it looks like it is casualizing the game (so many people where upset that WC3 had auto-casts, or that SC2 workers would auto split among minerals).
I bold the part that makes your statement incorrect. It makes the AH a convenience, not a requirement. I'd be crazy bored with out my main hobby of video games, but that doesn't make them a requirement, now does it?
Put it another way - is driving to the movie theater a necessity when you can take the bus? It only became a "necessity" because people are impatient. Nothing in the game will stop working if you don't beat Inferno in time. Yes, it will take a LONG time, but it's possible. In fact, Kripp got most of the way through Inferno on a barbarian without the AH, RMAH, or getting gear donated.
Oh, and the drops are NOT affected by the AH. This is just BS that has been spread around, only backed up by anecdotal evidence. This is OT, so I won't bother going on about it. But unless you can come up with hard evidence, then please stop gabbing on about that.
Anyway, what this comes down to is that Blizzard gave people a shortcut, because they wanted it (if you used the AH or RMAH, you wanted it). It turns out that what you really had was a shortcut to not playing the game (because the only point to leveling up is to get more gear, and the only point of getting more gear is to kill monsters faster to get you more gear).
I laughed
This is absolutely where my mind went. Oh, crap, is it that timeout error again where if you quit the process in task manager the server still thinks you're logged in and you get locked out?
what in the hell does the ah have to do with anything?? buying items was still availble in d2 via 3rd party sites and ALOT of ppl used said sites. all the ah does is make it safer for you to do what was already being done 10 years ago.
In all seriousness, here are my sincere thoughts about the RMAH and it's implications on the game (taken directly from Penny Arcade):
Source (I still can't post urls...): penny-arcade.com/2012/06/27
Once you realize that it's more efficient to buy the items you want rather than farm for them (this applies to SC only) the game feels pointless. This affects people who actually have money to spend more than those who are totally broke.
This problem will grow considerably as items become cheaper on the RMAH.
Once you realize that it's (personally) more rational for you to buy the item you want rather than spend 8 hours grinding for it, there's no point in playing the game really.
People don't seem to understand that even though it's a choice, people are naturally drawn to the most rational decision. Someone like Force has enough money that it makes sense for him to buy a few items off the AH rather than farm endlessly for inferior items.
That's the instant where the game becomes pointless, because it makes more sense (based on your income, etc) for you to earn more real money to buy items than it does for you to spend time farming in the game.
Essentially, you'll get better items by NOT playing the game than you will by playing it.
The AHs have really hurt D3. However, things have improved recently because of the nerfs to gold farming. Gold Find is actually pretty bad now. It doesn't make more sense to farm gold than items, which is a positive change Blizzard has made.
Still though, the RMAH is the real problem. When the prices drop significantly over the next few months, the game is going to have a lot of trouble holding SC player's interest.
Normally I'm right on board with the PA guys, but I think this one really misses the mark. Even their analogy fails. If I want candy, maybe I'll go to the store... but sometimes I prefer to make my own (yes, I have a sugar thermometer). If I want to get some, I don't have to buy it... and it's more fun to make my own (and, usually, has a better result... but that's off-topic ).
Buying gear was possible but optional in D2, and is still possible but optional in D3. The question was never "RMAH or no RMAH", it was "Blizzard RMAH or 3rd-party RMAH".
It has lots to do with everything, what kept MY interest in Diablo 2 for so long was trying to find those rare things people wanted or myself and trading and saving said items to get better gear that I wanted, I didn't use 3rd party sites and I never wanted to. It's hard to trade in this game when people just sell the stuff for real money or gold. As I said before, the Auction House makes anything and everything readily available. Trading and trying to farm items to do said trades did not.
The same idea could be said about something like botting in D3. There are bots out there (not suggesting you use them) you could use to get gold faster, but do most people use bots? No. What if you could buy a bot off the RMAH? The game would be a total joke.
The ease of which you can access something is really important, and whether Blizzard does anything to stop it is important as well.
Please don't take offense to this, but D2 had item and gold-selling services supplied by 3rd parties. The assertion that the RMAH has "killed" the game is stupid and absolutely ridiculous. The people who use the RMAH, buy all the best items, then wonder why the game lasted them far less time than it's lasted other people brought it upon themselves. Everyone who bought the best of the best off the RMAH knew full well that there wasn't more to the game than the item hunt, especially at this point. Blizzard was very clear that the game wasn't shipping with PvP.
Being ignorant doesn't garner sympathy from me.
When something becomes sanctioned like the RMAH is, more people use it. And it's officially part of the game. It's not the same as buying item illegitimately.
I assume you have actual datum that would show that a higher percentage of people are using the RMAH than were using D2JSP...
Otherwise, why would you present that as fact?
EDIT
If you can actually prove that a higher percentage of people are using the RMAH than D2JSP (et. al.) then I'll gladly say you're right. But simply assuming that because it's "sanctioned" that more people are automatically doing it doesn't really make that fact.
Nor does it change the fact that anyone who buys the best items off the RMAH is purposefully destroying their gaming experience.
*EDIT*
Oh the guy's name was actually Force. Never heard of him. Where do you people even read about this stuff?
Nope. It's icing on the cake is all. Diablo 2 had the same structure minus the RMAH.
Here's a thought: if you want there to be things left to do in the game don't buy gear off the AH that basically means you've finished the game. It's your own damn fault.
That is the point though; D2 was made specifically for the hardcore grinders. Diablo 3 was made for you and those who share the same casualness. That is why you have such things like non-permanent characters, an official auction house (with the use of real money too), no skill points, no progression at the end game. Dude, to be honest, and I've seen it myself for quite a few players, you will more than likely not want to play the game after you beat Nightmare. There is absolutely nothing different but more affixes (no new affixes, just an additional 1 added to elites), and better loot. You can use the skills you used in nightmare in inferno and still be completely fine for the most part. The game is so gear dependent that a level 5 with whites could kick your level 60 ass if you were wearing no gear. There isn't any sort of permanent, unique power that you had with D2. While D2 was also gear dependent, there was such a HUGE gap from a level 1 to 99.
LOL, they'd vomit in horror at how primitive, awkward and restrictive that game was. Not to mention how easymode and completely destroyed by bots it is.
I played it for years and loved it but come on, serious rose tinted glasses there buddy.
that may not be what d3 does, we don't know. but, i would be shocked if it was much higher than that. maybe 10-20% have spent 5 or 10 bucks of money they actually deposited...not counting whatever they earned from selling that went into blizzard bucks. i imagine a very small number of people have spent hundreds of their money.
unless blizzard comes out and says that their entire player base has used the rmah, i'd have a hard time believing the rmah has ruined anything about the game. it was only a few weeks ago that blizzard reported only 1.9% of players (accounts?) even had a character in inferno. most of the bitching people do on forums is because of their experience with inferno and getting upgrades there.
as usual, a very small portion of the player base is doing most of the bitching on forums. same thing with WoW. i have two character in inferno, but i play more than most people. my real life friend that also plays games is more casual. she doesn't even have a character in hell yet because she's trying all the classes and taking her time while still taking care of real life responsibilities. i imagine the vast majority of d3 owners are closer to her than me.
they don't get burned out and quit because they didn't spend 100+ hours playing d3 the first week it came out like i'm guessing a lot of people on this forum did. if you add up the hours that Force played d3 beta, d3 release, and making videos or doing podcasts about d3...how many hours do you think that would be? 1,000? 3,000? it's a shit ton i'm sure. i'm guessing it doesn't matter how good a game is. if you spend that kind of time on it you're gonna have a problem.